Hagler vs. Ward at 168lbs

[JLP 6]

Niether one of those fights you mentioned was Hagler at his best. Most people think that Hagler was being too nice to Duran. Do you see Duran going 12 or 15 with Hagler from the Hearns fight? Mugabi, fought brave, but really, Hagler had that one in the bag by the middle rounds. Mugabi fought the fight of his life and got kayo'ed in 11. I came away extremely impressed by the fire and stamina of Hagler. Mind you this was the second to last fight of his career.

Hagler at his best is one of the greatest fighters that ever lived. His career has been established and set in stone. Ward is a new guy. Olympics gold metalist go three rounds, slapping each other with head gear on. Don't even bring that up in the conversation.

I am not sure why you doubt that the other posters that responded here could not give you an excellent breakdown of the fight. I've read their post on other threads. They seem to know boxing. If they felt more was needed to say they would have given it. Add in a guy like Sagebrush laying it out. I mean, what more needs to be said? The majority of the posters here feel like Ward is not ready for that type of work.

Let me ask you a question. What is your perspective of Hagler's style, skill set? I want to get an impression of how you view him in the ring. I've read your post about Ward's abilities but you did not offer anything on Hagler except "don't see anywhere where Hagler can exploit this guy to win". What else do you have on Hagler? I mean, since we are talking details let have some of it from you about Hagler. Not that I doubt you, but it will give us a better view of why you are holding this line so hard.

Thanks

[walshb]

You are missing the point. Sage did give reasons and picked Hagler. No issue there. Actually, my issue was more to do with the fight being looked at with laughter, as if suggesting that Ward could win, or make it competitive was absurd. And, really, it was only two posters who thought the bout was laugable, embarrassing and futile, unless you too think it's a laugable fantasy match, making it three posters. I rate Hagler very highly. I just think Ward has the talent and skillset to be very competitive at 168 lbs.

Oh, as for Hagler. Ok, he has great stamina, great chin and a warrior's heart. I think he loses because Ward is too slick and cute, and Marvin like a fighter to attack. Ward won't attack unless he wants to. I see Ward forcing Marvin to press, and I see Ward winning on defence and slickness, and being every bit as good on the inside. I see an ugly win. I am all for styles, and Ward's slippy counter puncher/boxer/spioler style, added to natural physical advantages, sees Hagler coming up short. Hagler was not particularly fast with his hands, and Ward will exploit this.

[Elwill7847]

Looking at the quotes only your post and Sage's offer any actual stylistic or talent or boxing reasons to why Hagler wins at 168 lbs

"Too fierce? Beats him clearly in every single department? Hagler on aggresion?"

Hardly detailed or analysed stuff here. Lazy if you ask me.

One poster even became almost annoyed that this could be a fantasy fight.

John Mugabi and Duran (LW/WW) gave Hagler some real issues, and yet Ward, an Olympic gold medalist, and a 168 lb world champion isn't fit to even select?

Lazy? Hagler is a better fighter than Ward, plain and simple. His skill (pretty good puncher and boxer) was proven vs much better comp than Ward has fought. As I have said, I think Ward is a very good fighter and I do agree he would not be easy. But Hagler's all around boxing ability, his fierceness (as he showed vs the bigger Hearns), his good jab, body punching etc, all vs very good comp,would enable him to beat Ward. Like I said, Ward has good skills, but we dont know how he'd react vs the same level of comp Hagler had. Dont know what else I can say.

[walshb]

Lazy? Hagler is a better fighter than Ward, plain and simple. His skill (pretty good puncher and boxer) was proven vs much better comp than Ward has fought. As I have said, I think Ward is a very good fighter and I do agree he would not be easy. But Hagler's all around boxing ability, his fierceness (as he showed vs the bigger Hearns), his good jab, body punching etc, all vs very good comp,would enable him to beat Ward. Like I said, Ward has good skills, but we dont know how he'd react vs the same level of comp Hagler had. Dont know what else I can say.

That's a fair assessment. From my previous post I guess what I found odd was the fact that even posting the fight had some really baffled, as if Ward was so inept that he would not at all be any trouble for Marvin.

