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In any other era after the 1920s, Jack Dempsey would have
fought Harry Wills. While I think that Harry Wills got a terrible
deal, he was active at a time when many top white fighters
didn't go out of their way to fight top black fighters.
- Chuck Johnston
H to M: Great post and insights.
Write and engage us more !!!!
theres a photo of him & al jolson standing together when he was training for the ko brennan fight in '20.... that shows perfectly the type of build you were alluding to... it can easily be seen by going to:
corbis.com
<<< when you get to the site, put in the phrase:
dempsey jolson
into the search engine and click search... the
photo will come up... you can double click the photo
itself to enlarge it. If someone can transport the image
onto this site, please go ahead >>>
Last edited by HandToMouth; 05-18-2006 at 06:39 PM.
No one is in any doubt that Dempsey was tough and could take a punch, although of course he never took them of Louis, Listen, Marciano. Foreman, Tyson etc etc. Who all said and done i think most people with any knowledge in the history of boxing would have to say were a little better then Jacks opposition. Hell Marciano gets knocked for the versions of Louis, Walcott and Charles that he fought. But i would take a bet these three would be a match even at the stage they took on Rocky, for nearly all, if not all of the opponents that Jack won against. In regard to the Willis fight it never happened for what ever reason. So what's left for me to judge just how good in fact Jack really was is to look again at the fighters he took on.
As for someone saying Dempsey hurt all his sparring partners well sparring against average or under opposition is not quite the same as taking some left hooks from Frazier, or deadly accurate hard punches from Louis or a full blooded shot from Liston or Forman or even a right hand from Lennex Lewis. I also read about Jack knocking down or out that reporter. Hardly a big deal for any decent pro fighter to do let alone a HW Champion.
I of course know how aggressive and deadly Dempsey could be in a ring but at the same time guys like the other Champions i mentioned would not exactly be sitting there having a cup of coffee when Jack attacked them. Again keeping in mind that these were i feel a class above Dempseys actual competition and most again hit a little harder then those who Jack had looked good against.
I also fail to see why people are so impressed by Dempsey in the Williard fight. Jess in boxing terms was an old man and hardly the man he was a few years back. Even at his peak Willard was not exactly one i would regard as a good let alone great HW. I agree Dempsey broke him up but i think most of the hard hitting champions who came later could have done pretty much the same to the Willard that Jack beat. Considering that some seem to think Dempsey hit harder then most of the big hitters lets face it, Willard was almost defenceless and still Jack could not get a clean KO over the old guy. For me anyway the fight that told me Dempsey could have been one of the very best was the last Tunney fight when a less then prime Jack nearly pulled it off. If only he had stayed active and in shape for a few more years as champion he perhaps could have cemented his legacy a lot better. But we cant change history so for me anyway there will always be a little doubt as to where to place him on the all time great list. I really would love to be able to say i think Jack was the number one HW but with hand on heart i just cant.
I admit i do have a soft spot for Dempsey because as a youngster back in the early 50s he was the first old time fighter i read a book on and of course then wanted to find out a lot more about him. Truth is the more i found out about his life the more i loved the guy. In spite of my posts in this thread, in the past i have defended Jacks right to be among the all time greats on other boxing boards. I do have Jack among my top ten HWs. I just dont see him based on my knowledge of him taking the number one or two spot from Ali and Louis who for me anyway stand a shade clear of the rest. Although i feel it would be a hard task for even Ali or Louis to win 3 fights on the trot against those who come a little lower on a top 10 list. I think my safe bet is to place Dempsey just outside the top five in the All Time Great Heavy List and leave it at that.
Now tomorrow i might have a change of heart and just place him behind Ali and Louis. This final paragraph i guess sums up my thoughts on Dempsey. I know he was a great fighter, my problem is i cant for the life of me decide just how great he was.
