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Thread: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

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    Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    In YOUR opinion, I would like to know why do you think rocky beat jersey joe walcott and ezzard charles so easily in rematches after having very close fights with them in the first fights??

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Maybe because they were both down to their last bullets in their first fights and had nothing left against an extremely tough but not great fighter who hit like a mule and came into the ring in top condition every time out.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Because they were already past their primes & old for that era of heavies. Plus both of the first fights were really grueling affairs & at Walcott & Charles' age they were too old & shop worn to recover from such severe fights.

    Joe retired after his 2nd fight with Rock. Charles fought on for a few more years losing more than he was winning. Another reason he didn't do well in the 2nd fight is their rematch was exactly 3 months later & it simply wasn't enough time for Ezz to recover at his age from the first time.

    Though if they had rematched 6-9 months later I seriously doubt at that point in Charles' career that it would have made any difference

    GorDoom

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by HE Grant
    Maybe because they were both down to their last bullets in their first fights and had nothing left against an extremely tough but not great fighter who hit like a mule and came into the ring in top condition every time out.

    not a great fighter? ill have to disagree with u there HE. rocky was defintley a great fighter, a definte top 10 heavyweight of all time.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by GorDoom
    Because they were already past their primes & old for that era of heavies. Plus both of the first fights were really grueling affairs & at Walcott & Charles' age they were too old & shop worn to recover from such severe fights.

    Joe retired after his 2nd fight with Rock. Charles fought on for a few more years losing more than he was winning. Another reason he didn't do well in the 2nd fight is their rematch was exactly 3 months later & it simply wasn't enough time for Ezz to recover at his age from the first time.

    Though if they had rematched 6-9 months later I seriously doubt at that point in Charles' career that it would have made any difference

    GorDoom

    walcott was not past his prime. this was the same walcott who recentley dominated then knocked out ezzard charles with one punch.

    on film,

    the first marciano fight is walcotts 2nd best prefomance(1st is louis I)



    -most ringsiders and historians claim walcotts fight against marciano was one of if not the finest of his career.


    -jersey joe walcott attests he was at his peak in the first marciano fight.



    charles was past his prime, walcott was certainly not.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Anybody that say Walcott was not past his prime at 38-39 years old , i'm sorry to say does't know what he is talking about.

    Frank B.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by kikibalt
    Anybody that say Walcott was not past his prime at 38-39 years old , i'm sorry to say does't know what he is talking about.

    Frank B.

    walcott was in his prime in first marciano fight, but not the 2nd.


    are u telling me the 37 year old jersey joe walcott who knocked out a 29 year old ezzard charles was past his prime??



    ok then when was walcotts prime? it certainly wasnt when he was losing to tiger jack fox, al ettore, abe simon. it also wasnt when he was losing to joey maxim and elmer ray.




    you say i dont know what im talking about. well i say to you im guessing u didnt see the walcott-marciano fight cause everyone who saw the fight at ringside claims walcott was not over the hill.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    jersey joe was not "over the hill" when he fought marciano. Walcott was undeniably a late-bloomer as a fighter. Walcott had just overcome his arch-nemesis, Charles, twice in his last two fights. Now, does anyone, when discussing Charles' legacy, say "Charles was beaten by a past-prime Walcott"? I'm afraid not. Those two wins were the biggest victories Walcott ever put together, and they were his last two fights before he fought Marciano, only a few months prior. Ridiculous to think he was in his prime? No, to the contrary, I see no reason to think he suddenly became an old, washed-up fighter the night he faced Marciano simply to fulfill the detractors' attempts at discrediting him. Walcott was hard as nails when he fought Rocky, he was fast, sharp, confident, focused, and in no way fought like an old man. Many historians and Ringsiders consider this one of or if not walcotts best preformances of his career. watch the films again......Walcott is fast, with a hard, driving jab, is clearly in excellent physical condition, doesn't visibly get tired even going into the late rounds, throws lots of punches, and is throwing shots with excellent punching form. Walcott was clearly on top of his game for his first fight with Marciano.



