Is Floyd Mayweather As Talented As Sugar Ray Leonard?

[Roberto Aqui]

For a Lightweight, PBF is absolute top notch.

Surely you jest. Floyd only has 2 LW bouts, winning a decision most thought he lost and winning the lackluster return bout. I could easily pick a dozen or more LW to beat him in a heartbeat.

Floyd is a talented multi divison fighter with decent career durability thus far, but I suspect his expiration date is almost due. I really don't know why anyone would compare him to Leonard. At Floyd's best he lacks Ray's excitement and charisma in the ring.

[pendleton23]

I hate Judha but please Mayweather had a hard time with him in the first five rounds.And if Judha could have stuck to his game plan of boxing Mayweather woud have had severe problems.
If you can't keep Pryor off of you you are done.And Pryor carries power in both hands.

[walshb]

Guys if Pryor was so damn good, how did Arguello nail him so damn much thru their fight. Don't tell me PBF isn't as fast, better defensively and cuter than Alexis. Pryor has a hell of a tougher time trying to land on PBF. PBF has amazing defense and footwork, the lack of which made Arguello so hittable...

Pryor will need to be a whole lot faster on hand and foot to nail PBF and Aaron's defense will see PBF score at will...over 12rds, it's a UD for PBF

[Roberto Aqui]

Pryor will need to be a whole lot faster on hand and foot to nail PBF and Aaron's defense will see PBF score at will...over 12rds, it's a UD for PBF

Now you've changed the criteria. I already picked over a dozen LW to beat Floyd. I'd pick a dozen Jr welts to beat him also and a dozen welts as well. Floyd has been on cruise control since leaving 130. When was the last time he challenged one of the top 5 fighters in his division?

[Steve Coughlin]

"Guys if Pryor was so damn good, how did Arguello nail him so damn much thru their fight."

Well, WalshB, maybe it's because Alexis Arguello is one of the greatest fighters in the history of the game. Trust me buddy, Alexis would nail Floyd just as easily ... and I doubt that Pretty Boy would remain upright without the help of Panama Lewis's "special bottle".

[TKO Tom]

If Alexis and Floyd fought at 130 - Arguello would knock him out.

[Monte Cox]

(A) Boxer is as good as the competition that they beat.

Not always. As a friend of mine once eloquently said, "Secretariat racing against plow horses would still be Secretariat."

Sometimes the competition isnt there.

However, yes I think Leonard easily defeats Mayweather and probably knocks him out. I think PBF tops out at 147 and it is not his best weight.

-M.

[doomeddisciple]

Is the question here one of would Floyd beat Leonard or a question about if his skill set is as impressive?

Leonard is too big and strong for Floyd. Arguably as fast if not faster that PBF, but when it comes down to purley looking at each fighters attributes you can't really take anything away from Floyd's skill set save maybe the weak hands. But then there's Leonards eye injuries.

For me the most obvious disparity is that Floyd doesn't seem to quite share the same competitive thirst that Leonard had - He's a little more cautious than Leonard and in that regard it was Leonards balls and championship heart that got him through his best and toughest fight with Hearns in the first encounter.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Floyd is devoid of that drive, but he's more aligned to Roy Jones in that area than Leonard.

Purely on skill - I think Floyd is every bit as Sugary as Leonard.

[hagler04]

Guys if Pryor was so damn good, how did Arguello nail him so damn much thru their fight. Don't tell me PBF isn't as fast, better defensively and cuter than Alexis. Pryor has a hell of a tougher time trying to land on PBF. PBF has amazing defense and footwork, the lack of which made Arguello so hittable...

Pryor will need to be a whole lot faster on hand and foot to nail PBF and Aaron's defense will see PBF score at will...over 12rds, it's a UD for PBF

Pryor is much faster and a harder hitter than Castillo, but the latter caught Floyd often in their fight, and in many eyes won their first bout. Castillo is a tough customer but Pryor is a league above-his pressure style overwhelms Floyd. This is a guy who was getting tired vs the pressure of Emannuel Augustus in their fight. Pryor is a whole different story.

