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Thread: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

  1. #1
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    Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Who would win this bout, over 15 rounds? True boxer vs a puncher, solid hooks vs a solid jaw and amazing movement. A think Tyson would become fustrated at alis movement and result 2 butting and elbows. Making it a bruising points victory for 'The Greatest' Ali.

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Ali easy.

    The only guy tyson has a chance against is the > Norton 76 version of Ali. Similarly, the 99 tyson wouldn't do anything against a 67 Ali.


    Ali would beat him up mentally before the bout even started. Once the fight transpired, tyson doesn't have the footwork to plant his feet to nail Ali or catch a moving target that can punch while moving.. Even if he catches Ali with a big shot, Ali would go into a defensive shell or tie him up easily.

    In the meantime, Ali's flicking jab and straight rights would discourage Tyson from his aggressive style so much more effective against the big easy to hit guys. And he'd land a lot of punches in there. Late round stoppage due to swelling or cuts and Muhammad Ali would take him apart a round or 2 prior to the tko.

  3. #3
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Quote Originally Posted by craigpanther
    Who would win this bout, over 15 rounds? True boxer vs a puncher, solid hooks vs a solid jaw and amazing movement. A think Tyson would become fustrated at alis movement and result 2 butting and elbows. Making it a bruising points victory for 'The Greatest' Ali.
    Ali was not a true boxer. He had a very unique style that was short of some of the traditional boxing skills. He used his natural talents in a unique way that meshed seamlessly with his mental attributes. Before his talent meshed though, Ali showed vulnerablity, and after the talent aged, he also showed vulnerability.

    Tyson was more than a puncher. He was a supreme boxer/puncher with no obvious weaknesses at his best. Later on his mental weaknesses surfaced when he lost proper support with the deaths of his boxing mentors.

    What are Ali's best to best victories compared to Tysons?

    I throw out Liston for the obvious controversies and that Ali had shown many flaws before the Liston series, so for Ali that would be Frazier, Terrell, Chuvalo. For Tyson that would be Spinks, Tucker, and Thomas.

    Some will say Ali was not his best against Frazier. I disagree. He was only 29, and had 2 tuneups against contenders and Bonavena put him in a fight for his life that he needed before facing Frazier. If we throw out Frazier, then we'd have to sub out Mildenberger, so take your pick if you want to quibble.

    Ali didn't look so good against aggressive sluggers Frazier/Chuvalo. He was competitive against Frazier, but lost, and though he did pretty much shut out Chuvalo, he just couldn't keep Chuvalo off of him. We can't use Terrell as a reference to Tyson.

    Tucker and Thomas both had good jabs like Ali, and Tucker was a bigger version of Ali for the Tyson fight, using fast feet after trading with Tyson early in the fight. Tyson shut him out on the cards. Thomas was flat footed and used his jab differently than Ali and Spinks' style cannot be compared to Ali.

    It leads me to believe best to best Tyson would patiently cut the ring using his high guard and bob and weave style to negate much of Ali's jab and counter any mistakes of balance and defense that Ali was often left in.

    As the fight progresses and Tyson stays in his face, stepping inside with quick counters, Ali would would eventually tire from all that footwork and feel like the fight was slipping away and trade with Tyson. Bad move. After several KDs around the 8th or so, Ali would either fall on his sword, or hop back on the bike and try to gut out the fight. Knowing his fighting heart, I say he falls on his sword.

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Based upon what they have done versus like styles, and top opposition I dont even see this being a close fight at all. The only chance Tyson has would be to ko ali, who was hurt a couple of times during his career but his jaw was unquestionable as was his heart.

    I am not following how you can pick and choose fights a person shows their heart skills etc,,,and say simply that he had a lot of flaws previous to that so it is thrown out. I honestly am not trying to be difficult, I just am not following your logic. Ever fighter has flaws, I can see how this is a logical assessment on your part. 2ndly, Ali is a not a true boxer..Hmmmmm What would you call him them. Everyone has different styles, but Ali was a boxer all day long. He boxed boxed boxed, until he saw an opening to finish then he put punches together. He was not a slugger, brawler, body punch king,,,he was more a boxer than anything else. I do not follow your logic on that either.

