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Thread: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

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    Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Well as a UK based fight fan I will be the first to admit that the Heavyweight division hasn't been our best. But we have produced a few very good ones over the years, also as I always say about doing a top ten I reserve the right to change my mind, as I often do anyway. Also I have only listed fighters I have seen footage of or seen box live. I don't count Ruby Rob as a British Heavyweight.

    1. Lennox Lewis
    2. Joe Bugner
    3. Tommy Farr
    4. Frank Bruno
    5. Henry Cooper
    6. Bruce Woodcock
    7. Don Cockell
    8. Brian London
    9. Joe Erskine
    10. Gary Mason.

    Any opinions?

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    I agree with you KO, although I would change the line up a bit placing Farr, Woodcock & Cockell ahead of Bugner, Bruno and Cooper. I might be inclined to place Cooper before Bruno and as for Gary Mason I seem to remember I wasn't overly impressed by him (can't remember for certain).

    Lewis I question his National identity, the same as Fitzsimmons. I also like to leave spaces for the "great unknowns", because there are always a good few no matter where you come from!

    Jim.

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim glen
    I agree with you KO, although I would change the line up a bit placing Farr, Woodcock & Cockell ahead of Bugner, Bruno and Cooper. I might be inclined to place Cooper before Bruno and as for Gary Mason I seem to remember I wasn't overly impressed by him (can't remember for certain).

    Lewis I question his National identity, the same as Fitzsimmons. I also like to leave spaces for the "great unknowns", because there are always a good few no matter where you come from!

    Jim.

    What? No Bombadier Billy Wells?

    In his 1969 book, "Champions & Challengers," British boxing guru R.A. Haldane selected Tommy Farr & Henry Cooper as, jointly, the two best British heavyweights of all-time, which selection I agree with (up to 1969, that is).

    I see it like this:

    1-Lennox Lewis
    2-Tommy Farr
    3-Henry Cooper
    4-Frank Bruno
    5-Joe Bugner
    6-Bruce Woodcock

    After that, the talent level drops off quite a bit, IMO.

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    You know it's a domestically weak division when Brian London makes an appearance in the top 10.

    I would replace him with Conteh, who didn't do anything other than pummel some journeymen as a young novice, but was probably still good enough at the weight to beat Cockell, Erskine and London.Other than that i agree with Joe's list.

    Does anyone have an Brit all-time middleweight top ten?.That's a deeper division domestically, that would yield a strong top-ten and could make for some interesting debate.

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    I consider Lennox Lewis a Canadian. He learned to box in Canada, fought for them in two separate Olympics. He is a product of Canadian boxing and they deserve credit for him. (BTW, I'm not biased - I'm not a Canadian).

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Here is Historian, Gilbert Odd's list: Britain's Top 10 'middleweights', very questionable!

    Britain was SO desperate for World titles in the heavier weight divisions that every Internationally known fighter is put forward as there were 'so few' among the bigger men (understandable, but NOT accurate). The outcome many other worthy fighters are 'overlooked' in the name of National identity!

    1 Randolph Turpin; 2. Jock McAvoy; 3. Len Harvey; 4. Ted 'Kid' Lewis; 5. Terry Downes; 6. Tommy Milligan; 7. Ernie Roderick; 8. Roland Todd; 9. Pat McAteer;10. Johnny Sullivan..

    Considerations... Len Harvey was a L-HW and Britains best at that weight, Ted 'Kid' Lewis was a Welterweight and Britains best at the weight, likewise Ernie Roderick was a Welterweight and probably in the top 3 at that weight. Randolph Turpin was NOT better than Jock McAvoy - "hands down" and you have to include such fighters like Jack Casey, Len Johnson (some would say Tops), Bert Gilroy, Ginger Sadd, Dick Turpin and tough guy Harry Scot... then there's the modern bunch Benn, Watson and company.

    While researching Bert Gilroy's career, with approx 700 reports the amount of contradiction, National (English) bias and outright fallacy is unbelievable (they England/Britain were so desperate for these titles in the top divisions), the measures taken in protection of the said few is amazing!

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    For me the # 1 Brit welter/middle is unquestionably Ted "Kid" Lewis. The guy met & KO'd much bigger competition. & you also have to include Nigel Benn, Chris Eubanks, Michael Watson & Steve Collins.