[JLP 6]

You are missing the point. Sage did give reasons and picked Hagler. No issue there. Actually, my issue was more to do with the fight being looked at with laughter, as if suggesting that Ward could win, or make it competitive was absurd. And, really, it was only two posters who thought the bout was laugable, embarrassing and futile, unless you too think it's a laugable fantasy match, making it three posters. I rate Hagler very highly. I just think Ward has the talent and skillset to be very competitive at 168 lbs.

Oh, as for Hagler. Ok, he has great stamina, great chin and a warrior's heart. I think he loses because Ward is too slick and cute, and Marvin like a fighter to attack. Ward won't attack unless he wants to. I see Ward forcing Marvin to press, and I see Ward winning on defence and slickness, and being every bit as good on the inside. I see an ugly win. I am all for styles, and Ward's slippy counter puncher/boxer/spioler style, added to natural physical advantages, sees Hagler coming up short. Hagler was not particularly fast with his hands, and Ward will exploit this.

Walsh. I am with those who say that Ward beating Hagler is laughable.

It would be the biggest upset in my mind of all the boxing fantasy fights I have read a/o posted on. No disrespect to you. I created a thread called Chavez vs. Ward at 140(as in Mickey). It did not take long for the other posters to end that conversation. I put Paul Williams in against Carmen Basillio. Fought hard to make people hear my point of view. Another poster said that Carmen would cut Paul in half. I picked Gatti to beat Mayweather, still holding on to effective aggression would beat him. Again, fail. So you are not talking with a guy who is missing your point. It is you who is missing the point, just like I was in those post. I had the sense to know when my arguement was not going to fly and I stopped it. You may see that as weakness but, it is not.

Again the point I that is obvious is that you are a huge Andre Ward fan and unless some agrees with your outcome of this match you are going to defend your stance to the end. I admire that. I would admire it more if you conceeded that we have all answered this thread honestly to our ability. We don't agree. All 7 of us.

Now to your Hagler style description. It is a little thin comparated to your Ward description. I see "warriors heart, great chin, great stamina". I also see that Hagler is "not particularly fast" and he needs "a boxer to come to him". Hagler has one of the greatest chins, warriors heart, and he was the IMO the best conditioned fighter of all time. Plus he hit hard 52KO's out of 64 wins. 12 unified title defenses. 11KO's. That was a reign of terror that only the best of the best can claim. Ward is a fighter that has nice, movement, decent pop, good defense, countering...basically he is a good contender in a historical sense but really nothing of note. I have not seen anything in his style that wows me. It is all nice and neat and cool. If Hagler presses the action Ward with less tools than Hearns or Leonard is going to be in huge trouble. Whenever Hagler pressed the action in his fights the tide turned in his favor everytime. Had he pressed it from the outset with Leonard, Leonard may have not made the final bell.

I will leave it at that for the moment.

[walshb]

I am not a huge Ward fan. What makes you think that?

I just think that he has talent and skills, and natural size advantage to make it a competitive scrap.

I would pick Calzaghe to beat Ward. Close as hell, but Joe a wee bit too busy and strong for Ward.

As for your matches, well, Ward-Chavez to me is far more futile than Andre Ward vs. Hagler at 168 lbs.

Ward after all is the best on earth at 168 lbs, a full 8 lbs higher than Marvin.

Ward at 168 lbs to me has enough tools, and as much as an inactive WW Leonard had at 160 lbs.

For example, Ward he will be fresher, younger, a deal stronger (than Ray), and bigger than Hagler too. SRL was none of these in 1987 vs. Hagler.

Hagler at peak was 1979-1982. This man is hell for Ward, but Ward brings enough skills and size to be trouble to Hagler too.

[JLP 6]

What makes me think that you are a huge fan of Ward?

Three things:
1. The description of Ward in your intial post.
2. Your unblinking defense of Ward vs. Hagler in the face of unanimous opposition of respected posters.
3. Pitting Ward 168 against Hagler at 160 instead other fighters at 168.

You will not relent in this pursuit because it seems important that Ward be considered close to All-time Great status by putting forward an argument for him beating one of the top 10-20 all-time great fighters. Top 5 all-time great middleweights.

All of that is why I consider you a huge Ward fan.

[walshb]

What makes me think that you are a huge fan of Ward?

3. Pitting Ward 168 against Hagler at 160 instead other fighters at 168.

.

How does this lead you to the conclusion that I am a huge Ward fan?