BTW-Walsh, you always bring up the Arguello fight when speaking of Pryor's ability. Firstly, look at other Pryor fights-he fought guys fast and slick and he whupped them. 2ndly, you continualy under-rate Arguello. He was a monster puncher and while he did not have the fastest hands, his TIMING of shots was second to none. His ability to set up a bomb was unmatched-a true tactician of the ring. That's what made him so great, along with amazing stamina and heart.

[hawk5ins]

Bump

Hawk

[GorDoom]

In a word, NO. The one essential area where he really falls below Leonard is power. Ray was a vicious puncher. Floyd has no power. Ray could change the course of a fight with one punch - which he did many times.

GorDoom

[diggity]

Talent-wise they could be close but talents can only take you so far. PBF has yet to challenge himself beyond his talents as SRL did time & again. Boxing is about much more than just raw talent.

[walshb]

Floyd at peak is probably at Ray's best amateur level, and this is NOT meant as an insult. It's just that Ray was so very brilliant and Floyd is NOT in this league. Man I used to think Floyd was close to unbeatble and looking at my previous posts on this thread I had him beating Pryor. I think now after studying it more, Pryor gets the decision

[Kid Achilles]

Leonard had the more impressive raw attributes. He had both the quickness AND the punching power to compliment it. Leonard was just more complete and certainly more fun to watch IMO.

[apollack]

Hell No.

[timayres]

What I see in Leonard I have rarely seen in anyone else in boxing is a certain athletic ability- in that I mean perfectly proportioned and perfect balance and coordination (as opposed to just strength, chin, quickness, or freakish reach) that would allow him to do well in any sport.

I saw him play tennis one time on TV and his serve and backhand were sweet- I mean you can look horribly awkward in a sport like tennis just going out to hit the ball around, and he had that classic balance and coordination, totally fluid with great form, just like he did as a boxer. And I have no doubt he would be the same on the basketball court, football field, soccer field, baseball diamond, wherever, size notwithstanding. (We are talking talent here)

I'd have to see Floyd more- he seems less "talented" in that way, but gets the most out of his speed and timing, so far. His ego and will to win can't be questioned really, same as Ray. But I'd say Leonard had more pure athletic talent. And an understanding of what the audience wants.

It was always a joy to watch Ray box. I just can't say that about Floyd.

[mike 5150]

No. All great fighters have a certain intangible or two that make them stand out from all the others.

Floyd has one: speed. Without it he's nothing. Take that from Leonard and you still have a good fighter. Not the same but still good.

The guy had mental toughness and a punch. Both things Mayweather sorely lacks. Speed guys always get overrated.

[walshb]

What I see in Leonard I have rarely seen in anyone else in boxing is a certain athletic ability- in that I mean perfectly proportioned and perfect balance and coordination (as opposed to just strength, chin, quickness, or freakish reach) that would allow him to do well in any sport.

I saw him play tennis one time on TV and his serve and backhand were sweet- I mean you can look horribly awkward in a sport like tennis just going out to hit the ball around, and he had that classic balance and coordination, totally fluid with great form, just like he did as a boxer. And I have no doubt he would be the same on the basketball court, football field, soccer field, baseball diamond, wherever, size notwithstanding. (We are talking talent here)

I'd have to see Floyd more- he seems less "talented" in that way, but gets the most out of his speed and timing, so far. His ego and will to win can't be questioned really, same as Ray. But I'd say Leonard had more pure athletic talent. And an understanding of what the audience wants.

It was always a joy to watch Ray box. I just can't say that about Floyd.

He's the welterweight version of Clay/Ali, who is another example of a pure natural athlete

[gregbeyer]

he needs to beat mosley, hatton and cotto...then i will consider it
greg

[walshb]

At 30 I think he is past proving it. He was and will never be in Ray's league and beating Mosley, who is well past it and Hatton, who is no Duran, and Cotto, who is no Hearns, will prove nothing IMO...