    GorDoom

    TED "KID" LEWIS' CAREER RECORD

    Ted "Kid" Lewis
    (Gershon Mendeloff)

    Lewis was one of the greatest English fighters who ever fought; He was a nonstop, all-action, relentless attacker who fought often and had a long career

    Lewis had his first fight at age fourteen and was a Champion by age eighteen; He and Jack Britton comprised one of the greatest ring rivalries in boxing history; They fought twenty times for a total of 224 rounds and traded titles several times. Both Nat Fleischer and Charley Rose ranked Lewis as the #4 All-Time Welterweight; The "Kid" was elected to the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1992.
    BORN: Oct 24 1894; London, England
    DIED : Oct 20 1970; London, England


    1909
    Sep 13 Johnny Sharp London, Eng L 6
    Sep 19 Joe Lipman London, Eng W 6
    Oct 9 Alf Cohen London, Eng W 6
    Oct 30 George Thomas London, Eng KO 1
    Nov 27 "Private" Joe Marks London, Eng W 6
    Dec 6 Dick Hart London, Eng D 6
    Dec 18 Jack "Kid" Levene London, Eng KO 3
    1910
    Jan 8 Bill Marsh London, Eng W 6
    Jan 16 Alf Jacobs London, Eng W 6
    Jan 31 Jim Brown London, Eng L 6
    Feb 13 George Powell London, Eng TK 1
    Feb 27 Piper Holmes London, Eng W 6
    Feb 28 George Marks London, Eng W 6
    May 15 Jack "Kid" Levene London, Eng W 6
    May 22 Young Morris London, Eng W 6
    May 29 Young Sullivan London, Eng KO 3
    Jun 5 Joe Madden London, Eng KO 2
    Jul 17 Jack Greenstock London, Eng D 6
    Jul 24 Alf Jacobs London, Eng W 6
    Jul 31 Joe Madden London, Eng D 6
    Aug 6 Ted O'Neil London, Eng KO 5
    Aug 13 Young Smith London, Eng TK 3
    Aug 16 Sid Venner London, Eng W 6
    Oct 8 Curley Bume London, Eng W 6
    Nov 12 Boyo Lambert London, Eng W 6
    1911
    Jan 1 Dick Murray London, Eng W 6
    Jan 8 Bill Marsh London, Eng W 6
    Jan 15 Jack Marks London, Eng W 6
    Jan 22 Alf Jacobs London, Eng W 6
    Jan 25 Joe Madden London, Eng W 6
    Jan 29 Joe Jacobs London, Eng W 6
    Feb 2 Young Kline London, Eng KO 3
    Feb 5 Alf Small London, Eng TK 2
    Feb 9 Billy Smith London, Eng KO 4
    Feb 12 Young Sullivan London, Eng L 6
    Feb 19 Joe Madden London, Eng D 6
    Feb 26 Jack "Kid" Levene London, Eng W 6
    Mar 5 Jim Butler London, Eng KO 1
    Mar 12 Charlie Smith London, Eng KO 4
    Mar 19 Jack Ginnion London, Eng TK 3
    Mar 26 Joe Ross London, Eng W 6
    Apr 2 Young Hyams London, Eng W 10
    Apr 9 Nat Brooks London, Eng W 10
    -The weight limit was 116 lbs
    Apr 16 Jack Marks London, Eng W 10
    Apr 23 Jack Fisher London, Eng L 6
    Apr 30 Nat Brooks London, Eng L 15
    May 7 Joe Madden London, Eng W 12
    May 14 Alf Small London, Eng W 10
    May 18 Tom Chinnery London, Eng W 6
    May 21 Young Greenstock London, Eng D 6
    May 28 Jack English London, Eng KO 3