I picked Hagler becuase he was a beast at 160. I picked him because I though that the clash of styles would make for a great scrap.

The 168 division is fairly new.

Maybe tomorrow I'll pit Ward vs. Jones or Ward vs. Toney @ 168 lbs. Hope I don't get the same reaction

BTW, both the fights above would be close.

I posted Hagler-Ward on a different forum and most picked Ward.

[theironbar]

I posted Hagler-Ward on a different forum and most picked Ward.

And that is why the CBZ is the best boxing board out there!

As someone who also picked Gatti over Mayweather and has not heard the end of it, JLP, you have my complete sympathy and understanding!

[walshb]

And that is why the CBZ is the best boxing board out there!!

Stuck in the past?

Not asking anyone to pick Ward, but to be so so dismissive of Ward, who is a quality fighter, bigger than Marvin, as strong, with a great boxing brain, stamina, slippiness and skills, and very committed too, well, that doesn't instill the whole "best boxing board about" buzz to me.

BTW, I am aware that some replies simply picked Hagler, and weren't utterly dismissive of Ward.

All who posted elsewhere saw it as a hell of a close fight, like myself.

[Overhand_Right]

Maybe you should stick to those forums walshy? There are forums where most of the users think Floyd Mayweather would beat Sugar Ray Robinson. There are forums where they will post a top 10 heavyweight list of the 1970s vs a top 10 heavyweight list from today and 8 out of 10 modern heavyweights will apparently KO the legendary fighters. Are these people's opinions relevant to anything?

Hagler would put Ward down harder than that deadly killer darnell boone did.

[mrbig1]

Ward still has a ways to go to be on the same level as Hagler. We need at least two or three more years to see what Ward is really made of. Can he dig down to win a hard fight? Nobody knows this yet. He story is yet to be written.

[mrbig1]

Let me also add Does anybody think Ward could handle a young and in shape James Toney? If Ward is good enough to beat a HOFer like Hagler then he should be able to beat Toney as well.

[walshb]

Let me also add Does anybody think Ward could handle a young and in shape James Toney? If Ward is good enough to beat a HOFer like Hagler then he should be able to beat Toney as well.

And Toney too will be a HOF no doubt.

[Elwill7847]

I want to clarify that, when I say Ward wouldnt be easy, I mean that he would be competitive for maybe 5 rounds before Hagler would take full control enroute to a late stoppage win.

[JLP 6]

I want to clarify that, when I say Ward wouldnt be easy, I mean that he would be competitive for maybe 5 rounds before Hagler would take full control enroute to a late stoppage win.

This one gave me my first laugh of the morning. Thanks.

To the question of James Toney. That raised an important question. If Ward can beat Hagler, then he should be able to beat not only Toney, but Zale, Lamotta, Monzon, and perhaps Robinson himself. Hagler is without question NOT just another HOF'er like Cuevas, but Hagler is in the special room of HOF'ers like Robinson, Louis, Ali. He is simply, in his prime one of the most unbeatable fighters the ever put on gloves. He destroyed his competiton all the time. His title reign is littered with Beatdowns and Runovers. Not only that but he is one of the most technicial fighers ever to get in the ring. Able to overcome obstacles, by boxing or coming forward when the situation required.

If Ward is as good as at least one of us thinks he is already at this early point of his career, he may be on his way to being the greatest fighter of all-time.

Hmmm...

[Michael Frank]

To the question of James Toney. That raised an important question. If Ward can beat Hagler, then he should be able to beat not only Toney, but Zale, Lamotta, Monzon, and perhaps Robinson himself. Hagler is without question NOT just another HOF'er like Cuevas, but Hagler is in the special room of HOF'ers like Robinson, Louis, Ali. He is simply, in his prime one of the most unbeatable fighters the ever put on gloves. He destroyed his competiton all the time. His title reign is littered with Beatdowns and Runovers. Not only that but he is one of the most technicial fighers ever to get in the ring. Able to overcome obstacles, by boxing or coming forward when the situation required.

Hey JLP 6,

Glad you didn't post this a couple of years ago. Most on this board then would have had Monzon beating Godzilla, much less Hagler.