    Many look at the Buster douglas fight as a fluke, and I too think that Tyson probably could beat him on a different day, but as I always like to believe styles make fights. The style, energy, heart, speed that Tyson saw from Buster that day, is a glimpse of Ali pre 1970. Remember the Ernie Terrell fight, Sony Liston 1 fight ( I do think this fight is relevent as you got to see not only Ali's speed, but his defense abiliyt, and his heart when he went out there in one round and could not even see). I see Ali taking Tyson apart easily after the 4th round at anytime in their careers. Tyson once his aggressive steam left him, that he possessed the 1st couple of rounds in his fights, would not be able to deal with the height, reach, jab, speed, jaw, mental taunts, and just all around greatness that Ali brought to the ring.

    Now when ali came back when he fought Frazier etc,,,he lost a lot of speed, he was more filled out that part of this was natural, but also part of this was him being away from boxing for a while. He also lost some timing. While the Ali that fought Frazier was good, I do not believe that this Ali, had the same abilities as the Ali that competed in the famous "Whats my name fight". Dundee commented that, the ali that fought that night was the best Ali ever was...Time,speed, power, mental..etc.... I agree.

    Tyson only chance would be a real chance, in the fact that ali caught left hooks his entire career. He was hurt several times, but in each situation he was able to get back up, and in most situations he would comeback and dominate his opponent. I dont think Tyson had the sustained ability as Frazier to keep fighting fiercly for a full fight, as he never showed it. I do read a lot into the Douglas fight, as when Douglas was on his toes, he was able to move back and away from Tyson when Tyson started rushing and lunging in, and thus minimized Tysons arsenal. He also kept a quick and consistent jab in his face followed up with Right hands..this is not something that Tyson ever had to deal with on a consistent basis. There were times earlier where a fighter had some brief success landing rights, but for some reason they stopped throwing them. Douglas was the first fighter that Tyson faced that throw quick meaningful combinations, and had movement. Ala young ali. I am not saying that Douglas could always produce this type of effort, but that night he did, and maybe tyson was not completel focuses, maybe he did stop using great head movement when his original trainer left him. These are very good observations, but I still believe that Ali would have been extremly successful versus Tyson based on what we have seen from them, and how they both have handled adversity.

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    As this has been done to death

    I'm not interested in all about this matchup.

    But I did want to touch on a coupl of things this trhead brought up:

    "Tucker and Thomas both had good jabs like Ali, and Tucker was a bigger version of Ali for the Tyson fight, using fast feet after trading with Tyson early in the fight. Tyson shut him out on the cards. Thomas was flat footed and used his jab differently than Ali.."

    Tony Tucker's biggest win is over a Buster Douglas who was handling him rather easily and then began losing his wind and quit. Tucker was not remotely impressive agianst him. So I'm not sure we can draw a whol lot from that fight other than Douglas lived up to his rep as a quitter.

    So what other win on Tucker's resume can we refer to to A-either use him as some sort of measuring stick for Ali or B-Use Tyson's victory over him as something we should take interest or note on? Eddie the Animal Lopez? A Jimmy young who had lost 4 in a row coming into his bout with Tucker? And two of those losses being to Pat Cuillo and Phil Brown?

    Fast Eddie Richardson twice? Smily Sutton? Broad Axe who had been exposed (I'm not sure if exposed is accurate as no one every really thought much of him other than his fattness) by Marvis Frazier and blown out in two by Witherspoon? How about two performances Post Tyson in whihc he lost twice to Orlin Norris (one official and one not-Horrid decision)?

    What is it on Tucker's resume or a performance of his that ANYONE can say: "wow, this guy was good. Real Good. And a comparison to Ali is in order and for Tyson to beat him? Wow that is impressive."

    I continually read where tyson fans point to Tony Tucker about this and that, but when I ask why Tucker and what is about him that makes him so formidible in their eyes, I'm always left wanting.

    Pinklon Thomas. A few things: The Tyson fight showed just how inept Rooney is as a trainer as he was giveing him HORRIBLE advice strategy during the fight. "you can jab with him" when it was obvious to all that Mike's pressure that he applied in the first round was the way to Fight THIS Thomas.

    What do I mean when I say "this" Thomas? Well, I never thought Thomas when he was at his best (I guess the Tillis fight was his best performance) was anything more than a good solid contender with a nice powerful jab. He looked average agianst Coetzee and his title winning performance agianst Witherspoon had more to do with Witherspoon's mind being every else but in Vegas. And Timmy's trying to blink his way to a dq win? Focus Timmy Focus.
    Weaver was far too heavy for Thomas, but for good protions of the bout, he actually out jabbed Thomas (Better jab than Holmes? Yikes!).

