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Good point about LaMotta- SRL was a runner at times, but also a slugger at times, even a stalker, all depending. He could be a runner, but he could also be very very dangerous to himself in big fights by asserting himself to prove a point or create a momentum shift. I can't say that about RJJ or FM at all.Originally Posted by wildhawke11
Timayres...Did you see Floyds fights at 130. He stood and exchanged alot at that weight. He countered Correles to death, then dame right after him, dropping him something like 6 times.
All I am asking is look at Floyd at 130, and compare. He runs like a girl at 147 to 154 sure, I give you all that. He does win however, and IMO it is not a question if he won or not. However he is not taking it to fighters. But 130 look at what he did in such a early stage of his career. I really think it is forgotten, how he destroyed champions early.
You are right, the Diego fight was perhaps his most impressive. I guess since then I have lost that excitement for him, and overall I am looking at a career now and am not as impressed as I thought I might be at the time of that dominating win. He was on his way back then for sure.
But willingness to exchange and excitement is not the original debate I will admit, just got off on that tangent. I would have to put in the tape to be sure, but back to the talent question, I can't see many with the pure athletic ability and talent going in as Leonard in my time. But you make a good point.
2 things 2 consider. What if ray boxed duran in the 1st fight like did in the 2nd. Ray may been undefeated until norris & still had fights in his early career where he came after & destroyed fighters flat footed, but I bet w/ out the brawl in montreal there would be many that question his toughness. Even though he came from behind and beat hearns, there has always been detractors regarding that effort. Hearns had a weak chin, he was dehydrated or weakened before the fight, Leonard was lucky...etc. However it was in a losing effort where he went to war with Duran that forced many to agree that Ray was the real deal and a warrior too. Mayweather may just be too smart to let himself get into a situation like that, and his defense IMO minimizes the punishemnt he takes, thus the perception is he has less skills, when in fact his defensive skills are so good that maybe just maybe we are not giving him due credit for that. We want a war and a great fight soo bad that we may be simply disregarding the great work he is doing, and not getting punch drunk, or detached retinas, or knocked down, or out, or losses. He simply is winning with out getting hit. Now he has some work to do to go down in history as a Ray leonard, but his skills IMO are there.
2ndly..... the hagler fight as well as duran 2 Leonard pretty much fought the same style that many blast mayweather for.
Last edited by wpink; 09-09-2007 at 09:39 PM.
Pink,
Leonard rarely "ran" in his career, ever, until the Hagler fight. Mayweather seems to do it most every fight. Leonard's most memorable victories were his KOs/TKOs of guys who first put lumps on him, but he went into the teeth of the storm to score his own KOs (Hearns #1, Benitez, Kalule, Lalonde, Ranzany, plenty of others). Mayweather even at 130 didn't give you this drama or explosiveness, or cajones. He RUNS. As you note, Leonard was elevated by the way he fought his first LOSS, to Duran.
Count me in for the SRL videos on the island. Timayres, you're so right. Leonard knew what the fans wanted to see and it wasn't amateur style points victories, where if running and stinking out the place wins it, then that's what they do. Not Ray. Even as an amateur he entertained, and again, Non-boxing fans gravitated to him. Kevin Rooney, during the Lalonde fight I think when Ray got dropped, as an announcer commented, "I've got to say. I've never seen Leonard in a bad fight." Can you imaging ANYONE saying this about Mayweather? I'd venture to say that if Robinson fought like Mayweather, even if he got 5 more wins and 5 fewer losses, he wouldn't be remembered as fondly. Or ranked #1 lb for lb. Jones, etc. with the safety-first style may win effectively--and RJJ was great--but they don't put butts in the seats. If Babe Ruth hadn't come along, baseball might have died. His style, combined with talent, brought fans back after the 1919 scandal.
Leonard, like Tyson and Ali, drew in NON-boxing fans by the millions because of an exciting style, mostly his speed, talent, and yes, aggressive pursuit of the KO. His KOs weren't as brutal as Tyson's but they were often spectacular and more enjoyable to view.
BTW, no way did Leonard fight Duran II like a Mayweather bout. Leonard was AGGRESSIVE off of the movement, throwing blows all night; in every in-fighting exchange I recall from that fight, Duran initiated, yes, but Leonard always outpunched him and won the exchanges. Mayweather wouldn't/couldn't have fought Duran like that at any point in his career, at any weight. IMO.
