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Thread: STOP..american boxing excuses

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    STOP..american boxing excuses

    you know what is funny now that russians/soviet blog fighters are takeing over the heavyweights and boxing in general...and now americans are full of excuses...

    ohh now our best kids play basketball etc and boxing is not popular as it was before and this many in part be true..

    but what they all seem to forget that during the "glory years" when the americans ruled the heavyweight class and most of boxing...the soviet fighters who would most often beat the future pro stars in the amauters could not go pro...
    if guys like john tate become champion does anyone really think that a man like igor vysotsky would not be a champion

    but they ofcourse forgot to mention this when they made jokes about how white guys could not fight, and what a joke it is to see a white guy fighting for a world crown in a movie...

    where are the jokes now...
    about the great black hope lol

    before they made all these thoerys about blacks being better at sports
    but no one makes these thoerys about whites from soviet blog...
    even though they rule power/combat sports like wrestling,olympic weightlifting and are excellent at boxing,mixed martial arts,judo etc etc
    no no they are good because there are no americans around...


    another thing i want to add is hbo's trying to hide this and pretend that world champions from europe don't exist...
    examples...

    watch hbo covering the lightheavyweight divison they will talk about tarver and hopkins but what they ofcourse to mention are the champions in the weightclass

    wbc tomaz adamek..poland/germany
    wba tiozzo...france
    ibf clinton woods...england
    wbo zsolt erdei...hungary/germany

    So most fans there never heard of these guys and ofcourse assume they are watching the best

    another example they will play that jermaine taylor and wright are the best middleweights but will ofcourse pretend that arthur aberaham(armenia/russia and germany) does not exist...

    hbo when talking about up and coming heavyweights always mention clavin brock and samuel peter that interesting but ofcourse
    ruslan chagev(biggest amauter star of the group),taras bidenko,viricis are never mentioned

    and if they lose in the amauters to soviet guys...it is always a "robbery",or it's the computer system etc...give me a fcuking break lol
    there are many more examples...

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    American’s full of excuses…most American boxing fans realize that the heavyweight division is a joke with what four different fighters calling themselves champion? Let one of the fighters come out on top and I’ll give him the proper credit, but until then all we have is four paper belt holders in a very, very weak heavyweight division…nothing more, nothing less!

    Also, I think that if guys like Erdei, Tiozzo and Adamek would actually start to fight some of the actual top fighters in they’re respective division, then they possibly might get better recognition from the likes of HBO, but as long as guys like Erdei, Woods, Adamek and Tiozzo continue to face the weak opposition that the WBO is renowned for placing in front of they're belt holders then no one is interested...especially big money backer HBO. All those guys are doing is fighting the same stiffs over and over each taking they’re turn beating the same non-ranked fighter and there is nothing bias, or national about it…that’s how it is. I see that Tiozzo will be fighting Garay, who was last seen losing two bouts to Erdei. Erdei will be facing that ever tough TBA, but the opponents he has fought since winning the WBO belt are far from being the elite of the division. Adamek is facing Briggs again, which the first bout they had was really good and entertaining, so that fight should be a good one and Woods, well at least he is going to be facing Johnson again after four relatively easy bouts in a row. Let those guys actually step up and face someone then if they are still getting no recognition then I would say you have something to complain about, but so far they have done nothing to catch my eye, much less catch the eye of big money HBO, or Showtime.

    The reason that HBO are always talking about the Tarver’s, the Hopkins’ and the Taylor’s is simple...these fighters are actually fighting the very best opposition out there whereas guys like Arthur Abraham are content to fight old has-beens, young might-be's and middle never-was's. Abraham made some noise by fighting Ikeke, but then he went off that momentum to face two opponents who are not even ranked in the top ten and the same thing can be said of Erdei, Adamek, Woods and Tiozzo...who have those guys fought that are truly top ranked contenders? Out of around ten total fights amonst all those mentioned I would be willing to bet that there has only been maybe three that were actually top ten ranked opponents…3 out of 10!

    HBO talks about Hopkins and Taylor why...simple...because they are the true champions of they're division's and they continue to fight and beat the top opposition while other fighters are content to hold on to the paper title belt they won and defend it against the weakest opposition allowable.

    If those guys you mention would start stepping up and facing the very best then they would get the proper recognition, but then again...if they step up and begin to fight the very best they stand a good chance of losing, which is why Tarver, Hopkins and Taylor are talked about…they are not worried about putting everything on the line against the best…they fight the best and as a result they have earned all the praise they get, so why should some other fighter, who really has not really proven much, get the same kind of recognition? Let them earn that recognition and if they are able to do so, then they will get the proper credit, but if they continue to face the relatively weak, un-ranked opposition then there is nothing to praise, except that a probable A-level fighter can beat a B and C-level fighter!
    Last edited by BDeskins; 08-13-2006 at 07:40 AM.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Partisanship...although understandable completely UNACCEPTABLE!

    I use to believe as a young boxing fan that the Champion of the World was the 'best' in his division and in the world. WOW was I naive!
    While reaserching Gilroy's career my "eyes were opened."

    I have discovered that National pride in-tow with the strong financial pull determine in a big way "who ends up who (Champion)."

    Sad to say that in many cases the World Champion Is NOT Always the Best!!!

    I discovered that although American fighters in the "heavier divisions" were for the most part a touch better, the lengths that were taken to keep the Champions - American and the titles on American soil, was, shall we say necessary...this interfered with Top performers from the 'other' Leading Boxing Nation's opportunities - for, at the very least, their say Top 5 men in each weight!