It comes back to my point that the man gets an incomplete due to inactivity and quality of opposition. We know he showed great talents but they regressed in what should have been his prime due to the lifestyle he chose. He participated in some dramatic moments in an era that thristed for, defined itself by and memoralized them. However on actual accomplishment underclose examination, it's simply not a great amount of actual backup. A ton of could have beens...H to M's Namath comparison was fantastic.
Last edited by HE Grant; 05-19-2006 at 06:02 AM.
?????Originally Posted by wildhawke11
Willard is in the HOF. He beat previous title contender Moran, HOFer champ Johnson, and contenders Roedal, Morris, and Pelkey. He'd only had 32 fights when he fought Dempsey and never ever even been on the canvas. He was 37, but he was also as big and strong as he had ever been and his style was not predicated on reflexes and finely honed skills. Sure don't sound like some boxing old timer to me. He was much rustier and ring worn after the Dempsey beating, and 4 yrs older when he disposed of well regarded Floyd Johnson in his comeback fight.
Johnson pounded on Jeff for at least 15 rds in their fight and couldn't even budge him. What Dempsey did to him is widely accepted as the most brutal destruction of any fighter in history.
I submit that version of Willard would have beat the Burns that Johnson won his title from, beat the Fitz that Jeffries won his title from, and beat John L, Hart and Root too.
the facts are once dempsey broke out from under kearns control... he did actually try to sign the fight w/ wills... the financing fell thru... the idea that he would be scared of a fighter who was custom made for his skills (big and not that fast) is ridiculous... documented evidence below shows the signing.... click link
www.antekprizering.com/dempseywillstelegram.html
Last edited by HandToMouth; 05-19-2006 at 04:44 PM.
Roberto
Yes he is in the HOF no arguments on that one. Just like many other fighters. My own feelings are only the best should get in there because i think to many fighters get elected anyway. I personally would have raised the bar a little right from the beginning. Then it really would mean something for a fighter to be elected. If you feel different i dont have a problem with that.
In regard to Willard being just as strong and lets say as fit as he was a few years before the Dempsey fight if you think he was fine. But many i feel would feel a little different including me.
As for the what Dempsey did to Willard being the most brutal beating any fighter ever got. I dont remember disputing that one. Now if it was at all possible that he could had done the same to Liston, Louis or Tyson then yes that might impress me a little more then beating up on Jess. But if some are impressed with it, so be it.
As for the Willard that fought Dempsey beating Burns, Fitz etc etc maybe your right or maybe your wrong so your guess is as good as mine on that one.
Last edited by wildhawke11; 05-19-2006 at 12:52 PM.
He's in the Hall of Fame ????? That's your argument for Willard being a worthy, true test for Dempsey at 37 and one fight in four years ???
Hey, the Ali that fought Berbick and Holmes is in the Hall. So is the Louis defeated by Charles. Does that mean their loses reflect their hall of fame best?
I've watched the Willard-Dempsey fight many times & I defy anyone to point out ONE clean punch that Willard landed ... He was just a big piece of meat that not only had no offense but no defense either.
But man, he was one tough sum' bitch! As Danny aptly pointed out despite the barrage from Dempsey he wasn't counted out. He took a helluva beating, one of the worst I've ever seen & he took it like a man.
& for that alone Ol' Jess deserves respect.
GorDoom
No, I laid out much more than that, but your agenda is narrow. Willard came back from a 4 yr layoff and KOed highly regarded Floyd Johnson at 41 yrs of age. Ali lost to Holmes and Berbick and couldn't break an egg at an younger age. Can you imagine Jess losing to NeonLeon? He'd knock the rest of Leon's teeth out.
Willard had 2 fights and numerous exhibitions as part of a Wild West show in between Dempsey and Jack Johnson. Study up!
a few minor swiping arm punches out of clinches in the first rd before the first knockdown is all I could see after watching it again... after that he was basically holding on for life...
something I noticed for the first time in slow motion was the level of ferocity of that particular dempsey right cross near the end of the rd... it was the one he caught willard w/ near the corner on the ropes... the punch that sent willard sprawling all the way across laterally to the other corner of the ring...