    And the Berbick loss. I don't exscuse Witherspoon for being distracted against Thomas, but it was a factor. Thomas, while more interested in his albumn, had his mind elsewhere, but that does NOT exscuse him losing to Berbick (I did call this upset btw). And even if one DOES exscuse that loss, how does one explain how Average and awful Thomas looked agiasnt Smiley Sutton, William Hosea and Franscico Maldanado? Has anyone here actually watched those performances? These are NOT good fighters folks. ANd Thomas looked....not good. Prep for a bout with a Prime Tyson? I'll give Mike Credit for taking Thomas out in brutal fashion. But he is NOT going to get credit with beating someone on could compare to Ali or Holmes. Maybe you could compare THAT Pinky, with a prime Thomas. But that's about the extent of it.

    The version of Thomas that Tyson beat and ANY version of Tony Tucker....Where's the beef?

    Hawk

  6. #6
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: As this has been done to death

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    I'm not interested in all about this matchup.

    But
    The version of Thomas that Tyson beat and ANY version of Tony Tucker....Where's the beef?

    Hawk
    Better watch out for mad cow disease.

    I just compared their best to best prime fights. I remember the Douglas fight, and it was highly competitive until Tucker's power finally cause Buster to quit. Buster had the talent, but was an up and down fighter.

    At any rate, Ali lost to Frazier, and where's the beef on Terrell, Chuvalo, and Mildenberger?

    I was at least trying to be objective in looking at each fighters best fights in their best years. All you want to do is nitpick one side of the ledger.

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    I asked about two fighters

    Thomas and Tucker.

    Douglas was dominating Tucker through the 7th and then slowed down. There are no specific or eye catching punches of Tuckers than anyone can point to that illustrates a momemtum change. it doesn't exist.

    And of course no one will discuss Thomas vs Maldanado, Hosea and Sutton.

    I'm not asking about Chuvalo etc. I'm concentrating on two fighters.

    Focus.

    Hawk

  8. #8
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: I asked about two fighters

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    Focus.

    Hawk
    What? No meat?

    Vegan or Vegetarian?

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    To equate Thomas or Tucker to Ali is absolutely laughable.

    Did they have half his speed of hand? Nope. How about half the ring movement of the young Ali? Nope. Boxing skill? They weren't bad technicians, but had nowhere near Ali's boxing ability.

    They were no way, shape, or form, comparable to Ali.

    Ali vs Tyson? Tyson wasn't fast enough to catch a young Ali. Oh, he had the "slugger's chance," to be sure. Henry Cooper knocked down Ali with a left hook, and Tyson had a great left (and a great right, for that matter), and Cooper wasn't in Tyson's league. Maybe Tyson could have landed a hard shot and put Ali on the canvas.

    But he wouldn't stay there. Liston, Foreman, Frazier... some great hitters went up against Ali, and they landed some shots, but not often enough or hard enough to end it. Two fights against Liston, three against Frazier, one against Foreman. You would think that, in six fights, three of the greatest sluggers in boxing history should have been able to get more than one knockdown, wouldn't you think? But they didn't. And shouldn't they have been able to do better than win one out of six? But they didn't.

    A Tyson in his prime would be standing at the end of 15 rounds. But so would Ali, with an 8-5-2 decision.

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    Focus

    IE stay with in the topic (or at least the spin off topic) and address the points rhather than trying to talk about OTHER fighters and ask "what about so and so"?

    Lean meat. Nothing fatty that will clog up the arteries.

    Hawk

  11. #11
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve McV
    To equate Thomas or Tucker to Ali is absolutely laughable.
    What ain't laughable is that I was comparing the 3 best fighters each fought when each was at his best. This is common methodology used by knowledgable boxing people in evaluating up coming match ups between two prime fighters.

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    I compare how they match against each other. I am not nolijible. Tyson's effectiveness waned post round 7 in prime, after prime, etc. PRIME Ali's/Clay's didn't unless he was being whacked by Joe Frazier. Best v Best: Ali wins. In prime: Ali/Clay more likely to show up and win.