    BUT America was NOT alone, England was 'horrible' for it and France, well the amount of decisions that went to the "home boy" was at times criminal, I've since learned in these times Germany are bad for it among the top Euro fighters...Partisanship, we can STOP it - By MAKING true Champions and Contenders fight each other and on 'neutral' ground.

    What I will say about Americans, they CLAIM their fighters and sing their praises, Champions and Leading men alike, where as Britain and Europe will "regurgitate" the same "few" Champions - OVER & OVER again like ALL the Rest didn't matter - DISGRACEFUL!

  4. #4
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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    actually i thought it was an early stoppage. damn, rock was leading going intot he 12th, he was gassed alittle bit and went down - jae nady stopped the fight..wtf

    i was actually furious, same with richard steele..damn i think r steel should be banned from boxing for ridiculous stoppages

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    American’s full of excuses…most American boxing fans realize that the heavyweight division is a joke with what four different fighters calling themselves champion? Let one of the fighters come out on top and I’ll give him the proper credit, but until then all we have is four paper belt holders in a very, very weak heavyweight division…nothing more, nothing less!

    Also, I think that if guys like Erdei, Tiozzo and Adamek would actually start to fight some of the actual top fighters in they’re respective division, then they possibly might get better recognition from the likes of HBO, but as long as guys like Erdei, Woods, Adamek and Tiozzo continue to face the weak opposition that the WBO is renowned for placing in front of they're belt holders then no one is interested...especially big money backer HBO. All those guys are doing is fighting the same stiffs over and over each taking they’re turn beating the same non-ranked fighter and there is nothing bias, or national about it…that’s how it is. I see that Tiozzo will be fighting Garay, who was last seen losing two bouts to Erdei. Erdei will be facing that ever tough TBA, but the opponents he has fought since winning the WBO belt are far from being the elite of the division. Adamek is facing Briggs again, which the first bout they had was really good and entertaining, so that fight should be a good one and Woods, well at least he is going to be facing Johnson again after four relatively easy bouts in a row. Let those guys actually step up and face someone then if they are still getting no recognition then I would say you have something to complain about, but so far they have done nothing to catch my eye, much less catch the eye of big money HBO, or Showtime.

    The reason that HBO are always talking about the Tarver’s, the Hopkins’ and the Taylor’s is simple...these fighters are actually fighting the very best opposition out there whereas guys like Arthur Abraham are content to fight old has-beens, young might-be's and middle never-was's. Abraham made some noise by fighting Ikeke, but then he went off that momentum to face two opponents who are not even ranked in the top ten and the same thing can be said of Erdei, Adamek, Woods and Tiozzo...who have those guys fought that are truly top ranked contenders? Out of around ten total fights amonst all those mentioned I would be willing to bet that there has only been maybe three that were actually top ten ranked opponents…3 out of 10!

    HBO talks about Hopkins and Taylor why...simple...because they are the true champions of they're division's and they continue to fight and beat the top opposition while other fighters are content to hold on to the paper title belt they won and defend it against the weakest opposition allowable.

    If those guys you mention would start stepping up and facing the very best then they would get the proper recognition, but then again...if they step up and begin to fight the very best they stand a good chance of losing, which is why Tarver, Hopkins and Taylor are talked about…they are not worried about putting everything on the line against the best…they fight the best and as a result they have earned all the praise they get, so why should some other fighter, who really has not really proven much, get the same kind of recognition? Let them earn that recognition and if they are able to do so, then they will get the proper credit, but if they continue to face the relatively weak, un-ranked opposition then there is nothing to praise, except that a probable A-level fighter can beat a B and C-level fighter!
    Great post, and it speaks the truth.

    With that said, Abraham is never talked about, because the best opposition he's faced I would say is probably Howard Eastman. Just because someone has a belt, doesn't make them a World Champion. Case and point, the entire heavyweight division.

    Taylor and Winky, along with Hopkins are willing to fight the best. Hopkins cleared out a division for years, then moved up and killed Tarver. Why does he not deserved to be praised and talked about? You'd rather hear about a guy fighting C-level opposition, and for it he has a World Champion belt around his waist? I don't buy it for one minute.

    Vitali was adored in America. Why? Because he stepped in the right with the best, was beating the best, and a technicallity stopped the fight. You can guess what happens in those later rounds, but the reality of it is, he was ahead on every card when that fight ended. For him calling out Lennox, fans embraced, and he became a huge star for that short time. Fight the fights, you'll get the recognition.

    Your reasoning goes along with alot of American fighters are well. You've never heard Allan Greene mentioned on HBO, have you?

    B, you hit it right on the head. Great post.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    You are leaving out that when Tate or Page or Biggs were fighting and losing to Russian or Cuban heavyweights, they were amateurs while the foreign fighters were professionals. They were far more experienced and lived their sport...let's keep perspective...

    I am personally convinced that boxing as a whole is dying in the US as the poor for the most part have far more options than ever before. I am with Merchant 100% when he says American athletes that may be top heavyweights today are playing other sports. In addition, the decline of boxing on TV has lead to less interest , less focus and less follow up by today's youth...

    Think about it, there are almost zero American heavyweights worth looking at on the scene. When has that ever been the case?

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    American’s full of excuses…most American boxing fans realize that the heavyweight division is a joke with what four different fighters calling themselves champion? Let one of the fighters come out on top and I’ll give him the proper credit, but until then all we have is four paper belt holders in a very, very weak heavyweight division…nothing more, nothing less!