I'm a Hagler fan, always was, but I'd say that on his very best day he was still "beatable" . . . by only a couple or more of the very best, admittedly. As opposed to an Ali or a Robinson or a Ray Leonard, whom, I would say, on their best days were as close to unbeatable as is humanly possible.

[walshb]

I am a Hagler fan, but to say he was unbeatable is off the mark. Styles play such a role in contests. Guys like Jones and Toney, for example, won't be steamrolled. No Way. These men are HOF fighters. Capable of giving any man trouble at MW-SMW. Ward is still in his prime, and who knows what he will do. He can only beat what is in his era. He is also 168 bs, a big one too. A LHW in Athens in 2004. To make Hagler a clear favourite over Ward at 168 lbs doesn't make sense to me, even if Ward still has a way to go in his career. To date Ward has proved to be the best at 168 lbs.

The whole "if Ward can beat Toney he should be able to beat X, Y and Z" does not always work in boxing.

[JLP 6]

Hey JLP 6,

Glad you didn't post this a couple of years ago. Most on this board then would have had Monzon beating Godzilla, much less Hagler.

I'm a Hagler fan, always was, but I'd say that on his very best day he was still "beatable" . . . by only a couple or more of the very best, admittedly. As opposed to an Ali or a Robinson or a Ray Leonard, whom, I would say, on their best days were as close to unbeatable as is humanly possible.

Michael, I think you said it correct. Hagler on his best day was in fact beatable..."by only a couple or more of the very best". I think in a way we are saying the same thing. Hagler was not going to lose to a guy who has not been severly tested by, time, battles, and adversity. Talent and future greatness only go so far in the ring. At this point in his career, facing a prime Marvin Hagler would be throwing a solid 5 year Pro Offensive Lineman in against Reggie White. It may look even at the begining but when desire and depth get into the relm of fierce championship competition I think it will be clear that the greater fighter will have made his point clear and the lesser fighter might be lucky to get out in shape to fight another day.

[Elwill7847]

This one gave me my first laugh of the morning. Thanks.

To the question of James Toney. That raised an important question. If Ward can beat Hagler, then he should be able to beat not only Toney, but Zale, Lamotta, Monzon, and perhaps Robinson himself. Hagler is without question NOT just another HOF'er like Cuevas, but Hagler is in the special room of HOF'ers like Robinson, Louis, Ali. He is simply, in his prime one of the most unbeatable fighters the ever put on gloves. He destroyed his competiton all the time. His title reign is littered with Beatdowns and Runovers. Not only that but he is one of the most technicial fighers ever to get in the ring. Able to overcome obstacles, by boxing or coming forward when the situation required.

If Ward is as good as at least one of us thinks he is already at this early point of his career, he may be on his way to being the greatest fighter of all-time.

Hmmm...

haha, glad I could give you a chuckle. Seriously, I'm on the same page with you in that Ward isnt in the same league with Hagler or Toney.

[JLP 6]

Hey JLP 6,

Glad you didn't post this a couple of years ago. Most on this board then would have had Monzon beating Godzilla, much less Hagler.

I'm a Hagler fan, always was, but I'd say that on his very best day he was still "beatable" . . . by only a couple or more of the very best, admittedly. As opposed to an Ali or a Robinson or a Ray Leonard, whom, I would say, on their best days were as close to unbeatable as is humanly possible.

Mike I wanted your thoughts on this idea of the most unbeatable fighters in history. I would welcome everyone elses thoughts as well.

5 of the most unbeatable IMO that I have seen and studied are (in no real order, this is just of the top of my head):

I. ROBERTO DURAN from the Buchanon and last two DeJesus fights. He was a little demon, racing around the ring throwing punches, overwelming serious competition. Getting off the deck both times to fight harder. Scary.

II. MARVELOUS MARVIN HAGLER from the Hearns fight and the Antufermo II fight. We have all seen Hagler-Hearns. His bull rush of a matador (Hearns) who posessed that much fire. The Antufermo was just a clinical outbox/slash beatdown. Freddie Brown was so upset by what happened to his fighter that he went after Hagler a little bit.

III. JOSEPH BARROW LOUIS from the Schmeling II fight and the Baer fight. Joe was deadly focused on Max S to the point a hypnotic stare. he destroyed a great fighter like he was fighting a girl. Max B. took a pounding by the most educated fist ever surrounded by gloves.