    Jun 1 Sid Venner London, Eng W 6
    Jun 4 Young Kline London, Eng KO 3
    Jun 11 Alf Small London, Eng KO 12
    Jun 18 Dick Murray London, Eng W 6
    Jul 25 George Marks London, Eng W 6
    Jul 29 "Private" Joe Marks London, Eng TK 7
    Aug 9 Curley Hume London, Eng W 6
    Aug 16 Tom Perkins London, Eng W 10
    Aug 23 Jack Harbour London, Eng WF 3
    Sep 2 Fred Halsband London, Eng D 6
    Sep 4 Walter Marshall London, Eng TK 3
    Sep 17 Billy Smith London, Eng TK 4
    Sep 20 Ted O'Neill London, Eng TK 5
    Sep 30 Tom Perkins London, Eng W 6
    Oct 5 Lew Cohen London, Eng KO 3
    Oct 8 Harry Ray London, Eng W 6
    Oct 10 Tom Perkins London, Eng W 6
    Oct 18 Tom Perkins London, Eng D 6
    Oct 21 Alf Small London, Eng W 6
    Oct 23 Jack Bunner London, Eng W 10
    Oct 29 Tom Perkins London, Eng W 10
    Nov 2 Dick Murray London, Eng W 10
    Nov 9 Jim Hales London, Eng W 6
    Nov 12 Alf Small London, Eng KO 2
    Nov 19 Kid Olds London, Eng W 6
    Nov 26 Billy Griggs London, Eng KO 1
    Dec 3 Frank Warner London, Eng W 6
    Dec 7 Jimmy Butler London, Eng TK 2
    Dec 10 Billy Taylor London, Eng W 8
    Dec 17 Jim Shires London, Eng W 10
    Dec 24 Frank Fay London, Eng W 6
    Dec 31 Eddie Foy London, Eng W 6
    1912
    Jan 6 Jewey Murray London, Eng KO 1
    Jan 13 Billy Taylor London, Eng W 8
    Jan 16 Harry Wilson London, Eng W 10
    Jan 20 Darkey Harris London, Eng KO 3
    Feb 10 Tom Mack London, Eng W 6
    Feb 17 Duke Lynch London, Eng W 10
    Feb 24 Alf Mitchell London, Eng W 10
    Mar 2 George Buswell London, Eng W 10
    Mar 16 Alan Porter London, Eng W 10
    Mar 18 Jim Shires London, Eng KO 2
    Apr 1 Duke Lynch London, Eng LK 1
    Apr 3 Leon Truffler Paris, Fr W 10
    Apr 6 Gus Venn London, Eng KO 7
    Apr 27 Gus Venn London, Eng W 10
    May 5 Jim Hales London, Eng W 6
    May 25 Leon Truffler London, Eng W 10
    Jun 8 Jack Chinnery London, Eng W 6
    Jun 22 George Ruddick London, Eng W 10
    Jun 29 Darkey Haley London, Eng W 6
    Jul 6 "Seaman" Arthur Hayes London, Eng W 10
    Jul 13 Harry Wilson London, Eng W 10
    Jul 27 Jack O'Neill London, Eng KO 3
    Aug 10 Young Brooks London, Eng L 10
    Aug 31 Fred Halsband London, Eng L 10
    Sep 7 Tom Clifford London, Eng W 6
    Sep 14 Sam Russell London, Eng W 10
    Sep 21 Fred Blake London, Eng W 6
    Sep 28 Tom Allen London, Eng W 10
    Oct 5 Con Houghton London, Eng LF 6
    Oct 12 Jim Lloyd London, Eng W 10
    Oct 19 Jack Chinnery London, Eng KO 3
    Oct 24 Jim Campbell London, Eng W 6
    Nov 9 Fred Halsband London, Eng W 10
    Nov 16 Alf Small London, Eng KO 5
    Nov 30 George Ruddick London, Eng W 12
    Dec 2 Darkey Harris London, Eng KO 3
    Dec 9 Jack Harrison London, Eng KO 3
    Dec 16 Jim Shires London, Eng W 10
    Dec 22 Harry Berry London, Eng W 15

