Rocky beatdowns in the rematches

[hawk5ins]

Pg 233 of Everett Skeehan's book on Marciano: "it was discovered that Marciano's punches had BROKEN blood vessles and DAMAGED bones in his (LaStarza) arms."

Mr. Skeehan's book is wonderfully written and his hyperbole of the fights makes his piece a fantastic read. But much of the hyperbole is just that. The reason he didn't cross the line and say Broken blood vessles AND BROKEN Bones in his arms is becuase it simply isn't true.

The word damaged can mean just about anything. Lastarza had bruises on his arms and broken Blood vessles. No broken arms.

When ever I read something that seems a bit much, such as the above, I try to get a secondary source validation. You won't on this account, becuase A-Skeehan never made the statment about broken bones and B-It never happened.

Hawk

[TKO11]

Hawk - my dis to the Mongoose IS because I'm Canadian. We hate anything to do with "geese" (or as they say in America, "gooses"). Things shit bigger than dogs. On the car. Driving on the highway. Breaking the windshield.

Is this "broken/damaged arm/blood vessel" thing anything like you having your Coke, Hawk?

[hawk5ins]

And Methinks T is on to something here about my Coca/cola.

There seems to ME to have been a bit of mixing of things up here as to what was damaged and what was broken.

How does this relate to the soft drink Coke and ME?

Well to share with everyone:

About 10 years ago, I worked at a financial services company in Downtown Boston. And I wasn't a big coffee drinker and probably drank about 4 Cokes a day. So I was known for drinking it.

I also was known by most of my co-workers by the nickname that I end each post with: Hawk. It's not very original, I agree and it's origin is simply the lopping off of the last 3 letter of my last name: Hawkins....Hawk.

Well one day, everyone in my group (15 or so of us) was invited to a meeting in one of the conference rooms. I was one of the last one's to enter and when I did, I of course had my beverage of choice in my hand.

As I was making my way to a seat at the conference table, one female co-worker of mine thought she would take the opportunity to make fun of me drinking ANOTHER Coke.

So what her intentions were in what she was going to jab me with was: "So Hawk, I see you have your Coke."

It didn't come out that way for her unfortunately. What she siad was: "So Cock, I see you...."

Needless to say she turned bright red, the room went hysterical, and I adopted a new nickname for no ill intentioned reasons.

Broken Blood vessles and Damaged arm was morphed into a broken arm. Just like Hawk and Coke...well, no need to continue with any vulgarities.

C..er' Hawk.

[JeffR]

I have read reports of the fight from more than one source written at the time it occurred. No mention of LaStarza having broken bones. In addition, I talked to LaStarza a couple of times back in the early ‘90s. He told me that he had some broken blood vessels in his forearms after that fight. He mentioned nothing about any bone damage, broken bones, etc.

[Elmer Ray]

i am digging through all my newspaper reports and books right now


heres one




Bill Libby in his 1971 "The Story of a Champion" described Macciano's fight with Roland LaStarza's as "Marciano's gloved fists broke blood vessels and bones in LaStarza's arms and elbows. First the arms grew heavy, then they began to ache awfully, then they grew numb. As the relentless battle wore on, LaStarza found it harder and harder to raise his arms, much less jab with them or punch with them. His hands lowered, his defense dissipated, Marciano began to punish him about the head. LaStarza began to take a terrible beating."

[Elmer Ray]

as i am reading through the reports it seems the correct term is LaStarza had chipped bones in his elbows and broken blood vessals that turned to hardened clots in his forearms


isnt a chipped bone like a break?

[hawk5ins]

Or rather a misintepretation of the statement.

The arms were not broken. The bloodvessles were.

What is the exact source of the elbow "bone chips"?

Hawk

[kikibalt]

A chipped bone is not like a broken bone, or a broke arm, just talk to my nephew who is a doctor.

Frank B.

[Elmer Ray]

lastarza suffered chipped bones in his elbows. that is the correct term. if that is not a break, then wut is it?

[TKO11]

"lastarza suffered chipped bones in his elbows. that is the correct term. if that is not a break, then wut is it?"

It's a chip. I've been trying to break a big rock out in my back yard to extend the patio. I can chip that thing like crazy. Can't break it though.

Take it form someone who's had 21 bone chips removed, and also had broken bones. They are not nearly the same thing.

[hawk5ins]

It looks like Elmer has put "Roland Lastarza Broken Arm" and a few hits come up.

