Would the "Beast" get to Oscar early enough to KO him? I think Oscar would take him to the later rounds, and win by TKO.
Would the "Beast" get to Oscar early enough to KO him? I think Oscar would take him to the later rounds, and win by TKO.
to me that a diffficult fight to
pick, but if i have too i will go with
Mugabi say six rds
KO2 Mugabi. He'd come out winging with both hands and had real fast hands in there. I don't think Oscar has the footwork to get out of the way/mediocre right hand/left hook is not going to be enough to hurt/prevent a pre-hagler mugabi from winging.
The Beast was a real enigma at times.
The vicious ko's over JamesHard Rock Green and Frank The Animal Fletcher were no joke. They were two tough men who went out but hard and quick.
Mugabi who was handled by Mickey Duff, rocked Hagler good with that uppercut and hung in until the end.
25 KO's in 25 wins is no joke either even if you are knocking out your sister's girlfriends.
The Beast came down from 200+ lbs to make 154 at times and had the shoulders and bone structure to carry 160-70lbs and look strong. I stood next to him in Connecticut at Foxwoods in a fight I refereed in 98 down there. Mugabi was weighing in and in barefeet and trunks.
He seemed taller than his listed 5'8" but I was stronger and bigger through the chest and arms than him, but he was plenty strong. He had been through the mill and was taken out by a lightning fast left hook to the temple by Terry Norrris who dusted him off for the ko with a right hand. Shocking win to watch when it happened, I was as stunned as I was when Foreman dumped Frazier, believe me.
Then the Duane Thomas ko and the big downslide.
Oscar went up from an actual 135lbs when I refereed him V Leija and I saw him make the weight at 5'10 1/2" or so.
Hopkins cleaned his plough with that one body shot and I did not like the way he fought Trinidad or any bigger man with muscle to him. He destroyed many short little guys but Mugabi although so much inferior as a boxer would present a problem, a bone breaking problem.
Mugabi for all his limitations would have too much skeletal strength and raw power, determined to get to Oscar he would find him somehow, someway with a roundhouse shot on the shoulder, top of the head, or ribs and then Oscar would stumble, the Beast would go wild and hurt him without Oscar having the guns to stop his advance.
It took Hagler a long time and during that long time he would find Oscar and let him know that a welterweight no matter how good he is that cannot end matters with one punch, has no business in the ring with a killer punching middleweight and one who has come down from 200 lbs to make the weight.
For the doubters go to the file that reads Emile Griffith V Hurricane Carter.
Mugabi by tko inside 9 rounds.
Mugabi was never the same guy > hagler and left about 50% in the ring that night. I think that fight took about 33% out of hagler for that leonard fight as well.
But those early mugabi fights @ 154 in the early 80's was a much different version of the guy. I thought his hand speed might have exceeded tommy hearns. And 1 punch ko from both hands. And there was a ton of snap on those shots of his and mean intentions. Early mugabi was ko'ing guys like roosevelt green/curtis parker/nino gonzales/vampire johnson/earl hargrove/fletcher and those guys just weren't easy guys to stop during that timeframe. He was putting guys down for the count that had never been off their feet. Come to think of it, I think Oscar loses a bout or 2 facing that same competition.
But like you said, oscar doesn't have the firepower to slow the guy down. Just using the numbers game, mugabi is going to connect. To me anyway, this matchup reminds me of say that buster mathis jr--mike tyson fight; the mouse in the cage with the python might live for a week bit as soon as the snake gets hungry, the mouse has nothing to prevent the inevitable.
I think Mugabi could have knocked out any Jr. Middleweight in the history of the game on a given night. That being said, Mickey Duff said (amazingly) that Mugabi had confidence problems and a lot of self-doubt.
Mugabi took a lot of punishment before succumbing to Hagler. On the other hand, a quick shot from Norris put him on rubbery legs and he never recovered.
And Duane Thomas... I guess that could have been a fluke - having his orbital bone broken with a punch. Otherwise, he probably would have iced Thomas in a few rounds.
At his best, Mugabi stops DeLaHoya. Anything less results in a sudden ending with Mugabi exiting as he did against Norris.
The conditioning of Oscar worries me against a fighter like John. If one of those shots should ever hit Oscar's body he may be done right there.
Oscar boxing skills are on display but he will never be able to fully get on track against John. At 154 Oscar had it rough with Vargas untill he found the jab and the range.
Mugabi is way tougher to beat than Vargas, but not to out box. Give me Oscar in a very good fight.
Another older but interesting thread.
