Iron Clad: Mike Tyson’s Place in History Part I

[Chuck1052]

Alexis Arguello gave everything that he had in the first bout with
Aaron Pryor, a fighter with youth, stamina, strength, and an
unbelievable work rate. In fact, I thought Arguello performed
extremely well in the bout, but he took quite a bit of punishment
and was stopped in a brutal way. In the second bout, it was
obvious that Arguello was a shell of his former self and took
a beating. Yes, he quit in the latter bout, but he was far
from being the vintage fighter he was during his prime
years.

By the way, Armando Muniz, an incredibility game fighter
during his prime, quit in his bout with Sugar Ray Leonard.
Muniz never fought again.

Some people would say that Muhammad Ali quit in his
corner in his bout with Larry Holmes. Of course, Ali
making an ill-advised comeback and was taking a beating.

- Chuck Johnston

[hawk5ins]

That I am not DAMNING Pep, Arguello and Cerdan (Or Louis!) here for their actions and do NOT hold them in any less light becuase of them either.

What I am saying is that if LISTON's actions are going to be held agianst HIM, then a bit of fair play for those who DO hold it agianst him, should be spread accross the board.

Hawk

[PeteLeo]

This is fun, but if I may interrupt for a moment:

I'm pretty sure Angelo Dundee knows about Monsel and its effects. In interviews I've seen with him, he's never identified the "substance" smeared on Sonny's gloves by that name and at least once (I believe) stated, "I don't know what it was, but it burned like hell." Sonny's cheating was one of the poorest kept secrets up until today's homerun hitters coming out of the steroid closet. His "great" win over Machen was another prime example of this cheating. We have people on the record, on film stating that they witnessed the stuff being applied to Liston's gloves and then thrown beneath the ring. It's a charge not so easily dismissed.
Pep has, in the past at least, been run through the ringer over his dive against Perez. I know very little about that fight (I've seen a few clips of it on tape), but I'll accept the prevailing opinion that it was a fix. However, this was a thoroughly washed up Pep well past his championship days, no? Maybe he really needed the money and knew his earning days were dwindling to nothing. He wasn't the heavyweight champion of the world/the number one heavyweight contender but a fight removed from the title. His dumpjob in no way approaches the ignominy of Liston's two debacles with the entire sporting world as the audience. I won't try to rehabilitate Pep's image (far beyond my powers, in any case), but I will say that if we can understand LaMotta's confessed dive against Fox for a shot at the title, we can cut Willie a little slack if he turned actor for a little walking around money.

Liston-Ali I & II are certainly not in the same universe as Arguello-Pryor II, Cerdan-Lamotta, or Pep-Sadler III & IV, in my opinion. Each of those was a legitimate beatdown. Where was Sonny administered even a mild portion of those hidings? He got cut in the first fight -- big deal. Anyhow, I don't think he quit due to "punishment" taken on that occasion, anyway: I think he tanked it because he was supposed to lose. Watch the round that Ali fights while blinded by Sonny's "stuff": Liston doesn't make a realistic effort to pounce on Muhammad. Instead he swings and misses more amateurishly than he ever had as a pro and probably more than he did as an actual amateur (according to reports). Whatever you thnk of Nick Tosches' THE DEVIL AND SONNY LISTON otherwise, he does a good job of highlighting this obviously intentional "ineptitude" while Ali was at his most vulnerable. The rematch? I don't think there's much disagreement about that on this thread -- total fins-and-snorkel tankjob dive. I might demur on a minor point, in that I don't believe it took any real acting talent for Liston to accept a soft right slap and drop to the canvas semi-realistically.