    1913
    Jan 2 Jim Lloyd Liverpool, Eng W 10
    Jan 4 George Buswell London, Eng KO 14
    Jan 16 Nat Williams Liverpool, Eng D 15
    Jan 27 Johnny Condon London, Eng W 20
    Mar 3 Johnny Condon London, Eng W 20
    Apr 7 Young Brooks London, Eng W 15
    Jun 2 Joe Starmer London, Eng W 15
    -Elimination bout for the Featherweight Championship
    of Britain
    Jul 19 Harry Stirling London, Eng TK 7
    Jul 26 Duke Lynch London, Eng W 20
    Aug 23 Harry Stirling London, Eng W 20
    Sep 15 Ferdinand Quendraux London, Eng KO 10
    Oct 6 Alec Lambert London, Eng KO 17
    -Featherweight Championship of Britain

    1914
    Jan 5 George Buswell London, Eng KO 2
    Feb 2 Paul Til London, Eng WF 12
    -Featherweight Championship of Europe
    Mar 14 Harry Berry London, Eng KO 3
    Mar 18 Ted Saunders Coventry, Eng KO 6
    May 30 Herb McCoy Sydney, NSW, Aus W 20
    Jun 12 Hughie Mehegan Sydney, NSW, Aus W 20
    Jun 26 Joe "Young" Shugrue Sydney, NSW, Aus W 20
    Jul 11 Herb McCoy Melbourne, Vic, Aus L 20
    Aug 1 Bobby Moore Melbourne, Vic, Aus W 20
    Nov 9 Phil Bloom New York, NY ND 10
    Dec 25 "Young" Jack O'Brien Philadelphia, Pa ND 6
    1915
    Jan 1 Willie Moore Philadelphia, Pa ND 6
    Mar 10 Frankie Mack Havana, Cu W 20
    Mar 26 Jack Britton New York, NY ND 10
    Apr 6 Harry Lenny New York, NY ND 10
    Apr 16 Johnny Lore Montreal, Que, Can ND 10
    Apr 30 Johnny Lustig Montreal, Que, Can ND 10
    Jun 9 Perry "Kid" Graves New York, NY ND 10
    Jun 23 Johnny Marto New York, NY ND 10
    Jun 25 Mike Mazie Far Rockaway, NY ND 10
    Jul 21 Charley White New York, NY ND 10
    Aug 3 Mike Glover Boston, Ma W 12
    Aug 11 Kid Curley Buffalo, NY ND 10
    Aug 17 Fighting Zunner Buffalo, NY ND 10
    Aug 31 Jack Britton Boston, Ma W 12
    -Welterweight Championship of the World
    Sep 28 Jack Britton Boston, Ma W 12
    Oct 18 Willie Moore Philadelphia, Pa ND 6
    Oct 26 Joe Mandot Boston, Ma W 12
    Nov 2 Milburn "Young" Saylor Boston, Ma W 12
    Nov 23 Jimmy Duffy Boston, Ma KO 1
    Nov 30 Mike Glover Boston, Ma L 12
    Dec 28 Willie Ritchie New York, NY ND 10
    1916
    Jan 1 K.O. Brennan Buffalo, NY ND 10
    Jan 13 Mike Glover Boston, Ma W 12
    -Jun 13 1916 ?????
    Jan 17 Perry "Kid" Graves Milwaukee, Wi ND 10
    Jan 20 Jack Britton Buffalo, NY ND 10
    Feb 5 Marty Farrell Philadelphia, Pa ND 6
    Feb 9 "Soldier" Jacob Bartfield Buffalo, NY ND 10
    Feb 15 Jack Britton New York, NY ND 10
    Feb 21 Jimmy Duffy Buffalo, NY ND 10
    Feb 24 Harry Trendall St. Louis, Mo KO 7
    Mar 1 Harry Stone New Orleans, La W 20
    Apr 19 Jake Abel Chattanooga, Tn W 8
    Apr 24 Jack Britton New Orleans, La L 20
    -Welterweight Championship of the World
    May 18 Mike Gibbons New York, NY ND 10
    May 24 Eddie Moha Dayton, Oh KO 12
    Oct 17 Jack Britton Boston, Ma L 12
    Oct 24 Young Denny St. Louis, Mo ND 12
    Nov 14 Jack Britton Boston, Ma D 12
    Nov 23 Johnny Griffiths Cleveland, Oh ND 10
    Dec 21 Johnny Griffiths Cleveland, Oh ND 10
    1917
    Jan 29 Willie Beecher New York, NY ND 10
    Jan 31 Sam Robideaux Providence, RI W 15
    Feb 6 Perry "Kid" Graves New York, NY KO 9
    Feb 26 Johnny Griffiths Akron, Oh ND 12
    Mar 19 Willie Moore New York, NY KO 1
    Mar 26 Jack Britton Cincinnati, Oh ND 12
    Apr 4 Jimmy Coffey New York, NY KO 1
    Apr 12 Billy Weeks Dayton, Oh KO 12
    Apr 28 Johnny Griffiths Columbus, Oh ND 12
    May 4 Jimmy "Butch" O'Hagen New York, NY KO 2
    May 19 Jack Britton Toronto, Ont, Can ND 10
    May 22 Joe Eagan Boston, Ma W 12
    May 24 Mike O'Dowd New York, NY ND 10
    Jun 6 Jack Britton St. Louis, Mo ND 10
    Jun 14 Jack Britton New York, NY ND 10
    Jun 25 Jack Britton Dayton, Oh W 20
    -Welterweight Championship of the World
    Jul 4 Johnny Griffiths Akron, Oh ND 15
    Aug 7 Jimmy "Butch" O'Hagen Saratoga, NY ND 10
    Aug 17 Mike O'Dowd New York, NY ND 10
    Aug 28 Mike O'Dowd Boston, Ma L 12
    Aug 31 Albert Badoud New York, NY KO 1
    Sep 3 "Soldier" Jacob Bartfield Buffalo, NY ND 10
    Sep 11 "Soldier" Jacob Bartfield Rochester, NY ND 10
    Sep 14 Jimmy "Butch" O'Hagen Brooklyn, NY ND 10
    Sep 15 "Italian" Joe Gans Brooklyn, NY ND 10
    Sep 24 Frank Carbone New York, NY ND 10
    Oct 24 Battling Ortega Oakland, Ca D 4
    Nov 13 Johnny McCarthy San Francisco, Ca W 4
    Dec 17 William Bryan Downey Columbus, Oh ND 12
    1918
    Jan 14 "Soldier" Jacob Bartfield Columbus, Oh ND 12
    Jan 23 "Soldier" Jacob Bartfield Toronto, Ont, Can ND 10
    Feb 4 Johnny Tillman Philadelphia, Pa KO 6
    Feb 18 Jimmy Duffy Toledo, Oh KO 1
    Feb 25 "Soldier" Jacob Bartfield Philadelphia, Pa ND 6
    Feb 26 Willie Langford Buffalo, NY ND 10
    Mar 6 Jack Britton Atlanta, Ga ND 10
    Apr 16 Joe Eagan Milwaukee, Wi ND 10
    May 2 Jack Britton Scranton, Pa D 10
    May 17 Johnny Tillman Denver, Co W 20
    May 24 Jack Britton New York, NY ND 6
    Jun 20 Jack Britton New York, NY ND 6
    Jun 25 Tommy Robson Boston, Ma W 12
    Jul 4 Johnny Griffiths Akron, Oh ND 20
    Aug 3 Tommy Robson Boston, Ma W 12
    Aug 17 Walter Mohr Jersey City, NJ ND 8
    Sep 23 Benny Leonard Newark, NJ ND 8