    "in the 1st fight, walcott went right into marciano knowing he was gonna win. walcott displayed agrression hes never showed before. walcott let his hands go in the marciano fight more than any other fight. walcott showed how good of a puncher he was when he let his hands go and showed his true aggression. Walcotts confidence was at its peak, there was nothing that was going to stop him. any other heavyweight in the world would have crumbled to walcotts power that night. however, walcott was dealing with a brick wall who threw bricks back at you. all the things in walcotts career he was accused of not displaying enough of, he displayed it all in this fight. this is why i think walcotts best fight was against marciano." - my father

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Elmer:

    Joe fought the fight of his life against Rock the 1st time but yes, he was past his prime. Much like Leornard & Hearns whenthey fought the 2nd time. Both were past their salad days but put up one helluva fight.

    When Joe won the title from Ezz he hit him with one of those one in a million shots like Sugar Ray's shocking one punch KO of Fullmer when he was well past his prime.

    Athletes in the 50's with a few freakish examples like Moore, Robinson, Pascual Perez, usually hit the wall at around 30. The same applied to athletes in other sports like baseball, football, whatever ...

    The fact Joe could winh the title at 37 & then defend it in a great heavyweight war against Rock is the equivelant today of George Foreman winning back the heavyweight title after takina a beating for 10 1/2 rounds at the age of 46.

    Nutrition & training are so different now that a 38 year old Lennox Lewis still being a viable heavyweight champ at 38 is not considerd remarkable at all today.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by GorDoom
    Elmer:

    Joe fought the fight of his life against Rock the 1st time but yes, he was past his prime. Much like Leornard & Hearns whenthey fought the 2nd time. Both were past their salad days but put up one helluva fight.

    When Joe won the title from Ezz he hit him with one of those one in a million shots like Sugar Ray's shocking one punch KO of Fullmer when he was well past his prime.

    Athletes in the 50's with a few freakish examples like Moore, Robinson, Pascual Perez, usually hit the wall at around 30. The same applied to athletes in other sports like baseball, football, whatever ...

    The fact Joe could winh the title at 37 & then defend it in a great heavyweight war against Rock is the equivelant today of George Foreman winning back the heavyweight title after takina a beating for 10 1/2 rounds at the age of 46.

    Nutrition & training are so different now that a 38 year old Lennox Lewis still being a viable heavyweight champ at 38 is not considerd remarkable at all today.

    GorDoom
    - you do know what walcott was dominating ezzard until the knockout. it was not a lucky punch. so are u implying charles was knocked out by a past his prime walcott?




    well i respectfully disagree,



    ur comparing fighters like 89 hearns, leonard 46 year old foreman who LOOKED SHOT and totally finished physically to a fighter like walcott who was in as good as shape and looked physically and mentally fit as ever in first marciano fight. walcott at 38 IS NOT LIKE OTHER FIGHTERS AT 38.


    are u saying a 34 year old walcott was past his prime when he fought joe louis?


    when was walcotts prime then?

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    the 1951 walcott would have destroyed the 1994 foreman.


    to compare a fat peice of shit who was 10x slower, 40lb overweight, 45 years old, less powerful than his prime version to a 37 year old 195lb CHIZZLED, late bloomer, right around his best fighting weight, as fast and powerful as ever jersey joe walcott is a blasamaphy


    walcotts best fighting years were late 40s-early 50s


    foremans best fighting years were early 70s



    yet ur comparing a 20 years past his prime foreman to jersey joe??

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Of course I'm not comparing that Walcott v that Foreman. Re-read what I wrote: I was comparing their feats at such an advanced age for their era's which in both cases is remarkable.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by GorDoom
    Of course I'm not comparing that Walcott v that Foreman. Re-read what I wrote: I was comparing their feats at such an advanced age for their era's which in both cases is remarkable.

    GorDoom

    agreed. what makes walcotts acheivement amazing is how he never gave up. he kept plugging away for that title and FINALLY on the 5th try he got it!


    in reality, walcott got it on the first attempt but was robbed vs louis

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    the 1951 walcott would have destroyed the 1994 foreman.


    to compare a fat peice of shit who was 10x slower, 40lb overweight, 45 years old, less powerful than his prime version to a 37 year old 195lb CHIZZLED, late bloomer, right around his best fighting weight, as fast and powerful as ever jersey joe walcott is a blasamaphy
    My, my, looks like we have a case of hero worship here.

    Joe was a fine, tricky fighter, but Foreman was a monster at any age, and his major weakness in his comeback was footspeed which was a step short when he needed to cut the ring on a wounded fighter.