Trying to equate either of these career-defining embarrassments with Arguello throwing everything he had for most of ten rounds and then taking the ten when he probably could have risen for more beating is pointless to me. Ditto Cerdan's struggle one-handed for seven or eight rounds against a strong mugger like LaMotta (ever had a separated shoulder? I have -- it feels like a gigantic toothache outside your mouth), and an aging Pep's foul-filled (from both guys) spanking from a younger, larger, stronger, HOF-hitting Sadler. I've never heard anyone accuse Louis of "quitting" against Schmeling after getting the shit kicked out of him for eight straight rounds (slight correction: I did once read a Louis bio by a Black American writer who believed that Joe was trying to foul out, a la Wills with Sharkey, in the 12th so that he wouldn't get knocked out, though the writer never intimated that the KO itself was questionable). I hardly know what to say about that. The punishment Louis took flush to the face was leagues worse than anything Liston "endured" with Ali and certainly enough to pull the plug on just about any fighter other than a freak like Chuvalo or McCall.
I guess next we'll be saying that poor ol' Sonny took a worse lathering than Baer against the Brown Bomber, huh?
That's all for now from me, but you guys keep going as long as you like. There are few things more intellectually invigorating than a heartfelt disagreement over some subject important to all parties involved . . . as long as it doesn't devolve into name-calling or threats, of course. Which this one doesn't seem to be doing. Have at it! PeteLeo.

[10-8]

I'm pretty sure Angelo Dundee knows about Monsel and its effects. In interviews I've seen with him, he's never identified the "substance" smeared on Sonny's gloves by that name and at least once (I believe) stated, "I don't know what it was, but it burned like hell."

I think he tanked it because he was supposed to lose. Watch the round that Ali fights while blinded by Sonny's "stuff": Liston doesn't make a realistic effort to pounce on Muhammad. Instead he swings and misses more amateurishly than he ever had as a pro and probably more than he did as an actual amateur (according to reports). Whatever you thnk of Nick Tosches' THE DEVIL AND SONNY LISTON otherwise, he does a good job of highlighting this obviously intentional "ineptitude" while Ali was at his most vulnerable.

Why would Liston smear Monsel on his gloves to blind Ali just so he could swing and miss on purpose "because he was supposed to lose"??? Doesn't make alot of sense.

[hawk5ins]

He believed what got into ALi's eyes was indeed monsel's solution. I've heard him state this on multiple occasions and one interview was on what I believe was NBC special The Greatest rounds of all time, in which, Dundee, Archie Moore were guests on.

From Ali's book by Thomas Hauser:

"It might have been liniment from Liston's shoulder, My guess is it was the coagulant that his corner uses on the cuts. Probably, Cassius got the solution on his gloves and when he brushed them agianst his forehead, it left a layer of something that trickeled down with the Perspiration into his eye."

Dundee has, as I stated previously, identified that the coagulent that he beleives was used, as Monsel solution.

Mon´sel's so`lu´tion
1. (Med.) An aqueous solution of Monsel's salt, having valuable styptic properties.

Definition of Styptic: This is an astringent agent that stops or reduces external bleeding.


Hawk

[Sonny's Jab]

***************

[Sonny's Jab]

************

[HE Grant]

I cannot believe anyone actually thinks Liston was hurt at all by that Ali slap in the second fight...Liston went in the tank for any number of reasons, period. I always say the biggest proof is the shock and rage Ali himself displayed as he yelled for Liston to get up from the dive. It is so obvious it is sad...people will buy a bridge every day of the week.

[10-8]

He believed what got into ALi's eyes was indeed monsel's solution. I've heard him state this on multiple occasions and one interview was on what I believe was NBC special The Greatest rounds of all time, in which, Dundee, Archie Moore were guests on.

From Ali's book by Thomas Hauser:

"It might have been liniment from Liston's shoulder, My guess is it was the coagulant that his corner uses on the cuts. Probably, Cassius got the solution on his gloves and when he brushed them agianst his forehead, it left a layer of something that trickeled down with the Perspiration into his eye."

Dundee has, as I stated previously, identified that the coagulent that he beleives was used, as Monsel solution.

Mon´sel's so`lu´tion
1. (Med.) An aqueous solution of Monsel's salt, having valuable styptic properties.

Definition of Styptic: This is an astringent agent that stops or reduces external bleeding.

Good job Hawk.

In addition, regarding Clay-Liston it must also be mentioned that Sonny had a legitimate shoulder injury which was verified afterwards.