There is nothing reputable that has ever made mention of this. No reliable source you can hang your hat on.

Hawk

[thumper3852]

A guy can sure learn a lot on this site..............

[Sharkey]

Not nearly enough.

[kikibalt]

Thumper stick around we are all learning from Elmer.

A fighter would be able to fight with bone chippe's, but not with a broken arm.

Frank B.

[hawk5ins]

That you can get from one of these "reliable" sources by doing a Google on "Lastarza and Broken Arm":

From Eastside Boxing by James Sadler Aug 31. 05:

"Marciano had an amazing chin. He was only floored twice in his career, and was rarely hurt. The two times he was dropped, were for a three and a two count, by two great punchers. Ring Magazine's #4 All Time Great Puncher Archie Moore floored Rocky with a perfect right hand as Marciano came in, missing a punch, with one foot off the floor, and it landed right on the chin. But Rocky was up within two seconds and back fighting. Jersey Joe Walcott, also rated by the Ring as an all time great puncher, floored Rocky with one of his classic left hooks, but was surprised to see that when he turned around, Marciano was staring straight back at him, on his feet. Rocky roared; "I'll get you, you son of a bitch!"

The 6'4" 220lbs Carmine Vingo, a good prospect with a dynamite punch, staggered Rocky a couple of times, but never managed to put him down. It was a great slugfest, and Rocky fought back hard - in the sixth round Vingo was put into a coma, courtesy of a savage left hook to the jaw."

"Roland LaStarza, an acomplished mover-boxer that was beating anyone and everyone, Rocky beat him twice - the first a controversial decision, the second left LaStarza in hospital with a broken arm, several blood clots and requiring surgery."

"Rocky even broke Roland LaStarza's arms! LaStarza needed surgery to repair the chips and cracks on his elbows, and to repair his smashed blood vessels."

Oh My!

Hawk

[kikibalt]

Just read James Sadler, and i think thats our Elmer real name

[Elmer Ray]

Just read James Sadler, and i think thats our Elmer real name

no thats not me. james sadler made mistakes i would never make like he thought carmine vingo was 220lb when vingo was actually around 190lb.

[Elmer Ray]

fact is lastarza did chip bones in his elbows. so whoever claimed thats all rocky did was break lastarzas blood vessels was wrong. i was wrong in saying he broke lastarzars arms. so we were both wrong.


however its clear the injuries rocky gave to roland lastarza were sickening.

i once saw a picture of lastarzas arms after the fight. you could see these huge bruises(which turned out to be hardened blood clots) that looked disgusting.


lastarza II was rockys best fight on film IMHO

[hawk5ins]

""Marciano's gloved fists broke blood vessels and bones in LaStarza's arms and elbows. First the arms grew heavy, then they began to ache awfully, then they grew numb. As the relentless battle wore on, LaStarza found it harder and harder to raise his arms, much less jab with them or punch with them. His hands lowered, his defense dissipated, Marciano began to punish him about the head. LaStarza began to take a terrible beating." Bill Libby, "The Story of a Champion", 1971." (Has anyone actually read this book? Has anyone ever seen it mentioned as a must read book or listed as an authority on the subject? Please.)

This was gotten form the same google search that came from a site dedicated to Marciano, are essentially the only two sources that produce this "broke LaStarza's arms" sillyness. The Bone Chip nonsense is pretty new as well. Agian, other than these two silly worship pieces, where has anyone read this?

These are NOT reputable or reliable sources. This is hyperbole that is generated by hysterical school girls.

Don't stake your reputation on the silly writings of hero worshipers. Rely on sources that can be backed up as something worth the paper they are written on.

Hawk

[Elmer Ray]

after i finish this essay im writing i will send u some new york times articles, hold ur horses bud.

[hawk5ins]

List reputable sources from where you get this information or you essentially are dinging your own rep.

That was a friendly suggestion.

Ignore it or take it.

Hawk

[JeffR]

“fact is lastarza did chip bones in his elbows. so whoever claimed thats all rocky did was break lastarzas blood vessels was wrong. i was wrong in saying he broke lastarzars arms. so we were both wrong.”

The fact is that LaStarza had the bone chips in his left elbow before the second Marciano fight. Again, this is something that was widely known at the time. LaStarza told me that he had surgery on the elbow before the rematch, but it was unsuccessful in removing all of the chips. But the myth of Marciano says that LaStarza had no such problems before the fight, it was Rocky’s ferocious attack that left him battered and broken.