IV. JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ from the Rosario fight. These punches were the best comination in boxing I have ever seen. At one point in the fight Rosario gets beatup in his own corner the entire round. He stood up, took a beating and sat down.

V. SUGAR RAY ROBINSON from the Graziano bout. His movement and combinations were fluid and precise. He got off the mat from a pull down and delivered and KO that Rocky felt all the way to his feet.

I could go on but I will stop right there.

[walshb]

Floyd from the SFW clash with Corralles looked unbeatable.

[JLP 6]

I agree. Mayweather was at his height that night. I would also in include Hopkins the night he fought Trinidad. He was as close to boxing perfection as it gets. He set the pace, controlled the distance, understood his opponents strengths and weaknesses, exposed flaws in a great fighter.

I think Hopkins would he a tough fighter for any Middlewieght in history to solve that night.

[walshb]

I agree. Mayweather was at his height that night. I would also in include Hopkins the night he fought Trinidad. He was as close to boxing perfection as it gets. He set the pace, controlled the distance, understood his opponents strengths and weaknesses, exposed flaws in a great fighter.

I think Hopkins would he a tough fighter for any Middlewieght in history to solve that night.

Toney from the Tim Littles or Iran Barkley fight looked superb. Hopkins is tough for any MW. He may bore some, but technically he is superb. No man is beating him up, ever.

Jones form Griffith II was also superb.

Hagler from the Minter fight was to me at his most ferocious and fast and possessed.

[GorDoom]

Who has Ward ever beaten on a level with Mugabi or Duran, or Sibbs, Auntefermo, Hearns, etc.??? The fact that you wildly state that Ward is a better all around boxer??? Jeez man, Ward's still basically a novice who has fought mediocre -compared to Hagler's competition & yet you categorically state that he'd beat Hagler???

WOW! Your logic completely escapes me...

GorDoom

[Michael Frank]

Michael, I think you said it correct. Hagler on his best day was in fact beatable..."by only a couple or more of the very best". I think in a way we are saying the same thing. Hagler was not going to lose to a guy who has not been severly tested by, time, battles, and adversity. Talent and future greatness only go so far in the ring. At this point in his career, facing a prime Marvin Hagler would be throwing a solid 5 year Pro Offensive Lineman in against Reggie White. It may look even at the begining but when desire and depth get into the relm of fierce championship competition I think it will be clear that the greater fighter will have made his point clear and the lesser fighter might be lucky to get out in shape to fight another day.

Hi JLP,

Yes, we're in agreement pretty much on everything here! I was nitpicking on Hagler because I saw just a bit of MENTAL weakness in him, or maybe it was just improper tactics, vs. Vito #1, Duran, and Leonard. Probably also in one of those early "controversial" losses as well to Watts or Monroe.

Whereas Ali, Leonard, and Robinson seemed to always have the right game plan in addition to their skills, brains, and hearts. Beating one of them, while it did occur (rarely), was never an "easy" win by any stretch when they still were in their primes.

[Michael Frank]

Mike I wanted your thoughts on this idea of the most unbeatable fighters in history. I would welcome everyone elses thoughts as well.

5 of the most unbeatable IMO that I have seen and studied are (in no real order, this is just of the top of my head):

I. ROBERTO DURAN from the Buchanon and last two DeJesus fights. He was a little demon, racing around the ring throwing punches, overwelming serious competition. Getting off the deck both times to fight harder. Scary.

II. MARVELOUS MARVIN HAGLER from the Hearns fight and the Antufermo II fight. We have all seen Hagler-Hearns. His bull rush of a matador (Hearns) who posessed that much fire. The Antufermo was just a clinical outbox/slash beatdown. Freddie Brown was so upset by what happened to his fighter that he went after Hagler a little bit.

III. JOSEPH BARROW LOUIS from the Schmeling II fight and the Baer fight. Joe was deadly focused on Max S to the point a hypnotic stare. he destroyed a great fighter like he was fighting a girl. Max B. took a pounding by the most educated fist ever surrounded by gloves.

IV. JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ from the Rosario fight. These punches were the best comination in boxing I have ever seen. At one point in the fight Rosario gets beatup in his own corner the entire round. He stood up, took a beating and sat down.

