I think the next time Manny faces a guy with knockout power and decent speed he could be in trouble.
I think the next time Manny faces a guy with knockout power and decent speed he could be in trouble.
His physical assets have been eroding for a while. I've always thought this and people have refuted it based on the fact that the last stylistic matchups weren't favourable ones. However this one was. Even when Bradley was coming forward straight at him where was he on his toes, showing angles, seamlessly moving and throwing in combination?. Where is that in and out movement on his toes, in a rhthym, with head movement, all done seamlessly with supreme coordination? It just isn't there. He can't cover distance, pull the trigger, whilst providing an angle and getting out of trouble. The writing was on the wall against Mosely. This confirms it as far as i'm concerned. He absolutely peaked against Cotto. His movement, his coordination, his speed was all superb. Landing in combination from strange angles on his toes and covering distance seamlessly. He is now far more flatfooted and looks to land that left that he lands far less often because he can't seamlessly move into the killzone and maintain accuracy like he could. He's an aging warrior with a fair bit of speed and power. His legs were so vital to his success and they are absolutely going.
Never mind what kind of an emotional or psychic blow this crooked duke has taken on the wizened inhabitants of the CBZ; think about the so-called "casual" fan of boxing and his/her reaction.
I belong to several forums for a variety of interests, and even THEY are talking about this one. Comments range from: "THIS is why I no longer follow boxing", to "This kind of stuff doesn't happen in the UFC".
Just when some decent young fighters are coming up, making boxing interesting for the mainstream fan, the gonifs in Vegas have to cock it all up.
PS: Eff Arum
Good point about missing the conveyance of punch impact with the sound down.
As to reviewing the fight. If we're to review the fight with the judges scores in mind and determine if there is any way possible to approximate our scoring to their own, that obviously lends itself to another form of subjective bias - doing our absolute best to score in Bradley's favour where ever possible in an effort to "see" what the judges saw.
Had the decision been awarded to Pac within the scoring range agreed upon by most observors, there would be no rewatching of the fight - at least not for the purpose of re-scoring. Done and dusted.
Even allowing for "Underdog" syndrome = exaggerated scoring for any hint of success on Bradley's part - this decision appears to be tainted by more than just plain ineptitude/subjective filtering.
PS - Adam - officiating and authorisation of who fights and who doesn't are both regulation issues. If not managed fairly and morally, both can be potentially damaging to its particpants and the reputation of the sport as a whole.
My point is that the rights of the infrastructure as guided by its own rules are far greater than the rights of the individual particpant who looks to and depends upon the infrastructure to earn his/her living. As such, the boxer's rights are always limited and never absolute. Even during the course of a bout, if a fighter wishes to continue, his right to continue fighting may be overriden by either his corner and/or the referee with the fighter's safety in view. It naturally follows that the sport is also responsible for it's particpants in overall career terms and the sport should properly exercise its right to terminate a boxer's career within the infrastructure as and when appropriate.
Also, no need to apologise for anything. Your opinions and passion are respected.
This was the worst decision I have ever seen. The closest to this in my book was when Sweat pea Chavez was ruled a draw. I seen other bad decisions, but this one was so bad that Hmmm its irrelevant, this mark on both resume will be disregarded by all, Manny will still be looked upon as undefeated in last 7 years, and Bradly will be looked upon by all as having lost this fight. It was not close.
Bradley is the same Bradley that I thought he was and saw no difference. He totally overmatched, many times did not seem to be in the same class as a slipping Manny.
I do not think Manny is the type that would fix a fight, I think many times we cry that and its not so, its just bad judging, but there are many factors to scream Manny and Bradley were always set for a 2 fight saga, maybe 3. Why else would a fighter who is focused on winning their biggest fight ever, (bradley) tweet a picture of the the rematch in Nov days before the first fight. Would not it make sense from Arum's standpoint to milk Manny vs Bradley who will not cause any wear or tear on him, just mileage, before he steps in what would clearly be the final fight of Manny's career vs Mayweather. Mayweather being out of circulation for the next 3 months, this allows Bob to get 2 paydays, not at all hurt Manny's reputation or risk him having to fight a Marquez again since he will be tied up with Bradley. The hype of this next fight due to the robbery will generate a big payday again, and Arum makes off like a bandit. Then he fights Mayweather next year.
Finally, lets face it. Both mayweather and packman are slipping, as they should be at their ages. We should have gotten this fight 2-3 years ago. We won't. The version of Pacman that fought last night missed many opportunities to finish Bradley. He missed open targets, and may weather even if he is slipping will be much harder to hit, will hit harder, will be faster etc than Bradley.
