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Thread: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

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    Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Here is the big hole in all this voter fraud bullshit for me. If your an illegal alien or someone with something to hide, why in the hell
    would you register to vote? It puts you on the voter lists & puts a bulls eye on you if your trying to keep a low profile. Also makes you available for jury duty.

    Why the hell would somebody illegal do that???

    GorDoom


    Is Voter Fraud a Fraud?
    by Eliza Shapiro Jul 19, 2012 4:45 AM EDT
    States pushing voter-ID laws say they need to crack down on fraud. But how often does someone impersonate a voter or cast multiple ballots? Almost never, reports Eliza Shapiro.

    For all the talk about the need for voter-identification laws, you’d think millions of Americans were impersonating dead people to get their candidates elected, or casting multiple ballots after breakfast, lunch, and dinner.


    Clay Jackson, The Advocate Messenger / AP Photos

    Not even close.

    Voter fraud—the foundational premise for controversial new voter-ID laws—is far more rare in the U.S. than ID proponents would have us believe. The Department of Justice doesn’t even compile figures of how many people have been convicted of fraud in the last decade, and says prosecutions have focused on tampering by election officials and local politicians, not on voters themselves. A New York Times investigation found that between 2002 and 2005 only 96 people were indicted for federal election-related crimes, and 70 of them were convicted. Of those, 41 were campaign employees and government officials, and just five were voters who cast multiple ballots.

    Yet impersonation is the only type of election crime that strict new voter-identification laws can actually prevent. Since 2011, 10 states have passed such laws, which typically require people to show a photo ID when they vote. Before the 2010 interim elections, only two states—Indiana and Georgia—had voter ID laws on the books.

    Lee Rowland, counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice’s Democracy Program, says the public’s confidence in their democracy is “undermined” by these laws. “The real fraud,” she says, “is the extent to which fake stories about supposed fraud have been used to justify restrictive voter-ID laws.”

    According to the center, new photo-ID laws passed in the last legislative cycle since 2010 will make it more difficult for about 5 million Americans to vote. More than 21 million Americans do not have government-issued photo ID now necessary for voting in states like Florida and Pennsylvania (PDF).

    The question is who benefits if these people don’t—or can’t—vote. “It’s no coincidence that these laws are almost completely passed by Republicans,” says Tova Wang, a Senior Democracy Fellow at Demos, a nonpartisan policy think tank in New York. That’s because voters without photo ID tend to be young people, the elderly, and minority populations, particularly African-Americans, who tend to vote Democratic.

    “You’re more likely to get hit by lightning than to encounter voter fraud in Florida.”
    Republicans say it’s a nonpartisan issue about upholding the sanctity of the vote. “Americans of all political persuasions can agree that it is the integrity of the vote that safeguards the integrity of our democratic process,” says Kirsten Kukowski, a spokeswoman for the Republican National Committee. “When that integrity is compromised, we must act.”

    Last month, RNC Chairman Reince Priebus called new voter-ID laws “common-sense reform [that] is not partisan but practical.”

    Voter fraud was once a real issue in the U.S. During the Bleeding Kansas crisis of the 1850s, gangs intimidated voters into casting their ballots for and against the extension of slavery. But in the last 50 years or so, says Harvard historian Alexander Keyssar, voting fraud “hasn’t been a problem.” The mechanics of voting came under renewed scrutiny after the 2000 Florida election recount. Since then, “states have been vigilant not to be the next Florida,” says the Brennan Center’s Rowland. In an unexpected twist, this year, Florida itself might be “the next Florida,” she says.

    The state’s newly elected Republican governor, Rick Scott, signed a trifecta of new voting rules into law in May 2011 under House Bill 1355. “When you go out to vote, you want to make sure that the other individuals that are voting have a right to vote,” said Scott at the time.

    The bill addresses a handful of voting practices that critics say ultimately makes it harder for people to participate in elections. Groups that conduct registration drives, such as the League of Women Voters, now have to submit completed voter applications within 48 hours of filling them out, or face fines up to $1,000. People who move to a different county within the state are required to cast provisional ballots—historically counted only about half the time—if they fail to notify their local election board of their move before Election Day. And early voting, which helps people who, for various reasons, don’t vote on Election Day, is now restricted to the period between the 10th and third day before the general election. This includes the Sunday before Election Day, which in 2008 brought many African-Americans to the polls for church-voting drives known as “Souls to the Polls.”

    If fewer people vote early, polls could be inundated, says Ion Sancho, elections supervisor for Leon County, home to the state’s capital, Tallahassee. He says Florida doesn’t have enough polling locations to accommodate the 8 million or more voters expected to cast ballots in the general election. Sancho also says that in 2008, 13 percent of all new voter registrations came from third-party groups.