This is from an AP report dated Feb 26th, 1964;

"Doctor's Findings; DOCTORS CONFIRM INJURY TO LISTON

Feb. 26 -- A team of eight physicians said in a statement issued early this morning that the defeated heavyweight champion, Sonny Liston, had suffered an arm injury that would have prevented him from defending himself in his title fight against Cassius Clay."

[hawk5ins]

He. I personally do NOT beleive that Liston was hurt in the second bout. I do beleive however that the punch Ali landed, DID knock him down. As I have said earlier, Liston going down when he was hit was Immediate and seemless. Liston as he showed while ON the canvas, was not a very good actor. I can't imagine him ever being able to fake/choreograph the knockdown as realistic as it was. I just think he got caught with something he didn't see, wasn't hurt all, but then said:

"I ain't getting up. Joe count me out. Look I'm real hurt. See I'm up on one knee and ooooooh, there I go! Rolling over onto my back! C'mon Mr. Walcott! Count to 10!"

It was pathetic. The performance once he was on the canvas.

Hawk

[PeteLeo]

I've never heard Dundee mention any name of the "stuff" on Liston's gloves.
Why use it if he was going to lose anyway? Simple. It's called "over/under" in gambling parlance. Sonny was going down, but he had to reach a certain point in the match for the gamblers in on the fix to maximize their profits. Surely you've heard such talk in bad boxing movies in the past (i.e., Ving Rhames to Bruce Willis in PULP FICTION: "In the fifth, your ass goes down."). After a round or two, it must have been pretty clear to Liston that he's not going to beat Ali even at his best and might, just might not make it to the eighth/ninth without a little "help." Thus the blinding ointment. Of course, this was taking a chance that Muhammad might quit due to the pain and impairment (which he tried to do), but even in that case Sonny would still be champ and could redeem himself by fixing the rematch in some dramatic way like a first round knockout "loss." If the worst acting he did in the second bout was wallowing around on the canvas like a beached walrus, then the worst on display during the first had to be the "missing" he did against the helpless Ali.
As much fun as speculating about these two farces are today, it must be remembered what a massive amount of damage their obviousness did to the sport in '64 and '65. PeteLeo.

[hawk5ins]

of what Sonny's intentions were, this is all pure specualtion.

DUndee did indeed list Monsel solution as the substance that got in Ali's Eyes.

I heard him say it when asked a question about what happened in the 5th round. He was very clear about exactly what he thought it was.

That said, I too have read him making general references to something getting into Ali's eyes. The Quote I took from Huaser's book is one such source.

Hawk

[PeteLeo]

All right, I'll take your word for it, but that still doesn't explain the alleged eye-witness testimony of the little tin containing the stuff being tossed under the ring after it was smeared on Liston's gloves.

Please note in my prior post that I pointed out we're speculating about these fights (and how much fun it is). Nothing else can adequately explain that fifth round to me, unless Liston was simply a complete coward -- which most Liston fans would deny more fervently than the possibility that he was a diver for other, more mercenary reasons. PeteLeo.

[Elmer Ray]

got a gift draw against Eddie Machen.

do u have a source for this match Mr. E





hawkins.........sorry for the delay i will respond to the greb-walker debate in the other thread

[hawk5ins]

I have not heard that there were eye witnesses to Joe Polino's story. All I have ever heard on this is that Joe Polino told Jack McKinney this story and I originally heard it repeated by Larry Merchant and then subsequently Nigel Collins and then Finally McKinney himself in the HBO Liston documentary.

I would be very interested in veiwing the soruce for that information re actual eye witnesses to Polino's story.

Thanks in advance.

Hawk

[HE Grant]

I think he took a dive with the first punch he was hit with. Ali was moving backwards when he threw it for God's sake. He could not drop Richard Dunn with that shot.

