Chavez vs Arguello

[JLP 6]

Since I picked Tarver to beat Hopkins lets just say I suck at picking fight outcomes. Now then.

If Chavez the shorter fighter can slip most of Arguello inside punches and consistantly return fire he can win. Unfortunately for Chavez this is the only way he can win.

I don't know if Arguello can ten count Chavez but surely he can hurt him bad enough to get the ref involved. I don't think he will, but it is a option. Arguello also can stay outside and catch Chavez early when Julio is mapping thinks out. Alexis has that HOLY SH#T I'm hit power. One stagger and that is your you know what.

Chavez cannot beat Alexis from the outside. Since that is two options to one I pick Arguello on points or a very early surprise KO.

[walshb]

No way does Alexis KO JC. Chavez wears him down for a 14th rd TKO. Too relentless and Arguello's lack of ring smarts and footwork see JC unload all night. Cute fast fighters troubled JC. Stationery targets he ate up......

[Steve Coughlin]

"Arguello's lack of ring smarts..."

You've got to be shitting us, right?

[TKO11]

I was thinking the same thing Steve.

Also, Chavez didn't eat up stationery targets that were rifling sldgehammers right down the middle at your chin, or ones that hit him with everything they threw.

Full marks to Chavez for being a great fighter. But at Jr. Lightweight I'm all on Alex's side here. At 135 I'd say it's a tossup, but only because Chavez was so tough. But I'd still lean toward Alex getting enough respect out of JC early in the fight that he would relieve much of the pressure and win on points.

[walshb]

He was hardly a hard guy to tag now. The guy used his face as a defense. Pryor couldn't miss for 14 solid rds. His footwork was below average and he was not a speed merchant by any stretch. He had talents no doubt, very good puncher, stamina and good body puncher, but gainst JC, you need footwork and speed. He didn't have either to a level that would really troble JC. JC will not even have to stalk the guy, Arguello will be right there and I believe JC's better attacks will eventually wear Alexis down. Non stop relentless pressure.

[Olympic Auditorium]

Chavez by 7rd KO

[TKO11]

"Pryor couldn't miss for 14 solid rds."

I think you have Pryor confused with Arguello.

[JLP 6]

Walsh, the same can be said for Arguello. Arguello would have loved for a guy to stand and trade with him. Chavez had a great arsenel of power punches but Arguello's were tops. Each punch was hand picked for destruction with either hand at any distance. I still sit in awe when Alexis fires that left upper to Mancini's chest that paralyzes him then follows with a straight right that ends matters.

Chavez had good defense on the inside, but Arguello did not waste much, plus his punches has devastating power laced with them. In trench warfare they are equal but the power tilts it slightly toward Arguello.

It is hard to build moment against a fighter like Arguello if your a not much faster hand and foot than him. Chavez is tough, and will make it intersting, but Arguello is a cut above him in the skill and power department and not far behind him in every other catagory except for chin.

[walshb]

"Pryor couldn't miss for 14 solid rds."

I think you have Pryor confused with Arguello.

What fight were you watching. Arguello landed a hell of a lot, but was still taking a whole lot more....Nothing in Alexis' arsenal tells me that he could beat JC, except maybe by KO....But JC's chin was granite and his recovery skills were also top notch. JC has a guy that will trade with him, this is what JC thrived on and his head and body attack will wear Alexis down late.

[Steve Coughlin]

Arguello by BRUTAL KO inside 12 rounds.

I actually saw both guys fight at least 30 times each and can tell you that Argurello hit WAY harder than Chavez has ever faced and MUCH harder than Julio himself. If Jose Luis Ramierz, Edwin Rosario and Roger Mayweather could last 10 plus rounds, what makes you think that Arguello couldn't, seeing that he had superior power, a MUCH better jaw and was a much better defensive fighter than any of the guys I just listed? In fact, Ramierz was doing VERY well against Julio and Mayweather rocked Julio's world twice.

God help Chavez if Arguello landed cleanly on him.

BTW, if Panama Lewis had a lot to do with Arguello not KOing Pryor with his "special water, no the one I mixed..." Remember that part of the fight?

You think Chavez could come even close to beating Pryor at 140? He couldn't be De La Hoya at 140 and in fact got his head handed to him twice.

[apollack]

Agree to disagree. Steve, have you seen Ramirez v. Arguello? Ramirez dropped Arguello and deserved to win that fight.

Chavez by decision in a very fun fight.

[GanchoIzquierdo]

Steve,

You may well be right in picking Arguello over Chavez, but your reasoning is somewhat puzzling. Rosario? Mayweather? He tortured these poor guys. Ramirez? To be sure, this was one of Julio's least satisfying performances, but for pete's sake remember that this is the same guy who dropped and--in the view of a substantial portion of the boxing public--defeated Arguello.

