Hagler vs. Ward at 168lbs

[walshb]

Who wins?

Andre Ward is without doubt a talent. Neat boxer, tough, takes a good shot, great tactical fighter, good on the inside, fast, lovely feet and can fight and box. His stamina is very good too. Now, over 12 rds who wins this? I think Ward's speed, skills, and overall talent cause Hagler big problems. Also, he is that little bit bigger too. Plus, he is very slippy and elusive when he needs to be.

I may go with Ward on points here. I don't see anywhere where Hagler can exploit this guy to win.

[Overhand_Right]

How to sum up Walsh's entire body of work and his thoughts on everything boxing related in one sentence:

"Fighter A is bigger than Fighter B, therefore Fighter A wins"

[walshb]

How to sum up Walsh's entire body of work and his thoughts on everything boxing related in one sentence:

"Fighter A is bigger than Fighter B, therefore Fighter A wins"

You are so predictable. You add nothing, no reasons, back up, or plan. And, how did you get from my post, where I gave reasons, that view?

And, why are you always out for an argument?

Plus, I would back Hagler to eat up Dirrell, Froch, Kessler, Green, Taylor, AA, and anyone else in the super 6, who all happen to be that bit bigger than Hagler. So, I guess that sort of blows your view out of the water

[walshb]

Tyson KO 2 Hagler. Now, that is down to size alright!

[SageBrush]

Marvin i am sure could accommodate a few extra pounds without let or hindrance, such a chiselled specimen was he in his prime, and indeed beyond, also no disrespect to the talented ward, something tells me he would not afford ward an ounce of the respect he bestowed on Duran, or indeed Puncher Sibson in the Early rounds, In ward he faces someone he can not allow the luxury of "on the job " assessment time, Ward will get that between rounds, Hagler must seek to make his strategy impacts before ward gets to that minutes sanctuary of "Fort Reassessment", Marvin i feel will not therefore seek to "match" wits, or "Ëxchange" skills with ward, he would seek to dominate from the off, of course, with someone of Wards Talent and Skills, Marvin would know that the imposition of Himself on ward will take time, he might be second best initially, he may be only on a level footing come the half way stage, but its what happens in the second half which i think would swing it Marvins way, the Marvin who went after Minter, Obel, and yes Hearns, i feel will force Andre to put 9 rounds of energial eggs into a six rounds basket, unhindered by concerns about Wards ability to inflict damage, Marvins pace, in vending his educated aggression, would i feel take away wards ability to construct stratagems and Ruses, being too concerned in avoiding bruises. and Mavins intended heavy-duty deciders, In short Andre is put on the defensive to such an extent, in the last three rounds, that his focus is more lasting the course...then changing the course....Marvins fittness, skills in aggression, and ability to maintain carries the day, not by a large margin perhaps due to Wards early fight successes, but clear enough for no disputes. Marvin on points.

[walshb]

That's a great reply, Sage. At least you gave reasons why you feel Marvin wins. I think it's mighty close. If Marvin is in any way cautious or patient, he loses this fight. He needs to be the aggressor and needs to force the pace all night. Thing is, Ward is tough, fit and cute, plus he sure can fight, inside and outside. Very neat and slippy to. A more complete boxer than Hagler. The guys has serious pedigree. Ward is also very rugged and physically he is every bit as strong as Hagler. We know Hagler has a chin, but Ward too looks pretty solid there too.

[Overhand_Right]

"Andre Ward a more complete boxer than Marvin Hagler"......

[walshb]

"Andre Ward a more complete boxer than Marvin Hagler"......

I know what I wrote. No need to reprint it. You are so stuck in the past that even when a genuine skilled and great talent comes along you cannot see it. BTW, you do know that Ward was an Olympic champion too? His pedigree is top notch. Yes, as a boxer, I think he was more complete.

Anyway, wasted on you, as you are incapable of a structured and insightful post. It's always the same, read a post, and then ineffectively try to mock the post/poster.