For all Ray's obvious talents, the one that really comes to mind is his KILLER instinct. His finishig ability was second to none. When Ray hurt you, he closed the show. It's a rare talent among fighters and very few possessed it as great as Leonard....
So here's a question:
Who were the greatest finishers in the history of boxing??
My picks for greatest finishers all-time? Robinson, Louis and Dempsey come to mind. Foreman, too, just based on KO percentage. Leonard and Tyson belong there, also. The Hit Man of course, and Wilfredo Gomez. Bob Foster.
I can't argue with those Michael....
So I guess I'll try to pick the less obvious.
I have to say the G-man really impressed me with his finishing ability.
Extremely fast and constant hard accurate punching
Nigel Benn was a great destroyer too.
Eubank and Lights out Toney are two more. Lights out doing
a number on Littles when he knew he only had one rd to do it was special.
Azumah Nelson was another great finisher as well as Aaron Pryor....
Walshb, I like your list, too. Was going to mention Benn and Pryor on mine but didn't recall what kind of KO percentage Benn had, though I saw him KO quite a few fighters myself.
I wouldn't have thought of Toney, whom I nonetheless liked and found to be very skilled . . . the turnaround and slaughter of Nunn notwithstanding.
Let's not forget the awesome power and KOs of Julian Jackson.
Toney is, I will admit, less obvious and I rate him very high.
He is one of my favorites. He had allround skill and wasn't
noted so much for his power and finishing, which I thought
were grade A....Watch the Littles destruction to see what I mean
He took you out with one shot remember. He didn't have to go finishing you.
The G-man really did a number on him in both fights. Awesome finishing
No way in the world is Floyd as game or talented as Ray Leonard. Leonard had balls, could go to the trenches and prevail. Has Floyd has to go to the trenches? Not that I can remember. As far as Floyd fighting Pryor. Again, no way, because Pryor could not fall prey to Floyds juke & jive style the way others have. Pryor was to single minded fighter who fought with tunnel vision which would make Floyd crumble over the long run because the pressure would be to much for him. As much as I admire Mayweathers talent, he doesnt fight with much heat in his fire, where both Pryor and Leonard burned inside the ring.
Good insights....I agree that Leonard's killer instinct is what sets him apart, and his level of competition. However, again one flaw I see here is that many are slamming Mayweather.....I will quote from Tom Smario post "Leonard had balls, could go to the trenches and prevail. Has Floyd has to go to the trenches? Not that I can remember." Well what if...what if..Mayweather didnt go to the trenches simply because his defense and mechanics allow him towin a fit more comfortably than he would have had he not had the defense.
Please dont get me wrong. I am often ridiculed for my undying support of Ray, as some ( no names mentioned) always have negative stuff to say everytime I say something about ray. However, the Ray Leonard that foguth duran in New Orleans may have utilized a style to beat duran, but by no means was he dominant, or Not on his bicycle. He dd some inside uppercuts, and off the break, (Micheal franks my man, You are dead on in your anology, however I dont think there is a person alive who know more about Ray then I, we may be close though. Everything your posting zI already know and have said) he landed some nice jabs, and at the end of round 1 and especially round 8 before he quit, ray landed some hard right crosses. He was even setting down on his punches and landing hard shots in round 8.
Now this is the Ray Leonard at his normal weight,,,,I do not see that Mayweather has any fight on his record were at 130 he moved that much..He used movement but you all must have forgot how he was destroying fighters at 130. He boxed but he closed the show too at 130,,,ask Correles and others. I still think many of you are remembering the recent mayweather who is fighting at the higher weights. Not a fare comparison.
Oh yes Frank I know Ray was a killer earlier in his career. I have had to tell many of the you tube generation this. They only see the hearns, durans hagler fights...but i have to tell them if they saw andy price, or ranzany, or chavarini, etc...Geraldo they would know that versue fighters other than Duran, hearns, Hagler, Leonard showcased speed, combination...boy those combinations, powere..etc.... However, he never had the defense that Mayweather has, and to me that is a great factor to not overlook.
Pink,
It may be that Floyd hasn't had to reach down and fight in the trenches due either to his superior abilities (preventing a need to go in the trenches) or due to the overall lack of quality opposition he's had. Either way, he stinks up the building when I watch him, nearly every time. Whereas Leonard . . . never did this. Every fight was a masterpiece. And I know that you of all people acknowledge this, Pink. The one boring fight of Leonard's 30+ was against Rafael Rodriguez.