De la Hoya? Come one. Chavez was ancient by then.

Gancho

[Steve Coughlin]

Adam & Gancho,

Yes I have seen Arguello vs. Ramierz as well as Chavez vs. Ramirez (in which Jose Luis was down only 2 points against a PRIME Chavez). I didn't think the Arguello - Ramirez decision was THAT bad, but it was a really close fight. Yet over 9 years later Ramirez, nearing the end of his career, was able to hang tough with JCC, who had yet to ruin Meldrick Taylor.

The reason I brought up Rosario & Mayweather is exactly that point, Gancho, Julio DID torture them, but they still lasted over 30 minutes each and NEITHER guy was the fighter that Alexis was. If THEY could last that long then Arguello would as well.

And Arguello was just as ancient when he fought Pryor as Chavez was when he fought Oscar. Arguello had been a pro for 15 years; Chavez 16 when he fought Oscar. And let's remember - Frankie Randall lit Julio up TWICE 2 years before Chavez even got to De La Hoya.

I ask again, who would you rather have your fighter fight at 140 - Aaron Pryor or Oscar De La Hoya? No disrespect to Oscar but, of the two, I'd avoid Pryor in that situation.

And in picking Arguello by brutal KO I'm not trying to dump on Chavez, who's one of my all-time favorites and one of the best the game's seen- I'm just saying how great a fighter Arguello was in my mind. If you could do that to Chavez then you're TRULY special. And it also doesn't mean that I don't think Julio could beat Alexis and maybe take him out just as brutally.

To me, this one comes down to a fight between to GREAT fighters that have a lot in common & equal ... one's a guy that smothers you and beats you down into a pile of rubble vs. a guy that can take your head clean off of your shoulders with a single shot at ANY time during the bout.

Still have to go with Arguello...

[apollack]

I still think Chavez had better defense and chin, and was physically stronger. No one ever gave Julio trouble unless they were fast or stick and move types, neither of which was Arguello. Of course, Alexis did well with guys who stood there with him, but he also got dropped a few times too and did not have the head movement that Julio had. His height would be a hindrance because that would be a lot of body for Julio, who broke down most of his better opponents.

Rosario, one of the hardest hitters in the division, who stopped Ramirez, was picked apart by Julio, who stood right in his face, and Edwin could not hit him.

I thought Chavez comfortably handled Ramirez and actually carried him. They were good friends, so Julio was actually doing the bare minimum to win.

Doesn't matter when you are shot, when it's over, it's over, and it comes at different times for everyone. Julio got rich and sloppy in his training habits. Even still, he is amongst the all timers in terms of successful title defenses.

But, you make a good argument Steve. One of those that would just have to happen for us to truly know.

[Steve Coughlin]

Adam, you’re a bit mixed up here buddy – it was Ramirez that stopped Rosario in four rounds back in ‘84. That fight took place three years prior to Edwin’s fight with Chavez. Rosairo did win a razor-thin decision from Jose Luis in ’83. As long as were talking about Rosario, let’s keep in mind that he needed a GIFT decision in his home town to win against Howard Davis, Jr,

There’s no arguing about Chavez having an excellent beard, but Alex’s wasn’t exactly shaky either. The times he did go down it was the result of a shot he usually didn’t see coming from guys who were known for their one-punch power – see Andy Ganigan.

Which leads me to my next point: when did Chavez fight anyone with the one-punch power of Arguello? Well, that’s not really a fair question because there are few fighters in the history of the sport that could put away elite fighters with a single shot like Alex could. Mayweather was a bomber to be sure, but if you take a cold, hard look at Chavez’ record I think you’ll agree that the only two “punchers” he fought during his great Championship run from ’85 – ’94 were Mayweather and Rosario. I can’t really pull another guy out of the rest that I would call a knock out artist. And in ’94, when he did fight another guy with real pop in Frankie Randall, he didn’t do to well.

Arguello had a title run that still amazes me. A full five years after winning his first title, against Rockin’ Rubin Olivares, he fought the following guys:
Bazooka Limon, Bobby Chacon, Rubin Castillo (47-0-0), Rolando Navarrete, Cornelius Boza-Edwards, Jose Luis Ramirez, Jim Watt, Boom Boom Mancini, Roberto Elizondo and Andy Ganigan. Chavez quality of opposition DOES NOT COME CLOSE to Arguello’s.

[apollack]

I stand corrected re Rosiario-Ramirez II, but that was still the Rosario who KO’d Edwin Viruet, defeated Frankie Randall, got robbed against Camacho, and KO’d Bramble, a guy who twice defeated Mancini, who gave Arguello a close fight of it before being stopped.