But I still think they are three of the most anticipated fights of the last 20 years.

[wildhawke11]

The way i see it is Leonard had the opposition around to be able to prove he was an all time great. Mayweather unfortunately has not. I cant really put Cotto and Hatton in the same league as a Duran or Tommy Hearns

[wpink]

Floyd imo is more of what i call todays fighters...Made fighters. Meaning, many of them were brought up very young, looking at what Leoanrd did. They learned the tecnique, and the style to use speed, balance timing to help them pretty much be unbeateable to most fighters at a large part of their career. The question we are waiting on for Mayweather, that Roy rarely allowed us a glimpse at this issue, what will he do versus a great fighter at his peak with a style that will force him to use more than speed, or boxing. Where is will test his ability to simply Fight!! That is what i see is missing from the Taylors, Jones, Mosley's etc....Fight that is the name of the game...boxing is great but in the end where is your heart, courage at.

Look at Mayweather, Taylor, Sweat Pea, Jones....These fighters use speed timing, reflexes to their advantage just as Leonard did and they simply look amazing. In fact in Jones and mayweathers case you can make a case that pound per pound their speed and timing is just as good if not better than Rays. I think Roy was faster and Mayweather is just as fast pound per pound.

The issue is if he is as talented as Ray. I think Mayweather is more technical than ray. He has certain parts of his fight game that are better than Ray or at leat equal too. That is his counters, his right hand is sharper..Ray's sometimes is looping in nature, somewhat sloppy sometimes..Mayweather, at the lower weight was simply dominating, look at how he did Correles.. Mayweather's defense is better than Ray's. Sometimes ray caught right hands when I would make you cringe.

However, some of Ray's shortcomings is what made him great. His getting his with right hands, if you notice always..I mean always resulted in Ray's immediate responding with crisp hurtful counters. Even when Duran hit him, hurt him, Leonard in the 2nd round came on in the end with his own counters. Even when he was old and out of retirement, when Hearns had him down, he came back later in the round. So leonard's heart, courage, and that "thing" inside of him is something that Mayweather has not shown us "yet". A young Leonard would not have fought DLH as Mayweather did. However a yound Leonard did not move up 26 pounds either. A old Leonard did and gave us a closing which is style on highlight reals. Mayweather has not shown us this tenacity at closing out opponents since Gotti.

I would say that Mayweather is a bette technician, but Leonard is the better fighter. Leonard has great speed, good enough defense, better finisher, better warrior, more heart for what we see ( i think mayweather technical abilities, and defense has resulted in him not having to show this heart...is that a good think or not..up to you to decide).

I go with Ray, but what if Mayweather beats Hatten, then Cotto - mosley winner, then williams...all convinglcy....Hmmmm I think we will have a major debate on our hands then.

[Michael Frank]

Floyd is not in a hundred years as talented as Ray Leonard.

Also, Leonard's power and willingness to mix it up when necessary made him a VERY exciting fighter to the general public, not just to the boxing public. Floyd's safety-first/last/always attitude plus lack of power make his fights SO undramatic compared with Leonard's. He always talks big but wins without showing much balls, or power.

Also, I'll address one of my favorite criteria which some of you may feel is going back too far in time for either guy: Leonard won Olympic gold (by the way, vs. an incredibly tough Aldama who won gold 4 years later vs Mugabi, in Moscow). Leonard had maybe the toughest Olympic draw in history, with 6 fights in 2 weeks against usually top-tier opponents (generally it's 5 fights at most to gold). Floyd, conversely, failed to win gold when his turn came.

Leonard was a "once in a generation" fighter beating other once-in-a-generation types like Hearns and Duran--wow, what a generation! Floyd has beaten nobodies compared with Ray's opponents, avoided Tszyu, and has lots of titles but no great wins. His near-slapping style really makes me wonder who in the public at large would enjoy watching him. I don't.