    Asking him to gut a fight out (and WIN) when he never did that is a weird attribute to ascribe to him against any version of Ali. Ali had a better chin and more funky movement than anyone Tyson ever defeated, and Tyson repeatedly, in prime, followed one and only one game plan to initiate effectiveness. After that, if that didn't end the fight, Tyson in his prime, (which the old part line goes was for what, 2 years?) settled into a kind of fighting that he adopted exclusively when he was past his best. Punch, maul, no infighting, break). He won, he won widely..but he stopped and couldn't effect the destruction..he didn't keep chiseling away..he had rendered the other guy gun-shy..in self-preservation. Until someone kept trying.

    So I don't see how in a scenario when each is asked to show their stamina how Tyson is thone doing the effective stuff. Combine that Ali was brutally effective at clinching, holding, grabbing, and muting the other guy....I do not see how Tyson can be called the likely winner. Tyson instead of Frazier in 1971 loses to that Ali... and that is no knock on Tyson. I don't think he matches up well at all.

    People that like Tyson against Ali like to make Tyson a pressure fighter in the mold of Frazier..or merely better than Jones or Cooper or Chuvalo. Ali was so much better than ANYONE Tyson ever fought, while the same cannot be said of Tyson vis a vis the men Ali DEFEATED.

    Older Ali (1971 to 1977) beats Tyson because Tyson will short-circuit and Ali was not prone to being blasted out by one, or even an accumulation of shots. The master mover became the master-spoiler.

    Anything can be simplified to present the outcome one wants. Using the outcome that Ali faeds and Tyson wins is the least likely episode says me. And, what I try to do, is imagine each against each other, not either stepping in for someone else and improving on what they actually did against Ali or Tyson.

    Tyson doesn't get to face Ali istead of Chuvalo. Ali doesn't appear instead of Tucker much to Mike's surprise.

    Mike has an better shot atprime Larry Holmes than he does Clay/Ali. And I pick prime Holmes in that one as well. If Mike only had a plan B...he would have been what everyone wanted him to be.
    Last edited by Sharkey; 05-16-2006 at 10:29 AM.

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    The best heavyweight fighter I've ever witnessed was the pre lay-off Ali. The second best heavyweight fighter I've witnessed was the past lay-off Ali.

    Either version would handle Tyson......pre layoff Ali would beat him much the same way he did Liston; post-layoff Ali would probably tire him out and actually take Tyson out much as Buster Douglas did.

    Liston, Foreman and Tyson enjoyed a lot of successes psyching out opponents; Foreman and Liston couldn't do that to Ali, so how would Tyson? Tyson couldn't handle Buster's strategy of using his size or Buster's countering Tyson as he moved back out, and he definitely couldn't get around the jab after tiring.....what would Ali's jab do to Mike? Mike wouldn't be able to focus on the jab alone either, as Ali's right was typically extremely accurate, and while not exactly thunderous individually, the cumulative effects were indeed damaging.

    Either Ali takes him...10 rounds tops IMHO.

    On an only slightly related note...what exactly did Foreman do to merit an Ali rematch?

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Guys:

    Your forgetting something: Tyson is a weak minded fighter & person. Ali was a master of psychological warfare. He would have gotten so far inside Tyson's mind before the fight that Tyson would have lost the fight before the first bell rang.

    Tyson was no Joe Frazier who could overcome any mind games & give you his best. No way you can make that claim about Ol' Leg-Iron Mike.

    & Btw: Welcome to the board, Craig Panther!

    GorDoom

  15. #15
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Quote Originally Posted by GorDoom
    Tyson is a weak minded fighter & person. Ali was a master of psychological warfare. He would have gotten so far inside Tyson's mind before the fight that Tyson would have lost the fight before the first bell rang.

    Let's see, Tyson is criticized for fighters losing to him before stepping into the ring. Yet somehow this same phenomenon is an asset for Ali.

    Yet it was 37 fights into his career before anyone exposed Tyson. Ali was exposed as vulnerable before his 20th fight, so vulnerable that Liston jumped on the opportunity to beat up his sissy loud mouth.

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Roberto:

    As I've noted before it's obvious that you're an intelligent guy but sometimes your posts make absolutely no sense to me. I've never critisised Tyson for instilling so much fear in some fighters - Michael Spinks for example - that they lost before they entered the ring,

    Just like I have no complaints with how Ali messed up other fighters minds.

    But Ali was afraid of no one. Tyson is a walking mass of insecurites that he managed to somehow handle for a short period. But he IS a weak willed man.

    Just look at his life for God's sake!

    Ali is one of the strongest willed fighters ever who also could really fuck with a fighters mind. He would have had Tyson in such a rage but at the same time in a panic of self doubt that he wouldn't have been the same Tyson that roared through the 80's even if he had met Ali when he was in his absolute prime.