[10-8]

Why use it if he was going to lose anyway? Simple. It's called "over/under" in gambling parlance. Sonny was going down, but he had to reach a certain point in the match for the gamblers in on the fix to maximize their profits. Surely you've heard such talk in bad boxing movies in the past (i.e., Ving Rhames to Bruce Willis in PULP FICTION: "In the fifth, your ass goes down."). After a round or two, it must have been pretty clear to Liston that he's not going to beat Ali even at his best and might, just might not make it to the eighth/ninth without a little "help." Thus the blinding ointment. Of course, this was taking a chance that Muhammad might quit due to the pain and impairment (which he tried to do), but even in that case Sonny would still be champ and could redeem himself by fixing the rematch in some dramatic way like a first round knockout "loss." If the worst acting he did in the second bout was wallowing around on the canvas like a beached walrus, then the worst on display during the first had to be the "missing" he did against the helpless Ali.

Pete,

I give you top marks for having both an original and creative imagination and double top marks for having the brass balls to put your name beside this fairy tale theory.

[hawk5ins]

I respect your opinion here. But Sonny actually took a much harder shot about 20 seconds earlier. If he was going to choregraph a dive with the first punch he took, THAT would have been the one to do it with. The shot he DID go down with, I simply beleive he never saw it.

Again, after seeing his acting job on the canvas, I don't think he was a good enough actor to pull off going down as Immediate and as seemless as he did wiht that shot.

Agian, I DO NOT BELIEVE LISTON WAS HURT. I simply don't think he saw it.

Hawk

[PeteLeo]

Man, that didn't come from my half-empty skull. Stories about Sonny deciding when to go into the tank have been circulating since 1964. I heard my uncles talking about it before I saw my first TV match.

There were people outside the ring that Liston was a lot more intimidated by than anybody he ever exchanged a punch with. If you're going to fix a fight and you have at least a half-assed idea what you're doing, you also fix the round. PeteLeo.

[hawk5ins]

I would have thought that these stories would have been a bit more wide spread if they were as common place as you stated.

Yes, there has always been talk of chicanery about the fight. But only until Polino told the story to McKinney, was I ever aware than ANYONE knew this had happened.

If your uncles told you that they heard this from some source, I have no reason to doubt you. That said, it does surprise me that this is not more "understood" story than it actually is.

Everytime I have ever heard reference to the doctoring of the gloves, it can be traced DIRECTLY back to Polino telling McKinney. Interesting indeed.

Hawk

[thumper3852]

the worst on display during the first had to be the "missing" he did against the helpless Ali

Sonny missed his punches throughout the fight, not just suddenly and inexplicably in the fifth round. Ali was way too fast for Sonny and Liston just couldn't figure him out.

Ali's advantage of speed was coupled to not being afraid of Liston, something else Liston wasn't used to.....

I never doubted the veracity of the shoulder injury....anymore than I doubted Tyrell Biggs' ribs being broken; the difference of course being Biggs fought on, Sonny just quit.

Smearing Monsel solution on your gloves is just as likely to get in your own eyes as it is your opponent's.....that it was inadvertent makes more sense, actually. As for liniment, has anyone had any first hand knowledge of a cornerman carrying some with him into a fight? I've never seen it myself.

[PeteLeo]

Actually, the rematch has gobbled up most of the gossip space in the decades since, being so blatant a dive, but the first match has always had its place among the beer-and-chips league. My Uncle Len always claimed he made a thousand bucks betting on a Clay win between six and nine (but he claimed a lot of things). And I doubt that any of my relatives ever even heard of Polino when they were speculating on what was rubbed on Sonny's gloves in Ali I and the Machen bouts. It really wasn't regarded as a big secret. PeteLeo.

[hawk5ins]

Any published stories relating to Liston's gloves being doctored trace back to Joe Polino. And his telling of it to Jack McKinney.

I have yet to find any source material relating to this story that does not involve these two.

IF it was suhc and "understood" occurence, one would think that it would be more widely documented.

Hawk

[PeteLeo]

Sort of like all of those published pieces outlining the raving antiSemite Mel Gibson prior to his drunken eruption on the freeway?

Not all information is neatly catalogued and annotated throughout its existence There are some very interesting snippets of information regarding living (and active) sports and show biz icons that have yet to reach the tabloids

PeteLeo

[hawk5ins]

Ali Liston was a Huge fight and a historic upset.

Ali's eye troubles in the 5th and him potentially quitting if Dundee didn't talk him out of it, is very well documented. Liston's shoulder injury has been well covered and was investigated at the time.