    1919
    Jan 1 William Bryan Downey Columbus, Oh ND 12
    Jan 13 Georges Rivet Montreal, Que, Can ND 10
    Mar 10 Johnny Griffiths Memphis, Tn ND 8
    Mar 17 Jack Britton Canton, Oh LK 9
    -Welterweight Championship of the World
    Jul 14 Steve Latzo Philadelphia, Pa ND 6
    Jul 28 Jack Britton Jersey City, NJ ND 8
    Aug 4 Steve Latzo Philadelphia, Pa ND 6
    Sep 1 Mike O'Dowd Syracuse, NY ND 10
    Oct 11 K.O. Loughlin Portland, Me KO 1
    Oct 16 Jimmy McCabe Atlanta, Ga KO 1
    Oct 29 Jake Abel Atlanta, Ga W 10
    Dec 26 Matt Wells London, Eng TK 12

    1920
    Jan 13 Frank Moody Manchester, Eng KO 1
    Feb 14 Maurice Prunier Paris, Fr KO 6
    Feb 28 Jerry Shea Mountain Ash, Eng KO 1
    Mar 4 Gus Platts Sheffield, Eng TK 18
    Mar 11 Johnny Bee London, Eng KO 4
    -Welterweight Championship of Britain
    Apr 5 Kid Doyle Liverpool, Eng KO 11
    Apr 30 Kid Doyle London, Eng KO 5
    Jun 9 Johnny Basham London, Eng TK 9
    -Welterweight Championship of Europe;
    Welterweight Championship of Britain
    Sep 23 Mike O'Dowd Jersey City, NJ ND 12
    Oct 12 Marcel Thomas Jersey City, NJ ND 8
    Nov 19 Johnny Basham London, Eng KO 19
    -Welterweight Championship of Europe;
    Welterweight Championship of Britain
    Dec -Lewis relinquished the Welterweight Championship
    of Europe

    1921
    Feb 7 Jack Britton New York, NY L 15
    Mar 16 Jack Perry Detroit, Mi ND 10
    Apr 8 Nate Siegel Boston, Ma L 10
    Apr 13 Augie Ratner New York, NY L 15
    Jun 27 Jack Bloomfield London, Eng W 20
    -Middleweight Championship of Britain
    Sep 21 Ernie Barrieau Toronto, Ont, Can KO 10
    Oct 14 Johnny Basham London, Eng TK 12
    -Middleweight Championship of Europe;
    Welterweight Championship of Britain
    Nov 17 Noel "Boy" McCormick London, Eng KO 14
    1922
    Feb 16 Tom Gummer Brighton, Eng KO 1
    May 11 Georges Carpentier London, Eng LK 1
    -Light Heavyweight Championship of the World
    Jun 19 Frankie Burns London, Eng KO 11
    -Middleweight Championship of the British Empire
    Sep 4 Marcel Thomas London, Eng TK 4
    Nov 20 Roland Todd London, Eng W 20
    -Middleweight Championship of Europe;
    Middleweight Championship of the British Empire;
    Middleweight Championship of Britain
    1923
    Feb 15 Roland Todd London, Eng L 20
    -Middleweight Championship of Europe;
    Middleweight Championship of the British Empire;
    Middleweight Championship of Britain
    Jul 30 Augie Ratner London, Eng L 20
    Oct 4 Frankie Burns London, Eng W 20
    Nov 8 Fred Archer London, Eng W 20
    Dec 26 Fred Davies London, Eng W 20
    1924
    Jan 22 Sid Pape Bradford, Eng TK 2
    Feb 12 Bruno Frattini Milan, It KO 17
    Mar 18 Francis Charles Paris, Fr W 15
    Apr 5 Chic Nelson Hamburg, Ger D 15
    Apr 12 Eric Milenz Berlin, Ger KO 8
    Jun 1 Piet Hobin Paris, Fr D 20
    Jul 3 Johnny Brown London, Eng W 20
    -Welterweight Championship of Europe;
    Welterweight Championship of the British Empire;
    Welterweight Championship of Britain
    Nov 26 Tommy Milligan Edinburgh, Scot L 20
    -Welterweight Championship of Europe;
    Welterweight Championship of the British Empire;
    Welterweight Championship of Britain
    1925
    Jan 22 Francis Charles London, Eng W 20
    Mar 19 Tommy Milligan London, Eng LF 5
    Jul 10 Bob Sage Hollywood, Ca W 10
    Oct 8 Marcel Thuru London, Eng LF 1
    Nov 8 Simon Rossman London, Eng LF 8
    Nov 27 Len Johnson Manchester, Eng LT 9
    1926
    Mar 7 Billy Pritchard London, Eng KO 10
    Mar 21 Billy Mattick London, Eng WF 5
    1927
    Aug 4 Joe Green London, Eng TK 4
    Aug 14 Jim Carr London, Eng KO 3
    Aug 28 Nol Steenhorst London, Eng TK 9
    Sep 11 Ted Coveney London, Eng TK 6
    Oct 6 Robert "Young" Ansemes London, Eng KO 1
    Oct 16 Joe Rolfe London, Eng KO 11
    Dec 3 Alec Storbeck Johannesburg, Trans, SA KO 1
    1928
    Jan 7 Johnny Squires Johannesburg, Trans, SA D 15
    Jul 23 Maxie Rosenbloom Long Island City, NY LF 6
    Dec 17 Charley Belanger Toronto, Ont, Can LF 1
    1929
    Dec 13 Johnny Basham London, Eng KO 3

