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I can't hazard a guess, as these guys are very similar in some respects. Both were somewhat unathletic but hard-charging pressure fighters with a great work ethic, a win-at-all-cost mentality, and a bread-and-butter punch (the straight right for Rocky and, conversely, the left hook for Frazier).
Would the size differential give Joe the advantage?
I do not think that Joe's 20lb advantage would do him any harm whatsoever !
If they were both the same weight, then I would go for Rocky, but for me Joe is a hard enough guy to stand and Trade with if you are of Equal Size/ Weight dimension's , but spot Joe a 20lb Pull in weight, and he will be a big puncher in there…and if your your style is to Trade……
You might feel that Rocky is a Heavy Density 185 and Joe carries some of his advantage in weight below the belt, contained in large thighs, but these are his drivers and anchors providing leverage for his hook, this does not mean he is weak upper body. Like a golf swing power transmits all the way through,
this advantage should not be ignored or dismissed these are two Forward Gear Fighters, nobody's going to be up on their toes retreating behind the Jab, this would be Head to Head - Chest to Chest, each trying to force the other onto their back foot, as I said, hard enough when equal, But in my humble opinion Joes Extra 20lbs would serve him very well indeed.
Rocky is "Two-Fisted" But we might find that when the currency is exchanged a Rocky Left and Right has no greater Value then Two cultured Lefts From Frazier, ? My general inclination is for A Frazier cuts stoppage Victory, perhaps around the 9th,
Bonavena Apart (against a Younger Joe) Joe did tend to punish Fighers who tried to stand and trade with him, beit Chavalo with a broken cheekbone, Quarry and Later Stander who both got the Frazier Face-pack treatment, Frazier had an unappreciated punch inside, Like a little 6"-9" "Jolt Jab" which used to lift the head for the Hook, Now I am no way comparing the talent of Rocky with that of George, Jerry, or Ron, and certainly no denigration of Rocky's Will, Desire and durability, but Rocky was human, flesh and blood, and whilst I believe Rocky's will would not be broken, with a prime Joe Frazier pounding on you - with a 20lb weight advantage, the flesh might not be so resolute and may respond in accordance to natures laws, to the pounding it would take, ….Heads my also bump and Grind, with two trucks called Frazier and Marciano colliding I have to belive that the bigger truck is going to cause some serious damage to the Headlamps Grill and Fenders so to speak..
Marciano did conquer all, but his durability would not be being put to the test by a crafty Walcott or slightly past it Charles, or Punchbag Cockell or Ancient Archie ect, But the Ripping Snorting Constant Pressure Hooking Joe Frazier of March 8th 1971 - with a 20lb pull in weight…
By this time, you probably think I am over obsessed by this 20lb Frazier pull in the weights, well in this matchup I do think it would be a crucial advantage to Joe, I will say again that if they were the same weight I would go with Rocky, But when I watch a Prime approaching Joe Finish Ellis, when I watch Joe nearly decapitate Foster with that Left Hook ( I know, different physionomy but no denying the punch quality) Then when I watch Joe use Skill, Desire and Non Stop Unbridled Aggression to Wade trough all that a tad rusty, but still magnificent Ali could throw at him, and still produce that final round left hook, I am left wondering Who in history could give Frazier 20lbs and successfully trade with him Toe to Toe?
This is purely a personal opinion, and no more valid then anyone else's, but for me the answer is Not Dempsey Not Sharkey Not Langford,…And Not Marciano… I really don’t know who, for me those extra 20lbs are a very big deal indeed, and For Frazier they help close the Deal. Beit the Ref or The Rocks corner, its Joe and of course those extra 20lbs, Circa 9th for me.
Very well put.
I tend to agree with you almost point by point here, almost down to the last detail. In fact I think you saved me the time of writing something very similar.
One thing though (and this would have been true had anyone stated this, myself included), I get the sneaking suspicion that your opinion that Rocky would be beaten by Frazier will TRULY be recieved by more than one (but definitely by ONE) as a slam or disrespect to Marciano.
For a fighter being so challenged defensively, His legion of fans are very Defensive, when one suggests that he could be beaten.