I was not that impressed by may weather vs Cotto, thought I saw slippage, and slowing. The two things cotto could do Manny can not. Cotto employed a good jab and he is physically bigger than Mayweather keeping him on the ropes at time. I do not see manny able to do that. But there is one common thing that happens in all of Manny's fights that he may have vs Mayweather. That is once the opponent feels his power they start to back up, and acknowledge his hits much harder than they thought he would even with all the hoopla over his power.
I agree that Manny may not throw quite as many as he once did, but I also think you have to credit the opponents for that. Guys like Margarito and Clottey engaged in a slow plodding forward style with the exact same tempo that allowed Pac to time and easily control them. Big difference when you have better boxers in Marquez and Bradley, who have speed, head movement, subtle back and forth footwork, and ability to counter. Different ball game. It is like that offensive team that puts up 30+ points in football, and we all talk about what an offensive machine they are, but then they come up against a team in the superbowl whose offense and defense is peaking, and they get different looks and suddenly you can't move the ball in quite the same way. I predicted that Bradley would give Pac trouble not because I thought Pac was slipping but because I saw things in Bradley that would throw Pac off just enough that he wouldn't be able to steamroll him,a and Pac would not only miss punches but he'd have to deal with some speedy punches as well. I still thought Pac rose to the occasion and did what he had to do to beat a tricky guy. Remember, Bradley was no bum, he beat fast southpaws like Witter and Alexander, and also beat a very fast and well conditioned Lamont Peterson.
I took another look at the fight, and it was much closer than I had originally thought. I was obviously spoiled by knowing what happened, but I left the sound on so I could hear the punches. In my view, Bradley won 1, 2, 8, 10 and 11 pretty clearly. In 8, even the HBO folks said that Pac basically didn't do anything, and Bradley was the one who was pressing forward the whole round. 9 and 12 were closer. I'd probably score 9 for Pac and 12 for Bradley, which latter Emmanuel Steward agreed with. So to me, that leaves the fight a draw. I'm not sure where I'd find another round to give to Bradley to get the win. In a lot of the rounds, though, Pac was throwing punches that were being blocked or missing entirely, but the crowd was reacting as though he was beating the daylights out of Bradley. In short, I definitely thought it was a closer fight on re-viewing than when I watched it live. Whether Bradley won or not, I don't know. But the decision seems way less a robbery to me on a relook than it did that night.
Last edited by JaKob; 06-10-2012 at 10:54 PM.
just rewatched again. Can't see it. Manny missed a few shots but still managed to land the few clean and effective punches in the rounds. What i think is being missed by many is how many of times punches were actually being caught on the gloves when Manny threw up the high guard in the pocket. He doesn't throw straight and couldn't penetrate the gaps available up the middle. His jabs were continually being caught on the glove. I just can't score rounds for him where he isn't landing anything noteworthy at all.
I agree with apollack as regards the styles of Manny's last few opponents. Bradley is a slick fighter, a technician, a spoiler and a very clever boxer. Manny won't be able to unload and land and works as easy against thhis type as opposed to the mummy, Margarito, and the punch bag, Clottey. That means that Manny may not look as clean and fluid and good. I defeinitely saw a difference in Manny's spring and bounce and overall speed of feet and hands in the Bradley fight compared to when he looked heavy and leathargic vs. Mosley and Marquez. He just looked tired/sluggish vs. Mosley and Marquez, bloated even. Vs Bradley he looked leaner, faster, lighter and overall he possessed a lot more zip and snap.
Last edited by walshb; 06-11-2012 at 05:13 AM.
BTW, all this talk about Lederman being a great judge. Well, he gave rd 11 and 12 to Manny. Not saying one couldn't, but I think Bradley deserved them rds more than Manny. I had my rd scores written down but I have misplaced them. I gave Bradley rds 11 and 12, and I can't recall the other two. Oh, I think rd 10 as well.
Last edited by walshb; 06-11-2012 at 04:07 AM.