    Also, I think that if guys like Erdei, Tiozzo and Adamek would actually start to fight some of the actual top fighters in they’re respective division, then they possibly might get better recognition from the likes of HBO, but as long as guys like Erdei, Woods, Adamek and Tiozzo continue to face the weak opposition that the WBO is renowned for placing in front of they're belt holders then no one is interested...especially big money backer HBO. All those guys are doing is fighting the same stiffs over and over each taking they’re turn beating the same non-ranked fighter and there is nothing bias, or national about it…that’s how it is. I see that Tiozzo will be fighting Garay, who was last seen losing two bouts to Erdei. Erdei will be facing that ever tough TBA, but the opponents he has fought since winning the WBO belt are far from being the elite of the division. Adamek is facing Briggs again, which the first bout they had was really good and entertaining, so that fight should be a good one and Woods, well at least he is going to be facing Johnson again after four relatively easy bouts in a row. Let those guys actually step up and face someone then if they are still getting no recognition then I would say you have something to complain about, but so far they have done nothing to catch my eye, much less catch the eye of big money HBO, or Showtime.

    The reason that HBO are always talking about the Tarver’s, the Hopkins’ and the Taylor’s is simple...these fighters are actually fighting the very best opposition out there whereas guys like Arthur Abraham are content to fight old has-beens, young might-be's and middle never-was's. Abraham made some noise by fighting Ikeke, but then he went off that momentum to face two opponents who are not even ranked in the top ten and the same thing can be said of Erdei, Adamek, Woods and Tiozzo...who have those guys fought that are truly top ranked contenders? Out of around ten total fights amonst all those mentioned I would be willing to bet that there has only been maybe three that were actually top ten ranked opponents…3 out of 10!

    HBO talks about Hopkins and Taylor why...simple...because they are the true champions of they're division's and they continue to fight and beat the top opposition while other fighters are content to hold on to the paper title belt they won and defend it against the weakest opposition allowable.

    If those guys you mention would start stepping up and facing the very best then they would get the proper recognition, but then again...if they step up and begin to fight the very best they stand a good chance of losing, which is why Tarver, Hopkins and Taylor are talked about…they are not worried about putting everything on the line against the best…they fight the best and as a result they have earned all the praise they get, so why should some other fighter, who really has not really proven much, get the same kind of recognition? Let them earn that recognition and if they are able to do so, then they will get the proper credit, but if they continue to face the relatively weak, un-ranked opposition then there is nothing to praise, except that a probable A-level fighter can beat a B and C-level fighter!



    interesting post and you made some good points but let me counter with arguments....

    you claim that guys like tarver are talked about because they fight the best and the europeans don't and guys like tarver are the true champions...

    interesting how you can be "the best" and not fight any of your fellow champions and he is not fighting the best if he was fighting the best...he would fight adamek etc...
    you say that just because these guys have world belts does not mean they are best and they are fighting bad guys etc...
    well they may fight weak guys often times but hey if tarver has not fought any of them of the 4 champions that means he has not faced 4 of the best guys around...
    so why the double standard?
    and about hbo being interesting lol
    that's the same with the 130 pounds and under when their is an american or mexican champion they will show a billion times but there are many champs from asia who they again pretend don't exist....what's your excuse here?

    good example lets look at the batamweight divison
    wbc hozumi hasagawa(japan)
    wba wladmir sidorenko(soviet blog)
    ibf rafael marquez(mexico
    wbo gonalaz(mexico)

    they never shut about how great marquez is and show a ton of times and gonalaz was on air too to fight washed johnson...but the asian and the euopean are ingored like they are not there...
    the asian guys get treated even worse then the russians...you NEVER see their champions...some of whom have been champions for a very long time
    like masamori tokuyama of japan...
    be honest with yourself hbo has been trying to give a false image of state of boxing for a long time...it's just that alot of people are buying it

    and about the whole soviet fighters were pros fighting amauters that is a good reason but if a russian loses in the pros..you will say ohh the russian style is not good for this or that...
    interesting if an american loses then there is some reason like bad judgeing or experience etc
    if a russian loses then he lost because the american guy was just better...

    and ofcourse taylor is the best guys because they fight the best...what you forgot to say is he fought america's best
    arthur aberaham
    felix strum...there is ofcourse no need to fight them....

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    American’s full of excuses…most American boxing fans realize that the heavyweight division is a joke with what four different fighters calling themselves champion? Let one of the fighters come out on top and I’ll give him the proper credit, but until then all we have is four paper belt holders in a very, very weak heavyweight division…nothing more, nothing less!

    Also, I think that if guys like Erdei, Tiozzo and Adamek would actually start to fight some of the actual top fighters in they’re respective division, then they possibly might get better recognition from the likes of HBO, but as long as guys like Erdei, Woods, Adamek and Tiozzo continue to face the weak opposition that the WBO is renowned for placing in front of they're belt holders then no one is interested...especially big money backer HBO. All those guys are doing is fighting the same stiffs over and over each taking they’re turn beating the same non-ranked fighter and there is nothing bias, or national about it…that’s how it is. I see that Tiozzo will be fighting Garay, who was last seen losing two bouts to Erdei. Erdei will be facing that ever tough TBA, but the opponents he has fought since winning the WBO belt are far from being the elite of the division. Adamek is facing Briggs again, which the first bout they had was really good and entertaining, so that fight should be a good one and Woods, well at least he is going to be facing Johnson again after four relatively easy bouts in a row. Let those guys actually step up and face someone then if they are still getting no recognition then I would say you have something to complain about, but so far they have done nothing to catch my eye, much less catch the eye of big money HBO, or Showtime.

