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Thread: Larry Holmes vs. Joe Frazier

  1. #1

    Larry Holmes vs. Joe Frazier

    Would Larry's piston-like jab keep Joe off him?

    I say Frazier's constant pressure would be too much, and when he got inside, and worked Holmes to the body, he would stop Larry in about 8 rounds.

  2. #2


    I could see Joe's pressure getting to Larry, but Larry's jab would have its moments, and I see him lasting the full distance to lose a close decison.

  3. #3

    "Black Cloud" Might Douse Joe's Smoking....

    Its one of those pairings which could go either way, and the balance may ultimatelty be tipped one way or other by as little as a dozen full blooded shots?? In the early rounds when fresh will larry find time to compose and execute, and catch Joe coming in with some heavy Flush Right Crosses which might hymatoma Joe up and allow Larry to Build a landing pad for his heavy Jab, and those Cruder but effective Clubbing Rights Larry Employs when he feels the time is right to terminate proceedings ??

    Or does This Prime Joe Suffocate Larry with his Extreme Pressure, Bobing Weaving and Jinking past Larrys Hurried Jabs, to Rip To body and Head in those Drilled Number sequences as Barked out by Yancey Durham 6-6-2 Body-Body-Head 6-2-2 Body-Head-Head….??
    Both men are will warriors who will exceed their normal physical tolerance levels, the will to impose upon, and the will not to be imposed upon, which barring cuts, will probably ensure both paties will have to battle through the exhaustion barriers that this deadlocked mentality will indeed impose on each other's bodies, but as to these tariffs, they instinctively would agree with themselves to recognise the pain the hurt the trauma later…perhaps the next day,,in a dark room with dark glasses….but during their match their desire will fuel their bodies beyond natural resourse…

    Larry would be Approx 211 -213lb with Joe Approx 207-209lb so no real advantage to Larry in that regard, and neither seems to me to be capable of taking out the other Early, unlike shavers or weaver Joe does not Plod Forward so Larry will not enjoy time to fully Compose and Execute and will have to move to Create his own Punching Room, and Larry whilst a highly capable mover, usually does it sprarodicly to break up the monotony, shake up some rthyme, and generally when he wishes to move, he much prefers to settle into a slide to side and counter regime, with lots of standing off and always at a distence to suit himself, But Joe will not play ball with this, he will be seeking to hussle, bussle and Tussle Larry off Kilter and launching from a moving platform is always harder then from anchoured foundations, where Ali moves through seer exhuberance and perhaps a desire to Look Pretty at all times, Larry is not adveres to winning ugly, so unlike a the rusty Ali, Larry will seek to gain Maximum Advantage for his output even if it does not look pretty,

    Neither can really afford to coast, if Joe stands off to any great degree he allows Larry Full Extension on his punches Joe must deny him that, but Larry will probably be forced, perhaps from the 5th to Negate Joe with clinches and perhaps some leaning on, perhaps whilst looking/hopeing for a Weaver Type uppercut, as a strategy whether imposed or not, it may indeed pay a benefit early in denying Joe the opportunity to create too early a damaging impression, however if you do not disrupt Joe drastically his Rhytmatic Pattern will be Set and Joe once Smoking will be Awfully Hard to dislodge or derail, the heart certainly leans towards this March 8th 71 Ripping, Snorting, Pressure-Hooker to introduce Holmes to a Dance the type of which he has Never encountered before…But the Head…The Head tells me that Joe does not achieve the Ref's Gentlemans Excuse me !