I point it out b/c I always assumed in watching that first knockdown, that the left hook was the most devasting shot willard took... seeing this right cross closer it becomes a closer call... It probaly still is the hook though b/c of the leverage its unloaded w/... so much so it shattered his cheekbone... slowing it down frame by frame, willards head moves so violently to the other side under impact that it looks like hes been shot... even considering fraziers left hook in ali 1, I'd still say that dempsey left hook was the single most devasting shovel left hook I've seen in boxing... not only was the timing perfect, but it uncorked out of a four punch combination... again, if you see it frame by frame, you can clearly see dempsey started w/ it almost near his knees & then distributed full weight thru it...
that said, back to the later right cross in the round... that punch landed w/ almost as much devastion... it knocked him senseless.. I wonder if that was the shot wh/ blew out his eardrum... I always overlooked the punch some before b/c of what the prior ones had already done... but in close inspection it shows dempsey's right could be as brutal as his left.
in re to toughness your right, willard was as tough as they come... can you imagine the soreness he woke up to the next day! .. for starters both sides of his jaw were devasted & several of his ribs were cracked... he lost teeth & ive heard had his nose broken too... how did the guy eat or let alone breathe w/o unbearing pain..
I wonder if a true medical examination was ever documented anywhere -or- if one of his handlers was ever directly quoted in re to the severity of the bodily damage willard took...do any photos exsist of him the day after the fight?
I've heard some claim, the broken bone, shattered ear drum, teeth tally was hype & good fodder for film sales... but when you watch the film that left hook & right cross in particular were cannon shots.. hard to think they didnt do bust up something considering your dealing w/ 4 oz gloves...
to me the brutality of the sports and times are best reflected in what would seem insane today.. & that is willard actually caught flack from several circles that he was a quitter by not going out and taking more in round 4... this was in re to a fighter who was supposedly sitting on his stool going into boneshaking convulsions from trauma... definitly another time... oldschool.
I remember reading once, maybe in Ring Magazine, that between rounds during that awful beating Willard was muttering to himself: "I'm Jess Willard, I'm making a hundred thousand dollars & I own my own farm".
Whatever it takes to motivate you I guess ... But a hundred grand (back then it was probably equivelant to a million & there was no income tax at the time - & owning my own farm sure wouldn't have motivated me to take a beating like that!
GorDoom
I thought you guys might find this interesting. It's a bio of Big Jess written by his grandson for the CBZ:
Jess Willard
(the "Pottawatomie Giant")
BORN December 29 1881; St. Clere, Kansas
DIED December 16 1968; Los Angeles, California
HEIGHT 6-5 (Most sources report 6-6 1/4)
WEIGHT 225-265 lbs
MANAGER J.D. Brock, A.W. Phillips, Tom Jones
Willard was big and strong and a very hard hitter; He had a tough chin and was able to take considerable punishment; He also moved very well for a large man; Jess was a much better fighter than given credit in recent years; He was a White Hope of the teens
Willard was elected to the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1977
Cyber Boxing Champion -- Jess Willard
by Jim Mace
[Editor's note: It is with great pleasure that we publish this biography by Jess Willard's grandson, Jim Mace. Articles such as this make us proud of being able to harness the power of the internet to preserve boxing's wonderful history and, as importantly, to meet truly nice people! Mike DeLisa]
Even within the long-ago memories or recollections of boxing historians and fans of famous prizefighters, the name Jess Willard has almost fallen victim to near insignificance. Jess Willard, the one-time heavyweight boxing champion of the world, and who alone earned the title, "The Great White Hope", has faded from memory, compared to his predecessor Jack Johnson, and his rival, Jack Dempsey.
One wonders if historians have all the facts, considering that a little thing like Jess Willard's incorrect date of birth curiously never seems to get corrected. Jess Willard was born December 29, 1881 (not 1883) in St. Clere, Kansas. He was the youngest of four brothers born to Myron and Margaret Willard. Willard's father died in October of 1881, at age 37 from wounds received in the Civil War. Jess' mother remarried in 1891 to a man named Elisha Stalker, who had children from a previous marriage.