V. SUGAR RAY ROBINSON from the Graziano bout. His movement and combinations were fluid and precise. He got off the mat from a pull down and delivered and KO that Rocky felt all the way to his feet.

I could go on but I will stop right there.

This topic of "fighters who were unbeatable on their best days" (admittedly all are imperfect humans, but essentially the idea that no one had the style to decisively beat them, if beating them at all, in their primes) would make for a good thread.

I'll still lead with Ali, Robinson, and Ray Leonard, though I know those are easy picks.

From your list, I like Chavez the best. He dominated everybody, style didn't matter, and in his LONG prime, didn't even have an off-night. I think the great Duran was beatable in his prime (DeJesus did it) and if Leonard had come with the right plan to Montreal, I think he would have beaten Duran there, too. Maybe not, Duran of that night was pretty awesome, but he never dropped Ray or came close to it. Hagler has the problem I described in the above post. I've already mentioned Robbie myself, and I'd agree with you as to Louis; even someone who might well beat Joe on styles (I like Jack Dempsey here to do that) might well have caught a hard one and been down for 10, if not 20. A prime Dempsey makes this list for me, come to think of it.

Other names? Mayweather doesn't make MY list. I'll give him credit for a champion's preparation and attitude, but I don't see the skills at ANY weight not to be beaten by the top names of other eras.

Salvador Sanchez comes to mind as unbeatable, despite the brief prime. Wilfredo Gomez makes my "unbeatable" list, too; he could barely be touched for years, until squaring off at a higher weight with the aforementioned Sanchez. Greb? I don't know the older talents so well. Not Marciano, since he loses to a couple or more of the all-timers IMO, but his undefeated record sure counts for something. Many on this board would say Monzon, someone I didn't care for, and I think several greats would have beaten him. Still, when he was champ, in the real world, nobody DID beat him. Definitely Michael Spinks at 175 . . . almost nobody even gave him a tough fight, and no one ever beat him, at that weight. Napoles when at lightweight, maybe??

Duran at 135, when he came to destroy, which wasn't every time, would make the list easily but for his inconsistent training, so I'm wavering on him. RJJ seemed unbeatable to me, nobody even laid a glove on him in his prime, but I'd imagine some of the all-timers might. Holyfield and Whitaker had that "win every time" attitude, and Evander literally came to take your head off every time. But at heavyweight, he was exposed to too much weight/size differential. At cruiser, though, I'd call him unbeatable.

That's my list at the moment.

[walshb]

With Floyd it is difficlut to put him at any one weight. If I had to pick I would select 140 lbs. Here he was big, fast, strong, and he was also physically mature. He still had the speed of foot and hand. I think he's amatch for anyone here. Oscar, Mosley, Pryor, Chavez, Whitaker, Duran et al. I am aware that Floyd didn't fight much at the weight, but nor did Duran.

[PD99]

Boxing is very much about burden of proof and not so much about extrapolated potential drawn from the negative or unknown space.

All a fighter can do is engage the best available to him. Unfortunately, for some fighters, the "best availabe" hardly provides sufficient answers as to the known limits of that fighter's ability.

Had Ali stopped fighting upon his victory over Cleveland Williams, we might've projected a perhaps unbeatable fighter save for the knowledge of the extreme limits of Ali's durability, courage and character, particularly as upheld against more challenging competition. They were yet to be revealed and given the sublime limits that Ali did ultimately exhibit, they could hardly be assumed before or without the fact.

Rather, one would more likely assume that such sublime qualities are not possessed until they are thoroughly upheld, such is their rarity among the population.

[JaKob]

With Floyd it is difficlut to put him at any one weight. If I had to pick I would select 140 lbs. Here he was big, fast, strong, and he was also physically mature. He still had the speed of foot and hand. I think he's amatch for anyone here. Oscar, Mosley, Pryor, Chavez, Whitaker, Duran et al. I am aware that Floyd didn't fight much at the weight, but nor did Duran.

I don't think he's a match for anyone at 140 and would get absolutely steamrolled by Duran and Pryor for a start. His output was far too low and it needed to be. He fights behind that left shoulder and doesn't utilize a dynamic defensive style like pernell who could move his whole body and rattle off combinations in the pocket. Floyd's style is inherently restrictive pertaining to output and volume and he didn't have the power at say 140 to keep those guys off him.