    Stylistically & mentally Ali would have had him in a frenzy of ineptitude.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    As I recall Ali called Tyson "Kong", as in King Kong. But it was understood that while Tyson was plain Kong, Ali was King.

    If Jelly Curl Tucker could dance around Tyson, so could Ali... only he'd know what to do next.

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Tyson had no effective plan B that could be employed against Ali. Ali however would/could do things when crisis arose..and employed them against excellent fighters.

    In a fantasy match of two guys at their very very best...it will not do for me to wonder about the 1000's of possibilities that might happen. Rather, what is likely to occur is what intrigues me.

    Tyson will dangerous, but I agree with GorDoom that he will have in his mind the very first time he is not able to control the action: doubt.

    Ali breaks him down, clutches and grabs when he has to, and Tyson's effective speed is dimished by Ali's tactics.

    Ali wins. Ali wins comfortably.

  19. #19
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Quote Originally Posted by GorDoom

    But Ali was afraid of no one. Tyson is a walking mass of insecurites that he managed to somehow handle for a short period. But he IS a weak willed man.

    Just look at his life for God's sake!
    Mental weakness of Tyson is a valid criticism, held him back from his potential and harmed his all time rating, but Tyson is also a walking mass of contradictions, and prime Tyson is one of the most dangerous fighters to have walked on this earth, especially when he had a professional corner and was properly trained.

    Ali was afraid of Liston. He admits to this. He used his fear to elevate his game from his previous near disasters, but look at his style. He was hands down against a much slower older fighter than young Tyson!

    As far as Tyson's life goes, how well would Ali have done if he suddenly lost his mother and father before the Olympic games and then lost Dundee when he was 22 yrs old? Circumstances dictate much of life's successes and failures, something Sam Langford or Gerald McClellan could understand.

    I'm saying it would be a tight, strategic, competitive fight to start off. I just don't think you can dismiss Tyson as easily as you do, and, of course, there's the rub. I pick Tyson!

  20. #20
    mike
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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    tysons mental strenght was qiute poor-when holyfield floored him with a body shot in the pirst fight--tyson was always crying to ref about something or other. a real fighter mentally gets back up and storms back even better. id bet on ali--but even then-not much-i doubt ali had the puch of buster d-ali should win--no real need for a rematch imo

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    I wouldn't go so far as to say Ali didn't have the punch to stop the guy. It'd be an accumulation that does the job afterall.

    What Ali was though was a top flight finisher. If your eye was busted up he got you out of there. And he was good at getting guys drunk--like say jimmy ellis--and then landing combos for the ref to step in for the tko. Plus, he did get ko's over some tough guys to stop; only guy to stop bonavena/only guy to stop foreman/stopped frazier/stopped lyle/even stopping liston twice/archie moore in 4/etc.

    Sometimes it'd be a perfect shot at the right time like foreman/lyle or bonavena. But when a guy was ready to go against Ali, they didn't slip thru the cracks. And he was the rare breed of heavyweight that gets late round stoppages. That's something not on mike tyson's dossier.

    As for the Ali/tyson matchup, Mike is going to have to absorb more and more as the bout goes on. And he doesn't have anywhere near the gastank of a muhammad ali. Nor can he absorb==if you could attach a meter to the guy it's so easy to track the degradation in the douglas/holyfield/lewis bouts. Hell, you can track him easy in the williams and mcbride fights even. The later the bout goes, the fewer the combos from tyson and the more straight up he becomes. And he does this stuff from the outside. He doesn't bend at the waist or bend at the knees with anything remotely close to the early rounds in his bouts.

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Tyson had poor in-fighting skills, could never switch gears if he got off his game plan, and generally (even in his so-called 'prime') became a looking for one punch stalker after the 3rd round. Part of what Ali so great was that he was EXCELLENT at switching gameplans mid-fight and turning a fight around. He had that ring intelligence. Look at Tyson-Tillis or Tyson-Douglas; once he was in the hole he didn't know what to do except to keep walking forward and eating jabs. That's the weakness of the D'Amato style-what do you once your opponent stops backing up and you aren't knocking him out?