I'll even give you that Floyd has a better defense than Leonard--but even given this, I don't put them in the same LEAGUE. Floyd: lots of titles won against nobodies/has beens, in stinkouts. Ray: lots of titles won against great fighters, in great fights, exhibiting flair and drama, not running and preserving his face.
So maybe Floyd can't prove his greatness because there are no greats around for him to beat. But I'm afraid that if there were, he might beat them by running and showboating in a most boring, inglorious fashion. Completely unlike the way Leonard would.
How did Ray beat Duran or was beating Duran in New Orleans. How did Ray beat Hagler. Keep in mind I am believe I am the biggest Ray Fan of all time. However the truth is, Ray best fights, Benitez, Duran, Hagler, Hearns, Kalule.... 3 of them were at welterweight. Benitez was a great fighter but is he better than DLH or more of a challenge than Judah at 147? Correles when he fought Mayweather was 32-0 with 28 ko's many were calling him that weight divisions next tommy hearns....Mayweather whipped the floor with him, 6 knockdowns..Maybe he didnt have to dig down as much as Ray did, simply because he brought right at Correles and dominated him from the jump. I do not think Correles is a Hearns, but he was a very very good fighter especially for that weight class.
Duran moved up and beat leonard...MOVED UP AND BEAT RAY AT WELTERWEIGHHT. I personally think Ray won a very narrow decision, and fought the wrong fight, but the issue is Duran the smaller fighter moved up 12 pounds and brought it to Ray. Now what I always here is Mayweather had issues with Castillo. Remember Mayweather moved up to Castillo. The talk is about Mayweather running...Hmmm did Mayweather do anythng diffeent vs Castillo, than Ray did vs duran except play mind games? IN fact Leonard moved more than Mayweather did.
Leoanrd vs Lalond compare it to Mayweather vs DLH....Ray forced Laldond to move down...Mayweather moved up and gave DLH every single concession. Now Ray closed the show vs lalond, however are we calling Lalond as good as DLH? The weight differentioal from natural weight for Ray ws roughly 20 pounds...for Mayweather is was 24 poundss maybe 26...not exactly sure.
Leonard vs Hagler. Hagler is much better than anyoe that Mayweather ever fought. Agreed. How did Ray fight Hagler. Did he actually ( dont get caught up in the hype or drama of the fight) did Ray do anything different than Mayweather did vs Baldimir or DLH or Judah.... Ray didn't exactly bring the pain in that fight either.
So I believe we people are guilty of selective memory. We judge Mayweather selectivly only looking at his fights at the higher weight, but we place Ray up their and recall his great fights vs Duran, Hagler, Beneitz..hearns...but in fact many times they fought the same style. Mayweather at his natural weight is guilty of only not having the Hearns, Duran and Hagler to fight. I have always said that Leonard heart, and his quality of opposition is what sets him apart, not the skill level vs Mayweather as the truth is we simply do not want to admit that Mayweather is a bad man..He simply at the higher weights neutralized his opponents defensivly so that he is not hurt like hagler had Ray hurt, or dropped like Lalond had him. Yes ray was older and not the same. However, we cant knock Mayweather his beating very good fighters at a much higher weight. Ray never campaigned versus top fighters (young) at the higher weights, until Norris and got it handed to him..Yes IMO he got it handed to him because he was shot, but inside the ring, Ray did not campaign vs top fighters at a higher weight like Mayweather is fighting back to back to back.
Hi Pink,
Ray moved up substantially in weight to beat Hagler, Lalonde, and Kalule, all in high fashion.
I also think a Duran moving up and decisioning Ray, and Hearns giving Ray a tough fight, are LIGHT YEARS better fighters than Corrales or Castillo. Pink, my friend, I mean GALLAXIES apart. I also think Benitez was better than DLH. So I can't credit PBF's achievements anywhere close to Ray's.
All IMO only, of course.
I have concurred that Ray fought better competiton. Any one who knows me knows I believe he fought and beat the best competion since the the 70's. What I am saying is the manner in shich he beat these fighters Duran in New Orleans, and Hagler....Is the same style in Which Mayweather beat DLH and Baldimer.
Benitez IMO is not better than DLH, but two things to consider Benetiz was younger...but also consider DLH was campaigning at 154 for a while somewhat successfully and mayweather moved up to him...No request to ask DLH to move down to 147 etc.