[hagler04]

Hagler on aggression and harder punches landed in an UGLY fight.

[SageBrush]

Walshb - Thank you kind sir ! - My feeling - Short Version, is that Ward would be looking for a cerebral "Boxing Match" and instead gets an "Instinctual War" !
- But do agree, would probably be close, (Andre Thankful its not over 15 !!)

Regards Sage

[walshb]

Walshb - Thank you kind sir ! - My feeling - Short Version, is that Ward would be looking for a cerebral "Boxing Match" and instead gets an "Instinctual War" !
- But do agree, would probably be close, (Andre Thankful its not over 15 !!)

Regards Sage

Hi, Sage. As regards 15, well, if Andre had to prepare for 15 I am sure he could. Over 12 or 15 I shade it to Ward in a close fight.

[JLP 6]

"Andre Ward a more complete boxer than Marvin Hagler"......

Uhh...walsh? Did you really mean that? Ward a more complete boxer that Hagler?

Hagler, the southpaw with one of the greatest jabs I ever saw. Switching to orthodox. One could make an arguement that Hagler is both the greatest southpaw and greatest switch hitter in boxing history. I watched him pre-title take Briscoe apart like Matador. The second Antuofermo fight was one the best boxing displays I have ever seen. Boxed on nearly even status with Leonard and Duran.

Wow! Provocative is one thing...but Ward a better all-around fighter than the Marvelous One. Nah.

[walshb]

Wow, he's a switch hitter. Big deal. Hagler is a lovely boxer puncher. I think Ward is a more complete boxer.

Hagler when he went orthodox never looked great to me. Many say it's what may have cost him a few rds vs. SRL. And, how many great fighters didn't change their stance? Doesn't mean they are less complete. SRR was a righty all the time. I rate him more complete than Hagler.

[jlupi]

Id take hagler. I dont think ward has proved at this point he is in the same league boxer or puncher as marvin. Beating froch and kessler just is not a complete enough body of work to make the leap that he is some ATG

[walshb]

Id take hagler. I dont think ward has proved at this point he is in the same league boxer or puncher as marvin. Beating froch and kessler just is not a complete enough body of work to make the leap that he is some ATG

But isn't that a little unfair? I mean, he beats the best around. That shouldn't handicap him in a fantasy match. He was clearly the best of the lot. The guy is a talent, a very very good one, and would be so in any era.

There is little else he can do at 168. Bute would pose problems I guess. Chad Dawson is at LHW, and he too would cause issues, as he would for any SMW. Dawson is a true LHW.

[JLP 6]

Walsh...does Ward have to be a better boxer than Hagler to justify this match up? It seems to me that you are stacking the deck in favor of Ward and excepting no prisoners. Hagler has to come up to 168, then he has to face "a better boxer". Why not just come right out and say that Andre Ward in a top-ten/top-fifteen p4p fighter all-time?

There is no way in the world that Ward is a better anything than Hagler period. All he does is weight more. More of him for Hagler to beat on. Sagebrush has already put this match up in perspective. Ward has no chance to think in there with Hagler. Nothing, no haps. Hagler bangs in his head and goes home.

Haglers defense, slipping, blocking, parrying. The guy rarely got caught flush, and when he did...nothing. Movement. Hagler in his prime moved around the ring as good as any other great middleweight. Combine all this with his ability to turn on the heat to the point Hearns has to get carried out of the ring like a new born baby....Who are we talking about here? Andre Ward? No, Marvelous Marvin Hagler.


Call me when Ward has looked any where as good as Hagler did in the second Antuofermo fight. Or his title winning fight in England, or when he destroyed Hearns and Mugabi, or the last two round with Duran when he basically said "no more of this foolishness", or.....

Then End.

[walshb]

Walsh...does Ward have to be a better boxer than Hagler to justify this match up? It seems to me that you are stacking the deck in favor of Ward and excepting no prisoners. Hagler has to come up to 168, then he has to face "a better boxer". Why not just come right out and say that Andre Ward in a top-ten/top-fifteen p4p fighter all-time?