Oscar's power at 154 didn't impress me. Mugabi's was legendary.
I pick Mugabi by KO after 5. Oscar can run that long, maybe not much longer. How can Oscar win--with what does he keep the Beast off of him?
Oscar if he is not ultra careful and slick could lose by brutal KO.
He is not a big 154lber and Mugabi is.
The beast is too strong for Oscar here and will win
by decision or KO
Some folks attribute Hagler's relative rust versus Sugar Ray Leonard to old age. I agree that this was a factor, but will say that Hagler's prior fight against a 25-0, 25 KO Beast took a helluva a lot outta Marvelous Marvin. Sure, Hagler had slowed a bit by the time him and Mugabi fought, but honestly, Mugabi was a mutha! See what Ron said about Hardock Green and Frank Fletcher, and those guys would devour 90% of the guys out there today from 154-160.
I have a lot of respect for Oscar's abilities, but at 154, even figuring he can still box and has a decent chin at that weight, figure Mugabi clubs him into submission early, say less than 6.
Figure if Bhop could take out Oscar at 160 with a body shot, what's a muderous puncher like the Beast gonna do to him?
Right on....that fight was a real war and Mugabi did a lot of damage despite losing. Marvin really had to dig deep and take some real heavy shots throughout to survive and get the KO. Marvin was also 31/32 at this stage and had been in many wars. It was bound to take its toll.....Originally Posted by Petey
I've heard all this before, and I still don't get it. Leonard watched this fight and said, "I see something..." What the hell did everyone see that I missed?
Did Mugabi hit him? Yep. Did Mugabi hit him a lot? Not really. Did Mugabi ever appear to cause Marvin much concern? No. Did Marvin ever look like he wasn't going to win either by a lengthy beatdown knockout or a lopsided decision? Hell no.
I just don't think the Mugabi fight took anything out of Marvin at all. He fought Leonard stupid, gave the first 4 rounds away, made no effort to cut of the ring and just chased him all night. Unless Mugabi somehow managed to knock loose Marvin's sense of ring generalship, nothing happened in that fight that took anything from Marvin that I could see.
Marvin was plain POOR V Ray and maybe the Mugabi fight had ZERO to do with this. Marvin IMO had a very tough 11 rds V Mugabi. The beast landed some bombs on Hagler and though Marvin took them, they still had to have a mighty effect, even if only for that one night.
What Ray saw IMO was a slow Hagler, a hittable Hagler and at times a dumb Hagler. Ray had the style to exploit this older Hagler that the Beast did NOT
Oh and RD 6 alone took a hell of a lot out of Marvin, despite him winning it
Boy, do I respectfully disagree with you, TKO11, as to Mugabi's performance against and effect on Hagler.Originally Posted by TKO11
He was nailing Marvin all night with hard shots, and Gil Clancey even at one point was almost yelling about how furious the exchanges were "and Mugabi's not the one getting the worst of it!" I never saw that this fight was in the bag for Hagler as you seem to say, not while viewing it.
It was appropriate to give the naturally bigger champion, a true boxer-puncher, the edge in making the odds going in, as Hagler was given. But during the fight, he took a lot of punishment, and for most of the fight couldn't back Mugabi up (again noted by Clancy). For a boxer, Hagler was on the receiving end of a lot of blows against Mugabi.
To your question, "did Mugabi hit him a lot?" I say, YES. Did he "cause Hagler much concern?" I say, YES. So said Hagler's cornermen and announcer Clancy, an expert. As to your last remark, "Did Marvin ever look like he wasn't going to win either by a lengthy beatdown knockout or a lopsided decision? Hell no." -- I strongly disagree.
Disagree all you want Michael - Hagler was never hurt, and though I haven't watched it in a while, I don't remember him losing more than a round or two, if he lost that many. 'Gler never once looked like he was not going to win.
When was Hagler hurt. People make way to much out of a good shot landing. They say Hagler was hurt during the Hearns fight. When? Because someone lands a big shot, and it stops theother fighter dead in his tracks does not mean he is hurt. How about being smart and avoiding getting hit with anothr shot. Hagler if you look at the mugabi fight was the one always coming forward and pressing the fight. Sure Mugubi landed a lot of shots, but that was haglers style. Mugabi at the time was 25-0 25kos, full of confidence. I beg many on here to please review the entire situation before making outlandishj spur of the moment claims.