[Husker]

Floyd at 130 looked very much like a guy who would someday compare favorably with Leonard. His annihilations of Hernandez, Manfredy and Corrales were great displays. Granted, it was not Benitez, Duran and Hearns but they were impressive performances none-the-less. The problem, in part is that Floyd moved up and up and up, his power dcreased with every rise in weight and along with it, his desire to engage when even remotely threatened waned.

I think he's fortunate to have fought DLH at 154 instead of say Winky Wright or even Kassim Ouma, neither of whom I believe lets him off the hook as Oscar did. (I'd mention Cory Spinks but I'd rather shave my testicles with a rusty cheese grater than watch Mayweather-Spinks). On paper, for such a relatively small-framed guy winning a title at 154 is almost eye-catching...unless your eyes actually caught it.

I despise Leonard, I really do but the fact is he is the best fighter I ever watched live. He's better than the Ali I got to see when it happened, better than Jones, Hagler, Ricardo Lopez...anyone else you care to name. He was talented in such a way that I think it's unfair to put even someone as gifted as Floyd in a discussion with him.

Floyd looked great at one time, for a brief time. Leonard proved repeatedly that he was and had talent to give away. Truly, what weakness did RCL have? He could've been better in some areas but weakness? None, imo.

I literally believe you could combine Floyd's gifts with the best traits of any other active fighter and the result that is spit out, the very best Ray would beat them.

[wpink]

Sometimes I find myself loving the warrior mentality of a Hearns, Hagler, leoanrd also and simply just love looking at their fights. However, if we are looking at who is the talented boxer (not best brawler, fighter) I think it is fai to consider that Leonard, hearns, Hagler got into brawls where they gave and took much to the delight of die hard fans, in many situations where the skills of a Mayweather forcing their opponent to miss all night long would have made it a much more techiical boring one sided fight.

Before anyone gets in ranting rage, you all know SRL is my favorite, and I take his performances vs duran, hearns, hagler and other fights vs lessor oppponents anytime over the fights Mayweather has. ANYTIME. However to be fair Mayweather as Husker noted is fighting at a weight class that is much highter than is orignal one. If you compare others performace at weight classes north, others such as Leonard, hearns, Duran etc...Their are some questionable performances (well Leonard was retired back and forth so it is hard to get a gage) and some losses. Mayweather was supremely dominant when he was at 130 fighting very good opposition at a early stage n his career and dominating them. I think better competition than Ray did at the same stage or amount of fights. Now true Mayweather did not have a Duran, Hagler or Hearns. but Correles was 33-0 with 28 ko's a very good fighter, and you saw the destruction that happened when he came to face Mayweather. Hmmm sort of like Hearns at welterweight, similar record and ko record.....Hmmmmm

The question is is Floyd as Talented as leoanrd, not as great. I think they do go hand in hand somewhat, but to go down as a all tiem great Leoanrd had a very luckky situtaion he had other all time greats to fight. Floyd has a coupdl of greats, but not the legends. Does that mean he is not at great, or as talented. IMO, the talent can be there wih out the all time greats such as a leonard beat. I think Mayweather is very very close when it comes to all around talent if you consider the art of boxing. Lets face it, he hits and doesnt get hit, he has speed, great power at 130 which if we are looking at ray we generally assume we are talking about his power at 147. It is not fair to judge Floyd on his power at 147 and 154 then judge ray at 147, not apples to apples. You look at his annilahation of many good foes. Many will bring up Castillo, I bring up Duran. Castillo is no duran. but Castillo didnt move up 2 weight classes to face Mayweather either, as Duran did Leonard.