    Florida’s elections officials have been disseminating information about the new laws ahead of the November election, hoping to avoid a flashback to 2000 after a decade of relatively drama-free elections in the Sunshine State. But some fear the result of the new law will be vast numbers of voters disenfranchised—in a state where fraud is rare. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement has investigated 178 claims of election fraud since 2000. “You’re more likely to get hit by lightning than to encounter voter fraud in Florida,” says Sancho.

    A spokeswoman from Governor Scott’s office didn’t respond to requests for comment.

    Chris Cate, a spokesman at the Florida Department of State, says the new law has “improved accountability” in the voter-registration process.

    Others take a more global perspective. When HB 1355 was being argued in the state Senate last year, Republican Sen. Mike Bennett posed the question: “Do you read the stories about the people in Africa? The people in the desert, who literally walk two- and three-hundred miles so they can have the opportunity to do what we do, and we want to make it more convenient?” He continued, “This is a hard-fought privilege. This is something people die for. You want to make it convenient?”

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    There's YouTube video of a top Republican strategist--in 1980--telling Republicans THEN that their goal was for DECREASED voter participation, that the opposite works to their disadvantage and helps only Democrats. Due to the demographic changes in our country ahead. Even recently, Right-winger Ann Coulter was quoted as saying that she wished women and minorities couldn't vote, as this hurts Republicans. How fucking depraved. The real statistics reveal under twenty cases of proven voter fraud annually--nationwide. As they say, you have a much better chance of being hit by lightning than discovering a true case of voter fraud in the US.

    Now, we have the entire Republican party nationwide trying to reduce the voter rolls, with only one goal: to get Republicans elected. This is illegal. The Right will disenfranchise 5,000,000 LEGAL voters to, supposedly, root out the 10-20 cases of fraud occurring nationwide annually. If any idiot thinks this is for any other reason than to make Republicans win elections, I've got a bridge to sell. The Right will steal anything, and stealing elections with illegal tricks is their specialty. WHY is this happening NOW? Might it be that a black Democrat was elected president last time in a landslide?

    As to the following asshole and his comment, "Republican Sen. Mike Bennett posed the question: “Do you read the stories about the people in Africa? The people in the desert, who literally walk two- and three-hundred miles so they can have the opportunity to do what we do, and we want to make it more convenient?” He continued, “This is a hard-fought privilege. This is something people die for. You want to make it convenient?”"
    -- My response is, YES, it should be made damned convenient, just as other hard-fought-for things are now convenient: the right to bear arms for example (you can buy a gun at Wal Mart, or at a gun show without i.d. or background check), the right to life, the ability to buy groceries down the street instead of going hunting or foraging, religious liberty (which the Far Right sure as fuck wants to be convenient and in fact taxpayer-subsidized), making a phone call, having prescription drugs mailed to your home, having schools located close to communities, . . . there are a million examples.

    It is this sort of twisted Republican logic that shows you what liars these creeps are. HE (Bennett) wouldn't be inconvenienced to walk three blocks instead of using a car, but minorities should endure inconvenience and expense to get back the right to vote they already have, and, Asshole, ALREADY DIED FOR in the US. The far right will do ANYTHING to win an election, which is shown during every election, and most recently by Mitt Romney, who will reverse EVERY position he has on EVERYTHING to pander for votes. You can find video on Romney endorsing BOTH sides of any issue. Yet the Right will vote for him instead of any Democrat, no matter what. And the Right used to say, "character counts."

    Like they wanted Democrat Anthony Weiner to resign over merely phone sex or email sex, but Republican David Vitter, who frequented hookers, gets re-elected repeatedly by his Republican electorate.

    Hey, I've got a suggestion: if the Right wants to make the blacks and the poor work their butts off just for the right to vote, what say we get every disenfranchised voter to his/her local DMV (for the voter i.d. the Right requires) in a taxi or bus AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE. Since we taxpayers are already paying for churches that many of us don't want to pay for (yet churches have 100% tax exemptions, plus only Mormans are/were exempt from the military draft), how about taxpayers pay up to get poor voters their photo i.d. when it is convenient for these voters?

    Yeah, I know, that would be "big government." Gag me.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    whats the big deal about having ID to vote? I need ID to drive, rent a vehical, rent a friggin jet ski, even to get into the town pool but god forbid someone asks for a pic ID to vote - thats discrimination they may not be able to get to DMV. OMG

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Jlupi:

    Your being incredibly short sighted on this. For instance not everybody drives. I myself have never driven or had a driving license. & I know a lot of people who don't. What about older people & invalids who don't drive? How about college student who have picture ID's but they won't allow them?

    Is that right?