As Jess, his older brothers and stop brothers grew up on Mr. Stalker's ranch, the chores of the boys was as normal and customary as most of farm people. Jess got along with his brothers and step-brothers, but never liked going to school. It should be noted that Willard's first love was horses, and from his teens to adulthood, got work on ranches working with horses. Because Jess Willard was an unusually large man -- even in his teens (his brothers were of normal stature) -- he found that he was not suitable to become a cowboy. So, he did the next best thing: He broke and trained horses, sometimes obtaining the horses from the Pottawotamie Indians, and selling them to ranchers or the cowboys themselves.
Jess Willard grew up in the same area as the young girl he would someday marry. Her name was Harriet Evans, but is historically known as "Hattie". She was born in 1885. Jess and Hattie were married on March 13, 1908 in Leavenworth, Kansas.
For employment, Jess worked in the livery stable business. He and Hattie moved all over the Midwest for Jess' line of work, landing in Oklahoma and Texas. It was also reported that he almost got work as a policeman in Oklahoma City.
There is no positive story as to how Jess got into boxing, but it probably started in December 1910, in Oklahoma City. While hanging around the Union Athletic Club, he saw his very first staged bout. It was December 30, 1910, between two welterweights, Harry Brewer and Clarence English.
Jess Willard's first exhibition bouts were in 1911; and so insignificant were they, that names of the opponents were not even recorded. Jess lost his first exhibition bout in the 3rd round, but won his 2nd bout in the 6th. The first known recorded exhibition bout of Willard's was on February 8, 1911. It was a 4-round bout with Billy Evart; and another exhibition on the same day, with Frank Mayo for 5 rounds.
Jess Willard's actual and very first fight was with Louis Fink, which was staged February 15, 1911, in Sapulpa, Oklahoma. Willard lost by a foul in the 10th round. Thereafter, Willard fought in at least 20 other bouts and exhibitions in 1911. On Victor McLaglen in Springfield, Missouri. Victor McLaglen became a well-known film actor of the 1930s and ‘40s, and who was known for his roles with John Wayne.
In 1912 Willard had 13 bouts and exhibitions. In 1913 he fought 13 more bouts, the most noted being with "Gunboat" Smith, and "Bull" Young, who died as a result of Willard's punches.
From 1908, the world of heavyweight boxing and all of the U.S., was looking for someone to take the championship away from Jack Johnson, the black Heavyweight who became Champion that year. Racism was strong enough in the U.S. back then; and being a black athlete, and a black champion at anything, was very unpopular. So, the boxing world was looking for someone to put Jack Johnson -- this black man -- to the mat, and "bring the championship back to the white race." Jack Johnson's boxing style was not the subject of "sluggers", but of "speed." The question was, who could beat him. No white heavyweight fighter of that era seemed to earn the respect and marks of someone who could do the job. Not even Jim Jeffries, who came out of retirement in 1910 to try, but failed. A catch phrase arose, "A Great White Hope". What white hope was there who could beat Jack Johnson. That "white hope" became Jess Willard.
With Jack Johnson was on the run throughout the U.S. and South America for evading prosecution of "importation of women for prostitution", promoters finally arranged a site for a Willard-Johnson championship bout, first Juarez, Mexico, and then finally Havana, Cuba. Willard fought only 3 bouts in 1914.
In the meantime, Willard was cast in a 1-reel short film, "The Heart Punch". It was made in late 1914, but not released until February of 1915. As the record already shows it, Willard beat Johnson in 26 rounds of a scheduled 45-round bout, in simmering 100 degree plus humid temperatures of Havana. After the Johnson fight, Willard only boxed 4 other fights -- all exhibitions. Suddenly, Jess Willard was very popular -- in the world of boxing, of course, for bringing back the championship to the "white race," and in the U.S. lucrative offers abounded -- the movies, the stage. Willard did a stint in vaudeville at Hammersteins' Victoria Theatre in New York, but the biggest deal was with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, and later the 101 Ranch Wild West Show, which he owned and operated from 1916-1918.