[thumper3852]

In all honesty wouldn't it have just been sufficient to say that Rocky pounded the shit out of LaStarza? Obviously, he certainly did. It doesn't add anything to the Rock's accomplishments to include that he broke blood vessels or bones...I'm sure LaStarza felt like he ran into a freight train the next day. Every fighter that fought him had to acknowledge that he was a punishing fighter and tough as nails.

[hagler04]

This argument has gotten a little ridiculous. Even if Marciano decapitated Roland's head into the 4th row in a rematch, it doesn't take away from the fact that LaStarza could have very well gotten a decision win in their first bout. Sure Rocky was a little green. So was Louis when he beat Baer and Uzcudun, and Frazier when he beat Bonavena, Chuvalo, Jones, and Machen (and that was before Joe had 20 fights). I see more than a couple of those fighters beating LaStarza.

But most importantly, wasn't LaStarza, despite having more fights, green himself? Look at his resume for crying out loud, not a name opponent on there before Rocky. Archie Moore at his 'HW prime' . . .what the hell does that mean? Doesn't make much sense since Moore was a great light HW and even at HW (of 39 years of age) was beating a bunch of light HWs (the powerful but limited Nino Valdez being an exception) Harold Johnson, Joey Maxim . . .which HW threat did Moore beat right before facing Marciano for the title? A blown-up Bobo Olson, whose prime was at 160 lbs.
Marciano was a great HW and extremely tough, but he benefitted from being in a transition era in the division and his best wins were against guys past their fighting best. End of story

[Elmer Ray]

"I see more than a couple of those fighters beating LaStarza. "


lastarza beats all of those fighters except machen which would be a toss up. chuvalo was too slow for roland, and bonevena always had trouble with slick defensive boxers(ala jimmy ellis)

nd even at HW (of 39 years of age) was beating a bunch of light HWs (the powerful but limited Nino Valdez being an exception) Harold Johnson, Joey Maxim . . .which HW threat did Moore beat right before facing Marciano for the title? A blown-up Bobo Olson, whose prime was at 160 lbs.

which heavyweight threat? how bout # 1 ranked nino valdes 4 MONTHS prior to fighting marciano.



archie moore beat better heavyweights than nino valdes. archie moore stopped # 2 ranked 6'2 210lb bob baker one of the best heavyweight contenders of the 1950s. archie moore also SHUTOUT hall of fame heavyweight and one of the best heavyweight contenders of the 1950s # 3 ranked clarence henry.

archie moore literally wiped out the top dangerous black contenders.


* i wouldnt dismiss that victory over harold johnson. harold johnson had a lot of success at heavyweight too. even a far past his prime harold johnson in 1961 beat eddie machen, a highly ranked all time heavyweight contender.

imagine what a prime moore or johnson would do to machen






roland lastarza has a decieving record u cant go by his record. outside of one embarassing loss to unknown rocky jones and a loss to dan bucceroni which lastarza both avenged......lastarza beat everyone in his PRIME outside of rocky marciano. fact is........ lastarza never got any fights with top big names outside of marciano becuse of lastarzas manager, jimmy "fats" deangelo. u can thank his manager jimmy fats de angelo for his lack of "big fights". the guy was a horribly inexperienced manager who had no connections, and it got to the point where he told roland he wanted to sell him to a manager with more connections but roland refused because deangelo was his cloee friend and roland couldnt do that to his firend. in a way, roland hurt his career by keeping fats deangelo. fact is, he was never able to get any big fights outside of marciano because of deangelo. but if u watch lastarza one film he was an incredible defensive fighter with very solid technicial boxing skills who lacked a killer instinct and powerful offense. lastarza was never the same after that 2nd marciano fight in which he took a horrible beating, and he started losing to nobodies shortly afterward. but i have no doubt had roland got fights with the bob bakers, nino valdes, heinz neauhas's he would have beat them all. I imagine those big slowe sluggers were hestitant to make a match with a higly skilled fast defensive boxer like lastarza. but roland proved in marciano I and II he was very good. I watch him on film and think he had the boxing skills and defense to be tough in other eras. roland may have been the best defensive heavyweight of marcianos era. he had a very modern style, hands held high, very smooth and polished.