There is no way in the world that Ward is a better anything than Hagler period. All he does is weight more. More of him for Hagler to beat on. Sagebrush has already put this match up in perspective. Ward has no chance to think in there with Hagler. Nothing, no haps. Hagler bangs in his head and goes home.

.

Well, there's the problem then. You don't even think this is worthy of a match. Sage explained why he thought Hagler would win. But, he didn't dismiss the match as not worthy. He said why he thought Hagler would win, and also praised Ward as a fine boxer who would be a good match for Hagler. You are the complete opposite, in saying that Ward is not even worthy of the match. I think that's absurd. I have no issue with anyone picking Marvin. I just feel that Ward would be a very competitive match for him. I mean, the Beast Mugabi went 11 rds, and don't tell me that the Beast is as good as Ward.

[JLP 6]

Well, there's the problem then. You don't even think this is worthy of a match. Sage explained why he thought Hagler would win. But, he didn't dismiss the match as not worthy. He said why he thought Hagler would win, and also praised Ward as a fine boxer who would be a good match for Hagler. You are the complete opposite, in saying that Ward is not even worthy of the match. I think that's absurd. I have no issue with anyone picking Marvin. I just feel that Ward would be a very competitive match for him. I mean, the Beast Mugabi went 11 rds, and don't tell me that the Beast is as good as Ward.

You know...I had a whole lot of stuff just typed up to respond to this last response but I decided not to and deleted it. I like talking boxing with you and I see where this is headed if one of us doesn't take a step back. With that said my only response to your post it that I have not been convinced by you of Ward's better boxing skills than Hagler and also some of the issues that you bring up were not in the scope of my rebuttal of your "Ward and better boxer than Hagler" line. To be fair, no one could convince me that Ward's skill set matches or surpasses Hagler so that is no sleight on you.

In short...I am saying "fine". And I will move on.

Sagebrush, it was a treat to read your post on this. I think I understand why I admire your post so much. The lyricism of how you present the fighters, the context in with you envision the fight, and the story telling way in which you bring your ideas to a conclusion. Thanks for the inspiration to express my thought better and more poetic.

Ciao,
J

[walshb]

You know...I had a whole lot of stuff just typed up to respond to this last response but I decided not to and deleted it. I like talking boxing with you and I see where this is headed if one of us doesn't take a step back. With that said my only response to your post it that I have not been convinced by you of Ward's better boxing skills than Hagler and also some of the issues that you bring up were not in the scope of my rebuttal of your "Ward and better boxer than Hagler" line. To be fair, no one could convince me that Ward's skill set matches or surpasses Hagler so that is no sleight on you.

In short...I am saying "fine". And I will move on. ,
J

Where is it headed? You think Hagler wins, I don't. Where we seem to disagree is that to you Ward is not worthy of this match. I think he is, and I also believe that he is a very competitive opponent for Hagler, for reasons stated in this thread.

I remember I posted a Calzaghe-Hagler match at 168 lbs and I was met with the same sort of reaction from many. I thought that was odd.

[jlupi]

But isn't that a little unfair? I mean, he beats the best around. That shouldn't handicap him in a fantasy match. >>>>

No, I think a judgment has to be made of the level of opposition defeated. Ward simply does not have that, at least at this point in his career. Picking him to beat an ATG middle is not only premature but requires quite a bit of imagination.

[walshb]

But isn't that a little unfair? I mean, he beats the best around. That shouldn't handicap him in a fantasy match. >>>>

No, I think a judgment has to be made of the level of opposition defeated. Ward simply does not have that, at least at this point in his career. Picking him to beat an ATG middle is not only premature but requires quite a bit of imagination.

Level of opposition? Like I said, he beat the best on the planet. What else could he do? Now, this group may not impress you, but why dismiss Ward's chances against Hagler because of this? ROCKY GETS DERIDED BY SOME FOR WEAK OPPOSITION. Doesn't stop folks debating him vs Ali, and some pick Rocky too.