In 1916, Willard fought 6 times, one with Frank Moran. There were probably countless exhibitions in 1917, while with the 101 Ranch Wild West Show; and 4 recorded bouts in 1918.
In 1919, just before Willard took on Jack Dempsey, he made a 7-reel feature film, "The Challenge of Chance," the only feature film he ever starred in.
The 24 year-old Dempsey beat Willard over three rounds -- one of the most controversial bouts in history. No one can know for sure now, but photos of Willard's bruised body on one side only, plus the logic of a man going to the mat several times in the firstt round, but not again thereafter -- hints of something very suspicious in the fairness of that bout.
Jess Willard retired from the ring . . . sort of. He fought in a half dozen exhibition bouts in 1922 in Los Angeles and San Francisco, California; and in 1923 made two attempts to make a comeback by fighting Floyd Johnson, TKOing Johnson in the 11th round. The last was in the same year, losing to Luis Firpo in the 8th round.
Jess and Hattie had 5 children -- 3 girls and 2 boys. The first, Zella, was born in 1909. She was followed by another daughter, Frances, born inn 1911. Their first son, Jess Jr., was born in 1913, followed by another daughter, Enid, in 1914, and then a son, Alan, in 1916. Willard sold his Lawrence, Kansas ranch house in 1921 and moved employment for himself. One was in real-estate. Another was owning the first ranch market, which was in Hollywood, on the corner of Vine and Afton. Jess Willard also earned his livelihood refereeing wrestling matches, which he tolerated, and disclosed of his firsthand knowledge of its fakery. In 1933 he appeared in a bit part in a boxing movie, "The Prizefighter and the Lady", with Max Baer and Myrna Loy.
Willard did some work overseas with the USO during WWII, but for the most part was a retired citizen. All but one of his children were married by the mid 1940s, and he had 6 grandchildren by 1953. Jess and Hattie lived in a couple of homes in the Los Angeles and Glendale areas before moving to their last house in the San Fernando Valley.
Jess Willard lived to the age of almost 87, when he died on December 15, 1968.
© 1996 Jim Mace
1910
Dec 25 Kid Ferns Oklahoma City, Ok EX
Dec 26 Kid Ferns Oklahoma City, Ok EX
1911
Feb 8 Billy Evart Oklahoma City, Ok EX 4
Feb 8 Frank Mayo Oklahoma City, Ok EX 5
-The previous 2 bouts were held the same date
Feb 15 Louis "Thunder" Fink Sapulpa, Ok LF 10
-Willard was disqualified
Mar 7 Ed Burke El Reno, Ok KO 3
Mar 24 Louis "Thunder" Fink Oklahoma City, Ok KO 3
-Some sources report 3/28/11
Apr 11 Battling Britt El Reno, Ok SCH
-This bout was scheduled but not held;
Britt backed out
Apr 11 Patsy Corrigan El Reno, Ok EX
Apr 11 Frank Mayo El Reno, Ok EX
Apr 11 E.A. Cruse El Reno, Ok EX
-The previous 3 bouts were held the same date
Apr 14 Al Mandino Oklahoma City, Ok KO 4
Apr 29 Joe Cavanaugh Oklahoma City, Ok KO 11
May 15 William Schiller Oklahoma City, Ok KO 4
-Some sources report 6/08/11
Jul 4 Frank Lyon Elk City, Ok W 10
Jul 5 W.O. Stuckey Cheyenne, Ok SCH
-This bout was scheduled; The outcome is not known
Oct 11 Joe Cox Springfield, Mo L 5
-Willard claimed he was instructed by the referee
"not to box" and retired
Oct Victor McLaglen Springfield, Mo EX
1912
May 23 John "Bull" Young Fort Wayne, In KO 6
Jun 29 Frank Bowers St. Charles, Il KO 3
Jul 2 John "Bull" Young South Chicago, Il KO 5
Jul 29 Arthur Pelkey New York, NY ND 10
Aug 19 Luther McCarty New York, NY ND 10
Dec 2 "Sailor" Charles White Buffalo, NY KO 1
Dec 27 Alfred "Soldier" Kearns New York, NY KO 8
1913
