Liston-Dempsey

[JLP 6]

Great match-up. Probably and all-time stare down. Honestly, I have never thought of Dempsey as much of a swarmer. He swarmed Willard because he had him hurt and did not want to let him up.

Dempsey is a boxer-puncher. If Jack did not hit hard, he still would have been great. Slipped and ducked shots, rolled his shoulders, and stayed on his toes. The first time you watched the Willard bout you are a lying ass if, you expected Jack to be dancing around looking for angles. However he did hit hard as hell and was fast as hell.

Liston was sweet to me. Jab first and would use that if that is all it took. Not much head movement, but he really did not need it. Enter at you own risk. Liston was like a heavyweight Arguello. Every friggin' punch in the book and knew when to throw them. Possibly the hardest puncher heavyweights have ever seen. In any case not much separates his and Foreman power except the way it was delivered. On and silver dish: Liston, or shoved down your throat: Foreman.

Now, I feel Liston controlls the pace from the out set. Jack will weave in and out looking for a opening. Maybe he connects with something early but rarely. Liston is getting good range with the jab.

I feel they good about five rounds like this until Jack takes and huge risk, gives as good as he get, then gets KO'ed. I know Jack can out work Liston, but, I don't see it.

Liston in 8.

[Colin Maclaurin]

Sonny is a powerful/tough sob so i wouldn't write him off.

i like dempsey who had big advantages in terms of handspeed, infighting, and defense.

i think dempsey would be too quick for sonny to consistently plant his jab on.

sonny quits on his stool after 10 tough rounds.

[apollack]

I say this is a pickem and a very interesting matchup. Keep in mind Sonny only had trouble with boxers who could stick and move. If you stayed in his range, Sonny was murder. That said, Dempsey was a phenomenal infighter. But then, Sonny was so huge and strong and could throw all the punches hard, including the jab. Would have to see it to truly know. I actually give a slight edge to Sonny, but who knows.

[PeteLeo]

I don't think Sonny would land that jab -- the ignition to his entire arsenal -- very much against a prime Dempsey (not the one who fought Tunney).

Think of what Marty Marshall would have done to Liston if he'd had Earnie Shavers-level power. Dempsey did. PeteLeo.

[Elmer Ray]

Think of what Marty Marshall would have done to Liston if he'd had Earnie Shavers-level power. Dempsey did. PeteLeo.

awww come on pete, both you and i know marshall fought a horribly green sonny liston. it was listons 7th pro bout! not to mention liston destroyed marshall in the rematches


i could turn it around using your logic and say think of what luis firpo would have done to dempsey if he'd had earnie shavers level power. liston did.


no need to critisize a fighter for what happened when they were not at there best. listons prime was 1958-62 not 1954. just like jack dempseys prime was 1918-23 not his early hobo days in 1913-16



were comparing the 1958 sonny liston vs the 1919 jack dempsey

[PeteLeo]

I was using Marshall more from a size standpoint (former light-heavy). I would hardly say that Liston crushed him thereafter, being decked by Marty in the rematch and going the distance for a UD in the rubber bout.

If you'd rather, let's ask what would Bert Whitehurst (another former light-heavy, 190-192 lbs. in two DECISION losses to Liston in '58) have done to Sonny if he'd had Shavers-level power? "Little" guys went rounds with Sonny, contrary to the ever-expanding mythology surrounding this cheater/quitter who never won a really tough bout in his life. Sonny would have a three or so inch reach advantage over Dempsey, though the heights were roughly the same, and he would be at a clear disadvanatge in footspeed and mobility against the Willard-era Dempsey. Sonny had the power to take out Dempsey with the right shots, because he had the power to take out most anyone with the right shots. But Dempsey clearly had the explosiveness to KTFO a Liston who was dropped by Marshall (I've heard all of the excuses for this embarrassment) and who was KTFO by Martin. If he thought Ali's "Anchor punch" was a bitch, let him sample a hook like the one that shattered Willard's face as if it were aged china.
I'm not going to dive back into a big magilla about Liston and his "greatness" or "lameness," because that's all been said recently and in capital letters (Liston incites emotions far in excess of the level befitting his actual accomplishments), so I'll just say that we can only go by what he did and what was done to him in the ring. It doesn't matter how monstrous he looked while hitting the bag or how many fellow cons he devastated while in the pen. He was taken the distance by men he should have walked over and he -- IN MY OPINION -- blatantly cheated when the going got rough and quit like a dog when cheating didn't work (or when the bets were all safely down, depending upon which storyline you're following). Taken as a whole, I can see the road warrior wolfman Dempsey of the 1918-1922 era taking it to Sonny the way that Williams did the first time around, only with a much better chin and a far better gameplan, and kicking his ass.
Of course, I can also envision Liston coming up with just the right combo . . . . Pete "the Waffling" Leo.

