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I think if rocky connects on tommy he would not last long thereafter...BUT tommy is the better boxer.
could tommy's power gain rocky's respect and prevent him from crashing in and turning this fight into a brawl? because if he can't, i don't think tommy would win.
thoughts?
Could take Rocky out.
Rocky lands first? Sure he wins by Ko.
Tommy IMO brings moree to the table. Rocky is there to be hit. He CAN be hurt and he CAN be stopped. Tony Zale was well past his prime when he took out Rocky in 2 of 3.
I say Hearns within 3 rounds. Speed size, power, skills, etc, etc. SImilar stoppage to what Robby did. Big Shot exploding of of Graziano's mug and he can't continue or get up in time.
Side note: Look closely at the punch Rocky dropped Ray with. It missed Ray. The punch went around the back of Ray's head and Rocky pulled him down similar to how Roldan "knocked down" Hagler. Not that it made a bit of difference, but it shouldn't have been ruled a knockdown.
Hawk
I agree with your take, Hawk. Tommy just brought too much to the table. With his size, power & leverage he would have been too much for Rocky to handle.
GorDoom
I think rocky gets Hearns off that pitchers mound he loved to fight from. Once that happens, tommy's legs aren't going to be good enough to backpedal effectively against this guy. He'll throw a shot but be very vulnerable to the shots Graziano fires back immediately. That's the kind of style that's a big problem to Hearns; fire back immediately type opponents. Tommy likes those guys that hesitate or go into a shell and he cleans up and sure knows how to capitalize on his momentum. I just don't see Graziano cooperating with that very much.
Graziano could absorb punishment==far better than hearns==and might have to weather a storm or two. But hearns won't get hurt and slip thru the cracks against a finisher the way he did when hurt against the roldan's and kitchens. I think once Rocky hurts him bad, the fight is over within about a minute.
And more resiliant, I would have no issues taking Graziano.
Rocky can be hit and hurt. Often.
Unless he catches Hearns, with a sunday punch, I just think he's overwhelmed with speed and power. Speed and power that will reach him often, flush and with damaging results.
Hawk
Rocky had a big punch and it's very very slightly possible he could pull a Barkley on Hearns but I seriously doubt it at 154.I really think this was Tommy's best weight.Hearns early rounds KO.
Skill is still the name of the game. Hearns had tons of it. Rocky little or none.
Hearns chin gets knocked. But didn't Graziano actually get KOd as many times if not more in his career? Leonard had great speed and he had trouble getting to Hearns. So how would Graziano reach him? He wouldn't be able to get there as often as Leonard did early in the fight. I think this is important because I don't see this one going the distance. Hearns gets KOd in 2 minute. Come on. If that's true then Hagler should have KOd him in 20 seconds. Hearns to fast, to strong. Hearns overwhelms in 2.
Hearns had no chin and could be hit cause he was aggressive. Rocky would have stopped Hearns dead with very little trouble. Two different eras and Rocky was way to rough and had too much power to lose to a guy with no chin. Yes Zale stopped him, but Hearns was no Zale in any way. I saw both guys close up and watched both of their power in action close. There was no comparison. Zale was much much the stronger guy and thats what beat Rocky. Hearns to win has to run and box and he wont being that hes a warrior. Rocky in much the same way hagler stopped Hearns. Out cold.
No issues with your breakdown Rocky.
But Graziano is there to be hit and hurt and BOTH will happen. Often.
Zale in 1946, was Not Zale anymore. Not after 4 years off and at age 32.
Zale in his prime does to Rocky what he ACTUALLY did to him in the 3rd fight. Watch the fight agian and you see the onesidedness of that bleudgeoning by Tony. Zale did not need to absorb, endure and rally. He overwhelmed Rocky in a onesided fashion.
I say the same thing happens with Hearns. Hearns is a very fast starter and his speed is like nothing Graziano ever saw, save Robinson.
Rocky Could and has been mauled. Hearns does exactly that.
Hearns Very well could have been KO'd by Pipino Cuevas if Pipino ever got to him with any consistancy. I think the skill level of Graziano is very comparable to Cuevas. ANd I see the outcome being the same as well.
Hawk
No disrespect to Graziano, but he just is NOT polished enough or fast enough to compete with Hearns who was a vicious accurate and fast puncher with beautiful boxing skills. Graz is too rugged and lacks the speed to nail Tommy consecutively. Hearns had a better than average chin IMO.