Chavez not fight punchers? KO6 Castillo – much more easily than Arguello, KO2 Mayweather, KO11 Rosario, KO7 Bazooka Limon, TD11 Ramirez. The guy didn't budge and never went down until he was shot.

1994 was 14 years into Chavez’s career and he had 91 pro bouts of mileage at that point. Arguello was 30 in 1982. In 83, he lost the second time to Pryor, getting beaten up and dropped multiple times. Chavez was 30 in 1992. In 1994, he lost a split decision to Randall.

[Steve Coughlin]

Edwain Rosairo was making a final stand against Julio. He got his head removed by Ramirez in their fight and was doing coke like Tony Montana by the time he fought Julio.

C'mon Adam, Castillo wasn't a KO artist, he was a boxer-puncher. BTW, you do remember that when Chavez fought Rubin that Castillo was at the end of his career and when Alexis fought Rubin he was 47 - 0.

And Limon was NEVER a KO artist either, He wore you down and stopped you.

Watch that Randall - Chavez fight from 94 and tell me that Randall didn't win clearly.

And was Randall the fighter Pryor was?

[Husker]

Bump.

If for no other reason than "Arguello's lack of ring smarts"

ROFLMFAO.

[hawk5ins]

This was sweet.

Apparently Alexis Arguello is SIMPLY a Ponderous, slow-footed punching bag, who lacks any amount of ring smarts.

Worth conversing with absolutely.

Hawk

[walshb]

This was sweet.

Apparently Alexis Arguello is SIMPLY a Ponderous, slow-footed punching bag, who lacks any amount of ring smarts.

Worth conversing with absolutely.

Hawk

I think I will replace the word ponderous with IMMOBILE...
It's probably a better description and looks a lot snazzier!!!

[hawk5ins]

Now we add that Floyd Mayweather was a HARDER puncher than Arguello.

"Was Alexis faster than PBF, did he hit harder, was he a better boxer or mover...I say NO to all...."

SO, we have Alexis Arguello, one of the most revered, respected and GREATEST all around fighters that the sport has ever seen reduced as such:

* Ponderous, slow-footed punching bag

[hawk5ins]

Now we add that Floyd Mayweather was a HARDER puncher than Arguello.

"Was Alexis faster than PBF, did he hit harder, was he a better boxer or mover...I say NO to all...."

SO, we have Alexis Arguello, one of the most revered, respected and GREATEST all around fighters that the sport has ever seen reduced as such:

* Ponderous, slow-footed punching bag.

* Lacking any amount of Ring Smarts.

* And an Inferior puncher to Floyd Mayweather.

What an outpouring of knowledge here.

Hawk

[walshb]

Now we add that Floyd Mayweather was a HARDER puncher than Arguello.

"Was Alexis faster than PBF, did he hit harder, was he a better boxer or mover...I say NO to all...."

SO, we have Alexis Arguello, one of the most revered, respected and GREATEST all around fighters that the sport has ever seen reduced as such:

* Ponderous, slow-footed punching bag

Lovin' your work Hawk!!!!!

[hawk5ins]

Now we add that Floyd Mayweather was a HARDER puncher than Arguello.

"Was Alexis faster than PBF, did he hit harder, was he a better boxer or mover...I say NO to all...."

SO, we have Alexis Arguello, one of the most revered, respected and GREATEST all around fighters that the sport has ever seen reduced as such:

* Ponderous, slow-footed punching bag.

* Lacking any amount of Ring Smarts.

* And an Inferior puncher to Floyd Mayweather.

What an outpouring of knowledge here.

Hawk

[walshb]

Now we add that Floyd Mayweather was a HARDER puncher than Arguello.

"Was Alexis faster than PBF, did he hit harder, was he a better boxer or mover...I say NO to all...."

SO, we have Alexis Arguello, one of the most revered, respected and GREATEST all around fighters that the sport has ever seen reduced as such:

* Ponderous, slow-footed punching bag.

* Lacking any amount of Ring Smarts.

* And an Inferior puncher to Floyd Mayweather.

What an outpouring of knowledge here.

Hawk

Still lovin' your work Hawk...

Keep it up, you're on a roll!!!!...

[hawk5ins]

For everyone to see.

Don't be sore. Not my words

Hawk

[walshb]

One more good post Hawk and you could get the KO...
C'mon now, don't let up

[Michael Frank]

As a guy who likes everything about Arguello, but also respects Chavez's record--no losses to ANY kind of style until what, his 96th fight (or thereabouts) . . . I'd still pick Chavez in this one, prime to prime. And I saw Alexis from 1974 on and always appreciated his immense talent plus power, plus class.