I do believe it is a toss up between the too in talent with the tie breaker being Rays "shown" heart vs the legends the he faced. We have not seen this in Mayweather yet, and the DLH fight hmmmm was a dissapointment. However, Mayweather did win vs a very very good fighter, who yes was not at his peak, but he was at that stage in his career a solid jr middleweight. If you look at rays biggest jump it was vs lalond 21 pounds north. Yes it did result in a ko, but is Lalond a DLH??

Two great fighters, different styles somewhat. Mayweather more the techinician defensive fighter. Ray the warrior more so, who had tremendous speed and would close the show. Ray had the benefits of other legends to measure himself against. Mayweather had beaten everyone in front of him, rather easily, for the most part. Choose your poisen, you cant go wrong.

[walshb]

I think Ray is not only the better fighter but also the most talented. He beats Floyd in all areas IMO....Speed, power, balance, coordination, footwork, combo's combo speed, chin, heart......He was the complete fighter...Floyd is NOT

[wpink]

Walsh. This is funny. I never thought I would be arguing against my boy SRL. Actually I am not, as I agree that I think Ray is the more talented, but not by much at all. It is worthy of a debate and I could see those saying Mayweather is.

Let me ask you this. Is defense a Talent? Also, how can you say Leoanrd has a better chin. Mayweather has never been seriously hurt, Ray was by a Lightweight who moved up. Now obviously that was no ordinary Lightweight, but at least in the chin department it is equal until proven otherwise, would not you agree.

Are you judging Mayweather on him boxing ability at 147 or 130, cuz a 130l Mayweather IMO equals Ray in speed, balance and power, and coordination. He may not be as flashy but he was all that at 130. Now Combo's IMO is all Ray and heart and finally level of tip top competition. One other thing to think about. Ray at 147 did a lot more dancing vs fighters of today at their natural weight. I know that many do not remember Ray that came in and went for the jugler and call him a runner. I am not one of those. I know he many of times put the bicycle up and came in with a warrior mentality. However, if you look at Leonard vs Hearns and compare it Mayweather vs Correles you see that early on Ray did a lot more movement, where as Mayweather moved by elected to utilize counterpunching style more than the bike that Ray had. Now I am not saying Correles is Hearns, but he was a feared ko artist at that weight (28 kos in 33 fights). Instead of starting out dancing and utilizing footwork to stay away and also minimize your ability to land punches early on, in effect giving away rounds, which is what Ray did, Mayweather emplyed a more subtle style but more effective style of footwork, and thus it was not flashy but he moved enough to avoid getting hit, and moved in to land shots and out to avoid getting hit. That is more effective to me. So when your saying footwork, I beleive the Roy jones and Mayweather has just as effective footwork, but simply didnt employ it in the same way. They simply got the job done, and took less punishment. Again some or much of that was because theky were safety first fighters, Moreso Roy than a 130 pound Mayweather., but at the end of the day the won, won, won.

I have to say that Mayweather at 130 is close to if not equal in talent to Ray, and he simply is robbed of having a durna, hearns and Hagler to show it against. But beating his resume of fighters especially at a higher weight class is impressive. Ray for whatever reason did not have as many quality wins at the higher weight class and that shows diffeent skills and talents to win when your giving up size, weight and strenght. Floyd is doing this and not getting hurt. Ray ( I know was retired etc but what else to we have to go off of) got dropped repeatedly in his fights at 154 on up. Not that it was the peak ray, but we cant knock Mayweather or give Ray a nod when in fact he was dropped and Mayweather has not been.

Just my thoughts.

[timayres]

Floyd is not in a hundred years as talented as Ray Leonard.

Also, Leonard's power and willingness to mix it up when necessary made him a VERY exciting fighter to the general public, not just to the boxing public. Floyd's safety-first/last/always attitude plus lack of power make his fights SO undramatic compared with Leonard's. He always talks big but wins without showing much balls, or power.

Michael- this has always been my favorite part of Leonard- that he had the talent as we are discussing here to avoid and win while stinking out the joint, but almost never did it, realizing that people paid to see an event and he was going to give it to them. I miss that- understanding that people want to be entertained with an exciting fight.

