Tommy Burns vs Joe Choynski

[don1234]

Talk about old school. Old school was new school when these contemporaries plied their trade. The underrated Burns, resourceful, good whiskers and a respectable punch vs Choynski, among the harder hitting small heavyweights of his era. Expect a close fight, with the banger Choynski tasting the canvas while peppering the upright Burns with rocking shots throughout the contest. Too close for one fight - make it a trilogy.

[apollack]

I think Burns was too technically sound and versatile, had very good condition, underrated strength and power at heavy, could box on the outside or punch on the inside, and over many rounds would earn a decision, if not late stoppage.

[PD99]

I've read a reasonable amount about Choynski yet I still feel that I probably know too little about him.

There is the glowing praise afforded him by the likes of Corbett, Fitz, Jeffries and Johnson (the big 4 in and around that era), particularly in regards to Joe's punch in both relative and absolute terms. However, Choynksi did lose to both Corbett (relatively inexperienced) and Fitz by KO while drawing with a green Jeffries and knocking out an apparently green Jack Johnson.

It would seem that Joe couldn't have found better men to testity to his worth than those who later held the heavyweight crown but the most noteworthy performances were perhaps the draw against Jeffries and the actual KO victory over Johnson. Certainly, it would pay each of those men well to hold Joe in high regard in order to raise their own stock or, at least in Johnson's case, legitimise their loss.

Certainly, Joe fought them all, including Sharkey who also got the better of Joe.

Perhaps the most striking feature of Choynski's career is his relative success against larger opposition even if it didn't equate to outright success and in some cases, v Corbett, Fitz and Sharkey, Joe wasn't necessarily spotting a huge amount in weight but he still fell short all the same.

All in all, I find it difficult to reconcile the high praise for Joe with his record otherwise. A record apparently consisting of some non too startling results as well as some none too flattering losses. Really not too sure what to make of Joe but would be interested in a better break down than I have ever read or be better educated on the man.

With what I do know, I suspect that an aggressively busy go forward type like Burns, with a punch and the ability to land that punch at a reasonable rate would give Choynski a lot of trouble. From what I've read, Choynksi might slug more than he would box with Burns and the vaunted power might shake Burns at times but over say, 20 rounds, I think Burns would prevail with a good possibility of TKO or KO in the latter stages and I wouldn't discount a KO somewhat earlier than that.

Just finished writing this and saw what Adam posted.

Even with my much lesser informed opinion, it still looks like we kinda sort agree, at least on the outcome in this case.

[apollack]

I'd also add that Burns had the chin to take Choynski's punch and continue on, so even assuming Joe nails him with his vaunted power and possibly hurts or drops him, Burns is going to get out of trouble and fight on. Durability was another trait that Burns had.

[PD99]

Agreed. Burns was a tough rooster for sure. Carried all the way or not (I might attribute some small measure of inherent caution on Johnson's part - but Jack did easily dump Tommy twice in the first rd), Tommy gamely absorbed tremendous punishment.

In the final stages of their fight, Johnson is winging for all he is worth and Burns, while staggering, somehow remains upright. NOTE - the point at which the film is frozen in most presentations of the Burns-Johnson fight is identified to be the EXACT point in which the police intervened and shut the cameras down. The last punch seen is a right cross and Burns "appears" to be heading toward the canvas for all money.

HOWEVER, I have a version of the fight which shows that very same sequence continue a bit beyond the "freeze" point most often presented. AFTER Johnson lands the right cross, Burns does not in fact fall but somehow remains upright to absorb several more blows. I think the packagers of the film (Jacobs/Clayton?) arbitrarily chose a point to stop the film and suggest that it was THE end of filming for dramatic effect - certainly, it appears the END for Burns. Of course the fight was eventually stopped and the filming eventually halted (there is a STILL pic of Burns on the deck in the 14th which came AFTER filming did stop).

If I ever see the version of the Burns-Johnson fight that I have appear on Ytube I will post it and pin point the time when most other films are frozen.

PS - Adam, any possible estimate on when the Johnson book might be completed? Thanks.

[apollack]

2013. If you have any stills you are willing to allow me to use, please e-mail or pm me. Thanks.

[PD99]

Thanks Adam. Looking forward to it.

Unfortunately, I don't have any stills that are actually mine to authorise their use. I posted some links to some less often seen Johnson pics on another thread - they are held by the National Library of Australia. I don't know if you saw them but here are the links again:-

http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi...eferercode=web

http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi...eferercode=web

http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi...eferercode=web

I can keep a look out for similarly rare shots if it is any help.

[apollack]

No problem. I already have a ton of photos, probably too many, actually. But always willing to take a look at more if available. Thanks.

[PD99]

Just a note - I was refreshing on the Burns-Johnson fight and there is absolutely nothing at the original Rushcutter's Bay site to commemorate the historic event that took place there. Poor show, imo.