Correles IMO is not a Hearns, but he is a very very very good fighter, or I should say he was. Castillo is no Duran. Agreed! I am simply saying Mayweather moved up to Castillo, Duran moved up 12 pounds to Leonard.
I think the name of the fighters is a major part of the equation, but other factors exist too, such as what weight they fought at, who moved up...etc. As much as I love Ray...I think that Duran at 135 in that style of fight they fought in Montreal probably stops Leoanrd had he had been at 135..Moving up takes some power away from your punches or how your opponents deal with your punches.
Notice I said "int that style". If ray had issues at 147 going toe to toe with duran then what would have happened at 135....However, I think ray could always box Duran and beat him. Now that being said,,,hmmm Ray had to box duran a lightweight who moved up to him. Mayweathr at his natural weight never ran like Leonard did at his natural wieght in Montreal. AGain Duran was a lightweight who moved up and Ray had to move.. Regardless of my feeling for Ray, he would not go toe to toe with Duran at his natural weight, he had ot box which is a great quality of Ray to have the abillity to do which is switch styles, but still the fact remeains we discredt Mayweather for boxing dancing,,etc when he fights bigger men,,,,,Ray did this vs a smaller man. Yes a legend, but still a smaller man!
Last edited by wpink; 09-18-2007 at 11:21 PM.
Pink, I agree with your points about PBF moving up to fight these guys.
As to another point you made, actually I guess I'm in the minority, but I think Leonard is a better pound for pound fighter than Duran, and beats him at any weight. Duran was not invincible at lightweight, and he was beaten there by DeJesus. Made to look not so great by others as well.
Leonard is better than all of them by far. I think Leonard would beat Duran at every weight they'd care to meet at, even lightweight if that were possible, save the one time in Montreal when Leonard a) was intimidated (no shame there) and b) fought the absolute wrong fight, not his usual fight at all.
Are you still a bigger Leonard fan than I?
Frank,
Wow...your good, but not that good...lol. If you review carefully what I am saying is that, the style that Leonard fought Duran, toe to toe based on how it took Ray 5 rounds to adjust to what Duran was bringing him, and he got shock and even hurt early on, I think that Duran would be even more of a force vs Leonard at a Lower weight because the impact of the blows that staggared Ray would/should/could be magnified if he was lighter. Now you take a Leonard that boxed Duran I believe he could beat Duran at anyweight class too in the boxing style. I for one saw this in the first fight when for the few rounds he elected to box and keep in the center of the ring, he was winning. So in essence we are saying the same thing about Ray.
Where we differ at, is that I hear time and time again how people discredit Mayweather for his style, which is much like Leonards vs Durann II and Hagler. I love Ray, but I point out that in order for Ray to beat a smaller fighter enough so that the judges agree (I personally had Ray winning the 1st fight and other times I have it a draw...I can not understand howDuran was given round 1 which if Given to Ray by all judges the fight is a draw, that is how close the fight was). Duran landed 0 shots to the head only body shots, Ray landed a nice upper cut on Durans first bum rush and then he spent duran along the ropes and through a nice combination. I am not sure if it landed as Duran's back was too the camera...However it was more than Duran did that round. BTW...in order for Ray to beat Duran enough so that the judges agree, he had to get on his bicyle...Hmmm mayweather at his natural wieght may have used great movement and defense but never that bicycle style ..he was there to bang...People forget this, just like many forget Ray vs Chavarini's, Ranzany's etc...they only remember the latest fights or the ones replayed on HBO. So again yes Ray had better compettion, but at their naturl weights, Mayweather had great great great skills. I guess it which flavor you choose. The fighter that has to dig deep and pull out a crowd pleasing heart drenching victory over good and great fighters. Or a fighter that utilizes his great defense to neutralize the offensive abilities of good to very good fighters and thus turn the fight into a onesided boring sparring session. I think many discredit Mayweather/Roy Jones because they simply had the skills to do this. Where I discredit Roy is he stopped taking on the best fighter after 94. I never knocked his skills, just he made a lot of mistakes but he was so fast no one could make him pay for itl. Hell Ray Leonard through wild right hands..looping a lot, (that cost him dearly vs Duran I), he also got hit by right hands (his brother even made note of the fact that he was a sucker for a right hand, which scared him for his brother vs Hearns). Mayweatether simply gets it done in a uncrowd pleasing manner at the higher weights. What about what he did to Correles, Judah, Gotti..how he tied off vs Baldimir many rounds .....How he came on down the stretch vs DLH rounds 8-12 with very good combo's....Give him his credit.