Becuase of the controversy, writers were digging for information about WHAT happened to Ali's eyes. What got into it? How did it get into his eyes? Lrd Knows the Muslim faction closely associated with Ali, were ready to blame Angelo.

Dundee, when asked about this has stated that he either thought it was liminmet from Sonny's shoulder or a coagulent from the cut under his eye. He has ever stated that he thought it was indeed Monsel solution.

The question has been asked MULTIPLE times and investigations were done.

BUT only until Polino told his story to Jack McKinney was it EVER reported that Liston had a substance placed on his gloves directly by Polino himself.

Had this been some sort of Innocuous instance among lower profile fighters, certainly could buy that it was a mystery that REALLY was known about, but simply never reported until years later.

This was FAR too high profile of an event and the controversy was VERY high profile. To think that this theory circulated but was NEVER put into print until Polino FINALLY told McKinney (after Sonny's death btw), is a bit difficult for me to swallow.

Not saying Impossible, but In my opinion, improbable.

Hawk

[Funk49]

I can't see Liston throwing the first fight either. As 10-8 alluded to earlier, why would Liston blind Clay to the point to where if Angelo Dundee hadn't had his head about him, Liston would have won at the end of the 4th? That was Liston or Liston's team trying to ensure victory because Sonny really poured it on in the 5th.....sure didn't look like he was trying to lose or "miss his punches" to me.

He quit because he knew the knock-out was coming and Clay was beating him up....the 6th round was an example of what was to come.

[PeteLeo]

Read THE DEVIL AND SONNY LISTON and then watch tapes of Liston against Machen and Williams and SEE the same "innocuous stuff" get into their eyes when Super Sonny first feels the hint that he may be in for a rough night.

Williams was talking about something being "hinkey" long before Polino and a dead Sonny Liston.

PeteLeo.

[Funk49]

Liston and Tyson, I feel are probably both shafted a little in where they rank among their contemporaries when it comes to heart, which is what every true boxing fan looks for, however, I think both showed it early in their careers and it was only after they'd gotten "long in the tooth" that their desire to prove to everybody that they were the best became overshadowed by their general perceived pesimissm towards their own careers....aka, they just didn't care anymore. Liston, when he won the title initially, got off the plain in his hometown to basically NO ONE. Nobody cared that he won the most coveted prize in all of sports. He was looking forwars to being the world champion after working so hard and fighting so many good contenders, proving himself the very best....and then to have practially no fan approval.


....fellas, that's got to affect a man's heart. These men, who put on gloves, do it for their own personal reasons, no dobut; but how much of those reasons revolve around seeking public approval? If nobody "loves you", what have you got to fight for?

While Mike did have fans after his prison stint, the only people whom he trusted had either died or betrayed him. These few people are at the core of every man's heart. It's difficult to keep heart, when there's no one to keep it for besides yourself.

Just a thought.

[PeteLeo]

Yeah, as much as I might rip on him, that story about Liston on the plane really gets to me. I've heard it recounted on TV and read of it in bios of the guy. On the flight home, he was visibly excited about the reception he expected. He was even practicing a speech that included a portion about how he hoped he could be a good role model for younger boys who were coming up hard and his example might steer them away from the pitfalls he'd encountered. Then the plane arrived, the doors opened, and there was fucking nobody there to even give him a wave of welcome or congratulations. Some people feel that a "new" Sonny Liston died a'borning at that instant. The city pols had been notified of his arrival, and not one of the pricks had the gumption to show his face.
I think a lot of us on this very site can agree that where you've come from and what you've done in the past shouldn't be held against you forever if you're willing to make an honest effort to be better than you have been. Sonny still would have lost to Ali in a couple of years, but if he had been shown a crumb of kindness on what could have been the brightest day of his life, maybe he would have lost with dignity and become a respected ex-champ and elder statesman. PeteLeo.

[hawk5ins]

Also proposes that Archie Moore threw his bout agianst Rocky Marciano.

As far as a reliable source, I don't think much else needs to be said about Nick Tosches work.

Hawk