Well if we do this then we would never be able to match men from some eras against other eras. To try and solve it how about Ward vs. any of Hagler's opponents? I don't think any beat him. Hearns stands out as a possible winner. SRL too, but SRL beat Marvin. Duran? Ward beats a blown up Duran 10-0. Ward is bigger than Ray. Hits harder possibly, and is as slick and elusive in his own way. Ward has traits that I think can cause Marvin issues. Marvin has traits that can cause Ward issues too.

[SageBrush]

JLP 6 - you are too kind, Thank you, Quite often i used to see replies to matches like "Joe Ko's Bill" and that was it ! i thought the poster might just as well of put "Cats Like Milk.." for all the analytical feedback it provided, If i post something its just an opinion nothing more, - but think it is important to show one's line of reasoning,
Then experts like you can let me know if i have forgotten to factor in anything, - my golden rule is - accepting i could easily be wrong !
(but thankfully not prove it !)

Thanks Again
Sage

[Overhand_Right]

This thread is fucking embarrassing. This is all you have to do to be better than Marvin Hagler now? Beat some clumsy sluggers like Miranda and Froch, a guy like Abraham who had already been exposed by more than one fragile guy, and suddenyl you're sharing the same stratosphere as Hagler, Monzon, Leonard, et al? Before we've even been given the gift of hindsight? Before we've even seen how the man reacts under serious fire? It's completely ridiculous.

The only KOs Ward scores are when he sends the audience to sleep during his fights. Hagler clearly beats him in every single department, 8lbs or not. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to lay off the bottle.

[jlupi]

This thread is fucking embarrassing. This is all you have to do to be better than Marvin Hagler now? Beat some clumsy sluggers like Miranda and Froch, a guy like Abraham who had already been exposed by more than one fragile guy, and suddenyl you're sharing the same stratosphere as Hagler, Monzon, Leonard, et al? Before we've even been given the gift of hindsight? Before we've even seen how the man reacts under serious fire? It's completely ridiculous.

The only KOs Ward scores are when he sends the audience to sleep during his fights. Hagler clearly beats him in every single department, 8lbs or not. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to lay off the bottle.

looking for that facebook "like" button

[Michael Frank]

This thread is fucking embarrassing. This is all you have to do to be better than Marvin Hagler now? Beat some clumsy sluggers like Miranda and Froch, a guy like Abraham who had already been exposed by more than one fragile guy, and suddenyl you're sharing the same stratosphere as Hagler, Monzon, Leonard, et al? Before we've even been given the gift of hindsight? Before we've even seen how the man reacts under serious fire? It's completely ridiculous.

The only KOs Ward scores are when he sends the audience to sleep during his fights. Hagler clearly beats him in every single department, 8lbs or not. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to lay off the bottle. - Overhand_Right

looking for that facebook "like" button - jlupi

I am definitely with Overhand and jlupi here.

[Elwill7847]

Hagler all the way IMO. Ward is bigger, yes. But he hasnt fought the competition Hagler had. Monroe, Watts, Briscoe, Colbert, Seales,Hamsho, Antufermo,Minter, Sibson, Hearns, Leonard and Duran were all better than anyone Ward has fought.Mugabi, Obel and Roldan were also pretty good fighters.

I say Hagler is just too good and fierce for Andre, who I do think is a solid fighter.

[Overhand_Right]

So that's 8-1 Hagler then. No surprises there.

[walshb]

Hagler all the way IMO. Ward is bigger, yes. But he hasnt fought the competition Hagler had. Monroe, Watts, Briscoe, Colbert, Seales,Hamsho, Antufermo,Minter, Sibson, Hearns, Leonard and Duran were all better than anyone Ward has fought.Mugabi, Obel and Roldan were also pretty good fighters.

I say Hagler is just too good and fierce for Andre, who I do think is a solid fighter.