    The reason that HBO are always talking about the Tarver’s, the Hopkins’ and the Taylor’s is simple...these fighters are actually fighting the very best opposition out there whereas guys like Arthur Abraham are content to fight old has-beens, young might-be's and middle never-was's. Abraham made some noise by fighting Ikeke, but then he went off that momentum to face two opponents who are not even ranked in the top ten and the same thing can be said of Erdei, Adamek, Woods and Tiozzo...who have those guys fought that are truly top ranked contenders? Out of around ten total fights amonst all those mentioned I would be willing to bet that there has only been maybe three that were actually top ten ranked opponents…3 out of 10!

    HBO talks about Hopkins and Taylor why...simple...because they are the true champions of they're division's and they continue to fight and beat the top opposition while other fighters are content to hold on to the paper title belt they won and defend it against the weakest opposition allowable.

    If those guys you mention would start stepping up and facing the very best then they would get the proper recognition, but then again...if they step up and begin to fight the very best they stand a good chance of losing, which is why Tarver, Hopkins and Taylor are talked about…they are not worried about putting everything on the line against the best…they fight the best and as a result they have earned all the praise they get, so why should some other fighter, who really has not really proven much, get the same kind of recognition? Let them earn that recognition and if they are able to do so, then they will get the proper credit, but if they continue to face the relatively weak, un-ranked opposition then there is nothing to praise, except that a probable A-level fighter can beat a B and C-level fighter!


    interesting post and you made some good points but let me counter with arguments....

    you claim that guys like tarver are talked about because they fight the best and the europeans don't and guys like tarver are the true champions...

    interesting how you can be "the best" and not fight any of your fellow champions and he is not fighting the best if he was fighting the best...he would fight adamek etc...
    you say that just because these guys have world belts does not mean they are best and they are fighting bad guys etc...
    well they may fight weak guys often times but hey if tarver has not fought any of them of the 4 champions that means he has not faced 4 of the best guys around...
    so why the double standard?
    and about hbo being interesting lol
    that's the same with the 130 pounds and under when their is an american or mexican champion they will show a billion times but there are many champs from asia who they again pretend don't exist....what's your excuse here?

    good example lets look at the batamweight divison
    wbc hozumi hasagawa(japan)
    wba wladmir sidorenko(soviet blog)
    ibf rafael marquez(mexico
    wbo gonalaz(mexico)

    they never shut about how great marquez is and show a ton of times and gonalaz was on air too to fight washed johnson...but the asian and the euopean are ingored like they are not there...
    the asian guys get treated even worse then the russians...you NEVER see their champions...some of whom have been champions for a very long time
    like masamori tokuyama of japan...
    be honest with yourself hbo has been trying to give a false image of state of boxing for a long time...it's just that alot of people are buying it

    and about the whole soviet fighters were pros fighting amauters that is a good reason but if a russian loses in the pros..you will say ohh the russian style is not good for this or that...
    interesting if an american loses then there is some reason like bad judgeing or experience etc
    if a russian loses then he lost because the american guy was just better...

    and ofcourse taylor is the best guys because they fight the best...what you forgot to say is he fought america's best
    arthur aberaham
    felix strum...there is ofcourse no need to fight them....

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    How do you suppose guys like Adamek, Abraham and Woods became belts holders, which is something that needs to cleared up immediately...they are not champions...just belt holders...but back to my response, the way that those guys became champs is when they’re certain belt stripped the man who beat the man, stripped him why...because he chose to fight the best competition instead of facing who the alphabet soup named number one. Go look it up...Hopkins unified the titles and he never lost the IBF title in the ring, which is the belt that Abraham has and the exact same thing can be said of Adamek and Woods.

    Roy Jones unified the division and Tarver beat him, lost to Johnson, beat Johnson again and then lost to Hopkins...at no time did he ever lose to Woods, or Adamek...and just because they won a stripped title by fighting the fifth, or sixth, ranked fighter at that weight it most certainly does not automatically rank the winner number one contender just because they won a belt that should not have been stripped to start with...hell sometimes they do not even fight a top ten ranked fighter to win the paper title, which can easily be argued with Abraham as he beat Ikeke for the vacant IBF title and where was Ikeke ranked in an overall middleweight ranking...top ten...maybe right at ten and as far as that goes Abraham was right around number ten as well, so sorry, but winning a paper title against a fighter ranked even lower does not move a fighter up the rankings!

    The exact same thing can be said of Woods and Adamek...who did Woods beat to get the paper IBF belt...Rico Hoye, another who would be lucky to be ranked number ten and who did Adamek beat, Paul Briggs, which Briggs was higher ranked than Adamek, so he did move up in the ratings, but winning the paper WBC title does not make one the top contender...for that he would have to fight and beat the men that already hold that position! No when I say "true" champion, I mean "true" champion and not a paper title holder that won the title that was stripped from the champion that I am speaking of! As I said, let those fighters earn top ranking and I will praise them just as I do any other fighter, but I’m most certainly not going to elevate they’re status based on fighting and beating competition that is inferior to them…let them fight and beat the best then they will have earned the praise, which right now they haven’t!

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Antonio Tarver fought, in succession: Lincoln Carter, Chris Johnson, Reggie Johnson, Eric Harding, Montell Griffin, Roy Jones, Glen Johnson and Bernard Hopkins!