How slick was Bradley on the front foot? How clever was he? He just really wasn't at all. He come forward in linear fashion and ate left hands. When he come forward Manny absolutely had the chance if he COULD to be on his toes and pivot as he was throwing as Bradley was advancing in a straight line. There was nothing slick about the way he advanced in the early rounds. The spring and fluidity isn't there and i can't see how you can attribute this to how Bradley fought when he did not fight a slick fight early going at all. Even in the later rounds. If that's what constitutes slick and clever then boxing is in a right state. He established lateral movement moving away from the left hand. It was effective in minimizing Pacquaio's opportunities to impose his strengths but bradley himself was unable to do anything other then pump a jab that was caught on the gloves almost always and throw a few clubbing left hooks and right hands that were also usually partially blocked. Compare Cotto coming forward in the early going and Bradley coming forward in the early going. Bradley was as easy to hit and unlike Cotto didn't work behind a authoritative left jab. Manny has always been able to get up on his toes and pivot as someone attempts to apply pressure and it's a bit of a stretch i think to suggest that Bradley's pressure in the early going was anything troublesome enough to prevent Pacquaio from doing this if he still had the capacity to do so in anything but short stints at this point in his career.
Bradley isn't Archie Moore slick or Pea slick, but he's no dummy. He's been boxing all his life. He knows how to handle himself and make it difficult and awkward for a foe.
Gomez-Lockridge, Snipes-Coetzee, etc., were hometown decisions and a fact of life we've come to expect and learn to live with.
This was something on a whole new scale. I can't recall boxing's biggest star ever being dethroned by such a horrible decision. As nutsy as boxing could get at times, it always seemed to be cognizant of the fact that when it comes to taking the title away from the sport's recognized superstar attraction the scoring needs to be as professionally handled as possible. If anything, in a close fight it is better to err on the side of the superstar (Louis-Walcott, Ali-Young).
This wasn't that close. It was just all err, all in the wrong direction.
Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Leonard, Tyson, Mayweather ....can anyone envision them having their titles wrenched away by a decision like this?
I really respect Bradley's guttiness in the fight, but the overall perception is one of a jab coming up way short most the time, a lot of punches missing/blocked, and those that did connect were in exchanges that Pacquiao initiated and won.
Some folks are saying Pacquiao is showing signs of aging because he's not throwing the volume of punches he did in 2008. If you notice, in 2008 he wasn't throwing the same volume of punches he was in 2004, nor in 2004 was he throwing the same volume of punches he was in 2002. Obviously everybody is aging, but I see Pacquiao as becoming increasingly more methodical.
Demonstrating footwork and working angles depends a lot on the style of the opponent. Pacquiao gave a real tour-de-force of angular attacks against Margarito because Margarito was custom-made for it, always coming forward. Bradley was constantly taking one step back, one step back.... which doesn't mean that Pacquiao lost a step. It means that Bradley was taking it away.
Boxing's going to survive this. Although even this robbery may be unprecedented, the larger sports world expects this crap from boxing, the red-headed stepchild of the sports world. As for Pac-Man, if he doesn't fight Bradley again I expect there's a good chance we've seen the last of him in the ring.
Thanks a lot Nevada.
"If this were 'American Idol', without a doubt, Manny Pacquiao would have won," Ford said. "But it was not."
You know what? For somebody who just made a complete buffoon of himself in front of the whole world, this is pretty insulting for him to direct at us.
Pacquiao-Bradley rematch? Not so fast
By Lance Pugmire / Los Angeles Times
Monday, June 11, 2012 - Added 4 hours ago
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LAS VEGAS — Manny Pacquiao reserved a contractual right to request a rematch against Timothy Bradley if he lost Saturday.
And even though Pacquiao was left stunned by a split-decision defeat in which two of three judges awarded Bradley a 115-113 victory, it’s not a given that the pair will reunite in November.
Fight promoter Bob Arum said after the bout that he heard from ticket brokers who said they would have trouble selling seats to a Bradley rematch because most fight watchers considered the World Boxing Organization welterweight title bout on Saturday at the MGM Grand a one-sided Pacquiao victory.
"The brokers are telling us if we make a Bradley rematch, no one will go," Arum said.
Todd duBoef, president of Arum’s Top Rank promotional company, said he’d like to see the results of polls asking fans if they want a rematch before committing to a second fight.
Veering from Bradley would deny him another major purse after he earned $5 million against Pacquiao. Bradley manager Cameron Dunkin said following Saturday night’s fight that he would expect a rematch purse to be "something near" $10 million now that Bradley has the belt.
So there’s some leveraging going on too.
Pacquiao’s alternatives would be another run atFloyd Mayweather Jr., who’s due for release from Clark County (Nev.) jail on a domestic-violence conviction in August, or a fourth fight against Juan Manuel Marquez.
Bradley improved to 29-0 with Saturday’s victory, but few outside of his supporters were buying the scores that favored him from judges Catherine J. Ross and Duane Ford.
Arum said Bradley told the promoter in the ring before the scorecards were turned in, "Manny’s a great fighter. I tried as hard as I could, but I came up short."