    As for Tucker and Thomas, the latter got by with a strong jab and athleticism, but was a poor boxer with poor defense.Typical late starter to boxing. Tucker was a guy who did everything ok but nothing great, and I believe his fight with Tyson would've been a lot closer if he hadn't broken his right hand early in the bout. Either one didn't come close to approaching Ali as a fighter. On the contrary, I do see Ali opponents Frazier and Foreman as being superior to Tyson. Frazier, unlike Mike, got stronger as the bout progressed, always mixed up combinations to body and head, was always moving his head . .Mike moved his head side to side for defensive purposes (and once in a blue moon coming forward) but unlike many say was not a 'bob n'weave' fighter a la Dempsey and Frazier.

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Can any one name a hard fight that Tyson had won? I only know of one ko that Tyson has past the 8th round. Tyson never knew how to chop a fighter down like Frazier or Rocky did. In hard fights against Douglas or Holyfield Tyson folded like a lawn chair. In the 2nd Holyfield fight Tyson was landing his best shots. When Holyfield didn't fall Tyson looked for a way out. Tyson would look good in the early going then would start to fall apart like a cheap suit. Tyson was alway easy to tie up. No way could Tyson fight the pace That Ali and Frazier did in their first fight. By the 10th round on Tyson would either quit on his stool or start fouling hoping the ref would dq him. Many times in boxing speed and power have little to do with winning a fight. Heart and ring smarts are major factors in this sport. Which Ali was the king of both.

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    A well deserved Tip O' The Fedora to you, Mr. Big

    You nailed it. & anybody with any knowledge & common sense (they unfortunately don't always go together ...) would have to agree with you.

    Well said.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    IRON MIKE TYSON v MUHAMMAD ALI -- FIGHT OF THE CENTURY

    Gentlemen Seconds Out

    ROUND 1
    Ali suddenly doesn't look a man of poetry, predictions and his pre-fight ballyhoo. The unmarked clowning face becomes an expressionless mask as he pivots quickly to wheel away from the corner. He has clearly anticipated the bell and, as Tyson turns, Ali is not where Tyson expected him to be.
    Tyson is surprised. But raised eyebrows disappear behind glove leather as the squat figure moves in, elbows high.
    The purposeful march looks a clumsy plod as Ali side-steps, flicking two scoring right-hands.
    There are a few similar, minor skirmishes with Ali's light punching scoring but not hurting.
    Then, a change of pace lets Tyson slip inside Ali's guard, and a clattering right to the body from Tyson makes the crowd gasp. Ali doesn't shift. Not even his nostrils flare.

    ROUND TWO
    Tyson's strategy is clear.His confidence has grown since the early explosions, which left the likes of Trevor Berbick a devastated heap. Mauler Mike clearly feels he can exasperate Ali into a mistake.
    The clinches get more frequent, and each time Tyson's right is digging and probing Ali's ribs.
    Ali curiously seems happy to let Tyson dictate, although flea-flickers to Tyson's head might be impressing the judges. (But its hardly The Fight of the Century)

    ROUND THREE
    The atmosphere changes. The crowd is no longer silent and attentive.
    Ali's face is still set in an unsmiling frown of heavy concentration, unmoved even by the first catcall of the night (This is not what they had come to See)
    A starburst of action from a neutral corner astounds everybody, and brings the first real cheers of the night. Replays later show how a trapped Ali hit Tyson with 11 clean punches in just 5 seconds.
    In that time. Ali gets out of jail in the corner, hanging a bewildered and unbalanced Tyson on the ropes as the bell sounds to stop the action.

    ROUND FOUR
    Ali surges --- for half a pace --- then stops, leans back and waves Tyson on. (This will be some round the crowd sense)
    Then comes what the fans had been waiting for the Ali shuffle. Ali's feet flash, he is in reverse and Tyson is moving towards nothing. A flashing left clips the enraged Tyson on his ear.
    Now comes the theatre. Ali mimics Tyson -- crouching and plodding heavily with his hands covering his eyes.
    The crowd rises as one, as combination punches rattle 3 second drum rolls on Tyson's head.
    Any Tyson attempt at pinning Ali is futile, its easier to catch one of the arclight beams.
    Tyson suddenly looks an inexperienced kid -- out of his depth against the great man. But he's still there at the bell with only his pride damaged.

    ROUND FIVE
    The two meet over the advertising logo at the center of the ring. And Ali isn't shuffling.
    He has done it his way. Now he'll do it Tyson's way
    The round is perhaps one of the finest, most sustained piece of infighting ever witnessed. One passage of cleanly struck blows lasts a full 15 seconds before the inevitable clinch and call to break.
    Thudding punches from Tyson are taken on elbows, forearms and ribs. In the land of the slugger Marciano might have been King but Tyson is Emperor and he gives his all in an attempt to stop his tormentor. As the round ends both fighters receive a standing ovation from the Crowd.