[jim]

dempsey comes under the jabs to the body--backs him up--takes him out in a real fight. sonny was too slow of fist and too ponderous for the lightning quick dempsey. 5 rounds at most for dempsey--dempsey once was quoted--those big tough guys like liston can be beat. id like to see a boxer like tunney or a puncher like louis in their with liston. what they could do , dempsey would do better.dempsey tougher man also.

[jim]

I was using Marshall more from a size standpoint (former light-heavy). I would hardly say that Liston crushed him thereafter, being decked by Marty in the rematch and going the distance for a UD in the rubber bout.

If you'd rather, let's ask what would Bert Whitehurst (another former light-heavy, 190-192 lbs. in two DECISION losses to Liston in '58) have done to Sonny if he'd had Shavers-level power? "Little" guys went rounds with Sonny, contrary to the ever-expanding mythology surrounding this cheater/quitter who never won a really tough bout in his life. Sonny would have a three or so inch reach advantage over Dempsey, though the heights were roughly the same, and he would be at a clear disadvanatge in footspeed and mobility against the Willard-era Dempsey. Sonny had the power to take out Dempsey with the right shots, because he had the power to take out most anyone with the right shots. But Dempsey clearly had the explosiveness to KTFO a Liston who was dropped by Marshall (I've heard all of the excuses for this embarrassment) and who was KTFO by Martin. If he thought Ali's "Anchor punch" was a bitch, let him sample a hook like the one that shattered Willard's face as if it were aged china.
I'm not going to dive back into a big magilla about Liston and his "greatness" or "lameness," because that's all been said recently and in capital letters (Liston incites emotions far in excess of the level befitting his actual accomplishments), so I'll just say that we can only go by what he did and what was done to him in the ring. It doesn't matter how monstrous he looked while hitting the bag or how many fellow cons he devastated while in the pen. He was taken the distance by men he should have walked over and he -- IN MY OPINION -- blatantly cheated when the going got rough and quit like a dog when cheating didn't work (or when the bets were all safely down, depending upon which storyline you're following). Taken as a whole, I can see the road warrior wolfman Dempsey of the 1918-1922 era taking it to Sonny the way that Williams did the first time around, only with a much better chin and a far better gameplan, and kicking his ass.
Of course, I can also envision Liston coming up with just the right combo . . . . Pete "the Waffling" Leo.

pete was way on target ,imo.the tougher,faster, boneshaterring beast of dempsey may have walked trough big, not so tough, and heart of a pea--liston.

[rocky111]

wow what a match up!
Dempsey is so great and such a force, that he takes the advantages away from his foes. But Sonny Liston had so much going for him at his best. Two fisted power and one hell of a chin. He also had the boxing style of a classic order so that even if you swarmed over him, youd better not be open cause Sonny Liston threw correct punches. He would nail you.
I cant pick no winner.................................I love both guys and they are two of the greatest.
Dempsey had the mental edge, but then did he? Sonny never had the chance to show what he could do under pressure (the Ali things were fixed IMO) but he didnt fold against Clev Williams or Mikie DeJohn when nailed. He was no punk.
what a match up!

[mike]

more i think of it -the records, the styles , the warriors --the more i think its another tough stand up but damn good fighter going to his knees against a guy who was as ggood as can be in doing so. brave or not ,liston hits the canvas hard after a good--but not terricfic fight.

[mike]

whatever advantage is held mentally--its no contest--with all due respect--to dempsey. any military psche can tell the differance from a man "devoid of fear and able to accompish any mission withou anxiety" as opposed to a soldier- "very brave under presure but can acquiese to situational danger and stress." is the difference of a soldier whom will never break under torture and treat as to one -who may "acquiese". fearless soldires neber acqiuese to pressure, danger, torture, anything outdide combat goals. others--mostly but not "truly" fearless--in that once throughly frightened a fearless soldier becomes-he is almost also impossible to panic--others with extreme bravery- can and will panic. liston acquieseted to money and or mob whatever. dempsey - the fearless chanlenge monger-death was part of the changle--being talented , fearless, and goal orientated-- wits, couage, changelenge to a goal --say defending his title--meant everything. for those whom have not been in combat--some of this is pschobable --to others--its just the way some soldiers and some boxers - were. liston has to have a truly physical win in this one had dempsey been in the military--he probaly have made a great special forces officer. liston a damn good soldier. but--the is a difference--any ex combat soldiers around here.?