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim glen
    I agree with you KO, although I would change the line up a bit placing Farr, Woodcock & Cockell ahead of Bugner, Bruno and Cooper. I might be inclined to place Cooper before Bruno and as for Gary Mason I seem to remember I wasn't overly impressed by him (can't remember for certain).

    Lewis I question his National identity, the same as Fitzsimmons. I also like to leave spaces for the "great unknowns", because there are always a good few no matter where you come from!

    Jim.
    Hello Jim

    I see what you are saying, but the reason I included Mason in my list was I was restricting myself in this initial list to fighters I had seen in action and to be fair to Mason he was a tough, strong, good puncher and had bags of heart, although he was very slow and ponderous at times.

    Without getting into the Lennox Lewis British/Canadian debate I put him in my list as he fought for the British Title unlike Ruby Rob.

    I also agree with you thats it's important, even vital to keep a few open spaces (and open mind) for the great unknown/forgotton fighters eg J. Prescott, B. Walker, J. Williams, J. Beckett & J. Petersen etc etc.

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    From the latest issue of Boxing 2006

    By Gavin Evans
    20 Greatest British fighters of All Time.

    1-Lennox Lewis
    2-Jimmy WIlde
    3-Jim Driscoll
    4-Freddy Welsh
    5-Ted Kid Lewis
    6-Ken Buchanan
    7-Randy Turpin
    8-Benny Lynch
    9-Owen Moran
    10-John Conteh
    11-Naseem Hamed
    12-John H. Stracey
    13-Peter Kane
    14-Herol Graham
    15-Chris Eubank
    16-Nigel Benn
    17-Howard Winstone
    18-Alan Minter
    19-Jim Watt
    20-Freddie Mills

    Honorable Mention;

    Ricky Hatton, Joe Calzaghe
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 05-09-2006 at 05:24 PM.

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    Re: From the latest issue of Boxing 2006

    Lewis over Wilde? Really? PeteLeo.

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    Re: From the latest issue of Boxing 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    By Gavin Evans (not a big fan of Evans. And never thought I would miss Bill Detloff's lists, but I do now.)

    20 Greatest British fighters of All Time.

    1-Lennox Lewis
    2-Jimmy WIlde
    3-Jim Driscoll
    4-Freddy Welsh
    5-Ted Kid Lewis
    6-Ken Buchanan
    7-Randy Turpin
    8-Benny Lynch
    9-Owen Moran
    10-John Conteh
    11-Naseem Hamed
    12-John H. Stracey
    13-Peter Kane
    14-Herol Graham
    15-Chris Eubank
    16-Nigel Benn
    17-Howard Winstone
    18-Alan Minter
    19-Jim Watt
    20-Freddie Mills

    Honorable Mention;

    Ricky Hatton, Joe Calzaghe

    So I'm clear: "Britain" includes England, Scotland and Wales, and "United Kingdom" includes those 3 plus Ireland too, right?

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Hawk:

    Your missing a real "biggie" on your list: Jackie "Kid" Berg. For a period of about two years from 1930 to 31 he was generally one of the top 5 P4P fighters in the world.

    Check out his record, go to the top of this page & click on Encyclopedia. Click on on Jr. welters & look at Berg's record.

    Here's the thumbnail bio I wrote about him for the Encyclopedia in '99. Berg is also one of the ALL TIME characters in the history of boxing:

    The Cyber Boxing Bio
    Jackie "Kid" Berg
    "The Whitechapel Whirlwind"

    Born: Judah Bergman, June 28, 1909,
    London, England
    Died: April 22, 1991

    Pro Record: Total bouts 192; W-157; L-26; D-9 (57 Kayoes)




    For most of it's truncated existence, the Junior Welterweight division has been one of the most maligned in boxing. At the same time, in it's ranks of champions there are some of the most storied names in boxing's history: Canzoneri, Ross, Ortiz, Loi, Loche, Cervantes, Benitez, Pryor & Chavez. All of them are current hall of famer's; or will be.

    There is one more storied name to place on that list: The one, the only . . . "Whitechapel Whirlwind," boxing immortal, Jackie "Kid" Berg.

    Berg, born Judah Bergman, was a Cockney Jew from East London who exploded upon the American boxing scene against the very tough top ten contender, Pedro Amador (W-10), in Chicago, on May 31, 1928. This was considered a real upset as British fighters (as they are to this day), were considered little more than cannon fodder for their much tougher Yankee foes.