    Adamek (who's a decent fighter, by the way) fought no one who could be considered to have a winning record until he fought Paul Briggs for the WBC title. He has been inactive since beating the respectable Thomas Ulrich. Why should people be mentioning him?

    I understand your frustration, but European fighters are comfortable in Europe and won't make a dent in the USA unless they make an effort to do so! Look at what they did to Felix Sturm.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by 10i01
    actually i thought it was an early stoppage. damn, rock was leading going intot he 12th, he was gassed alittle bit and went down - jae nady stopped the fight..wtf

    i was actually furious, same with richard steele..damn i think r steel should be banned from boxing for ridiculous stoppages
    Actually, Maskaev was ahead on two of the cards going into the final round. All he had to do was finish the fight in a nice, careful way with Rahman too exhausted to rally, and he would have had the title by split decision. Instead -- and unlike mooks like Brian Viloria --, Maskaev went for it. Rahman took some real punishment in the twelfth, certainly enough to justify the stoppage when, with a 10-8 Maskaev round due to the knockdown, he was going to lose by decision. In my opinion, Nady did his dead level best to assure that Hasim held onto his championship, including letting the last round go a bit long, so Oleg's victory shouldn't be tainted by "quick thumb" charges. PeteLeo.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    If you watched Rahman stumbling across the ring in protest right after the stoppage, you'll know it was a good stoppage. He had no tightness in his movements after the middle rounds and Oleg remained his same awkward self throughout.

    Evander "Captain America" Holyfield vs Oleg "Proud Russian-American" Maskaev anyone? I kid, I kid...

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    How do you suppose guys like Adamek, Abraham and Woods became belts holders, which is something that needs to cleared up immediately...they are not champions...just belt holders...but back to my response, the way that those guys became champs is when they’re certain belt stripped the man who beat the man, stripped him why...because he chose to fight the best competition instead of facing who the alphabet soup named number one. Go look it up...Hopkins unified the titles and he never lost the IBF title in the ring, which is the belt that Abraham has and the exact same thing can be said of Adamek and Woods.

    Roy Jones unified the division and Tarver beat him, lost to Johnson, beat Johnson again and then lost to Hopkins...at no time did he ever lose to Woods, or Adamek...and just because they won a stripped title by fighting the fifth, or sixth, ranked fighter at that weight it most certainly does not automatically rank the winner number one contender just because they won a belt that should not have been stripped to start with...hell sometimes they do not even fight a top ten ranked fighter to win the paper title, which can easily be argued with Abraham as he beat Ikeke for the vacant IBF title and where was Ikeke ranked in an overall middleweight ranking...top ten...maybe right at ten and as far as that goes Abraham was right around number ten as well, so sorry, but winning a paper title against a fighter ranked even lower does not move a fighter up the rankings!

    The exact same thing can be said of Woods and Adamek...who did Woods beat to get the paper IBF belt...Rico Hoye, another who would be lucky to be ranked number ten and who did Adamek beat, Paul Briggs, which Briggs was higher ranked than Adamek, so he did move up in the ratings, but winning the paper WBC title does not make one the top contender...for that he would have to fight and beat the men that already hold that position! No when I say "true" champion, I mean "true" champion and not a paper title holder that won the title that was stripped from the champion that I am speaking of! As I said, let those fighters earn top ranking and I will praise them just as I do any other fighter, but I’m most certainly not going to elevate they’re status based on fighting and beating competition that is inferior to them…let them fight and beat the best then they will have earned the praise, which right now they haven’t!


    ok lets clear this little thing about not fighting the guys that the wbc or whatever ranks and instead fighting the big names...

    your saying that these european guys are not champions or even high ranked guys despite world crowns come on be serious...
    so everytime one these "true linear" champs decides hey i am goin to high glen johnson for the 9th name, the european guys should be over looked....

    if it was for the alfabet rankings which often suck, these non americans would NEVER get shots period...

    and another thought...have you though that maybe guys like tarver or taylor gave up crowns not to fight guys like arthur aberaham...that they are DUCKING these guys because they know they will get away because the american fans will buy anything hbo sells to them...


    on another point you say that hey guys just stay in europe and they should go to america to prove themselfs...

    lets reverse this why don't american guys go to europe to prove themselfs...
    all i know is that roy jones,taylor,de la hoya...have never fought outside the usa...even though they often make alot of money fighting in europe etc
    but one says a thing about it but no one would shut about guys like daruisz m. always fighting in germany...nice double standard

    and if you check the track record of americans who go and fight these guys in europe...they usually lose...
    but ofcourse american fans declare that it was robbery without even seeing the fight....

    this is not 1951...to be world champion does not mean american champion...

    world champ means global not usa-las vegas champ
    and any ranking list will show that

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    I'm European. Americans don't go to Europe because they don't have to! WHY should they go? European fighters do get noticed if they score a marquee win, but if they fail to build on this win, they'll fail to gain recognition. Abrahams has good wins over Eastman and Ikeke, but even if he were an American title-holder that wouldn't automatically mean recognition. He'd just be someone the hard-core fans would look at as a good contender, just like most in the know consider Abrahams now. Is there a certain stigma attached to European fighters? Yes. But only because they most often follow true to form and fight safe fights in Europe.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    I feel that the lack of boxing clubs putting on regular boxing shows
    has had a huge influence on the low number of Americans becoming
    professional boxers. The tremendous decline in the number of boxing
    clubs started with the advent of television in the United States.
    Of course, there were a lot of boxing fans watching the fights on
    television at home rather than going down to the local fight club
    (if it still existed).