[mike]

did dempsey ever complain of the pressures of the first million dollar gate, the main attraction of the first man to be seen by more than 100,000 men ,in person in sports--he never mebtioned it--nor would he --anxiety and stress outside of the main goal--to win--meant nothing to him--a waltz in the hobo jungle--in the midst of chaos and violence and death--these creatures perform better than ever. thanks

[Sharkey]

If Liston can plant his jab on Dempsey, he will win within the distance. That said, I don't think he would be able to avoid being hit more often than he hit Jack. Sonny begins landing that hook because Dempsey is avoiding the jab and Dempsey is in deep trouble.

I see Dempsey able to tie Sonny up and survive some very scary moments. Jack's offense will win him this bout, not his boxing skills or power isolated into one or the other. Liston will come out trying to manuever Dempsey into a corner through physical presence...and Dempsey will thank Sonny for not trying to jab him into one.

Dempsey's ability to slip some of Liston's long punches will enable him to get inside to recoup and to score in clinches and with short punches.

I am not certain that Sonny could settle in and box his way to a win, because I believe Dempsey will continue to come in and out. Liston is one of few heavyweights I feel matches up well with Dempsey. Sonny was not a man who wasted a ton of punches, and his left hook rivals (some may say surpasses) Jack's own, and Liston has formidable right hand power as well. As a frontrunner, he was hard to find a match for.

Dempsey had the little engine in him that produced big-time energy. Sonny may view him as a Floyd Patterson, with the movement and crouching and springing.. but Jack was with Joe Louis the best short punching heavyweight with two hands ever. This tips it against a man in Sonny Liston that will see himself as the aggressor. Sonny jabs as his sole scoring angle, he will be countered. His play is to follow up with the thud. Even then I see Jack elusive enough to diffuse enough power shots to generate his own offense. If Sonny has to play defense and react, he loses the fight. I think he will, and he will.

[Mr E]

I think mike, jim and pete are right on the money. Machen and Whitehurst were not overwhelmed by Liston's strength and I bet Dempsey was a good deal stronger than either one of them. I think Jack, not Sonny, would have been the puncher in this matchup and I think he could have gone toe-to-toe w/ Sonny and come out ahead. Not that he'd have had to-- Dempsey was too quick by half. I see him slipping the jab consistently beating Sonny to the punch inside. And like a few others here, and apologies to rocky, I see Sonny's heart giving out. No mas.


Dempsey TKO8.

[hagler04]

I understand all of the arguments for Dempsey in this matchup.

But my money is on Sonny.

Dempsey was a tough SOB but not immune to getting hurt. I don't see Jack going toe-to-toe with the genetic freak that was Liston and going out on top. Some on this board have allowed the myth-making on Dempsey's part to go a little far. Liston went the distance with Marshall and Whitehurst? So what? Dempsey struggled with Bill Brennan, a good fighter but please don't tell me Brennan was near the level of Liston. Anyone can always nit-pick at records. What if Whitehurt had Shavers level power? What if Firpo had good boxing skills?

Wait, that sounds a lot like Sonny Liston . . .

Liston TKO 5.

[apollack]

Like I said earlier, although I give Liston a slight edge in this matchup, it is a close one. Valid points that Dempsey had big power, pretty good defensive moves, better heart and condition than Liston. However, Liston was also a huge puncher, much bigger than Dempsey, and definitely more skilled than a raw brawling Firpo.

The guys you all site for giving Sonny trouble were guys who were movers. Whitehurst and Machen boxed and moved, which is exactly why I say the experts underrated Clay's chances to defeat Liston. If quick hands and feet of Machan and Whitehurst could go the distance with Sonny, then a guy with a lot more talent than those guys is definitely live with Sonny.

But getting back to the debate, because of their styles, those examples are not applicable to this matchup. Dempsey would not fight Sonny like any of those guys. He would pretty much meet him head to head and it would be a really fun war. And in those types of fights, you never know until it happens.

In Dempsey's defense, no one beat him in that type of fight. In Liston's defense, no one beat him in that type of fight. So who knows?

[mike]

liston got koed three times--dempsey once in 81 fights. unlkie iiston-never got knock out in sparring., nor decked. dempsey never even scraped the floor in over 160 exhibiton bouts. the big slow guy goes out, fairly quickly--compared to dempsey ,liston is slow motion the way kiltsckos are robotic ,prediticable and slow to liston. good fight until then.

[Mr E]

I understand all of the arguments for Dempsey in this matchup.

But my money is on Sonny.