However, Angelo Dundee said he never say any fighter at any weight, EVER, take a punch like Julio. He never even showed lumps after any fight until the end of his career. Had desire like NOBODY. Again, in his prime, which was long.

I see Arguello not hurting Julio despite landing rockets, and Julio hurting Alexis with a non-stop, all-night attack, though any single punch of his is not as devastating as Alexis's. It might be a great fight due to Alexis's heart, might even go to a decision, but Julio was the naturally heavier guy who, in a different way from my man Don Curry, was nearly the perfect fighter. For years.

Alexis could be had in his prime (see V Fernandez, not a tough guy, a runner).

I'd be ROOTING for Alexis over Chavez, who soured me with his crying after the Randall fights and others, but my head says bet Chavez, who always won, and fairly big, until the end of his career, and always put loads of hurt on the other guy. No matter the opponent.

[hawk5ins]

Alex, In what would be a heck of a battle, is I see Arguello really taking it to Chavez's body. Julio did not like Taylor's inside work to the body. He would hate what Arguello would do.

Dundee did say apparently say to Larry Merchant, that Chavez was the toughest fighter he ever saw. He also was quoted as saying that Arguello had one of, if not the finest hook to the liver he'd ever seen.

Chavez showed vulnerabilites agianst a Strong as hell, tough sturdy puncher in Juan Laporte. Arguello would bring the pressure into Chavez. Julio is not going to break Arguello, because no one did.

Fernandez was able to out hustle a disinterested Arguello from a safe distance by boxing him. Chavez will never be at a safe distance becuase that is not how he fought. He's going to be right there trying to unload what is going to make him successful in order to try and beat Arguello.

Even Pryor at 140 mixed it up with Arguello and boxed him during thier bout in 82. Heck Olivares boxed Arguello during thier bout

Staying right inside Arguello's wheel house for 12 or 15 rounds as Chavez will have to do, I just think is going to spell disaster for him at some point during the bout.

Not a one sided affair by any stretch of the imagination, but my call is for Arguello to break Chavez down eventually, more likely than not, with Body shots and wins the bout via stoppage.

This is my call at 130. 135 it is tighter and I'd take Arguello via decision. And I will go in the minority and take Arguello at 140 as well. I think Chavez was very good at 140 and certainly among the 5 best ever at that weight, behind Pryor and Ross and on par with Benitez and Cervantes. I just think Arguello is always going to cause him problems becuase of Arguello's power, style, durability and determination added to the style that Chavez will need to fight if he hopes to be successful.

And that is right in range for Arguello and his power.

Hawk

[Michael Frank]

"Julio is not going to break Arguello, because no one did."

"I just think Arguello is always going to cause him problems becuase of Arguello's power, style, durability and determination added to the style that Chavez will need to fight if he hopes to be successful."

Hawk

Hawk,

I'd hope you're right, as I'd be rooting for Alex. But I think you're in error on a couple of points (obviously I thus agree with the rest).

One, that no one ever broke Arguello. I feel that Pryor did so twice. Had he fought Duran at lightweight, that would have been three.

Two, as to Alex's "style, durability, and determination." In reverse order, nobody was more determined than JC--I am quite sure, no boxer who ever lived was. The 12th round last-second TKO vs Taylor, while an unfortunate ref call, was no accident, but a brutal knockdown. The all-night whipping given Rosario was scary.

No one was more durable than JC, including Alexis. Alexis went down a couple of times in his prime that I recall, never JC. Only at the end.

Style? Alex's style was that he was a stalker--his power was feared, he walked forward. Led to the body then went upstairs, or shifted and led with jabs to the head. I never thought he was a "master boxer" as was often stated. A master boxer, according to Cus D'Amato, was someone who could stand in front of you, make you miss, then hit back without even moving his feet. That wasn't Alex. He was very standup, like the European amateurs, but he blocked blows very well and delivered lethal ones in return.

Concerning your Taylor bodywork comment, Taylor bothered Chavez to the body more than Alex would, I feel. He's much faster than Alex, though Arguello had the harder punches. Alex wouldn't land as many body blows due to less speed, indeed wouldn't throw as many as Taylor.

Methinks you are selling Chavez short in this one. Though I'd be behind Arguello all the way.

PS - A guy I'd favor over Alexis would have been a prime Meldrick Taylor. So fast, a great boxer, the two things that bothered Arguello. Maybe even a prime Camacho Senior, who'd avoid like hell any exchanges. Most anybody else loses to Alexis, which isn't just a hypothesis but what actually happened to an unusually high number of champions, ex-champs, and champs-to-be.