I think Graz loses by early KO. Graziano's defence is not good enough to avoid Tommy's early assaults
Of course Tommy being a polished offensive fighter could ko anybody given the shot, but again he had no chin at all nor did he recoup very well. Rocky in shape, in his prime, rock hard, I think hed nail Tommy and take him out. Rocky is much stronger than Cuevas, Duran or Leonard and knew how to get out of the way of punches with guys he could maul. Totally agree that Zale would ko Rocky or Hearns (that would be ugly) in his prime. Also lets not forget that Rocky koed some pretty good welters and jr. middles (Marty Servo who Ray Robinson couldnt floor in twenty rounds). Lets just say it would be a shoot out between punchers and I pick Rocky cause Hearns wouldnt take his best shot....IMO
Did Hearns really have such a bad chin? I think NOT. It took a whopper from Barkley to do the trick and Leonard it was more fatigue as well as Hagler. Hearns had nothing in rd 3 V Hagler and Steward claimed it was because he received a leg massage just before the fight. He recovered very well V Leonard 2 and absorbed a lot of heavy punches. Graz won't be firing those sort of fast accurate shots will he?
Did Hearns really have such a bad chin? I think NOT. It took a whopper from Barkley to do the trick and Leonard it was more fatigue as well as Hagler. Hearns had nothing in rd 3 V Hagler and Steward claimed it was because he received a leg massage just before the fight. He recovered very well V Leonard 2 and absorbed a lot of heavy punches. Graz won't be firing those sort of fast accurate shots will he?
But at Zale showed in their 3rd go round, Graziano COULD be steamrolled.
His defense was far too non existant and his OWN chin was far too unreliable. Hearns at the top of his game at 154, had superior skills, speed and IMO equvilant power.
I just think he get's all over Rocky in a manner similar to what Zale did in the rubber match. Hearns IMO, won't be required to ride the storm. Like the Man of Steel did in their final bout, I think Tommy delivers a one sided storm on Graziano.
With Rocky's power, he's got a chance. I don't think he gets the chance.
Hawk
my only issue with picking hearns is the question of whether or not he has the physical strength to hold his ground when graz charges him. if graz has him backing up and gets him trapped i don't believe hearns will be able to get the necessary leverage on his shots to take graz out. graz was very hittable, he didn't take a shot particularly well, BUT in this matchup he is going to charge, and unless he gets coldcocked BADLY, IMO he will have tommy backing to the ropes.
does tommy play the boxer or the slugger? this my son is the question.
IF Rocky charges, Hearns can box out of harms way. Disrupt Rocky's timing with movement and a stiff, hard sharp jab and then lay down the right hand.
Rocky came after Zale in the only tape that exists of the 3 bouts, in the third bout and Zale returned and delivered fire on Graziano.
And Please let's remember, THIS WAS NOT A PRIME ZALE. The trilogy was as comeptitive as it was BECAUSE Zale was past his best, having his skills reode away due to a 4 year military service.
Hearns' at 154, and this is where this was suggested to have taken place as Rocky was never a big middleweight and he feasted on Welterweight for the vast majority of his Pre Zale victories anyhow.
I think it is JUST as important to try and understand how Rocky is going to react to Hearns' speed and power, just as it is the case with Tommy reacting to Graziano. And Hearns CAN adjust if he needs to. He has the tools and skillsets. There is no backup plan for Rocky.
He's going to do what he always does: Come forward and try to land a KO shot. IF he had a sturdy chin OR if he possessed a modicum of defensive skills, I'd give him a MUCH better shot.
He possesses NEITHER. Hearns, if necessary, can adjust and STILL land Cuevas/Duran shots on Rocky.
And I think he does.
Hawk
Hearns had poor body strength and no legs to handle the rush of a guy like Graziano. Thats the reason they kept him from Hamsho. Steward knew he couldnt beat Hamsho for that very reason. When he fought Leonard it was obvious that Ray was the puncher, for Hearns needs room and distance. Would he box or would he fight? I say he fights and he loses ugly. Steward can say all day long that he had the chin rubbed out of his legs but we close to Kronk all know the truth. Tommy had no chin. Zale did steam roll Rocky, but Hearns is no Zale in any way. I see that lots of guys say Rock had no chin. Nonsense. A ko to Tony Zale and Ray Robinson in shootouts is something a awful lot of middles would suffer. Rock had a good chin and was very strong in his body. Personally I dont think Tommy would have beaten Henry Hank and most guys on the scene who saw both here in the Motor City that are involved with boxing agree with me when I ask them that. Tommy came along at a good time when most of the best middles were ex welters. Up against real middles Tommys lack of legs and body strength would tell. This is a good match, but I still pick Rocky by a brutal ko.