Despite concerns Pacquiao (54-4-2) had been flat in his two previous fights and might be unfocused after experiencing a religious awakening this year, the Filipino superstar returned to form close to his peak and connected on 253 punches to Bradley’s 159, according to CompuBox statistics.
"I was proud of Manny," Pacquiao trainer Freddie Roach said. "I thought it was his best fight since" a 2009 victory over Miguel Cotto. "He clearly won the fight. I think the judges had their eyes closed. Something wasn’t right."
Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer said he does not anticipate any discipline or review of Ross or Ford.
"Every fighter who loses a close fight looks at the judges," Kizer said. "I think every judge should strive to get better."
Arum expressed concern for boxing fans’ faith in the sport.
"The outcome of this is not good," he said. "I hope boxing recovers."
"Every fighter who loses a close fight looks at the judges," Kizer said. "I think every judge should strive to get better."
Yeah, no shit Sherlock. What an idiot. Just watch. This guy will not do anything, but will actually keep appointing these two to big fights just to give the public the big finger. Just watch. And what will anyone do about it?
The rematch will be a carbon copy of this fight, but Manny will get the decision.
If they think I’m going to pay $64.00 for a do-over they’re crazy.
If they sucker everyone into buying the PPV rematch, then Barnum’s famous quote will live on: “There is a sucker born every minute, and two to take him.”
He should stick to what every judge does after a garbage decision & hide his soulless self under a rock until the next assignment he doesn't deserve.
All this aside, I am curious how much the roll of the ankle impacted Bradley.
Evidence seems to suggest that keeping away from Pac is the best shot at beating him.
I wonder if TB would have been more aggressive if both feet were working perfectly or if he intended to back pedal even more.
Pacquiao out-landed Bradley in 10 of the 12 rounds, with a 253-to-159 advantage in total punches, 63-51 in jabs and 190-108 in power punches. Bradley out-landed Pacquiao in only the ninth round, while the 10th was even in punches connected with each landing 14 punches.
There are alternative means to watching these fights. Via the internet. I personally just like to watch at a sports bar however more and more people are going the internet route. Some will say it's dishonest... but it's getting to the point where the notion that fans would be ripping the sport off by watching this shite free is absurd.
What a disappointing night! I lost sleep over this one.
I submitted the following piece to the Chicago Reader, who passed on it:
By the way, I had problems getting the spacing in between the paragraphs. Yikes!
I can't help but think back to my initial reaction when the decision was announced. "That fight was fixed." Everyone who was watching had mouths agape. Everyone was just so shocked. The feel of the bout was that Manny had won clearly and easily. It seemed to be a foregone conclusion to everyone watching. But, like I said, it has happened before and it will happen again. Just thinking back to Whitaker-Chavez, Lewis - Holyfield I, De la Hoya - Trinidad, etc. Hell, there have been some horrendous decisions even this year. Gabriel Campillo was utterly screwed out of victory against Tavoris Cloud. Yet, it is Cloud who is scheduled for the money fight against Pascal. Just goes to show you about this sport, and how it shoots itself in the foot all the time. It has so many lowlifes, shady characters, ignoramuses, and folks who don't care about the integrity of the sport but only the dollar. That is why it will always be a step below other sports in terms of respectability, regardless of whether or not that is fair.
I tried to bend over backwards to be fair to Bradley, and I still could not score it for him. But like I said, all you need to know about C.J. Ross is that she gets it wrong a lot, scoring lots of draws in fights where there is a clear winner, and all you need to know about Duane Ford is that he had Foreman down by only one point to Moorer going into the 10th round, when 99.999% of folks who saw the fight gave every round to Moorer. Maybe you could have thrown George 1 round, 2 at the most, but that is it. As soon as a judge turns in a disgraceful card like that, they should be done for life.
The point is that Ross did nothing to fairly justify her appointment to a high profile bout like that. So the real questions should be pointed to the commission or the WBO, and ask them how in the hell it was determined that Ross would be judging that bout. Even BEFORE the fight, Lederman was questioning how the heck Ross got that bout when her history was mediocre at best. Therein lies the real answer about boxing. It isn't about putting in the best, most competent, and honest judges and referees. Not at all. Just ask how you get to be a judge or referee in Nevada, or California, or Texas, for that matter, where you see "officials" who have never even worked an amateur bout before. But they know someone or are someone's son or daughter. You dig?