    The Chicago fight fans had expected your typical British fighter: stand up classic stance, no upper body movement & a chin made out of the tenderest of porcelains. . . Instead they saw a whirling dervish who threw punches from every conceivable angle at a work rate which legendary trainer, Ray Arcel said exceeded even Greb's & Armstrong's.

    Jackie followed this bout with wins over Johnny Mellow & Freddie Meuller (W-10). Berg won his next four fights in rapid succession & was then matched with "The Fargo Express", fellow future hall of famer, Billy Petrolle.

    Petrolle is pretty much forgotten today, but along with Charley Burley he has to be ranked as one of the two greatest fighters to have never won a title. Jackie firmly established his bona fides by fighting to a furious draw with the great, "Fargo Express", on July 26th, who at that time was at the peak of his outstanding career. In a rematch with Billy (August 24th), he didn't fare very well. Petrolle caught him on a bad night & brutalized him with eleven knockdowns before he finally starched him in the 5th round. This was the "Kid's" first KO loss in 70 fights. In October, Berg returned against Spug Myers & was the victim of a horrendous low blow & won on a foul (W-F3).

    Depressed & very sore in his nether regions, Berg returned to London to lick his wounds. By December 6th he had recovered enough to win the British Lightweight title from Alf Mancini (W-15).

    Berg started off 1929 with wins over Lucien Vinez (January 12-W-15) & a rematch with Mancini on February 12 (W-15). Jackie actually took a three month break from fighting before he returned to the States & beat top ten ranked lightweight contender Bruce Flowers twice, both by ten round decision on May 10th & 23rd.

    Berg fought the rest of the year in New York City with one excursion to Chicago. Out of his 17 fights that year, all against top of the line fighters he won all of them with the exception of one draw against the rugged Stanislaus Loaysa.

    1930 was the high water mark of the Whitechapel Whirlwind's career. He began the year with a bang, out pointing the immortal Tony Canzoneri on January 16 (W-10), in which he dealt Tony one of his most ferocious beatings. He followed that up with a rematch against Mushy Callahan who he had decisioned the year before in a non-title match (W-10), with a KO in the 10th, for the Jr. Welter title in London on February 18th.

    Jackie's goal had always been the lightweight championship & he devoted the rest of 1930 to cleaning out the lightweight division in hopes of a shot at the (then) more legitimate lightweight crown. In the nine non-title bouts he engaged in the rest of the year, all against top 5 lightweight contenders he won them all. . . The highlight victory's were against nemesis Billy Petrolle (W-10) & the ending of another all-time great's winning streak, Kid Chocolate at 66 bouts (W-10). Chocolate was one of the greatest fighters to ever lace up the gloves-as amazing a phenom as the modern day Roy Jones Jr. & Berg's defeat of the "Kid" sent shock waves thru boxing's cogneseti .

    At that point Berg was considered among the five best pound-for-pound fighters in the world & on April 24th 1931 he was granted a shot at Tony Canzoneri's lightweight title. Unfortunately . . . this is were the worm turned for Jackie. Canzoneri beat the crap outta Berg & flattened him in 3. Canzoneri also claimed Berg's Junior Welterweight title as both were under 140 pounds. Berg was given a rematch five months later in Madison Square Garden. In a foul-infested bout in which Berg suffered at least three severe low blows, two knockdowns & a terrible gash below the eye, Canzoneri battered him enough too retain his titles by unanimous decision (W-15).

    Even though Berg fought on for another decade that was the end of his career as a prime-time performer. Jackie, like fellow Jr. Welter champ Aaron Pryor; was one of those gifted athletes that was destined to blaze hotly like a comet streaking across the fistic sky's only to burn out suddenly, without warning. . . & leave nothing but the memories of their too-brief past glories.

    The Cyber Boxing Zone Bio by GorDoom

    © 1999 The Cyber Boxing Zone

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Heavyweights
    1. Bob Fitzsimmons
    2. Lennox Lewis
    3. Tommy Farr
    4. Bruce Woodcock
    5. Henry Cooper
    6. Joe Bugner
    7. Frank Bruno
    8. “Bombardier” Billy Wells
    9. Tom Cowler
    10. Len Harvey

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    Re: From the latest issue of Boxing 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    By Gavin Evans
    20 Greatest British fighters of All Time.

    1-Lennox Lewis
    2-Jimmy WIlde
    3-Jim Driscoll
    4-Freddy Welsh
    5-Ted Kid Lewis
    6-Ken Buchanan
    7-Randy Turpin
    8-Benny Lynch
    9-Owen Moran
    10-John Conteh
    11-Naseem Hamed
    12-John H. Stracey
    13-Peter Kane
    14-Herol Graham
    15-Chris Eubank
    16-Nigel Benn
    17-Howard Winstone
    18-Alan Minter
    19-Jim Watt
    20-Freddie Mills

    Honorable Mention;

    Ricky Hatton, Joe Calzaghe
    I would maybe replace either Eubank & Stacey with Jack 'Kid' Berg and Jock McAvoy.