Did Not have an exceptional chin and an even poorer defense.
Hearns' power IMO rivaled that of Robinson's and the VERSION of Zale that Rocky faced, IMO Tommy hit harder than.
Too Much of everything for Rocky to fend off. Wipe out imo. Rocky will need to adjust to Hearns becuase of his superior speed and skills, vs. the other way around.
Hearns avoided Hamsho?
Hmmmm. Let's take a look at that for a second from a timeline angle:
In 1981 Hearns was still a Welterweight and would be facing SRL in a huge matchup to unify the crown. After Hearns Lost, he moved up directly to 160 and defeated Ernie SIngletary in December of that year. Hamsho in turn was facing and being butchered by Hagler in October and was Unable to face ANYONE for the remainder of the year due to the stiches in his face.
1982, Hearns took out Geraldo in 1 round in February. Hamsho took on Curtis Parker in March. At this point, Hearns and Hagler were begining negotiations to possibly square off later in 1982. Problem was, Everyone needed to wait to see what Sugar Ray Leonard was doing, now that HE had to pull out of his bout with Roger Stafford due to an eye injury and was now contemplating retirement. Marvin defended agianst Caveman Lee in Mar as well and everyone was on "hold".
Leonard has surgery in June of 1982
Hamsho took on Gil Rosario in May of 1982 and Hearns decided to face Jeff McCracken in July while waiting on Hagler and Leonard.
Hagler and Hearns decide NOT to wait on Leonard any longer and sign to fight for a late 1982 fight. The bout is eventually called off becuase of either an injury to Hearns' finger or monetary disputes. Hearns and Hagler then have to shift their focuses. Hagler is forced to take on a mandatory in Obel (agian) and Hearns after his finger has healed, secures a title shot at Benitez at 154 in December. Hamsho meanwhile Upset Bobby Czyz in November of 82.
Ray announces his retirement in November of 82.
In 1983 Hearns only fought once (Murray Sutherland) becuase he broke his wrist agianst Benitez. That was July. THe same month Hamsho faced Benitez.
in 1984 Hearns returns after a layoff to defend agianst Minchillo, he destroys Duran and then a tuneup late year defense agianst Hutchings in preparation for Hagler in April of 85. Hagler destroys Hamsho in 3 in Oct of 84.
When was Hearns Hamsho supposed to have taken place and where was it Manny was supposed have avoided Hamsho?
Tommy Hearns is NOT Tony Zale. But Tommy Hearns was better than the Zale that Graziano faced. Becuase THAT wasn't Tony Zale either.
Hawk
I think the version of Zale that Rocky fought would have beaten any Tommy Hearns there ever was. Hamsho? He was #1 contender and beat everyone out there except for Hagler. Tommy wanted Hagler for a long time but he never asked for a shot at the #1 contender to EARN the shot. He beat Duran to get the shot. They wanted no part of earning the shot by fighting Hamsho. They waited for him to get beaten by Hagler again. Bad matchup for Hearns cause hes not gonna ko Mustapha and doesnt have the body strength to deal with him effectivly. Contrary to what people think, Tommy didnt hit that hard for pure power. Pipino Cuevas hit much harder. But Tommy had the reach and its the ones that you dont see that hurt. He could nail you from affar. Lets also not forget that Rocky Graziano beat alot of good fighters from sluggers to boxers. We just dont get to see the guy in his prime in color like we see Tommy. In his prime he was very strong and hit very hard.
So now Hearns Ducked Hamsho and decided to take on Duran instead?
Is THAT what is being intimated here?
Holy Crap. Now THAT is some revisionist history.
I have no idea how to respond.
Cuevas hit harder than Hearns?
Could be. Steward beleives Mickey Goodwin hit harder than Hearns as well, because Tommy's power was generated from Speed and leverage.
But imo, that's like discounting the power of Mike Tyson becuase his power was speed based as opposed to Foreman's power whihc was strength based.
The ability to deliver a KO is undeniable for both.
Hearns had a great Ability to KO his opponent. Hows that?