    My point is that there would be many more American professional
    boxers if they could get bouts on a regular basis, even under
    the present conditions. The lack of boxers that caused the
    demise of fight clubs, it was the decreasing number of fans going
    out to see the shows in person. Yes, I know that societal changes
    played an important part in the low number of American professional
    boxers, but there is plenty of poverty in the United States at the
    present time.

    - Chuck Johnston
    Last edited by Chuck1052; 08-13-2006 at 05:25 PM.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Great thought provoking post, I have always believed that if athletes were given a chance to compete some would have failed, some would have succeeded but the truly great would have risen to the top, and we probably would have seen some extraordinary things. That goes for the Negro Leagues, as well as the communist boxers. The sad thing is we will never know the great things we might have witness and this is why not allowing people to compete because of stupid ideology cheats us all.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    >>>world champ means global not usa-las vegas champ and any ranking list will show that<<<

    No, world champ means fighting and beating the very best opponents out there and a fighter does not become a top opponent on the basis of continuously beating up on second and third rate opposition. A paper title is not relegated to Europe and oversea'sd...there are American's that are nothing but paper title holders as well, Floyd Mayweather for example, pound for pound of the best, but he is a paper title holder at welterweight while the non-USA fighter Carlos Baldomir is the "true" champion, but Mayweather is next fighting Baldomir, like the true top fighters are suppose to do, so you see, it is not just about praising American fighters and ignoring various other fighters...it's about praising fighters that have actually earned the praise, which none of the fighters you mentioned have done to date...now they may in the future, but if I were a betting man, I would bet that Abraham, Tiozzo and Adamek will all three be very content to stay in they're hometown's and fight barely legit opposition in defense of the bogus titles they hold. Now I hope I am wrong about that because I wopuld really like to see what these guys can actually do in the ring, but history has painted it different as a European stated himself in this thread. That can always change, but that is entirely on the fighter to do so. It's not about bias, well in some cases it is, but for those that actually watch boxing that are in the "know" it's all about the fighters who fight the best to prove that they are the best...not to prove that they can beat the hell out of b and c-level opponents on a steady basis!

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    So, let me get this straight.

    Taylor might of been ducking Abraham, and instead decided to fight Hopkins twice? Who if you didn't know, cleared a division out for many years, and then right after that, took on Winky, who some call the best middleweight fighter there is, and perhaps the one guy who might be the best in 2 divisions at that weight. Ducking? Come on, be serious.

    Maybe I'm confused, but when you talk about the BEST fighters in a divison, Abraham nor Sturm (Who mind you, just lost in Europe.. To a guy who never beat any top-tier fighter in the US. Maybe I'm missing somthing here.) never come up in any coversation. Most people know Sturm for the De La Hoya mess that was a questionable descision. Other then that, tell me what Sturm has done to deserve anything to be called one of the best in boxing today? Much less earn a shot at any big name fighter, or multi-million dollar deal.

    It's not excuses bud, it's reality. American fighters can stay in America, where boxing while seems corrupt at times, also flourishes. Where these guys can make millions upon millions, where the money is huge, and the recoginition is ever bigger.

    Tell these guys to pay attention to the road Ricky Hatton is taking to the promise land. You have to earn it, not expect it to be given to you. Or, you just must seem to forget, boxing is driven by MONEY. I can't stress it enough, MONEY. These european fighters can't offer the kind of money that these fighters think is worth the time spent. While I agree about what HBO is doing, and the fact that yes, these fighters who call themselves the best, should fight the best. But then again, the fighters your talking about from Europe, aren't the best. So, maybe this whole discussion is just pointless.
    Last edited by Kurant; 08-14-2006 at 02:51 AM.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by HE Grant
    You are leaving out that when Tate or Page or Biggs were fighting and losing to Russian or Cuban heavyweights, they were amateurs while the foreign fighters were professionals. They were far more experienced and lived their sport...let's keep perspective...

    I am personally convinced that boxing as a whole is dying in the US as the poor for the most part have far more options than ever before. I am with Merchant 100% when he says American athletes that may be top heavyweights today are playing other sports. In addition, the decline of boxing on TV has lead to less interest , less focus and less follow up by today's youth...

    Think about it, there are almost zero American heavyweights worth looking at on the scene. When has that ever been the case?

    I'm in total agreement with this statement.If boxing dosen't market itself more to and get back the casual fan base it had until the 90's rolled around then the sport will continue to get weaker and weaker.Boxing in America needs to do something BIG and soon on the marketing front like free network primetime and weekend boxing specials like we had in the 70's and 80's.We can have all the shows like The Contender,fights on ESPN,OLN etc.etc. but until then the general public will have no reason to care.20 years ago I never would have envisioned boxing in America so weak.I've even fallen victim to not caring too much about the current product save a few fights.That makes me sad.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    im serious, nade was quick to stop that fight. rock was actually resting a little bit, kinda like chico spitting out his mouthpiece out in corrales 1.

    also whats the deal with nady shouting, yelling cutting off rocks momentum with that tape stuff...im sick of nady, he cost rockman the belt

    james toney would toy wit maskaev

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    There is a different side of the coin to all this---if you send away for fights you can watch the development of these guys. It takes a long time before they become popular in America for sure. But I can say it was worthwhile getting all those early dariusz fights/lennox lewis/hamed/both klitschko's/etc.
    And, to me anyway, I''m convinced they have a tougher road to hoe and it serves them well in the future as compared to thier american counterparts who are typically terrible road warriors. I cannot think of an american fighter off the top of my head that has taken the hard road of a kostya tszyu.