    If Joe tried to fight Foreman like he fought Rocky or Louis, he wouldn't last 6 rds. It's debatable if Joe could implement a hit and run strategy over the complete distance without being caught eventually at age 37.

    Let's remember that George deliberately abandoned his jab in the Moorer fight to lure Moorer within range. George's jab might be enough to KO Walcott. George was knocking back much bigger fighters than Walcott with his jab alone. Walcott looked real good against a poorly prepared Louis, but lacked the consistency to ever beat Foreman without a one off perfect performance. In otherwords, George would be a lopsided favorite at any age to beat Joe.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Walcott was not in his physical prime against Louis , Charles or Marciano. He was in his career prime. He finally had the opportunities to consistantly train and dedicate himself to the game based on his first Louis bout performance. If he had the same opportunity ten years earlier he might have gone down as an even more outstanding fighter.

    His KO of Charles was like hitting lotto. Can you name another major name Walcott KO'ed at this time of his career? He was not dominating Charles at this point but he was fighting a better fight than in the previous two.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto Aqui
    My, my, looks like we have a case of hero worship here.

    Joe was a fine, tricky fighter, but Foreman was a monster at any age, and his major weakness in his comeback was footspeed which was a step short when he needed to cut the ring on a wounded fighter.

    If Joe tried to fight Foreman like he fought Rocky or Louis, he wouldn't last 6 rds. It's debatable if Joe could implement a hit and run strategy over the complete distance without being caught eventually at age 37.

    Let's remember that George deliberately abandoned his jab in the Moorer fight to lure Moorer within range. George's jab might be enough to KO Walcott. George was knocking back much bigger fighters than Walcott with his jab alone. Walcott looked real good against a poorly prepared Louis, but lacked the consistency to ever beat Foreman without a one off perfect performance. In otherwords, George would be a lopsided favorite at any age to beat Joe.


    so u are telling me a 45 year old foreman who got his ears boxed off by michael moorer, axel shulz, and alex stewart would beat jersey joe walcott? all these guys were no where near the skill level of a joe walcott and you know it. walcott would box circles around a 1990s foreman. a prime foreman knocks walcott out, but the 1990s foreman would get shutout by walcott.


    a 90s foreman showed he had trouble with slick boxers, yet u pick him over one of the greatest ring technicians in heavyweight history?



    i have walcott vs 6'5 200lb hein tein hoff on tape- the way walcott schools this undefeated giant is genuis. walcott completley chops him down to size and uses his ring smarts, and tools to baffle the much larger man. he hits him with sneaky rights that hein ten has no clue where there coming from. walcott knew how to fight the big men.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by HE Grant
    Walcott was not in his physical prime against Louis , Charles or Marciano. He was in his career prime. He finally had the opportunities to consistantly train and dedicate himself to the game based on his first Louis bout performance. If he had the same opportunity ten years earlier he might have gone down as an even more outstanding fighter.

    His KO of Charles was like hitting lotto. Can you name another major name Walcott KO'ed at this time of his career? He was not dominating Charles at this point but he was fighting a better fight than in the previous two.

    true but i consider that career prime his prime since he was a better fighter from 1947-52 than ever. also walcott was still incredibly physically fit, his reflexes were sharp, he was a chizzled 195lb, he had very fast legs and handspeed.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Walcott laid down in the rematch. That's the reason Rocky beat him so easily.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffR
    Walcott laid down in the rematch. That's the reason Rocky beat him so easily.

    what do u mean laid down? like took a dive?

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Walcott was definately an exceptional fighter for a man in his late thirties. His problems that showed against Charles and Marciano were that he could not keep up a sustained attack because of concern over tiring out. There are limits.

    Walcott beat Marcinao's face in during the first half of the bout ... Rocky really took a beating...I cannot help but feel a younger Walcott could have maintained a superior pace and beat Rocky all together. Rocky to his credit did wear Joe down but the guy was 38 for God's sake.

    As far as Walcott vs 42 year old George, I see Joe easily out boxing him...only George's jab might have given him a few problems but not much.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by HE Grant
    Walcott was definately an exceptional fighter for a man in his late thirties. His problems that showed against Charles and Marciano were that he could not keep up a sustained attack because of concern over tiring out. There are limits.

    Walcott beat Marcinao's face in during the first half of the bout ... Rocky really took a beating...I cannot help but feel a younger Walcott could have maintained a superior pace and beat Rocky all together. Rocky to his credit did wear Joe down but the guy was 38 for God's sake.