I too beleive Frazier would beat Rocky in a torrid affair and in my heavyweight rankings, I have Rocky positioned only slightly behind Frazier. Like Sage here, this says more about what I think of Joe than some interpreated slight towards Rocky.
Oh well. At least I tried.
Hawk
it was a valiant effort indeed, Hawk.Oh well. At least I tried.
This fight would be a war for the ages....imagine the ppvs on this one today.
I think cuts would be Rocky's undoing as much as anything. Rocky's odds get a bit better in a 12 rounder vs. a 15 rounder, but not by much.
Tons of leather, blood, power vs. power. Everything a fan loves.
In the end Frazier wins a tko in the late rounds......but much like the versus Ali in their first fight, Frazier won't be the same fighter afterwards, and neither will the Rock.
They'll destroy one another.
Originally Posted by SageBrush
GREAT post but i respectfully disagree with u. i dont think the 20lb would make much of a difference cause marciano was defintley stronger than frazier IMO. weight does not equal strength. almost all of marcianos opponents said marciano was by far the strongest they had ever faced. marciano has legendery strength. frazier was strong, but not strong in the mold of a marciano. marciano has the strength advantage so fraziers 20lb wont mean much IMO. marciano was stronger and more durable than joe. frazier doesnt match up to well vs rocky. frazier matches up better vs the slick boxers.
also frazier appears to be just a little hefty at 205lb (i know he was the fat kid when he was younger) while rocky was rock solid lean muscle at 185lb
for me i favor marciano in this matchup. he was stronger, more durable IMO. marcianos two fisted KO power is really the deciding factor for me. this is a huge advantage marciano has. i also believe despite frazier being faster, that marciano was the better inside fighter. marcianos superior two fisted power, strength, durability, and inside fighting will allow him to breakdown frazier. i can see the fight being even on points at the time of the stoppage.
marciano by late TKO
but wut a very well thoughout post! keep it up! u made some good points mate! well just have to agree to disagree on this one
Last edited by Elmer Ray; 07-26-2006 at 09:33 PM.
Hawk, Many Thanks, Many Times you have saved me putting Fingers to Keyboard, - i guess i did not hesitate enough on this one !
(which is probably a tribute to what would be a mouth-watering prospect )
Hi Elmer, No Problem if we disagree, My opinion is just My Opinion, good bad or ugly, nothing more, I did say that if they were of the same weight i would go for Rocky, where we disagree seems to be on the Effect/Advantage Joes extra 20lbs would provide, Rocky was indeed very strong, but that strengh was exhibited and quantified against a variety of fighters who were of the general size of Rocky, some older, and most of them looking to "Box" Rocky, and Perhaps Matador him into a big punch, None of them sought to steamroll Rocky onto his backfoot, deposit him against the ropes, and pound away with powerfully quality combinations, ...the sequancies of which have been drilled and honed in the Gym..(with Yank Barking 6 6 2 Body Body Head...6 2 2 Body Head Head) 3 minutes a round...with that Extra 20lb being utilised to the Max. In short...None of them were Joe Frazier of March 8 1971.
I am certainly not surprised that Many of Rocky's opponents said he was the strongest fighter that they had ever met, but it is intresting to speculate if that opinion would have undergone any revision had they Met a Prime Mr. Frazier ?
I fully Agree weight does not equal strengh - but not that Frazier was "Hefty" at 205, Post Ali 1st at 210-212 yes, but At 205 Joe was as finely honed as he was ever going to be.
If this seems all About Frazier and Little about Rocky, its because for me Rocky is a constant in the equasion, but a Prime Frazier with a 20lb Advantage is not a constant, as i said i can not off hand think of anyone who i would take to Give Joe 20lbs and Successfully out-trade him toe to toe
Even a truely great fighter like Rocky Marciano.
Kind Regards
Sage
I remember what Norman Mailer wrote about a Frazier-Marciano war: "If those two men had ever met, it would have been like two mack trucks hitting each other head on, then backing up to hit each other again; they would have kept it up until the wheels fell off the axles and the engine off the chassis."