    It definately takes some effort and you do get guys that never do crack the american popularity thing like say, ottke and galaxy. Then again, you have guys like fenech that do become popular and you've seen their development. It goes back to the television choices where the networks won't buy a foreign bout and will just replay the drek they usually show time and time again.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    Roy Jones unified the division and Tarver beat him, lost to Johnson, beat Johnson again and then lost to Hopkins...at no time did he ever lose to Woods, or Adamek...and just because they won a stripped title by fighting the fifth, or sixth, ranked fighter at that weight it most certainly does not automatically rank the winner number one contender just because they won a belt that should not have been stripped to start with...
    This sums up the Gods honest string of events in the light heavy division. This is why Hopkins is recognised as champ & these other chumps are not (yet).

    Clinton Woods... as a Brit let me point out that i was disgusted this guy had 3 world title fights & lost all 3 yet STILL was #1 contender when the boxing world wanted Johnson & Tarver to unify the titles. Looks like locking up Bob Lee didnt clean up the IBFs crooked act.

    Until these no marks stop hiding out in their backyard they will continue to be ignored. Boxingman you are seriously avoiding the facts & how these "champions" came into existence.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    Roy Jones unified the division and Tarver beat him, lost to Johnson, beat Johnson again and then lost to Hopkins...at no time did he ever lose to Woods, or Adamek...and just because they won a stripped title by fighting the fifth, or sixth, ranked fighter at that weight it most certainly does not automatically rank the winner number one contender just because they won a belt that should not have been stripped to start with...
    This sums up the Gods honest string of events in the light heavy division. This is why Hopkins is recognised as champ & these other chumps are not (yet).

    Clinton Woods... as a Brit let me point out that i was disgusted this guy had 3 world title fights & lost all 3 yet STILL was #1 contender when the boxing world wanted Johnson & Tarver to unify the titles. Looks like locking up Bob Lee didnt clean up the IBFs crooked act.

    Until these no marks stop hiding out in their backyard they will continue to be ignored. Boxingman you are seriously avoiding the facts & how these "champions" came into existence.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Someone mentioned that you can send away and watch the building of certain fighters, which is true. I have watched all the fighters in question, not they're building process, but they're top fights to date. Abraham has looked impressive, but again, as I said prior, he has looked impressive against almost entirely inferior opposition. I'm really interested to see him against a top fighter, which I don't consider Edison Miranda to be that fighter as he is taylor made for a fighter with solid skills as he is about power and power alone and power alone will rarely get the job done...especially against top fighters. Adamek looked really good against Briggs, but as someone else pointed out, what did Adamek and Briggs do to deserve a title shot? Well, it seems to me that they bided they're time until one of the shitty alphabet boys stripped the actual champion and then they stepped in instead of fighting they're way up the rankings. Woods, well his record speaks for itself...against the elite of the division he lost in title bids and bided time until he was put up against Rico Hoye for the vacant belt.

    Joe Calzaghe could have really made a statement after the Lacy win if he would have went against Kessler, or Beyer, but instead he has decided to take the route that he has in the past and has chose to face the ever tough TBA while Kessler and Beyer has decided to face each other. Now maybe Calzaghe is waiting for the winner of that bout, but Kessler called him out time and again, so if Kessler beats Beyer I really have doubts that Calzaghe will face Kessler. Now has Calzaghe earned praise...yes...to a certain extent by dominating Lacy, but instead of following up on that he has fallen right back into his normal routine and for that his rep will suffer and rightly so because as we have seen fighting Mario Veit again proves absolutely nothing!

    I just would like to see these guys step up and stay up and if they do then I will gladly praise them as I do the likes of Ricky Hatton, or other non-American fighters like Rafael Marquez and the many other Mexican fighters that have stepped up, or Pacquiao, or Baldomir...guys that have not just stepped up, but they have done so and continued to win, which that is the purpose...become champion and defend that title against the best available competition...and fighter who does that will get respect and praise regardless of where they live in the world!

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by 10i01
    im serious, nade was quick to stop that fight. rock was actually resting a little bit, kinda like chico spitting out his mouthpiece out in corrales 1.

    also whats the deal with nady shouting, yelling cutting off rocks momentum with that tape stuff...im sick of nady, he cost rockman the belt

    james toney would toy wit maskaev
    Okay, whatever you say, pal. I guess you don't argue with a colorblind man whether the light says stop or go. PeteLeo.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    many of you have made excellent points about alot of the euro champions getting tittle shots and becomeing champion and then keeping them without fight the best...
    again someone mentioned felix strum and how he lost his last fight..which by the way he was winning easy...
    the thing is if these so called paper champs fight does it count as great wins like
    strum when he beat ex wbo king Bert Schenk...


    and people talk about how aberaham or erdei or whatever did not deserve their title shots...but i will ask did jermaine taylor deserve to fight hopkins...
    he did prove his worthness in those fights but what i am asking is
    did he deserve to get the title shot...
    he much like those euro guys was fed smaller and past their fighters to make him look good
    he did not fight the top guys...so how did he deserve the shot?
    howard eastman,soliman,strum etc he never really fought one top 10 before getting his shot...
    he did feast on past their prime small guys like marquez etc...


    i enjoy this argument but haveing boxed for years...
    i really HATE...when people call any world class guy a chump or a bum...
    this is very rude...before you say crap like that...why don't you step in a ring and spar a guy with 6 mouths experience and you will find out who the chump is...
    anyone who is in the top 30 or any weight class is an AMAZING boxer...if you think of all the stages the guy has to go through to get there...from locally in the amauters to etc...

    also alot of people seem to be avoiding my 2nd argument..when we see the lighter weightclasses...all the media gives us are mexicans...
    but their asian fellow champion are never shown and even the most hardcore fans have no idea who they are....
    like the long time champion at 115 tokuyama is never talked about
    but ofcourse the latino montiel is a new champ here...has been shown quite a few times on tv...