    ROUND SIX
    Not a drop of blood has yet painted the canvas, Also Tyson his hopes rising after his previous effort seems to think he can maybe put paid to the Man who the fans regard as the best ever.
    Tyson with one thought in mind moves toward Ali. For a full minute both men do little more then stare as Ali slowly circles his Kingdom which this intruder has dared to enter.
    Later they would call it lucky. Others would call it perfect. Some would say it was an error by the man who took it --- Tyson plows forward from the ropes to the centre of the ring where Ail has danced.

    The gloves are still around Tyson's eyes, his huge neck and shoulder muscles bulge with the sweat of the toughest 16 minutes work he has ever done.
    The guard, the man, look invulnerable, impenetrable --- Ali awaits his monster with biceps flexing, feet twitching pawing at the ring. His left shoulder drops and Tyson swings his upper body to counter.
    Suddenly Ali swings his shoulder in the other direction. Tyson panics. lifts his head to watch the switch --- and reveals his stubbled chin.
    Ali's punch has since been measured at travelling less then 12 ins straight to the point of that chin.

    Someone hits the pause button
    The noise stops
    The Boxer's freeze
    Nothing moves. Until Tyson's knees start to bend. His enormous arms grope at Ali's shoulders. His eyes roll. The slump to the floor is slow, ungainly. But Ali doesn't hit him again. There is no need to --- The job is done. Even before the ref has reached the fatal 10 count The man who did everthing is screaming "I TOLD YOU -- I TOLD YOU"

    THE GREATEST IS STILL THE GREATEST
    Last edited by wildhawke11; 05-22-2006 at 08:03 AM.

  26. #26
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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Thank you Gordoom for those kind words. I'm 51 so I remember Ali and Tyson in their prime. One guy here compared Tucker to Ali. That's like saying my mother-in-law looks like Pam Anderson.

  27. #27
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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Quote Originally Posted by mrbig1
    Can any one name a hard fight that Tyson had won? I only know of one ko that Tyson has past the 8th round. Tyson never knew how to chop a fighter down like Frazier or Rocky did. In hard fights against Douglas or Holyfield Tyson folded like a lawn chair. In the 2nd Holyfield fight Tyson was landing his best shots. When Holyfield didn't fall Tyson looked for a way out. Tyson would look good in the early going then would start to fall apart like a cheap suit. Tyson was alway easy to tie up. No way could Tyson fight the pace That Ali and Frazier did in their first fight. By the 10th round on Tyson would either quit on his stool or start fouling hoping the ref would dq him. Many times in boxing speed and power have little to do with winning a fight. Heart and ring smarts are major factors in this sport. Which Ali was the king of both.
    I think the first Ruddock fight was pretty hard. The stoppage was controversial, but Ithink Tyson would have won eventually anyway. But I do agree that Ali wins, probably between rounds 10 and twelve.

  28. #28
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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Oh for God's sake guys!!! Here's a name that will end this foolishness once and for all:
    A PRIME George Foreman.

    If Ali could take round after round of punishment from Big George how could Tyson possibly hurt him?

    Not impressed? Here's another name that ought to bring the sense back to anyone silly enough to think Tyson could win:
    A PRIME Earnie Shavers.

    Keep in mind that Ali was in his prime when he was called Clay ...

  29. #29
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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    mr. big got it right-big time- so many fights are won mentally by endurance-etc--unless the opponent is outclassed.

  30. #30
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: Tyson (prime) vs Ali (prime)

    Quote Originally Posted by mrbig1
    Can any one name a hard fight that Tyson had won? .
    Can anyone name one controversial fight that Tyson won? I can think of over a half dozen controversial fights Ali won from pre to post prime. Moreover, Ali lost two tough fights at or near his prime. Maybe you ain't got the email yet, but Ali, like Tyson, is beatable. Thing is that Ali never dominated a period of time like Tyson did.

    At Ali's best, nobody was calling him the best ever. At Tyson's best, many if not most oldtimers were saying he was the best they had ever seen. Maybe it was some extra hype of modern media hungry for a champ after the dull Holmes reign, but the fans flocked to Tyson like no other fighter in his prime save possibly Dempsey.

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