    Larry Has the Skill The Will the Adroitness, and Minimalist Approach to squardering energy, combined with his particular Bogey Punch Seeming to be the Right Cross, in Nature, a No-Go for Joe, that I can see an Early Rounds Larry Making those Few Impressive Early Connection which will sow the facial Hematoma and contusion seeds in Joe, which will germinate in the last Quarter, in between Joe will be on the Point of Disembolwing Larry with his inside work, and with Larry being repeatedly rattled when joe suddenly switches a hook to the head, but a wary Larry, unlike Ali, never Showboating, denies Joe the full force flush connection he is constantly searching for, as they enter the final 3 rounds they are pretty much level, and on the point of Exhaustion, Joe Snorting Still, but more to clear Blood hampering his Breathing, Hematomas and contusions seeming to cast shadows on his own face from the overhead ring lights, and Larry His blooded Mouth Agape, sweat pourind down his face, the whites of his eyes Visible every time Joe Now Bundles him to the ropes, they grunt in unison, Joe in the manical effort of giving, and Larry taking no pleasure in receiving, Its gone Primeval. Manila comes to Vagas,....

    But this time its not slow tired heavy veterans, - But Lean Mean Prime Fistic Machines - at least that’s how they started out, Come the 12th (?) we come to something of a Junction, one route leads to victory and one to defeat, and with both level on the cards, and with both now operating in that twilight world of numbed senses, and looking like extras from the Sam Remi stable, the outcame can now be decided by as little as five good punche either way,....

    I can see Larry Catching a slower to close Joe with heavy Right coming in, and A tremor in Joes Knees betraying him, which is a cue for Larry to extend his Left as a measuring Stick and Start Clubbing with the Right, Crude but Effective, Joe Sags Against the Ropes, Swaying like a Sick Sycamore in a Hurricane, the Ref Jumps in to wave it off just as Durhams white towel flutters in, Larry is lead off to his Corner Stool but is very grateful that l it is brought half way to him……Joe Spits blood and tells Durham "i wnat him Again"..…Wills and Skills were level ….But Larrys no waste policy paid dividends,,,and those Half Dozen or so balance tipping Punches…… .

    ( Ask me Tomorrow and i might lean Joe's way its probably that close...)

  4. #4
    Steve McV

    Re: Frazier vs. Holmes

    The boxer doesn't win this time.

    Holmes had skill, both on offense and defense. He had decent power. Great jab. Larry was a professional fighter who knew what he was doing in the ring.

    Frazier, no quote Mailer, "was the human equivalent of a war machine." Frazier didn't just test strength or skill; he tested your heart.

    Holmes had plenty of heart.

    So Holmes wins the first three rounds handily and then it becomes a war, both men giving and receiving a lot of punishment. From rounds four through ten, it's an even fight, Larry landing more punches but Joe's are harder.

    Larry's still ahead when Joe decks him in the 11th. The 12th is a matter of survival, two tough men hammering it out. Even round. Then comes unlucky 13... and Holmes hits the canvas, sent there by the mother of all left hooks, gets up because like Frazier he's got the heart of a champion, but can't make heads or tails out of what's happening, and the ref calls a halt.

    Frazier by TKO round 13. If Joe can't end it, you'd have one heck of a close decision.

    I'd pay a few hundred to see this one.

  5. #5

    Re: Frazier vs. Holmes

    "Smokin Joe" Fraziers constant pressure would wear Larry Holmes down and Larry would be ready to go after 10 rounds.
    Holme's jab and lateral movement would hold Frazier at bay for 7-8 rounds but eventually Frazier would cut the ring on Homes and severely punish Larry in the corners. To his credit Holmes didn't grab and hold like Ali did. It would be a classic until Frazier laid the killing left hook on him......

  6. #6

    Re: Frazier vs. Holmes

    It takes more then a slick jab and, in larry's words, 'crisp right hand' to keep Joe off for 15 rounds.

    Simply put, Frazier would wear out ANY boxer-puncher if you didn't have the BIG power to make him slightly worry and keep him from going full steam ahead.
    Foreman did, Liston did, Louis did

    Holmes, not a bad puncher, still doesn't have that firepower to keep Joe from taking that giant heart of his and ripping it to pieces.