I think Frazier was great, but I'll take the Rock in this one. I think Rocky would wear Joe down, although I agree that cuts may end it early in Frazier's favor.
My feeling on this has always been that Frazier was Marciano squared. Joe was bigger, stronger, quicker, more relentless and had much better mobility. IMO he also had every bit as good a chin, if not better. They were both (at their best) among the most finely conditioned heavyweights of all time. Rocky's only real advantage here would be two-fisted power, and even that is questionable as I think the Rock's left hook isn't as good as many feel it is and Joe's right is extremely underrated.
Much as I love the Rock, I feel Joe can beat him to the punch nearly every time, just by the level of intensity of his attack and his handspeed advantage. Joe, being much harder to hit solidly, is going to fare much better toe-to-toe than Rocky. It's a fight that gives Joe everything he wants - warring in the middle of the ring between committed bruisers, a guy he won't have to look for and who has proven not particularly hard to hit.
Love the Rock but feel this match is all wrong for him.
I disagree entirely. I think Marciano had the better chin (his knockdowns were all of the flash variety, when Marciano was off balance, whereas Frazier was rocked and in serious trouble or even stopped in several of his big fights) harder two fisted power, and a better defense. I always got the sense watching Frazier's bob and weave that it was almost like a soldier running from a firefight in a zig zag pattern without looking back. To me it ressembled a learned pattern, a sort of weave side to side up and down and hopefully they dont catch you thing, whereas Marciano actually used his eyes and reflexes to sit back and react to his opponents punches and avoid and counterpunch.
I'm gonna really get it for this, but I think Marciano was a more versatile fighter who contrary to popular belief actually would take backword steps in a fight and pace himself at times. He was much cagier than he is given credit for and not the glutton for punishment that writers liked to paint him as. Frazier on the other hand was always moving forward, toward punishment, and with his chin (which I equate to an Arturo Gatti type chin where he would be down but never out, but being down itself is costly on the scorecards) he could wander into trouble.
I could be wrong but having watched film and forming my own impressions on both men over the yeas, I think Marciano is the smarter, better fighter in this matchup. Frazier was excellent and his place in the top ten is undisputed but comes up short here IMO as far as chin and defense goes.
I think Joe is dropped a few times in an exciting, nonstop action, fast paced brawl with the result reading "Rocky Marciano UD Joe Frazier". No knock on Frazier, his will is there but I think physically he comes up slightly short.
Bump.
Talk about two mack trucks colliding, how about the Marciano-Vingo fight.
This is totally awesome. Thanks Dan!
thanks for the articles and the picture. of carnage photos--thats the worst ive ever seen. what damage marciano could reap; glad carmine was saved , but it took its toll.
I like Joe in this one. both had roughly the same power, but frazier had more movement. late round KO by smokin joe, no disrespect to rocky.
Carmine Vingo was a big big hitter so says Sonny Franseze. HIm and Marciano was a big big shootout with lots of power.
Rock v Frazier. A shoot out like that. Hmm. Weight plays no factor in this one, in fact it may slow down Joe dealing with rock hard Rocky. I cant see anybody shooting out with Rock like this. Im sure Rocky had a wallop near or sharper than Foreman. Fraziers gotta go down.
ONly Liston takes Rocky from what Ive seen in my time. Ali might have won a decison on his best nite. But Frazier plays right into Rocky and Rocky had two very powerful hands.
I see a beating for Joe.
ditto above--but imo marciano may well have beaten liston--toss up--but loses to louis and dempsey--especially the rugged ,hungry dempsey fairly early. louis would jab and combo in a real tough fight.
liston vs marciano-5 to 4 odds for marciano or even. there are those who pick in a punch out ,liston above all others--well not a bad choice at all. marciano ,and to a bit lesser extant ,liston were in primes -quicker than you thought. both can give and take it it . rocky will disagree, but as of present ,not that i may not change my mind- both are going to mid ring and eventually in the trenches. its a toss up because ,in the end , the chin will win--and both were tough. despite the outcome , i think rocky was rehaps the higher rated fighter against all types befor and what may come in the future--perhaps. i do know dempseys opinion on this-'-that big ,tough guys like liston can be beat. id like to see a pucher like louis in there with liston" dempsey may have been right. rocky may still have been just slightly too quick for liston--but the odds are soo short.rocky had two handed power to deal with the great frazier--perhaps --in my opinion-imo is all that it is.