    As far as Walcott vs 42 year old George, I see Joe easily out boxing him...only George's jab might have given him a few problems but not much.

    a younger walcott never showed he could fight like the way he did vs marciano. part of the reason walcott did so well vs rocky was he showed aggresion he never showed before, and he let his hands go like he never did before. walcott went right after marciano trying to knock him out, walcott never did that before. i think walcott showed just how good of a fighter he was when he decided to play the offensive role and let his hands go.


    another big thing PEOPLE FAIL TO FORGET, rocky lost 3 rounds cause HE WAS BLIND! this was right around the time rocky was doing well and was coming off a big round, then suddenly he goes blind. it might have been a different fight had he not been blinded.


    but walcott definiltey maintained a incredible pace, walcott dominated rounds 11 and 12 and hurt marciano in round 11. so i certainly didnt see any signs of walcott slowing down.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    what do u mean laid down? like took a dive?
    Ah, yea. Laid down at the first opportunity, took his paycheck and went home. I don't think there was a respected sportswriter at ringside that night who didn't leave Chicago Stadium suspicious of Walcott's performance. Or lack thereof.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffR
    Ah, yea. Laid down at the first opportunity, took his paycheck and went home. I don't think there was a respected sportswriter at ringside that night who didn't leave Chicago Stadium suspicious of Walcott's performance. Or lack thereof.

    marciano hit walcott with a very hard right hand, theres no way walcott took a dive. watch the film, u can clearly see the huge uppercut marciano landed.


    walcott may have gave up, but he didnt take a dive, he got hit with a legite KO punch.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    "marciano hit walcott with a very hard right hand....."

    About like that pulverizing right that Ali landed on Liston in their second fight.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    i figured joe walcot thought he had fought the fight of his life in the first fight and almost got killed. before the second fight he had time to think about pissing blood and being brutaly knocked out while failing to keep the rock off him. when he felt more of the same was on the way i think he just said f--k it!
    greg

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffR
    "marciano hit walcott with a very hard right hand....."

    About like that pulverizing right that Ali landed on Liston in their second fight.


    then u havnt watched the fight my friend. they show the punch in slow motion from a perfect camera angle and u can clearly see its a HUGE right uppercut landed by marciano.


    THIS IS A FACT, not an opinion. if u deny this, then u have not seen the slow motion replay camera





    the ali-liston II fight was a feather fist tap, marciano-walcott II KO punch was a hard right uppercut

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    Quote Originally Posted by gregbeyer
    i figured joe walcot thought he had fought the fight of his life in the first fight and almost got killed. before the second fight he had time to think about pissing blood and being brutaly knocked out while failing to keep the rock off him. when he felt more of the same was on the way i think he just said f--k it!
    greg

    good post, i agree greg.

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    Greg

    I agree as well.

    But Elmer, look at what Greg is saying.

    Walcott's effort after getting dropped in the rematch, IMO was not legit. A good, but hardly great or devastating, shot put him down and IMO he made a decision to NOT go through what he went through in the original.

    It was a solid punch that put Joe down, but not anything that SHOULD have kept him down (I feel the same about Lewiston, ME). And yes, Ringside reporters were VERY suspect of Walcotts performance, as well they should. It was lame.

    It seems to me, that this is what JeffR is saying here.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 04-17-2006 at 09:52 AM.

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    Re: Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

    yes but ali did not hit listen hard at all, film proves it was like a feather fisted tap.


    however u can clearly see on the marciano-walcott II replay that marciano hiit walcott with a very hard right uppercut, the punch landed much harder than ali's did on listen.

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    Solid

    But Not Hard enough to have stopped Walcott, IMO.

    And I think Ali's punch on Liston simply was a punch Sonny didn't see and while not very hard, it caught him square and put him down. THe controversy for THAT fight, should be on Liston's rolling around theatrics and his horribly lame acting when he got to one knee and rolled over again. Not the punch. The focus for what is obvious IMO, is misplaced on the punch.

    Marciano Walcott II is the same. Rocky's punch was solid enough to have caught a cold Walcott and put him down. But it CERTAINLY did not carry enough pop to have stopped him. He could and SHOULD have gotten up.

    Walcott chose not to. Simply becuase he didn't want to go through what was inevitably in store for him.

    Hawk

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