    This is supposed to be a democracy. EVERYBODY who is a citizen has a RIGHT to vote. This is simply to disenfranchise certain elements to block democratic votes. The Republicans have ADMITTED it. What proof do you need? This is America voting shouldn't be a fucking obstacle it should be something the government wants EVERYBODY to do.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Where is the concern that people who should have no say in picking our leaders, may well be having a say? After David Dinkins defeated Rudy Giuliani in their first contest, I believe it was the Daily News who interviewed a man who claimed to have voted three times. I am sure more than one person did that. Dinkins won by a tiny margin. What is the big dea about having to show ID? I had to show it at jury duty, in Florida when I bought a gun, when I went the bank to cash a check, when I got my passport, when I started my job, I could go on and on. You know and I know the more illegals who vote the better off it is for the Democrats. Voting is a right extended only to legal citizens. It simply is not for everyone. And yes, sometimes you have to prove that you have the right to do something.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino1 View Post
    Where is the concern that people who should have no say in picking our leaders, may well be having a say? After David Dinkins defeated Rudy Giuliani in their first contest, I believe it was the Daily News who interviewed a man who claimed to have voted three times. I am sure more than one person did that. Dinkins won by a tiny margin. What is the big dea about having to show ID? I had to show it at jury duty, in Florida when I bought a gun, when I went the bank to cash a check, when I got my passport, when I started my job, I could go on and on. You know and I know the more illegals who vote the better off it is for the Democrats. Voting is a right extended only to legal citizens. It simply is not for everyone. And yes, sometimes you have to prove that you have the right to do something.
    Yes, I share your concern that people who should have no say might vote; but this simply is not a problem any party needs to worry about, because it's not happening in the U.S.

    The "problem" is that voter fraud doesn't exist except for a tiny handful of cases. And with THAT excuse, the Republicans want to take the vote away from 5 million LEGAL voters.

    You do the math. Is is fair, right, or reasonable--you choose the word-- to take the vote away from 5 million LEGAL voters? Merely because a couple of dozen people have violated the law?

    No. It's not reasonable, it's not fair, it's not decent, and it's not right. It is merely an excuse so that the Republicans can achieve what they have long stated they wanted to achieve, voter suppression, because, as the Republicans have said for 32 years, the FEWER Americans that vote, the BETTER it is for Republicans.

    Dino, it IS a BIG deal having to obtain an i.d. when you are dirt poor, don't have a car, thus don't have a driver's license, or are too old to walk easily (if at all) and are living on a small fixed income . . . and the Righties sure do know it.

    The Righties have been at this strategy for so long--trying to disenfranchise blacks in the South, first with poll tests and poll taxes-- that when the Voting Rights Act came out in the mid-1960s, it said it was illegal to do what the Republicans are doing now-- trying to disenfranchise people for political gain.

    Dino, be fair: can you explain why, in states such as Texas, an acceptable i.d. per these Republican-drafted laws IS a gun license, but a college i.d. is UNACCEPTABLE. Please, just be fair-- because the obvious explanation is that the Repubs want gun owners to vote but not students, since gun owners tend to be Righties and students tend to vote Left.

    Dino, it is the political RIGHT who ALWAYS say we have "too many laws." Well, I will always agree that we shouldn't create laws that address non-existent problems AND at a cost of taking away the constitutional rights of millions of people.

    You wrote, "What is the big deal about having to show ID?" Well, if a Republican lawmaker who drafted or voted for one of these voter-restriction bills asked me that question, I'd say to him, "The big deal is that you people KNOW you are screwing 5 million POOR people, the majority of whom are minorities who vote Democratic-- and none of whom have broken any laws-- JUST so that YOU can steal elections, as you have tried to do in many elections every 2 years, going back for decades. It is a Republican strategy to disenfranchise blacks, as admitted to recently-- in a sworn affidavit-- by a Florida Republican official currently under indictment.

    Do you think it's a good policy for a political party to work to take away constitutional rights from people, based on their color, and based on which party they tend to vote for?

    I'd like to ask you another question, Dino: if you knew that the Republican party was writing laws to intentionally disenfranchise LEGAL voters by the MILLIONS, merely to keep them from voting Democratic-- would you be FOR this? Are your Republican leanings this extreme, that you would endorse this "hypothetical"? Because it is no hypothetical; it is what is happening for real, and some Republicans admit this publicly from time to time. Republican extremist idealogue (but a darling of Republicans nonetheless) commentator Ann Coulter has already said publicly something essentially identical: that she wished women didn't have the vote, then the Republicans could win more elections.

    Do you endorse this?

    You see, when I hear Republican lawmakers say, no, they "just want to eliminate voting improprieties," I am sure they are lying through their teeth. Any idiot knows you don't kill an ant with a nuclear bomb.