Jan 22 Frank Bauer Fort Wayne, In KO 5
Mar 5 Jack Leon Fort Wayne, In KO 4
May 20 Ed "Gunboat" Smith Colma, Ca L 20
-Some sources report "San Francisco, Ca"
Jun 27 Charlie Miller San Francisco, Ca D 4
Jul 4 Al Williams Reno, Nv TK 8
-Some sources report "W 8"
Aug 22 John "Bull" Young Vernon, Ca KO 11
-Young died from broken neck received in the fight
Nov 17 George "Boer" Rodel Milwaukee, Wi ND 10
Nov 24 Jack Reed Fort Wayne, In KO 2
Dec 3 Carl Morris New York, NY ND 10
Dec 12 George "One-Round" Davis Buffalo, NY KO 2
Dec 29 George "Boer" Rodel New Haven, Ct KO 9
1914
Mar 27 Tom "Bearcat" McMahon Youngstown, Oh ND 12
-Some sources report "L 12"
Apr 13 Dan Daily Buffalo, NY KO 9
Apr 28 George "Boer" Rodel Atlanta, Ga KO 6
1915
Feb 24 "Sailor" Jack Carroll Kansas City, Mo EX 3
Feb Walter Monahan in Texas EX
Apr 5 Jack Johnson Havana, Cuba KO 26
-Heavyweight Championship of the World
Apr 10 Walter Monahan Philadelphia, Pa EX 3
Hugh Walker EX 3
May 14 Fred Fulton Rochester, Mn EX 4
1916
Mar 25 Frank Moran New York, NY ND 10
-Heavyweight Championship of the World
Aug 8 Alfred "Soldier" Kearns Plattsburg, NY EX 2
Sep 12 Sailor Burke Bridgeport, Ct W 6
1918
Jul 4 Jim Golden Fort Riley, Ks EX 10
Jul 18 Tim Logan Chester, Pa EX 10
1919
Jun Walter Monahan Maumee, Oh EX
-Willard sparred often with Monahan in preparation
for his bout with Dempsey
Jul 4 Jack Dempsey Toledo, Oh LT 3
-Heavyweight Championship of the World
1922
Nov 15 an unnamed opponent Hollywood, Ca EX
Nov 15 an unnamed opponent Hollywood, Ca EX
Nov 15 Tom Kennedy Hollywood, Ca EX 2
Nov 15 Joe Bonds Hollywood, Ca EX 2
-The previous 4 bouts were held the same date
Dec 19 Scotty Messer Portland, Or EX 2
Dec 19 Jim Borden Portland, Or EX 1
-Willard knocked Borden out;
The previous 2 bouts were held the same date
Dec 20 Scotty Messer Milwaukee, Or EX 2
Dec 20 Tom Barnson Milwaukee, Or EX 2
-The previous 2 bouts were held the same date
Dec 27 Frank Farmer Yakima, Wa EX
Dec 27 Alden Schumacher Yakima, Wa EX
-The previous 2 bouts were held the same date
Dec 28 Frank Farmer Yakima, Wa EX 3
Dec 28 Alden Schumacher Yakima, Wa EX 3
Dec 28 Frank Farmer Tacoma, Wa EX
-The previous 3 bouts were held the same date
1923
Feb 19 Harry Drake Detroit, Mi EX 4
May 12 Floyd Johnson Bronx, NY TK 11
Jul 12 Luis Angel Firpo Jersey City, NJ LK 8
Nick Newman Atchison, Ks EX 6
1926
Jimmy O'Gatty New York, NY EX 3
*** The Following Bout Is Reported But Not Confirmed ***
1911
Jul 16 Mike Comiskey Hammond, Ok W 10
-Some sources report "Mike McKimminsky" on 8/10/11
*** NCR ALL-TIME HEAVYWEIGHT COMPUTER TOURNAMENT ***
1968
Joe Louis LK 15
Record courtesy of Tracy Callis and Arly Allen, Historians, International Boxing Research Organization
fact is nobody--alive knows the injuries sustained in that fight--willard defianatley had his right checkbone severly damaged--his face never looked the same follwing that bout and later yeasr would let anybody feel the bones on that area move about.dempsey was a natural right hander but used it 65 precent more to body than to head. just before the first kd dempsey landed one of the hardest body shots ever. dempsaey would try to be accuate but many a time his opponents did not seem whillimng yo excahnge at all--so dempsey would hit to nech,forehead. sideof head, shoulders.chest,heart.ribbs.anywhere he could and work around this--because it was so hard-and then maybe be more accurate. dempsey always thought his hardest punch was the old time right to jaw or body. just as his right hand set up the vica versa was true.no dobt
HandToMouth,
Read post #108, i go into it in more detail.