Graziano NEVER beat anyone with Hearns' talent.
And IMO that includes the version of Zale he beat. Whihc as I've already said, Was NOT in any way shape or form a prime Zale.
Hawk
Hearns by brutal and quick KO. Watching Zale v. Graziano III, I can barely believe Rocky got lucky enough to even win one of those bouts against Zale.
Goodwin did hit harder than Hearns, so probably did Rocky.
I just saw that....Somebody here thinks that the version of Tony Zale who got beaten by Rocky Graziano wouldnt have beaten Tommy Hearns? Somebody thinks that Rocky wouldnt take a beating and come back and wasnt stronger in that reguard than Tommy Hearns? Tony Janiro, Harold Green, Tony Zale, Gene Burton, Charlie Fusari, Marty Servo, Vince Cidone, and others dont rank with the victims of Tommy Hearns? I gotta question that. Ya gotta have a chin to beat ANY version of Tony Zale.
Goodwin never hit harder than Hearns---unless he was dreaming
Hearns had a good chin or he would not have lasted 14 against Leonard--Hearns opponents were better than all of those above( Benitez, leonard, Cuevas,Duran, Hagler,Hill, etc his opponents would have beat all of those guys Hearns had the misfortune of coming around in a great era---Hagler and Leonards) Zale was ko'd by Frank Glover (9) Johnny Phagen (6) Jimmy Clark (1) Al Hostak 1st fight (13), Lost 10 to Billy Soose , etc etc Zale and Graziano were overated Hearns beats both of them too fast too tall and as much heart as either of them
Zale is being over looked here greatly.
Many of those early losses were due to the fact he was a part time fighter, spending more time in the steel mills than the boxing ring.
When Zale finally got a full time trainer and a solid management team, you saw the great, championship fighter that he was.
THAT Zale breaks down Tommy at 160 and stops him.
THAT ZALE, did NOT face Graziano.
Graziano, as a middleweight scored some nice wins over past their peaks middlweights and wleterweight and blown up lightwieghts. He made a career on it.
A win over former Welterweight champ may look nice on Graziano's resume, but Rocky was a middleweight fighting a Wleterweight, who like Zale, had taken 3 plus years off to serve.
I'll stack Hearns's comp with Rocky's any day personally.
I don;t doubt Rocky's power. But in Hearns he's NOT going to be facing a faded, stale and or smallish fighter.
TO ME, it's going to be more about what Rocky is going to take early from Hearns. I don't think he can take it.
Hawk
But the main thing he'd do is to get Tommy off that pitchers mound. If you let Hearns set up and dictate he looks terrific. But the guys that press him immediately > punching presents a ton of problems. Even guys like Kitchen and Singletary did it. Let alone Roldan and Barkley and Hagler. Rocky is not going to sit back and wait for his openings the way a Virgil Hill or Hutchings or Dewitt did. He's the rare breed that takes a shot and fires back. And Tommy poses > he punches & has those hands low and is right there to get hit clean. With Hearns, it's a style matchup and a passive guy is going to get eaten up. The mike mcallum type guys are always going to be tough stylewise for Hearns and it's a matter of how much Hearns can absorb or if he can avoid getting hit on the button.
And I think Graziano is going to catch Hearns & is too good a finisher to let him slip thru the cracks.
Graziano is not a mike mccallum guy(who was not a pressure guy either).
He's more like Gratien Tonna or Roldan, though i did not see that level of aggression and constant pressure in him.He was not a swarming dynamo that would knock Hearns off-kilter, at least in the early stages.
I don't see him pressuring Hearns early on.More likely he'll stand in front of Tommy at ring-centre and look to trade and land the big looping right hand.Maybe some slow walking forward, if Hearns elects to move a bit and feel him out.
did a Comparison between Rocky Graziano and Mike McCallum ever come about?
Mooch is too polite here.
Either someone has never seen Graziano fight or they haven't seen MCCallum fight. I'm going out on a limb and say that it's both.
What the........?
Hawk
Goodwin had a more powerful punch than Tommy Hearns. That dont make him a more effective banger than Tommy. Graziano also hit harder I believe than Tommy, but Rocky KNEW how to fight and how to finish a guy. Again Tommy had no chin. Ray Leonard stalked the guy all nite and Tommy went backwards to try to steal it, but I knew Ray would nail him. Rocky would ko him ugly...............
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