    The Republicans-- for the most part-- despite their anti-science viewpoint, are not idiots.
    Last edited by Michael Frank; 07-31-2012 at 04:28 PM.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    I suggested the following in an earlier post:

    "Hey, I've got a suggestion: if the Right wants to make the blacks and the poor work their butts off just for the right to vote, what say we get every disenfranchised voter to his/her local DMV (for the voter i.d. the Right requires) in a taxi or bus AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE. Since we taxpayers are already paying for churches that many of us don't want to pay for (yet churches have 100% tax exemptions, plus only Mormans are/were exempt from the military draft), how about taxpayers pay up to get poor voters their photo i.d. when it is convenient for these voters?"

    Does anyone here who endorses the new voter i.d. laws care to weigh in on the above comment? In other words, when you know your laws are meant to screw 5 million people who already obey the law, and make them travel and pay good money for photo i.d.'s they never needed in their entire lives, do you think maybe you could help them to comply with this encroachment on their constitutional rights-- an encroachment that your side created?

    Here's another question: since voter fraud laws are about the least-broken laws in America, can someone say WHY the Republicans are all over this issue NOW-- in the years 2009-2012??? I mean, if this basic function, voting, which has existed for hundreds of years in this nation, is somehow subject to widespread fraud, why only NOW have the Republicans decided to fix it with photo i.d. requirements-- we've had photography for at least 150 years . . . so why NOW?

    Might it be only because a black man was elected president of the United States WHEN A MAJORITY OF WHITES, PARTICULARLY A MAJORITY OF REPUBLICAN WHITES, voted against him, but he won anyway? This seems like the only plausible reason for the timing of these new voter i.d. laws.

    Repubs, disenfranchising the poor, blacks, and other minorities will only work for so much longer-- the demographics of this country are changing, and whites will be such a minority in a few years that racist measures like this will never be possible to pass state legislatures in the not-too-distant future. And using blatant racism to win elections for Republicans will be a thing of the past. The party of dirty tricks will no doubt come up with something else, I have no doubt.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    This is just more of the same bullshit. Voter suppression, The war on women's rights. Lowering taxes for the rich raising them on the poor &. Middle class & hey we can always cut out food stamps to compensate...

    Why is it it's always the Republicans who want to take things away from people?

    GorDoom

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Ask a Righty what he thinks about needing to have a background check for one person to purchase 10 submachine guns at a gun show. "HELL NO!" to that, he'd say. "Buying all the guns and ammo I want is my constitutional right!" God forbid anyone interpret the 2nd Amendment any way other than their way.

    But merely for someone living in the same house in the US for 50 years, also having served his country in the military, to want to exercise his right to vote-- "Fuck You, PROVE who you are, and NOT with a college i.d. or a Social Security card-- oh, you have a gun license, SURE!!" would be the comeback from the same Righty.

    Why is it Righties are so hung up on their constitutional rights, notably to carry guns in every pocket and to put cop-killer bullets under the Christmas tree, also the right to free speech to the extreme that now applies-- and secretly, no less-- to corporations and political action committees, so that right-wing billionaires can literally buy the United States government-- but God forbid a poor person want to exercise his constitutional right to vote? THEN, all of a sudden, they want to restrict an individual liberty granted by the constitution.

    Well, they want to restrict freedom on that and also on abortion and gays. As always. Seems the Right now is passing laws all over the country that make rape and incest victims carry the rapist's baby to term. Not even a rape/incest exception on abortion anymore, huh, Righties? Oh yeah, that's except if a Righty gets raped and impregnated, then that woman will be headed for an abortion provider quicker than it took her to say, "In God and Fox News I Trust."

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Dino, it IS a BIG deal having to obtain an i.d. when you are dirt poor, don't have a car, thus don't have a driver's license, or are too old to walk easily>>>


    common you have 365 and you CANT get an ID? but you can get out to vote?????????

    you are also talking about a miniscule amt of people that that truly applies to. Now for those citizens that it TRUELY aplies to- figure out a way to get them an ID at taxpayers expense. Now I now have an elderly disabled patient that has a couple thou in a bank. She cant get the money because she let her drivers licence expire. Should their be an easier way to get an ID in this case - sure. (although in her case she prob could get someone to bring her to DMV if she really wanted)
    My grandmother managed to keep her ID until her death at 99 by herself she was ok enough financially that she could call a cab (staten island, ny) and get where she needed occasionally. Poor and elderly are by themselves not the only criteria. (case by case)

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    "In God and Fox News I Trust.">>>>>


    better than MSNBC

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlupi View Post
    Dino, it IS a BIG deal having to obtain an i.d. when you are dirt poor, don't have a car, thus don't have a driver's license, or are too old to walk easily>>>


    common you have 365 and you CANT get an ID? but you can get out to vote?????????