    My Honorable Mention;

    Bert Gilroy, Tommy Farr, Len Harvey, Micheal Watson & Nel Tarleton.

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    Heavyweights
    1. Bob Fitzsimmons
    2. Lennox Lewis
    3. Tommy Farr
    4. Bruce Woodcock
    5. Henry Cooper
    6. Joe Bugner
    7. Frank Bruno
    8. “Bombardier” Billy Wells
    9. Tom Cowler
    10. Len Harvey
    I think the top two is lightyears ahead of anyone on this list. Not saying the rest are bums. It's just these two really stand out.

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Lennox Lewis isn't light-years ahead of anyone, never mind the very top in the field.

    This group mentioned are all great and worthy competitors and the Atlantic divide was no where near as wide as what people keep mistakenly percieve... proper cross referencing of the TOP Brit & EURO fighters often demonstrates this.

    case in point BEST Example Robert Villimain!

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    If you are ranking UK across all weight classes, Wilde, Driscoll and Kid Lewis should be above Lennox IMO.

    Good call on Tom Cowler, perusing his record at his peak he beat some very good fighters including Bill Brennan, Gunboat Smith, Al Reich and a past-it Joe Jeannette.

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Gler, whaddabout Lynch over Lewis?

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    We might be able to add David Haye to the list in the future..........time will tell.

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Very unlikely, Steve. All Time Great heavyweights do not get knocked out by a 40 year old cruiserweight like Carl Daniels.

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim glen
    Lennox Lewis isn't light-years ahead of anyone, never mind the very top in the field.

    This group mentioned are all great and worthy competitors and the Atlantic divide was no where near as wide as what people keep mistakenly percieve... proper cross referencing of the TOP Brit & EURO fighters often demonstrates this.

    case in point BEST Example Robert Villimain!

    Jim

    At Heavyweight where would you rate Johnny Williams?

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    K.O, I have a hard time with ratings in general, because they are mainly based on acheivements... all very well at face value, but that very quickly and erroneously too often gets translated into, that Calzaghe, for example, ends up beating "the TRUE Great MW's", Oh really? and how and when did that come about?

    I like to "try" and evaluate fighters on Head to Head, Who beats Who more often than not, based on their excellence, status and longeviety, ... and that's perfect and more accurate. EXCEPT that you have to be a right good historian, because we simply don't know enough about a lot of worthy and elligable fighters and sometimes NOTHING or very little at all.

    that aside, when I first began reading about Jack Gardner, I thought he was the next British HW hopeful, and he was, BUT Jack got put aside by Williams and Cockell ran ahead of the two of them! So sometimes what should be isn't.

    It's my understanding that Johnny Williams was a clever, rugged and tidy fighter. He belonged to the right people, Broadribb and Solomons so the chances were there. But British HW's just didn't quite deliver in the end, BUT some could have, might have!

    I think Farr and Woodcock were the best, they just seemed stronger and up to it more, but ruined and not properly supported by the British fight fraturnity. I think Williams was as capable as most of the rest and belongs in the pantheon of British Bigmen, though he was more a L-HW cum HW like Mills & Cockell, definately in the top 25, probably fitting in & around 15-20. This figure of 25 allows us to include the one's we 'most' know about and to carefully consider others that sometimes miss the ink!

    btw I met Williams a couple of years before he died and spent appro x 1 and half hrs, with him. He remembered his days and all the TOP men with great affection. Jim.

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    We might be able to add David Haye to the list in the future..........time will tell.
    you know I'm still a believer in him, even though he stunk the joint out with Vital. I also believe what he said about this coming fight with Chisora, who needs the Kilts this is bigger than both of them.

    IF Haye beats Chisora in classy boxing and hard punching form, well then he's back up for the Klits, but Chisora has got some resilence I must say and bothered big klit alot.

    I'm expecting NO EASY win for Haye, but trusting he'll do it in good fashion!

    still a believer, thoughts?

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    Re: From the latest issue of Boxing 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by KOJOE90 View Post
    I would maybe replace either Eubank & Stacey with Jack 'Kid' Berg and Jock McAvoy.

    My Honorable Mention;

    Bert Gilroy, Tommy Farr, Len Harvey, Micheal Watson & Nel Tarleton.
    I'd remove Hamed. He ducked his mandatory Juan Manuel Marquez (who would have done a Barrera on him) and quit after suffering his first defeat once he fought some one with real boxing skills (Barrera). Emanuel Stewart stated on an HBO broadcast that Marquez was a bad match up for him and admitted they avoided him.

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    5 days and counting, I'm still hopefull Haye can earn his way back to HW recognition and be a champion there!

    this fight SHOULD be lethal!

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    Re: Top Ten British Heavyweights All Time.

    Haye's moving UP, but NOT IN!

    as I expressed in the Chisora/Haye thread, he is good but just too small for the S-HWs...

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