Duran's loss to De Jesus wasn't at lightweight, of course, since it was a non-title bout (and thus over the weight). It also was a damned close affair. After the first round knockdown, Roberto took a few minutes to adjust and shift into ravaging monster mode and came on like gangbusters. He was rapidly closing the points gap and (I think) would have KO'd Esteban had the event been a title match. Just like he did in their subsequent meetings. PeteLeo.
Anyone that doubts Mayweather fighting ability at his natural weight and even up to 135 and 140 just look at his fights back then. Manfredy...hell he moved up vs Ndou who has 31-1 with 30 kos...and went to to toe with him...look at that footage. Correles....6 knockdowns....Look at how he stayed in front of his opponents,,,and box and slugged with fighters back at that weight...very good fighters..with great records early very early in his career. Many have forgotten.
The only differnece between them two IMO is Leonard had durans, Hearns and Hagler to show his grit against. Three Legendary boxers...and Ray through rapid fire combinations alot more during the early stage of his career. Mayweather was every bit the offensive fighter Leonard was when he was at 130..He stayed in front of his opponents and exchanged as much if not even more. They both did, much more than people give either credit.
Mayweather is often criticised for his showing vs Castillo the first time. Well Ray had his showings vs Duran. The more I look at Mayweathers early career you have to give this man credit at 130-135,,,he was GREAT!!
The only 130-135 pounds I see giving him an issue (that I saw) is Duran. That IMO would have been a all time great fight. My suggestion is go back to You Tube type in Mayweather and look at his fights back then, and do the same with Leonard.....Their skills are almost identical, except Mayweather had more defense,,,,Leoanrd used movement a lot more,and Ray had Duran, Hearns and Hagler to fight which elevates his resume.
To my knowledge Floyd Mayweather Jr. has never fought any "very good fighters" during his career. EVERY athletically gifted fighter with confidence in their abilities LOOKS GREAT when they face less talented practitioners. This discrepancy in ability can often be further magnified when the less talented opponent also has a stylistic vulnerability to the superior fighter.
Actually my initial statement was not entirely accurate. Oscar De La Hoya WAS a very good fighter during his prime. Unfortunately, Mayweather fought a faded shell of the tremendous welterweight that De la Hoya was at his peak. This, of course, makes the laughably outlandish hype preceding their bout as well as Mayweather's equally unmemorable performance seem even less remarkable.
Floyd Mayweather Jr. is merely one of the MANY athletically gifted yet clearly inferior practitioners that have appeared since Sugar Ray Leonard's retirement in 1982. I only wish that he had stayed retired. His comebacks only served to tarnish his reputation.
Wow... notta one? I strongly disagree. Judah as flawed as he is in several areas, including mentally and ethically, is a very good boxer. Correles, Castillo, DLh as you mentioned. Bask at 130 he fought several very good fighters, Hernandez who was a solid champion. Now I am not going to say that any of these fighters are a Duran, Hagler or Hearns. Not at all, however those are some very good fighters that were champions, and one thing that you failed to include is that Mayweather is stepping up in weight classes vs these fighters. When Ray fought the heavier weights he knew to not fight the McCallums, Nunn's, etc as they were younger bigger fighters when he came back from retirment. Thus he fought Hagler then his fights were vs older fighters or Lalond. Mayweather fighing DLH at 154, and giving him every demand DLH wanted is very impressive, and even though DLH was not th DLH of young it still was an impressive victory.
Finally regarding Ray coming back from retirment. I agree with you. However I unlike many do not put a lot of value in the fights he had post retirment of post 87. The Leonard that fought vs Hagler gets lots of Kudos for his courage, and the skill he was able to still produce that night, but make no mistake, that was not a peak Leonard, and we never saw a peak loenard again. For those that forgot what he was able to do, and when was the last time,,,I say look at the Kevin Howard fight. It was a shell of Ray, but the angles he fought, the style in which he would walk down his fighter and exchange and pivot to get to the side of his fighter and put those combinations together...We never saw that again, never. Give Mayweather his due he is was soooo talented at 130, just did not have the big names to fight that Leonard did. However if Mayweather beats Hatton, then the winner of Mosley/Cotto, I think we have to start considering him a top pound per pound of all time fighter. I know many simply dont want to give Mayweather his due, simply because of his attitude. You can tell simply by those saying that he runs etc...however refuse to point out that at his natural weight class he didn't any more than Ray in fact, I think a little less.