    you are also talking about a miniscule amt of people that that truly applies to. Now for those citizens that it TRUELY aplies to- figure out a way to get them an ID at taxpayers expense. Now I now have an elderly disabled patient that has a couple thou in a bank. She cant get the money because she let her drivers licence expire. Should their be an easier way to get an ID in this case - sure. (although in her case she prob could get someone to bring her to DMV if she really wanted)
    My grandmother managed to keep her ID until her death at 99 by herself she was ok enough financially that she could call a cab (staten island, ny) and get where she needed occasionally. Poor and elderly are by themselves not the only criteria. (case by case)
    Instead of trying to rationalize it away, how about providing one iota of evidence that says voter fraud is a significant issue worthy of legislative action??? This is as bogus as burning up my tax dollars to drug test welfare recipients, even though the % of welfare recipients who are on drugs is miniscule and any cost savings by identifying a handful of drug users are COMPLETELY washed away by the cost of administering the tests. But please, let's not face reality and continue believing there are armies of poor black people out there who sit around on the government cheese waiting to commit voter fraud, guarded by mobs of New Black Panthers who only want to burglarize your house, shoot your dog, and steal your wife and daughter.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    You must not like facts,actual news, real reportage & something called truth...

    GorDoom

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by GorDoom View Post
    You must not like facts,actual news, real reportage & something called truth...

    GorDoom

    guess so

    nstead of trying to rationalize it away, how about providing one iota of evidence that says voter fraud is a significant issue worthy of legislative action??? >>>>>>

    Im just flabbergasted as are most Americans im sure that showing Id to vote is controversial. Im really just blown away, evidance (i cant believe anyone would wast their time)? there shouldn't be any necessary, this is common sense regardless of any evidence of fraud.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Im sure MSNBC is going to have countless commentary on how terrible it was that romney said that Jerusalem should be the recognized capital of Isreal. Prob never mentioning Obama said the same in 2008 (check youtube)and gore, clinton and kerry all made sim remarks.

    yet thats the beacon of truth (to the true believers at least)

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    "this is common sense regardless of any evidence of fraud." So criminal acts that suppress voting are just fine with you??? No wonder you like Fox. Fuck all those elderly, poor or students. What right do those poltroons have to vote, eh?

    GorDoom

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    I didn't do 3 tours of duty in Nam and get my ass shot up so an American political party could suppress AMERICAN'S right to vote! And Jilupi you might be flabbergasted about the voting fight but I'm fucking stunned that you don't get it. You actually believe a criminal fraud act regarding voting is okay as Doom pointed out?

    EMF

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Its criminal to show Id? its impossible for the elderly, poor and students to get ID in this country? Requiring you say who you say you are is suppressing votes? WOW

    You guys are live in a diff universe than I.

    Im not saying it fixes all prob but this is basic precautions wasnt there just people sent to jail on both sides in kentucky for buying votes. cant we just make it inconvenient to do so? Why even have requirements if nobody is able to ever check them?

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlupi View Post
    Its criminal to show Id? its impossible for the elderly, poor and students to get ID in this country? Requiring you say who you say you are is suppressing votes? WOW

    You guys are live in a diff universe than I.

    Im not saying it fixes all prob but this is basic precautions wasnt there just people sent to jail on both sides in kentucky for buying votes. cant we just make it inconvenient to do so? Why even have requirements if nobody is able to ever check them?
    No one said it's criminal to show i.d. It is criminal to write laws requiring i.d. when the purpose of the laws is to change election outcomes. This is in the Voting Rights Act. It is illegal, jlupi.

    Your anecdotes about your relatives are not proof of your argument, they are anecdotal exceptions to the rule. Just because your grandmother can do something is not a reason to force 5 million others to do it and call it convenient for them.

    You question how people can go vote and not go to DMV. You must be fucking kidding. Voting is often available right at apt. buildings and senior homes where people live, also at local schools. Now, how close are DMV offices to people's homes? Usually not close at all, often in other cities. In rural areas, sometimes 40-60 miles away--or more. You have to know this, are or you just playing "ignorant Republican," as Repubs always do about climate change ("I haven't seen enough proof . . .")?

    I regularly ask you Righties questions that you never answer. Here are some for you, jlupi:

    1) Do you endorse a party disenfranchising 5 million LEGALLY ENTITLED voters, so that that party will win elections they wouldn't otherwise win? In this case it's your party, the Republicans. If you KNEW that was their strategy, do you endorse it? On the evidence of a few dozen actual cases of fraud?

    2) Should we therefore take away ALL GUN RIGHTS, based on the few cases of mass murder each year committed with legally-purchased guns?