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    The bottom line is economic prosperity. More potential American fighters are finding easier exits from the ghettos, slums, and projects through school, education, grants, and scholarships and work programs. Why take punches for a living when you can sit behind a desk or get a hefty paycheck making cars, microchips, or trading on Wall Street?

    If you want to call it "excuses" that's fine. The fact is boxing has been a poor man's sport since the 1800's...a man's way out of poverty to a better life. Not since James Figg's days has "boxing" been the sport of kings, where the blue bloods learned the manly art of self defense alongside fencing and such.

    Americans, as a whole, have become soft. Children no longer gather in backyards playing tackle football or baseball or even meet in driveways to toss the rock around, to say nothing of kill the man with the ball.....they're too busy playing their playstations and being ignored by parents who either both work so they can keep up with the Jones and pay for all of their possessions they can't affford or are separated and hardly see them at all.

    Americans were hungry to be the best at one time; but now are comfortable being couch potatoes, expectant of all of their needs coming to them. The idea of working or fighting for something you believe is all but passe'. It's about convenience and what's easiest. Boxing is anything but easy. Only a man with a fire inside to prove himself the baddest man on the planet is going to get into a boxing ring.

    Also, there's the whole castration of American men by the kinder, gentler, sensitve sorts, who would have boys in school not have violent fantasies, aka playing war and such because that leads down the road to abuse and self-destruction. America has damn near PC'ed itself to death and given birth to a generation of accepted sissies....(not in the "gay" sense).

    There was a time if you had an issue with a guy, taking it outside was an accepted way to settle it....now, that's five years in jail and being branded with title "thug" or "backwards" or "neanderthal" or "barbaric". It was these expressions of quasi-controlled violence from which American boxing was bred. Take that away and it's essentially the same thing as making a bull a steer and expecting him to breed. You cut of the "spirit" supply, and eventually, the whole body dies.

    Excuse or Evolution (of sorts). Call it what you will. That's how I see it.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    I was dissapointed you didn't keep it going, K-DOGG. Nice piece of writing, agreed with everything you said.

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    Re: STOP..american boxing excuses

    amaericans have one thing going for them in boxing--arrogance--as well as other sports--so do udereducated americans re. race and combat sports--ignorance and ARROGANCE has cought up--and hunger is left behing--a triple cheeseburger please???

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    Mexal

    Thank you; but I didn't want to beat a dead horse even further into the ground. Nothing's new....it's all about excess. Every boxing fan knows that quality that separtates the good from the great is more than just skill...it's the hunger, the desire, the fire within.

    All too often I tried stressing this point when the question of why Black athletes were dominating the sport and why White athletes were substandard more often than not. Every one of my peers kept using the whole "evolution" and pseudo-scietific explanation that Blacks were just physically superior to Whites...which is essentially hogwash. There may be subtle differences based on our ancestory; but for evey minus, there is a plus....one race might be categorically better at one thing; but invariably will be not as good in another area, dependent upon what asset was strenghtened for survival thousands of years ago. In the end, it all balances out and the thing that separtates two men in the prize ring, is "want-to".

    You've got to want to kick that other guy's ass and not take no for an answer. Sooner or later, somebody's will get's broken in the closest of battles. Sure, training is important, physical gifts help tremendously; but if all things are equal, if the skill level and physical gifts are on par, the deciding factor is how much one guy wants it versus how much the other guy wants it. How can a pampered atlete "want it" as much as a guy fighting for his very survival, for food on the table?

    Athletes in the Soviet Union may have been "pampered" to an extent; but nothing compared to the way they were pampered in the U.S. Communism just fell a mere 17 years ago, when the current crop of heavyweight champions were in their early teens.....they saw communism, they knew what it was like to struggle to get by because they saw their parents and peers do it. Now, they have the opportunity that none of the previous generations of Soviet Athletes had....the chance to become millionaires.

    This "X-Factor" can't be stated enough to my way of thinking. America has been an affluent, self-absorbing society, gradually picking up on "the good life" since the baby-boomers returned from WWII. We are a society of consumers. By and large, our children's biggest worries are how "cool" they are among their peers in school. They worry about social acceptance where their grandparents were lucky if they could complete the 12th grade because they had to quit school early to help the family put food on the table. The current generation of Americans has no grasp of this concept. Think of young Joe Frazier in Beaufort, SC hitched behind a mule from sunrise to sunset and compare that life to that of today's 12 year old......Somebody please Tell me that doesn't make a difference in character developement!

    Hard Times breed Hard Men. Conversely, Easy Times....well, you get the idea. Is everyone in American rich? No; but overall we are better off as a society as I stated in my previous post. For every step forward, you lose something. Just as we would have more difficulty surviving an ice age without our modern conveniences as compared to the primitive Neanderthal, modern American youths have equal trouble finding the desire to get in a boxing ring and take punishment in order to give it. By and large, not enough modern Americans have ever had to deal with the kind of life Jack Dempsey did hopping trains....not even close. How can we ask a softer society to produce champions of equal or superiour calibre to those who came before who were bred in the harshest of times by comparison to even today's ghettos?

    Very simply put, we can't.

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