I think De La Hoya, with his selection of opponents, understands that for sure. But not folks like Roy Jones or Floyd Mayweather- they are too busy "freezing the ball" and keeping their titles.

Which video collection do I take to a desert island- RJJ, FM, or SRL?
No contest!

[wildhawke11]

Michael- this has always been my favorite part of Leonard- that he had the talent as we are discussing here to avoid and win while stinking out the joint, but almost never did it, realizing that people paid to see an event and he was going to give it to them. I miss that- understanding that people want to be entertained with an exciting fight.

I think De La Hoya, with his selection of opponents, understands that for sure. But not folks like Roy Jones or Floyd Mayweather- they are too busy "freezing the ball" and keeping their titles.

Which video collection do I take to a desert island- RJJ, FM, or SRL?
No contest!

The funny thing is Jake LaMotto thought SRL was a runner. In Heavens name i was just wondering what he would think about Roy and Floyd. LaMotto said that he would never have beaten SRL because he would never have caught up with him. At the same he added "Robinson was better but i stood a chance against him because at least he came to fight"

In LaMotto's time Mayweather and Jones would been beaten up by the crowd who considered they had paid hard earned money to see a real fight not a fairy in the ring. How time changes and what we accept as fights today.

[wpink]

SRL videos for sure. That is not my arguement. My favorite is SRL, I take him vs anybody except for 154 Hearns. 160 roy, or Ray Robinson at any weight.

However I struggle to support the Leonard has more power at their natural weight theory. Mayweather before moving up was 26-0 19 ko's 0 losses. Leoanard before moving up was 32-1 w 23ko's 1 loss. After moving up Ray was 36-3-1 with 25 ko's. Mayweather is currently 38-0 with 24 ko's.... Much of mayweather recent career which I think is clogging most memory has been spent at the highter weight classes where he is not sitting on his punches or trying to stop the fighter. However, he is clearly using skills to beat them, clearly. Not a draw, not a loss, not getting dropped, but beating them.

I personally do not like Mayweather but like and dislike do not cloud my objective judgement. At 130 he is everybit as talented, hard hitting, and fast pound per pound as Ray leonard was, and he was show stopper against very good foes at an early stage in his career. His defense is much better than Rays, and his footwork while differnt is as effective. They both utilize angles to beat their opponents, while back at 130 Mayweather used combinations not at great as Rays but very good combinations. What has happened in the recent years has been he is heavier, fightint bigger opponents and has went into a safety 1st style which frustereate his fans and his opponents. However I am talking about the Mayweather at 130 vs the ray leonard at 147.

As for selecting opponents. That is flat out ridiculous. Mayweather is fighting very very good opponents. Fighing DlH at 154, judah at 147 then fighting baldimir after everyone cried about him ducking the champion and the man who deserved a chance. No he could have campaigned more at 140, but Why. He his taking more of a risk at 147 and 154. He is getting bigger paydays now since he very smartly fought the golden boy while it was still a relevant fight. NO he was not at his peak, but it was a relevant fight. He is now fighing Hatton. and he already has fought Castillo, Correles, Genero Hernandez (at a very early stage), Gotti.....Come on people. The guy is still only 31. Has he fought the quality Ray leonard has. NO... But to say he is 'freezing the ball"....come on. He has also issued challenge earlier to Mosley who avoided him....I believe Cotto's camp previously acknowledge as did Hatton's earlier that they were not ready for Mayweather at that time. Please get your facts straight!!!

Your opinion who is better is just as valid as mine, but can you all discuss or back up why Ray Leoanrd who agains is my favorite fighter of all time, is so much better at 147 than Mayweather was at 130. I frankly see it being very close with Mayweather getting the edge in defense, Leonard in combinations and heart and quality of opposition...Which gives it to Ray, but the way some are making it like Mayweather is a bum or something.