    3) Do you HONESTLY feel that if it's not "impossible" for the poor and elderly to get photo i.d., then they should be compelled to go get it by these Republican laws-- which are meant only to keep them from voting?

    4) Jlupi, my biggest beef with the Right isn't their sick, extreme, often religion-based positions on many issues, adopted over the last 30 years. It's the fact that they choose to lie about them every day. Romney flip-flopping 180 degrees on abortion, gay rights, his OWN health care plan, the personal mandate part of Obama's insurance, ending Medicare then not ending Medicare, imaginary gov't death panels, etc. etc. etc., is merely the perfect example of Republicans lying on every major issue. Rep. Paul Ryan stating how he cares so much for everyone's right to Medicare, something his bill is nonetheless trying to destroy; he'll instead give you vouchers to buy insurance when you're 65 and 85!!! Yeah, like that will actually get an old person insurance . . .

    . . . That's my biggest problem with the Right-- if you believe in something, great, just tell the same story two days in a row. TELL everyone how you want to eliminate Social Security, Medicare, unemployment compensation, etc., and raise taxes on the dirt poor, so that the rich can get still-lower tax rates. And how the Repubs are to eliminate ALL abortions for ANY reason, period. But Righty politicians never do say these things to many audiences--things that they are indeed trying to achieve in Congress as we speak.

    Anyway, with this in mind, my last question to you is: Do you HONESTLY believe the Repubs came up with this voter i.d. requirement legislation all over the country--NOW-- because they honestly feel this is a law necessitated by facts on the ground that show a widespread problem in need of a law . . . or do you honestly think they merely found a way to keep millions of honest citizens from voting for Democrats.

    If you answer the above questions, I'd sure appreciate honest, direct, specific answers, and your not bringing up Jerusalem and other irrelevancies as you've done. Just please address the questions. I'm trying to see if one Righty will tell the truth.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Michael:

    Your wasting your time. You're never going to get an answer. Because the right has no logical answer to your questions. Because there is no logic to what they're doing...

    Catch 22

    GorDoom

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    I can list incident after incident after incident where Fox has given bullshit, bogus reports without ever correcting! Can anyone actually name some for MSNBC? Actually Fox is loaded with people who never went to college, much less do they have a degree in journalism! Sean Hannity never, Glen Beck never did...that's the problem, pretend that shock radio djs are journalists and news is no longer news! As to the bogus voting laws...they are nothing more than violating the rights of the people as provided by the US Constitution!

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    MSNBC vs. Fox News

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins View Post
    I can list incident after incident after incident where Fox has given bullshit, bogus reports without ever correcting! Can anyone actually name some for MSNBC? Actually Fox is loaded with people who never went to college, much less do they have a degree in journalism! Sean Hannity never, Glen Beck never did...that's the problem, pretend that shock radio djs are journalists and news is no longer news! As to the bogus voting laws...they are nothing more than violating the rights of the people as provided by the US Constitution!
    This is right on, BDeskins. I was going to respond similarly to another's earlier put-down of MSNBC but didn't before now.

    I can't think of one factual mistake made on MSNBC in my years of watching them. I'm sure there must have been one or two, or more, but I haven't heard one--except from Republican Joe Scarbrough. Chris Matthews has the worst pronunciation in the world, due to that Philly accent, but he knows more than the top five people at Fox, EASILY. He worked for years in Congress for Tip O'Neil, before that for President Carter. Lawrence O'Donnell of MSNBC has similar credentials. Whereas the pukes at Fox News-- where are the journalists? Hannity was a bartender. Gretchen Carlson was a beauty contestent. Palin is an empty-head and had 2 years as governor of the smallest state in the union (populationwise). She says she has "international experience" because Russia is next to Alaska, and the Righties want to run her for president. (Of course, current Repub presidential candidate Mitt Romney thinks it's still the "Soviet Union" and that they're our worst enemy at present; and the idiots on the Right still think he's more qualified to lead the free world than Obama. Me, I think he needs to take a 7th-grade social studies class with Palin.)

    Only Rove at Fox has any significant political knowledge and experience, and it was DIRTY as all hell (ask John McCain how he liked Rove's phone survey callers, on behalf of Bush, in 2000 in North and South Carolina asking people, "If you knew that John McCain had fathered a black baby out of wedlock, would you be more or less likely to vote for him?") A scumbag, "push-poll" tactic Rove learned from Repub Lee Atwater, whereby under the guise of conducting a poll, you actually impart false, negative information.

    The folks at MSNBC sound like and ARE educated journalists who take pride in telling the truth, providing news stories based on actual journalism-- with second and third sources on those stories. Ed Schultz is the least educated and most excitable, but he still tells the truth. Moreover, they tell you up front at MSNBC that their political shows--NOT their news-- the last 5-7 years have a progressive slant-- that is, in their selection of stories, in their choice of guests-- but NOT in any way tinkering with the facts. When they say there's a war on women, they back it up with Congressional and State bill after bill, going after women's reproductive rights, introduced by Republicans 100% of the time.