Yes, Dempsey savagely beat Jess Willard, I don't know why you guys are so in awe of it. I mean if Willard had stayed down from say the second or third knockdown, would you guys be less impressed ? Another thing, none of you guys ever mention the huge advantage that Dempsey and other sluggers of the era had of the no mandatory eight count or no neutral corner rule. That was a huge advantage for Dempsey, especially against Willard and Firpo. Don't you guys think that Louis, Marciano, Foreman, or Tyson would have looked awesome if they got to stand behind a downed foe and got free shots in, when the fighter tried to get up ? Not taking anything away from Dempsey, those were the rules of the era, but a lot of post WWII sluggers would have been great finishers if there wasn't a neutral corner or mandatory eight count rule.
Jess Willard was a stiff, who fought with both of his hands at waist level, and was slower than molases. His chin had to look like a beach ball to Dempsey. why that fight amazes some of you, is beyond me. Mike Tyson demolishing Peter McNeely or any of the stiffs he blasted out, doesn't wow me either.
the only ones who thought willard was a stiff were the ones who never fought him. i never saw dempsey getting his head handed to him in his prime the way louis and tyson did for that matter. whatever adversity dempsey faced ,he met it and then;took it apart;;how many times was dempsey kdown with somebody else standing up above him---you have to adjust to the circuntances.
Don't think Tyson ever landed any punches on McNeely. At any rate, if Willard is a "stiff" then so was Johnson, Burns, Hart.
Every era gives advantages to certain fighters. You seem to all of a sudden want to penalize Dempsey for rules that were in place decades before he fought.
How many of today's hotshots could hold their hands and noggins together for 50 fights in 6 oz gloves before being graced with their first title shot over 15-20 rounds?
Willard was not a stiff. He was very large, extremely strong, a terrific right hand hitter, had a decent jab, excellent stamina and a tremendous chin. He would be a champ today for sure. However, when he fought Dempsey he was old, (now 39 opposed to 37 if you believe the article) and highly inactive matched up against exactly the worst style opponent for him, a guy that was in his prime, highly active, a tremendous hitter and lightning fast.
By the way, I was rereading "The Long Count" last night, an excellent book, and Dempsey himself said something honest and direct. He said that after 1920 he was no longer the same fighter that beat Willard. He said he knew this in his heart. He did not have the hunger and he was not active, exactly what I and others have been saying here all along.
Of course Roberto or Pee Wee might know better since they spoke with him last night....
It'll never get well if you keep picking at it that way, Little One.
Oh, and by the way, if we're taking everything that Dempsey says in all of his four "autobiographies" (you know, "never the same after Willard," "scared of Langford") as the Gospel, then here's one you bashers must somehow reconcile to your "He ran from Wills like a little girl" mantras: on several occasions in these personal accounts, Jack said unequivocally that he wished he had gotten the chance to fight Harry, because he was sure he could have beaten him and always had the number of those bigger guys. Well, now, was he an early day Bob Arum, spinning lies one minute and honest as a Boy Scout the next? If so, who gets to decide what's truth and what's the invention of his fertile imagination?