I rate roland in my top 20 best heavyweight contenders never to win a title





as for who did he beat? well he argueably beat a green but still very good rocky marciano. also lastarza beat # 3 ranked heavyweight contender dan bucceroni and # 9 ranked cesar brion. lastarza avenged the loss to bucceroni by knocking him down 5 times and winning 8 out of the 10 rounds showing that the loss to bucceroni was a fluke. bucceroni was a good fighter too. roland also beat top 10 ranked rex layne right after layne beat ezzard charles. he dominated layne, even though one idiotic judge scored it for layne.

[PeteLeo]

Just a quick note because someone above asked about this:
I have read Libby's book about Marciano ("The Story of a Champion"), though it was long, long ago while prowling around in the library. I remember little about it other than it was interesting and was written for grade school level readers. Oh, and it was one of the first books about boxing that I came across which featured some honest speculation about the mental toll/brain damage that comes hand in hand with boxing. Until then, I figured that anything that didn't kill you in the ring could be fully recovered from between fights.
But this is a real book. PeteLeo.

[hawk5ins]

I didn't doubt it was a real book. I questioned if it was a realiable or credible source.

I've never seen it referenced anywhere as a source that was used to back any Marciano data with. It certainly is never listed in any books that I know of bibliography section.

I viewed it as an obscure book that this Marciano website founder had in his library, probably since a kid as you state it was aimed at grade school level readers (Still have my Jim Rice and Dr. J equivilant books. Nice pics. I'd never quote them though!) and was trying to pass it off as a legit source.

It IS a book. But would anyone utilize it as a reliable source of data? Having never heard of the book and only reading the one quote that was posted on this website and add to that the insight you just gave me Pete, I would say no.

Hawk

[phlboxarc]

People forget that when Marciano boxed LaStarza the first time it was Rocky's first fight since the traumatic Carmine Vingo episode. Rocky was deeply affected by that and considered retiring from boxing. Of course Marciano would be somewhat tenative and gunshy the first time back and I think that is the only reason that Roland make a good effort against him.

That being said, I think LaStarza was one of the most over rated heavyweights in history. His reputation was built on the first Rocky fight. Although he had a long winning streak at the beginning of his career, there are no tough names on his record. After the first Marciano fight he could have forced the issue by meeting top fighters. He refused fights with Charles, Clarence Henry, Bob Baker etc. Lost and avenged to overstuffed lt.heavy Dan Bucceroni and to my very close friend but only a lt. heavy Rocky Jones and looked terrible against Jones in the rematch.

The Jones win and a victory over the faded Rex Layne gave him the credentials to meet Rocky for the title. A fight I am told Rocky was more intent on giving Roland a beating for all of the talk that he "was afraid" to meet LaStarza again than KOing him early which I believe he could have done easily.

Look at LaStarza's record there are no tough names on it except for Marciano.

[Elmer Ray]

he didnt refuse fights with henry, baker, etc it was lastarzas manager jimmy fats deangelo that screwed lastarza out of getting big fights. he also scrwed lastarza out of getting fights in the garden when he slammed the door in al weills face, and al weill went out of his way to make sure fats deangelo would not get another appearence in the garden again.

* dan bucceroni was a solid fighter, same size as clarence henry, and he was # 3 ranked in the world. in the rematch lastarza dominated him knocking him down 5 times winning 8 out of the 10 rounds


* how bad did he look against jones in the rematch? he won 9 out of the 10 rounds thats not too bad.

- roland also beat rex layne when layne was still good coming off a win over charles.


btw, i think lastarza would have beat all those guys u claimed he was afraid of. i have baker and valdes on film, lastarza would have boxed both there ears off. clarence henry would have been a tough fight, could have gone either way.


* didnt gerry cooney make his legend off of holmes? yet everyone thinks highly of gerry.


fact is roland beat everyone he faced in his prime outside of marciano(though many thought he beat marciano). lastarza is one of those fighters who looks very good on film, and rates well head to head.


dont forget many thought roland won the 1950 rocky marciano fight. marciano was green, but even the 1950 marciano was still a fantastic fighter better than baker, henry, valdes.

[Elmer Ray]

in a way its too bad we never got to see perhaps the best defensive heavyweight of that era roland lastarza square off against more top contenders like valdes , charles, moore, baker, henry, walls, etc. he missed out on some big fights. fat deangle really screwed lastarza out of getting more world class fights. but lastarza proved how legite he was in the marciano fights. i have no doubt after seeing him on film, he was one of the best heavyweight contenders of marcianos era.