Agreee, and that is what IMO seperates the two, however the debate here is "Is Floyd Mayweather as Talented as Sugar Ray Leonard" and IMO it is very close. When you factor is what your valid point we are talking aobut pound per pound rating which include quality of opposition and Ray wins by a Huge landslide, right now. There is still work to be done on Mayweathers resume however.
I have to with respect strongly disagree with your statement that Chris Eubank was a great finisher. I have seen maybe all of Eubanks fights that were on TV and was lucky enough to watch him fight from ringside several times as well.
Pre-Watson II, Eubank was an average (world class) finisher but after the second traumatic Watson fight Eubank became a very, very poor finisher. Many, many times he would have an opponent badly hurt (Malinga, Thompson etc) then he would step back and often do nothing untill the opponent had regained their composure. this is of course understandable due to Watsons injuries that effected Eubank in many ways.
As for Leonard & Mayweather Jr? Both multi-talented fighters with huge ego's who do, and may always split Boxing fans down the middle when they are talked about, for various reasons.
Myself I would lean towards Leonard to be the better fighter, as it has already been stated at length here, he was more versitile and a more 'complete' fighter who fought better fighters.
Mayweather was an outstanding fighter at 130 pounds. Prior to Eddie Futch's death Mayweather was highlighted as one of the active standout performers in Futch's mind along side Roy Jones Jr., Shane Mosley, Vernon Forrest and Erik Morales. The issue here centers around the fact that Mayweather has never fought another remarkably talented fighter during his career.
Zab Judah is talented fighter that can fairly be described as an underachiever. He ability is undeniable as he demonstrated in the first five rounds with Mayweather but he has gaping glaring holes in his boxing knowledge. Judah is a very flawed technician that relies almost exclusively on his reflexes to avoid punches and without his impressive athleticism he would be an ordinary fighter. Judah has also been defeated by Kostya Tszyu, Cory Spinks, Miguel Cotto and Carlos Baldomir. A past his prime Vernan Forrest was able to easily handle a very limited fighter such as Baldomir. If Judah is a "very good boxer" then is Forrest a great boxer?
The best of Mayweather's opponents, Castillo, was a terrific, rugged professional fighter. Because Castillo was really a dehydrated welterweight, pretending to be a lightweight most of his career, he outweighed Mayweather by almost by 10 pounds in both of their bouts when they entered the ring. While Mayweather deserves credit for making the necessary adjustments to defeat the bigger man rather easily in their rematch he was clearly defeated by him in their first encounter despite the ridicules decision of the official judges.
Hernandez was a skilled technician with several respectable wins but he was also defeated with only minor difficulty by De La Hoya before Oscar was even in his prime. Gil Clancy actually described Hernandez as only a "solid boxer" leading into his bout with Mayweather. I do not think he was that impressed with his fistic prowess.
Former World Welterweight Champion, Curtis Cokes, was a very good fighter. Welterweight contender and Kid Gavilan rival, Billy Graham, was a very, very good fighter. Shane Mosley during his prime was a tremendously gifted athlete and an unbelievably explosive fighter. They were truly outstanding professionals at their best. Clearly Diego Corrales, with his glaring flaws, Genaro Hernandez and Judah were not as talented or skillful as Curtis Cokes, Billy Graham or Shane Mosley. Corrales, Hernandez, Judah and Castillo were all good fighters but they were not exceptionally remarkable or standout performers.
Modern enthusiast simply cannot understand or simply refuse to accept how significantly greater the talent pool was in previous eras. If I told you that even an outstanding professional such as Marvin Hagler would have struggled to get ranked in the mid 1940's many would instantly rush to his defense and initiate an unwarranted attack upon my character. I want everyone to hear this. He would have had moderate difficulty getting ranked. Here are The Ring's ratings for the month in their September 1946 issue.
World Champion
Tony Zale
1 Jake LaMotta
2 Charley Burley
3 Rocky Graziano
4 Steve Belloise
5 Marcel Cerdan
6 Bert Lytell
7 Jimmy Edgar
8 Artie Levine
9 Holman Williams
10 Jose Basora
Quickly review the above ratings. Number ten ranked contender, Jose Basora, defeated Jake LaMotta and drew with Sugar Ray Robinson in a bout that the crowd vehemently expressed disapproval of the decision believing Basora had won. Artie Levine, before he dropped from contention, nearly knocked out Sugar Ray Robinson and gave him a spirited battle in which Robinson was described as having "several close calls" before Robinson won by knockout in the final round. Rocky Graziano is unfortunately often mislabeled as a crude bum today but he was one of the hardest hitting middleweights of his era. Steve Belloise was a tremendous fighter that scored a number of victories over notable opponents. Could you imagine that a great fighter such as Marcel Cerdan was only ranked number five in the world. Marcel Cerdan would have been favored by even objective observers to defeat Hagler. The great Charley Burley without question would have defeated Hagler as would the grossly underrated and forgotten Holman Williams. What makes this division even more remarkable in retrospect is that it was not considered an exceptionally talented division at the time.