Barry Tompkins, Showtime: 119-110 Pacquiao
Harold Lederman, HBO: 119-109 Pacquiao
Ray Markarian, The Sweet Science: 119-109 Pacquiao
Michael Marley, Examiner: 119-109 Pacquiao
Dan Rafael, ESPN: 119-109 Pacquiao
Vittorio Tafur, San Francisco Chronicle: 119-109 Pacquiao
Michael Woods, The Sweet Science: 119-109 Pacquiao
Ramon Aranda, 3 More Rounds: 118-110 Pacquiao
Mario Cabrera, Boxing Republic: 118-110 Pacquiao
Nigel Collins, ESPN: 118-110 Pacquiao
Mike Coppinger, Ring Magazine: 118-110 Pacquiao
Ace Freeman, Fight Fan: 118-110 Pacquiao
Rich Marotta, KFI Los Angeles: 118-110 Pacquiao
Kelsey McCarson, The Sweet Science: 118-110 Pacquiao
Gabriel Montoya, MaxBoxing: 118-110 Pacquiao
Pete O’Brien, USA Today: 118-110 Pacquiao
Eric Raskin, Grantland: 118-110 Pacquiao
Michael Rosenthal, Ring Magazine: 118-110 Pacquiao
Colin Seymour, Examiner: 118-110 Pacquiao
Ryan Songalia, Ring Magazine: 118-110 Pacquiao
Ryan Burton, Boxing Scene: 117-112 Pacquiao
Scott Christ, Bad Left Hook: 117-111 Pacquiao
Tim Dahlberg, Associated Press: 117-111 Pacquiao
Gareth Davies, London Daily Telegraph: 117-111 Pacquiao
Doug Fischer, Ring Magazine: 117-111 Pacquiao
David Greisman, Boxing Scene: 117-111 Pacquiao
Jorge Hernandez, The Low Blow: 117-111 Pacquiao
Kevin Iole, Yahoo! Sports: 117-111 Pacquiao
Robert Littal, Black Sports Online: 117-111 Pacquiao
Steve Kim, Max Boxing: 117-111 Pacquiao
Ryan Maquiñana, Comcast SportsNet Bay Area: 117-111 Pacquiao
David Mayo, MLive: 117-111 Pacquiao
Kieran Mulvaney, HBO: 117-111 Pacquiao
Lance Pugmire, Los Angeles Times: 117-111 Pacquiao
Chris Robinson, Boxing Scene: 117-111 Pacquiao
Cliff Rold, Boxing Scene: 117-111 Pacquiao
Champ Ross, Da Truth Boxing: 117-111 Pacquiao
Luis Sandoval, Boxing Scene: 117-111 Pacquiao
Jonathan Sakti, Comcast SportsNet Bay Area: 117-111 Pacquiao
Tim Starks, Queensberry Rules: 117-111 Pacquiao
Richie Tomassini, Comcast SportsNet Bay Area: 117-111 Pacquiao
Darren Velasco, 8 Count News: 117-111 Pacquiao
Rick Reeno, Boxing Scene: 116-112 Pacquiao
George Willis, New York Post: 116-112 Pacquiao
Steve Zemach, Queensberry Rules: 116-112 Pacquiao
Armando Alvarez, Telemundo: 115-113 Pacquiao
Jake Donovan, Boxing Scene: 115-113 Pacquiao
Lem Satterfield, Ring Magazine: 115-113 Pacquiao
Thomas Hauser, HBO: 115-114 Bradley
Bart Barry, 15 Rounds: 116-115 Bradley
Brian Kenny, Top Rank: 116-112 Bradley
TOTAL: Pacquiao 48, Bradley 3.
The clincher: Thomas Hauser, HBO: 115-114 Bradley
My two cents...
Manny cruised along so well, for so long, for all intents and purposes not losing a round (other than an occasional courtesy round gift from the judges).
Cotto, Clottey, DLH, Diaz, Margarito, Mosley, Hatton...
I think observers of the sport, including us, at a certain point begin to look for flaws to throw his way. I think the close rounds in JMMIII were completely blown out of proportion. And the close rounds in the Bradley fight were wayyyyy overrated. I think we've raised the bar so high for Manny that we expect him to completely dominate so thoroughly, that it's our disappointment that oftentimes leads us to score many close rounds against him.
Frankly, I didn't get the impression for a second that JMM came into that fight to beat Manny, and nothing I saw during the fight changed that perception. Bradley did try to win, but c'mon, he didn't.
Funny thing was, the guy didn't even bat an eye afterwards. I've seen it before and since... Tony Sibson hit Don Lee with a shot like that. It seems like those shots that sound like a guy is about to go to sleep never had the impact to match the noise.