This is what baffles me. So what if Ward hasn't fought the same comp level as Hagler. I mentioned Rocky's comp and said that many think it was less than impressive, yet they still feel that Rocky could beat Ali. If Ali was around today and dominating, would we use this same excuse? Oh, Dempsey/Frazier all the way because Ali hasn't fought the same level as Dempsey/Frazier? I am not saying you cannot use comp level to argue, but to use it it as a primary reason, and dismiss other important factors. like the talent and skill of Ward is inaccurate. Just like if an Ali was around toda, sure you can diss the opposition, but you also have to factor in the talent of the man beating the opposition.

I am pitting Ward against Hagler. Not Ward's opponenst against Hagler, or Ward's opponents against Hagler's opponents. Duran at MW was not better than all of Ward's opponents. Duran was not anywhere near a great MW. And, I also mentioned that Ward most likely beats any Hagler foe, as Hagler beats Ward's foes.. This is Ward and his talent vs. Hagler and his talent. I think Ward can win.

[JLP 6]

Walsh don't take this the wrong way....but everyone here has given stylistic reasons as to why we think Hagler will beat Ward. And everyone basically said the same thing.

I hope no one minds that I quoted their responses to make this point. I copy and pasted right from the text.

1. JLP 6: "Haglers defense, slipping, blocking, parrying. The guy rarely got caught flush, and when he did...nothing. Movement. Hagler in his prime moved around the ring as good as any other great middleweight. Combine all this with his ability to turn on the heat to the point Hearns has to get carried out of the ring like a new born baby"

2. jlupi: "Id take hagler. I dont think ward has proved at this point he is in the same league boxer or puncher as marvin"

3. Hagler04: "Hagler on aggression and harder punches landed in an UGLY fight. "

4. Overhand right: "Hagler clearly beats him in every single department, 8lbs or not."

5. Sagebrush: "My feeling - Short Version, is that Ward would be looking for a cerebral "Boxing Match" and instead gets an "Instinctual War" !
- But do agree, would probably be close, (Andre Thankful its not over 15 !!)"

6. Elwill7847: "I say Hagler is just too good and fierce for Andre, who I do think is a solid fighter."

7. Michael Frank: "I am definitely with Overhand and jlupi here."

[walshb]

Walsh don't take this the wrong way....but everyone here has given stylistic reasons as to why we think Hagler will beat Ward. And everyone basically said the same thing.

I hope no one minds that I quoted their responses to make this point. I copy and pasted right from the text.

1. JLP 6: "Haglers defense, slipping, blocking, parrying. The guy rarely got caught flush, and when he did...nothing. Movement. Hagler in his prime moved around the ring as good as any other great middleweight. Combine all this with his ability to turn on the heat to the point Hearns has to get carried out of the ring like a new born baby"

2. jlupi: "Id take hagler. I dont think ward has proved at this point he is in the same league boxer or puncher as marvin"

3. Hagler04: "Hagler on aggression and harder punches landed in an UGLY fight. "

4. Overhand right: "Hagler clearly beats him in every single department, 8lbs or not."

5. Sagebrush: "My feeling - Short Version, is that Ward would be looking for a cerebral "Boxing Match" and instead gets an "Instinctual War" !
- But do agree, would probably be close, (Andre Thankful its not over 15 !!)"

6. Elwill7847: "I say Hagler is just too good and fierce for Andre, who I do think is a solid fighter."

7. Michael Frank: "I am definitely with Overhand and jlupi here."

Looking at the quotes only your post and Sage's offer any actual stylistic or talent or boxing reasons to why Hagler wins at 168 lbs

"Too fierce? Beats him clearly in every single department? Hagler on aggresion?"

Hardly detailed or analysed stuff here. Lazy if you ask me.

One poster even became almost annoyed that this could be a fantasy fight.

John Mugabi and Duran (LW/WW) gave Hagler some real issues, and yet Ward, an Olympic gold medalist, and a 168 lb world champion isn't fit to even select?