    However, Fox News claims to be "fair and balanced"-- claiming NOT to have a Righty bias Yet they employ Karl Rove, for God's sake, and Sarah Palin. The President of the United States is attacked every single night on that network, when Clinton, and now Obama, are President-- (where's that Righty "respect for the office of the President"?). They claim there's a war on Christmas and a war on Christians in the US. Since Christians dominate the US population, I wonder how this is even possible. But their proof is when Wal Mart cashiers are instructed to say "Happy Holidays" to their customers rather than "Merry Christmas." Sounds like Wal Mart is trying to be inclusive and decent to all shoppers. But Fox News and the Right call that persecution.

    Fox News has to walk back outrageous bullshit remarks almost every day, and does so; and if they were honest, it would be every day without exception.

    If someone on MSNBC gives a small or tiny contribution to a political candidate, he gets fired. But Fox News, as an organization, they contribute millions to the Republican Party. Sound "fair and balanced" to you, jlupi? You're right, we live in far different worlds.

    I really see NO comparison between Fox News and MSNBC.

    I'll ask another question of jlupi: When you are watching Fox News-- and Hannity, O'Reilly, Beck (previously), Carlson, Doosey, Palin, oh and Donald Trump (a frequent guest, because he adds so much truth to the conversation) are telling you their version of political news-- do you really believe it? Would you bet on its accuracy? Or does it just feel good to hear them tell you what you like to hear?

    Did President Obama's parents REALLY place newspaper birth announcements in Hawaiian newspapers in 1961, lying about their son's birth location that year, because they knew he'd grow up to run for president 46+ years later? (That is the position of 40-50% of the Right in this country.) --- Jlupi, do you believe Donald Trump and Sheriff Joe on this birtherism, or do you believe the President, the state of Hawaii, the hospital in Hawaii, and the newspapers of 1961 in Hawaii?
    Last edited by Michael Frank; 08-02-2012 at 12:31 PM.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlupi View Post
    Im just flabbergasted as are most Americans im sure that showing Id to vote is controversial. Im really just blown away, evidance (i cant believe anyone would wast their time)? there shouldn't be any necessary, this is common sense regardless of any evidence of fraud.
    Taking you at your word, I can agree with you in theory. Sure, let's make sure everyone casting votes has the right to do so, seems perfectly right. I don't argue the common sense of it, in theory.

    BUT, jlupi, unless you would choose to be instrumentally ignorant, you have to know that laws IN REALITY have unintended consequences (though in this case the Republicans intend them). So if this "common sense" law that YOU say requires no evidence of fraud to go ahead and pass anyway, actually does disenfranchise 5 million citizens who were born with the right to vote . . . and IF you knew this to be a fact . . . can you see the problem, the other side of the coin here?

    And if so, then IF you knew that 5 million would be disenfranchised so as to make the system "perfect," the way you want it to be (as do I), in the real world is it your feeling that the 5 million should lose their constitutional voting right so as to prevent the 40 or 80 from breaking the law?

    AND-- I'll speak hypothetically now-- IF you knew these laws were being passed to make one party win elections it wouldn't win otherwise, thus breaking the law (the Voting Rights Act), would you endorse this? In a situation that's imperfect on either side, do you recommend screwing the 5 million legitimates to save us from the few dozen lawbreakers?

    Put another way, do you truly recommend subverting election results, and ending up with the not-popularly-elected candidates winning office, using the premise that the voter i.d./voter suppression laws are "really" trying to prevent this very thing?

    Please--those two last ones are purely hypothetical and I'm not (this time) accusing the Republicans of the wrongdoing that millions of us feel they're guilty of on this issue, so just treat it as a hypothetical-- but would you answer these questions seriously. (Thank you.)
    Last edited by Michael Frank; 08-02-2012 at 09:25 PM.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    I'll tell you something else that I have never heard anyone make a comment about, which is sad! O-Kay, they say conservative leaning books sell and more liberal books do not sell! Go to you local Wal-Mart and keep note over the next year! I can guarantee you that your Wal-Mart will have about 15 conservative-view books for every liberal book...in fact I bet that your Wal-Mart will not have but a handful of liberal-leaning books the whole year while they sellm somewhere around 100+ different books by such noted "thinkers" as Glen Beck and Sarah Palin! Sure it sounds like conspiracy nonsense, but when facts back up the nonsense its not a conspiracy! The small town where I live, I have kept a tab over the past five, ore six years on hte books Wal-Mart sells! Even though I live in a small town it would seem obvious that a book written by the current president would be a book that was typically on the shelves, but rarely have I ever seen a book on these shelves that wasn't conservative! Sure I am a democrat and I will certainly be bias in whatever I say, but I do try to be honest, but sadly the same cannot be said of places like Wal-Mart and Fox...they're all connected...it's not a coincedence...I wish it was...the bullshit voting ID bills fall right in with the same unAmerican, unconstitutional kind of behavior that Fox and Wal-Mart participate in daily!