20-25lbs is a lot to give away, especially when it's to Joe Frazier.
I can't see any area apart from possibly one punch power where the Rock has an advantage. Both had excellent stamina and workrates, Joe's workrate a little higher I think and a better body puncher. Frazier's chin is steel as is the Rock's. They will be wobbled a lot, but I think it goes the distance with Joe outworking him for a close but deserved decision
Just on the subject of Frazier who I feel was close to unbetable against opponents smaller or the same size. By size I also mean height. He was bombed out by Foreman because George was 217 of raw power and had maybe 4-5 inches of height advantage. How does Joe do against Tyson, who was identical to him in weight, height and build.
The Tyson of 1986-87 V Frazier 1970-71. I think Joe prevails to TKO Mike late from his constant hard pressure, body attack and pace. Any views?
If Joe survives the first three rounds, I say he breaks Tyson up slowly and meticulously, and finishes him around the 10th after a lengthy beating.
However, given that Tyson was one of the fastest starters in heavyweight history, and Joe was vulnerable early, I don't honestly like his chances of getting out of thoose first couple of rounds. With his bob-and-weave he MIGHT avoid the punishment that would stop him, and get him to where he was warm and smokin'...... but I doubt it.
Anyone that doesnt come out white hot and with plenty of power I like Joe's chances. But a hard hitter with speed,a ccuracy and who didn't need a couple of rounds to get warm.... that's exactly what it takes to get Joe out of there.
I agree, those first say 4 rds are crucial. But Joe will be firing back and hard at that. Also Tyson will be throwing shots at a fighter of equal height who dips a lot. I think Frazier will absorb the bombs, he'll definitely be wobbled but he has enough firepower to make Mike think hard. Tyson liked beating the bigger men. I think Frazier being so low will pose Mike problems. Styles do make fights. Foreman was a nightmare because of his size and reach and power. Mike has not got that advantage, plus he lacked Joe's mental toughness and real grit and character. I say it's hell for leather early, with both guys seriously hurt. Frazier slowly breaks Mike's spirit from rd 8 -12 for a TKO....What a dream fight though
Rocky all the way. Tyson too. Joe was too vulnerable, and not enough weapons.
rocky weighed in his prime 185-192lb........frazier was around 205lb aread. thats only 15-20lb and frazier was a bit more hefty around the midsection than rock.
i think there workrates were about equal, with marcianos punchrate higher.
Elmer - when Joe came in at 205, he was NOT heavy in the midsection. In fact, these two guys, at their best, are probably the two most supremely conditioned heavyweights ever.
And IMO the Rocky workrate is one of the great myths of boxing history. He was consistently working, worked just as much in the 15th as in the 1st, but there is no possible way he was firing as many punches as Joe, or as many punches with bad intentions as Joe. This isn't in any way meant as an insult to Marciano, but Frazier was the ultimate swarming heavyweight - nobody is in his league in that catagory.
bump.
Thanks for the bump; I want to change my pick
to Marciano, a fighter that I recently have really warmed to.
Both are great champions but I don't Ezzard Charles would be giving a prime Frazier hell like he did with Marciano. The 2nd fight Marciano was further ahead, but he got his nose busted up. Frazier's left hook would be the difference as it was against Quarry 2x and Chuvalo. Marciano was strong and perhaps the best conditioned heavyweight vs. the toughest heavyweight of all time in Frazier. Frazier would be hit with some right hand bombs like against Ringo, but I will take Frazier by tko on cuts.
Last edited by sr71ko; 12-16-2009 at 07:18 PM.
I love Marciano but Frazier was a shade better. Frazier by late stoppage.
Elwill... Cicero, NY?
Yeah, Cicero NY...just outside Syracuse NY.
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