This was not an isolated event. If you thoroughly research the fighters ranked at welterweight and light heavyweight during 1940's you will see that the sheer number of outstanding performers in each division is almost staggering. At welterweight Sugar Ray Robinson was world champion and outstanding fighters such as Billy Graham, Kid Gavilan and Bernard Docusen were all ranked contenders.
Modern enthusiast revisionist have at times attempted to propagated the myth that the light heavyweight division of the late 1970's and early 1980's was perhaps the strongest in its history. This is beyond just an exaggeration. It is a completely untrue statement. At light heavyweight during the 1940's Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall all competed. During the 1920's the division was perhaps even stronger. Truly great fighters such as Young Stribling, Tommy Loughran, Jack Delaney and Tommy Gibbons were all significant forces in the division during this period.
Boxing has changed considerably over the last several decades in many ways and the significant decline in the number of active participates has caused the number of truly exceptional fighters in each division to decline as well. When you claim a fighter is a "very good fighter" consider analyzing that idea from a historic perspective. Looking at it from that point of view I can fairly say that all of Mayweather's opponents were good fighters but would not have been genuinely significant forces in their respective divisions during previous periods in boxing. Perhaps my standards are too high or your standards are too low because the fighters that you are suggesting were "very good" would perhaps have hardly gotten noticed in a lightweight division with Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Ike Williams, Enrique Bolanos and Freddie Dawson.
And finally, the laughable idea that if Mayweather defeats Ricky Hatton and the winner of the bout between Mosley and Cotto that we will "have to start considering him a top pound per pound of all time fighter" is absurd. Ricky Hatton is the underdog. NO ONE thinks Hatton will defeat Mayweather except his delusional admirers. If Hatton does defeat Mayweather it will be a huge upset. Beating a fighter that almost everyone believes you would beat when the fight was signed proves very little. If Mosley defeats Cotto and Mayweather in turn defeats Mosley it again will not prove anything. EVERYONE knows Mosley is past his prime making a victory over him far less meaningful. If Cotto defeats Mosley and then Mayweather decisions Cotto it will again prove almost nothing. Cotto is not as talented or skillful as Mayweather. Unless he looked exceedingly spectacular he would not receive any more credit for this victory in that bout than he did for his win over Judah. After Mayweather's victory we will ask who had Cotto really fought coming into the bout. Many will point out that he beat the shell of the once outstanding fighter that was Shane Mosley and Zab Judah who, had previously lost to Cory Spinks and Carlos Baldomir, was entering his bout with Cotto after basically a 14 month layoff.
Until Floyd Mayweather meets another extremely talented fighter in the ring we will never truly know how talented he really is.
Last edited by lu047w; 03-07-2008 at 04:07 AM.
Luo47w - Very good and insighful post. Enjoyed reading it and had to really think regarding the content in it. I do disagree with some parts however. In your analogy, no matter what Mayweather or fighters of today do, they can not be an all time great, simply because of the reasons you posted. I disagree.
I have long thought that Roy Jones was the greatest Talent to hit boxing since Leonard or maybe even Ali, Robinson. He should not be slammed because of how much better he was than everyone he entered the ring against or because his instincts and style completely disarmed his opposition. What Roy Jones should be slammed for is because he did not fight everyone out there and clearly avoided some of the fighers during his era that would have posed serious challenges. I do not think we can say the same for Mayweather.