Ah, Granny, still dancing in the minefield. You're a dilly, all right. PeteLeo.
It's a good thing you sign each post Pete Leo because we'd never know....
What's great about the threads are that we can track who said what and if really compelled, can easily list where you put your foot in your mouth (again) by confusing who wrote what about whom. It's actually kind of funny Pee Wee.
My-my-my, there are so many strange mysteries facing the human race today, such as does Bigfoot exist? Will we ever be able to decipher Einstein's Unified Field Theory? If life on Earth really was seeded by organic compounds contained in meteorites and comets, where did those bodies pick up said compounds? How can certain celestial bodies seem to be both approaching our world and receding from it at the same time?
And the biggest mystery of them all: how can HeGranny continue to throw out wild-eyed accusations of other people's "lies, misapprehensions, and 'foot-in-mouth' moments" only to completely disappear once the targets of his silly little attacks demand to know when, where, and how they "lied, misunderstood , etc." When called to back up his charges, the fickle finger of fate decrees that HG must be somewhere else, engaged in some other vital activity. Darn, if only he had the time, I'm sure he'd document his seemingly ridiculous indictments of those who disagree with his keen insights and conclusions (you know, virtually everyone else on the planet), but circumstances act against this, I suppose.
Why do I sign my posts? Habit added to the fact that I'm willing to answer to anything I've said in them. Surprisingly, that doesn't always prove to be the case among certain posters. But what are you going to do? PeteLeo.
You two ever thought of starting a comedy act together? You could be the 21st century's Abbot & Costello.
GorDoom
been watching the louis special. arcel seems to be in almost every corner from sharkey and braddock though b baer and lou nova . they must have made five of hin-m. nearly every corner from the thirties-fifties he was there. furasi vs robinson,ross armstrong,chales and zale, its amazing.
Man, just think of all of the fistic talent that guy saw. I wonder if he ever wrote an autobio?
What did you think about Lou Duva claiming Rocky was crying in his dressing room not only because he had to obliterate Joe, but also because he (Rocky) knew that he could have and should have knocked out the Old Champ a lot earlier than the eighth? A bit of cheerleading for Marciano (Duva calls him the greatest heavyweight ever), or just the poignant truth? PeteLeo.
Last edited by PeteLeo; 05-20-2006 at 10:22 PM.
Gor don't team me up with that nut...pick one of the other five guys he fights with...
Typical Pee Wee ...loves to hear himself, over writes each passage like he's last man in on a high school newspaper, tries to impress others but only embarasses himself with incorrect facts, inconsistencies and below average intelligence and of course ending each "passage" with his tag , PeteLeo, as if anyone else would take credit for his gibberish.
C'mon Evan, Pete's a good guy. I like both of you guys. If you can't get along just stop dialoging with each other. But either way, you guys gotta stop calling each other names & insulting each other.
Best solution: If you can't get along simply don't post to each other.
GorDoom
Or arrange either a private or public "meeting" like Dempsey woulda done!
on regards to arcel-just about anybody who met him asked hin to write a book--he was always told there was no or little money for such to be published. so, he never did.Boxing history did not sell,at all--before the interent era.
Gosh, I didn't know occasionally proof-reading my stuff and signing it was such a hot-button tactic. I'll try to do better in the future. (Still waiting for even one instance of an addled fact, lie, or misrepresentation in any of my posts, but -- as they say --, I'm not holding my breath.)
Now, Stephen G., no more of these "Gordoom" endings to your comments. We really don't want to upset any delicate psyches out there.
As for Arcel, maybe someday someone will locate a diary in a desk drawer or something. He did some eye-opening interviews on HBO back in the Eighties (I think it was). Knowledge like that should be community property. PeteLeo (oh, darn! I did it again! I guess I'll just have to have Angelina spank me again tonight!).
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