    Frazier TKO 11

  7. #7

    Re: Frazier vs. Holmes

    Frazier, the Frazier who fought Ellis and Ali kos the Holmes who fought Norton and Cooney. Larry just wouldnt get the ball enough to win this one. Lots of body for Joe to tag too. Larrys jab would be no factor in this one. You cant just jab Frazier when he had his legs that early in his career. Ali fought a hell of a fight the first time and still lost and Holmes never was as good IMO as Ali was in that fight.

  8. #8
    Mr E

    Larry Holmes v. Joe Frazier

    IMO, Holmes was better than the 1970s version of Ali who beat Frazier 2-out-of-3. He was smarter than Frazier, took an even better punch, and, in my view, had better stamina. Holmes ALWAYS came on at the end of his fights; Frazier sometimes faded down the stretch as against Bonavena (rematch), Bugner, and Ali (fights 2 and 3, though not 1).

    Larry @ 214 (weight v. Cooney) would be giving up no strength at all to Joe @ 205 1/2 (weight in Superfight I). His big uppercut would have kept Joe honest and he would have won more rounds behind that piston jab than he lost. It would have been a HELL of a fight, but I like Holmes on points.

  9. #9

    Re: Larry Holmes v. Joe Frazier

    Frazier big.

    Frazier may have had some flat efforts here or there but guys like bonavena and a young bugner or muhammad ali are hardly guys that got ko'd a lot. holmes had some flat efforts himself against novice fighters in berbick,snipes,witherspoon,williams, smith. And I sure don't see a prime frazier struggling too much with those lorenzo zanon/evangelista/scott frank/lucien rodriguez/scott ledoux kinds of defenses.

    Holmes is a pitchers mound fighter from the word go. Opponents could reach holmes with punches and I don't think holmes absorbs to the body anywhere remotely as well as he did to the chin. Frazier's constant pressure-- a whole different ballgame than weaver or witherspoon or an old norton--and body work will eventually get holmes off that pitchers mound he loved. Then, it becomes a fight and Joe's smoking by the 9th round or so forces him to crack and and stops Larry.
    Holmes got by in a few fights by the smallest of margins when hurt but I don't like him against the top notch finishers and Joe knew how to finish a guy and not let him off the hook. And that body work just drains everything and it's not something you can shake off.

  10. #10


    I disagree completely with the assessment that Holmes's body wasn't as sturdy as his chin. Larry would often give up the body to his opponents so that he could take a little breather, and guys with exceptional power teed off on his body. When he let Spoon work his midsection it's painful to watch but Larry never really showed any affect to any body shots in his entire career. He ain't going to be worn down.

    I do agree this is a close call. Not because of styles, as stylewise I give this one to Larry pretty obviously. The reason I give Joe such a great chance here is Holmes's "little breathers". In virtually every fight he had he took a little time off in many rounds to have a bit of rest, where if he was under pressure he would just cover up and give the opponent his body. Joe is no fool and is going to make a lot of use of any moment that Larry does that. I give Joe a shot, but have to say Larry is the favorite; prime Joe's superior stamina and conditioning give him a late chance if he's been able to hurt Larry repeatedly inside and during his little rest periods.

  11. #11


    If the Frazier that fought Ali was there, he wins. However, that Frazier existed only for Ali. He was a bad man no matter what, but his best nights were fueled by an emotion that Holmes would be unlikely to unleash. That said, the Frazier who fought Ellis or Quarry would still be hell. Call it a helluva trilogy.

  12. #12
    Forum Flash

    Re: hmmm

    Holmes, by late round stoppage, though I wouldn't totally
    rule out an early KO. Frazier could be caught hard early and
    hurt. If that happened, Holmes was a great finisher. If not
    then I think Holmes' jab which was much harder than Ali's
    and nearly as fast, would have swollen Frazier's eyes shut
    much like in the "Thrilla In Manila" and the ref would have to
    stop the fight. Frazier wouldn't quit, no more than he did in
    Manila. He would die first. Holmes' chin was granite and though
    he may have gotten hurt a few times by the Frazier hook, he
    would have withstood it to win.

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