In your summary of Mayweather, you correctly point out the issues he had vs fightrs such as castillo. However, you leave out of your evaluation the fact that Mayweather moved up from 130, to fighter naturally bigger men, and easily (most of th etime beat them). I disagree with your analogy of the 1st castillo fight. Many people have Castillo winning because they never saw Mayweather ina fight like that, and automatically assume he won. I do not. Just like the 1st Duran - Leoanrd fight, since it was the 1st time people saw Ray fight in a war, with his back against the ropes (Geroldo fight was a little like this) many create this myth that Duran "whipped" leonard vs actually reviewing the actual fighting for what it was a great back and forth fight that Duran initially was "whipping Ray" then after round five it bacame a great back and foth fight. So BTW Mayweather, I believe that if you factor in he is a smaller fighter, did not carry his power up to 147-154 with him but is still beating very good fighters...then when compared to the success/failures of other fighters that made that climb, how can we not give Mayweather his just due. Duran lost a lot of fights when he moved up. Leonard fought infrequently (regardless of if he had to retire or not), He also beat hagler who IMO was pretty much in the same spot in his career as Hagler was. No he was not as sominat as Hagler, but leonard only moved up 13 pound, Mayweather moved up 24 pounds.
Mayweather simply is being penalized because many do not like him, or they hate his style. If you judge him on the fact that all he does is win, then IMO if he beats Hatton, and the winner of Cotto/Mosley...With a resume that would read undefeated 5 time champ beat Hernandez, Hatton, Judah, Cotto/Mosley, DLH, Badimir, Castillo, Correles, moved up up from lightweight to Jr middleweight to fight for titles with out any negotiated benefits...How could you not give this man his due.
I agree that there was great fighters and more frequent chances for fighters to be beaten than there is today. That has to weight heavily into the equation. However, I think that heart is one thing that seperates those fighters from today. However, heart alone does not win fights. Gotti had great heart, look at what happened to him. Etc..many fighters had heart. Lamotta vs Robinson...I think that Roy Jones, and Mayweather both are fighters that technically speaking were too good for there own time. They may not have shown the heart, but is is their fault that their instincts, style. ability to avoid getting hit, prevented them from many times having to dig down,,when my favorit fighter of all time etc...had to dig down because they simply did not possess the defense that a mayweather had. Digging down is a great quality, but if you prevent the need to dig down is that a negative thing.
Finally... who knows what style of fight would have existed had the leonard, mayweather, taylors, Jones, whitackers fought the greats you mentioned. Willie pep is legendary because he won fights and made people miss. I agree that the toe to toe legends are definately what we want to see. I agree that I get chills up my spine when I see Duran -Leoanard 1, when I see the fights that Robinson and lamatto fought. I agree that Leonard- Duran ii in comparison to the 1st fight was not as pleasing on the eye, or that Mayweather fighing a dull fight vs DlH is not what i paid my money to see. I agree that Roy Jones was way to cautios for me. However, what are we debating. Is it the skills to win a boxing match, or the grit to tough out a UFC event. Yes I want the heart, courage and determination of my favorite leonard, or the savagery of Tyson and Duran. I also appreciate seeing how easily a Roy Jones can beat a Toney, or how Mayweather completley disarms his opposition with his great defense. These are all styles, skills etc..that need to be fairly examined when discussing their overall skills, etc.
Now for pound per pound You have to go with Robinson, Ali, Duran, Leonard up there over Mayweather because pound per pound IMO embodies all of if, and factor in defenses, quality of opposition etc.. Mayweather does not have the qualty yet, but IMO if he beats Hatton, then Cotto/Mosley factored in with he may be undefeated, 5 titles..true titles...WBC... moved up from 130- 154 and beat a dlh...etc...beat undefeated champs....Mayweather gets a lot of love in my book. I hate him, but I respect that in fair review he will have to be considered heavily.
Last edited by wpink; 09-24-2007 at 08:37 AM.
What extremely talented fighters has Floyd Mayweather Jr. fought?
These are examples.
What extremely talented fighters has Sugar Ray Leonard fought?
-Roberto Duran, Wilfred Benitez and Thomas Hearns.
What extremely talented fighters has Kid Gavilan fought?
-Billy Graham, Ike Williams and Carman Basilio
What extremely talented fighters has Sugar Ray Robinson fought?
-Kid Gavilan, Jake LaMotta, Bernard Docusen, Fritzie Zivic
What extremely talented fighters has Carlos Ortiz fought?
-Flash Elorde, Duilio Loi
What extremely talented fighters has Beau Jack fought?
-Bob Montgomery, Fritzie Zivic
What extremely talented fighters has Ezzard Charles fought?
-Archie Moore, Charley Burley, Jimmy Bivins
I did not even list all of the outstanding fighters that some of these fighters fought.
Correles, Castillo, Dlh @ 154 is a huge accomplishment, judah is a good fighter
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