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    1) Do you endorse a party disenfranchising 5 million LEGALLY ENTITLED voters, so that that party will win elections they wouldn't otherwise win? In this case it's your party, the Republicans. If you KNEW that was their strategy, do you endorse it? On the evidence of a few dozen actual cases of fraud?

    I dont believe that is true and to me its ridiculousness to have people vote without ID. If some citizens people need ID - find a way for them to get it.

    2) Should we therefore take away ALL GUN RIGHTS, based on the few cases of mass murder each year committed with legally-purchased guns?

    I dont see how this is apples to apples. You should show ID for gun purchases. States that have the most liberal gun laws seem to have less gun violance than those that are the most strict. (by the way Im not against all gun laws personally)

    3) Do you HONESTLY feel that if it's not "impossible" for the poor and elderly to get photo i.d., then they should be compelled to go get it by these Republican laws-- which are meant only to keep them from voting?


    I think the first part was answered prev. second part is a left wing conspiracy theory and not based in reality.

    I can dig up lots of similar right wing nonsense conspiracy theory's, you choose to believe the fefty theorys that dosent make it based in fact


    4) Jlupi, my biggest beef with the Right isn't their sick, extreme, often religion-based positions on many issues, adopted over the last 30 years. It's the fact that they choose to lie about them every day. Romney flip-flopping 180 degrees on abortion, gay rights, his OWN health care plan, the personal mandate part of Obama's insurance, ending Medicare then not ending Medicare, imaginary gov't death panels, etc. etc. etc., is merely the perfect example of Republicans lying on every major issue. Rep. Paul Ryan stating how he cares so much for everyone's right to Medicare, something his bill is nonetheless trying to destroy; he'll instead give you vouchers to buy insurance when you're 65 and 85!!! Yeah, like that will actually get an old person insurance . . .

    Romneys seems physically conservative which I like but I agree w some of the flip flopping. Lets be honest obama has flip flopped quite a bit (as most politicians due) or is it because hes a dem his position changes are ok because he evolved?


    <<<I can guarantee you that your Wal-Mart will have about 15 conservative-view books for every liberal book>>>>

    becausev noone buys the liberal books. LOL but maybe we should have mandated fareness because too many people are too dumb to have your views???????

    which is sad! O-Kay, they say conservative leaning books sell and more liberal books do not sell!>>>>>

    If they dont sell why stock the shelves w them? Im no huge walmart fan but I think they are in the market of selling items that MOVE. Conservative radio and TV do much better ratings than Liberal. Why? im really not sure. The market seems like its their for both but conservatives support their platform more. The country is certainly hungry for hard right/left viewpoints. plain news dosent sell as well.
    Last edited by jlupi; 08-03-2012 at 11:58 AM.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    I think your friend John Stewart recently stated "we should have a channel devoted to each candidate's re-election. Oh thats right we already do" "msnbc/Fox news"


    at least he can see its on both sides

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Jlupi:

    You NEVER answer one single question to justify your positions. All you do is toss out irrelevant asides. Either you actually really have a point to make or not. Apparently you can only resort to tossing out cliche's because you know there is absolutely no justification for your positions. If I'm wrong, please point out why...

    GorDoom

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    Gor

    we are going to have to agree to disagree. I just dont see your positions and see them as nothing but liberal opinion you think the same of me. I have to write a well researched novel to voice an opinion????
    Last edited by jlupi; 08-03-2012 at 12:04 PM.

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    How about laying out a coherent argument??? You have completely failed to do that instead as I pointed out resorting to cliches. You've had a bunch of well reasoned points made to you & you have not had one coherent, realistic, response.

    You keep saying we're wrong. Prove your point!

    GorDoom

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    Re: Is Voter Fraud A Fraud?

    It is criminal to write laws requiring i.d. when the purpose of the laws is to change election outcomes. This is in the Voting Rights Act.>>>>>

    It was criminal to require prerequisites do to qualifications being placed at the time in some areas to prevent blacks from voting. I think not requiring ID makes it impossible to verify that the individual voting is who they say a basic part of fair elections. If everyone is required to have an ID as they are required to register to vote I dont see how this is racist. NOw are their eliments in each party that want advantages sure. You can read lots of political blogs on the right and left that can detail what the other is/or is supposedly doing to swing the vote their way.

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