Hagler got hit vs Vito antefermo too. Hagler didnt look good in 83 vs Duran. I think the issue inthe leonard fight was simply stupid strategy the 1st 4 rounds, and leonard forcing hagler to lead, and his lateral movmennt making hagler lung vs hager cutting off the ring, and thus being able to set and plant punches. However, when have you ever seen hagler do this????????? Hagler always fought flat footed fighters that came directly at him, and looked great doing this, but when he fought 2 fighters that didnt not. he looked bad. Think about that...and the age old message. STYLES MAKES FIGHTS.
Mugabi at 154 destroys DeLahoya, as he would be way to strong. Look at the Vargas fight when he was aggressive and keeping DlH back to the ropes. DLH came on when he forced the fight back to the center of the ring. Styles...people, style and strategies.
What Leonard stated he saw in that Mugabi--Hagler fight were a couple of interesting observations; the first was that Marvin was good but mechanical. And he really was mechanical--it was always the same combos he threw and the same sequence of punches. A guy with boxing smarts like Ray Leonard and much the better footwork is certainly going to exploit that & Leonard said he knew everything Hagler was going to do.
The other Leonard criticism was that Mugabi was always trying to knock out Hagler with his punches. Not just to win the bout, but to ko a guy w/ a concrete chin. A guy like Leonard won't empty his gastank trying to ko a guy w/ a solid chin--he's happy to box his way to a decision.
Whenever those guys with tons of ringsmarts==another was Ali when Foreman was on his run==say they see flaws and are willing to fight the guy everyone else loves, it certainly does count for something. And they sure do seem to find fatal flaws that makes guys look ordinary.
I agree with robert. Hagler was looking a lot more robotic and slower vs Mugabi than he had in years past.
Oscar-Mugabi . . . very interesting fight. Mugabi probably would be the strongest man Oscar ever fought, and at his best certaintly better than Vargas. But Oscar's never been knocked out early, and I have a hard time seeing that happen. Would the pressure take it's toll though? I'll say probably. Mugabi TKO 11. But Oscar would make it very competetive and who knows maybe surprise him with the left hook.
Oscar is a real championship fighter. A guy who can pull the win out of the bag. If he can go 11, I see no reason why he then can't win. The later this fight goes the more a favorite Oscar becomes. Mugabi I think will panic if Oscar is still around come rd 8 or so. I think Oscar will be nailed too hard and too early and may lose by KO....
This is now my fourth favorite fantasy fight of all time.
3. Zab Judah vs. Mike Tyson/Jack Dempsey, 2. James Butler vs. Mike Tyson/Jack Dempsey, 1. Ray Leonard vs. Mike Tyson/Jack Dempsey.
Just as I'd fully expect the smaller guys to get all but ed in thier matches, I'd expect the Beast to absolutely break DLH. It wouldn't be easy, mind you, as while I think DLH is the most ove fighter of this generation I still respect his speed, technical ability (especially compared to Mugabi) and very unde toughness.
Still wouldn't be enough.
Mugabi TKO 7-10.
TKO11 and Pink, I have to stand corrected and agree with you.
Yesterday, I viewed my recording of Hagler-Mugabi (ABC). Granted, ABC removed rds 5,8, and 10. And Keith Jackson repeatedly called him "John Paul Mugabi" .. . . remember how he got religion before that fight? I think I like my original Closed Circuit call better.
Anyway, Hagler DID appear to win every round, and was totally the aggressor. At best, the Beast fought BACK with some good punches, but to me (if not to Gil Clancy on the original call), the Beast got the worst of it throughout. What made it memorable was HOW MUCH PUNISHMENT Mugabi could take.
Mugabi was too big for DLH.
Mike, I thought the Hagler-Mugabi fight was close. The real difference was the way Hagler was using his jab. John couldn't match hagler's experience but he sure busted him up. I don't think Oscar could take too much of that.
I think Mugabi gets too much love on the back of his pre-Marvin wins (mostly against faded or fading fighters, however tough they might have been) and the Marvin defeat. Like TKO and others I thought Marvin won pretty handily and never looked in any real danger. I also think that the positives of Mugabi's performance had something to do with a slipping Marvin. What came after the Hagler fight cannot be simply dismissed, even if we believe that most of John's fight was left behind in the Hagler pasting. He looked a highly vulnerable and slow fighter while still in his physical prime.
DLH is far from being a great L-Middle or Middle but I'm not sure he has to be. Mugabi will come after him and maybe he gets him early but if (and when) DLH survives - DLH is a tough guy and I dont think in a fantasy match we can have the Hopkins fight as our first image - I think Mugabi's self doubt might kick in and Oscar will take control to win a close but fair decision.