Dempsey was a tough SOB but not immune to getting hurt. I don't see Jack going toe-to-toe with the genetic freak that was Liston and going out on top. Some on this board have allowed the myth-making on Dempsey's part to go a little far. Liston went the distance with Marshall and Whitehurst? So what? Dempsey struggled with Bill Brennan, a good fighter but please don't tell me Brennan was near the level of Liston. Anyone can always nit-pick at records. What if Whitehurt had Shavers level power? What if Firpo had good boxing skills?

Wait, that sounds a lot like Sonny Liston . . .

Liston TKO 5.

Liston didn't have Shavers level power, IMO. He was a better fighter, obviously, but not as hard a hitter. The myth-building going on seems to me to be more directed toward Sonny Liston than anyone else.

Whatever else you say about KO Bill Brennan, he was obviously a LIGHTS OUT puncher, far superior in that category to anyone Liston ever beat with the exception of Cleveland Williams.

And, have you seen the films of Dempsey-Brennan II? Brennan was damned good. We all know he was mobbed up -- murdered as the result of a double-cross -- and so I wonder: as good as Brennan looked in the Dempsey rematch, how many of his 'losses' were pre-arranged? Could very well be that they finally took the hand-cuffs off him that day in 1920.

[mike]

for some reason-listons aura has grown in the last few years-no way he hit like shavers or dempsey--hell of a talent -but flawed - a real great has not to have a heart question--ever. agree with analysis above. thanks

[10-8]

Liston was an all-time great heavyweight puncher.

Liston was a novice pro when he lost to Marty Marshall. For the next 15 years, Ali was the only fighter to beat him. If you take away the Ali fights, Liston was 43-1 with 37 KO's from the Marshall loss to the end of his career. Those are the numbers of a big puncher.

[Ron Lipton]

I picture all of the Cyberboxingzone guys sitting ringside in Heaven with me and me with them for this fight.

I have a baaad feeling on this one from what I saw in person with Liston on a few occasions.

The Manassa Mauler would come in at 185 and Liston at a muscular 212.

I would love to see Jack take him down and in the analysis would never hold the Jim Flynn KO over Harry at a starving 160lbs in Hobo days, or the Tunney knockdown or the Firpo knockdown against him.

I just don't like to lie to myself, it never works. My heart, my rooting, my cheers would all be for Dempsey, but I think we would be going home very sad that night, very very sad and shocked beyond reparing the rose tinted glasses.

Nothing would be more exciting than to see Jack walking into him twisting and churning, whipping in hooks and overhand rights, and dropping the Big Bear.

Then in the middle of that wish you have to think of Listons big things, fists, hook, right hand and chin and his fights with Mike DeJohn, Williams, Folley,
Nino Valdez and Patterson.

I would hope that Jack would not be totally steamrolled in what Mike Tyson used to call Bolivian.

I would hope Jack would get him in a Homeric slaying of David V Goliath.

I always loved Dempsey but this one gives me a bad feeling.

Despite the fixes, the thug background, the Leotis Martin KO a la Danny Williams and Kevin McBride over Tyson, sometimes the bad guy wins when he is at his best in his youth.

Sad but true, who knows?

[Ron Lipton]

"Then in the middle of that wish you have to think of Listons big THIGHS fists, hook, right hand and chin and his fights with Mike DeJohn, Williams, Folley,
Nino Valdez and Patterson."


Liston had tremendous thighs which were very powerfull, and his legs saved him many times when he was shaken.

Very hard to hurt when he was at his best. He was just so powerful and heavy handed.

This is when both men are at their best!

[newpoppop]

Liston was an all-time great heavyweight puncher.

Liston was a novice pro when he lost to Marty Marshall. For the next 15 years, Ali was the only fighter to beat him. If you take away the Ali fights, Liston was 43-1 with 37 KO's from the Marshall loss to the end of his career. Those are the numbers of a big puncher.

It seems to me that Leotis Martin's KO of Liston makes that record 42-2, not counting Ali.

[mike]

you know when langford said fulton gave him his toughest fight and had a great slam in either hand and when he and dempsey hook up it wont be no school picnic--another slamming stand- up fighter just gets crused. imo only very fast hands with a deadly punch--say a louis--of someong coming in to trade with dempsey--meets a fulton like fate sooner or later. but who knows.

[mike]

liston hit but did not have very fast hands nor moves. there are greats--and then near greats--liston in a class below--liston is ends up as a target here --good guy,bad guy whatever.

[10-8]

It seems to me that Leotis Martin's KO of Liston makes that record 42-2, not counting Ali.

I was talking Liston's career starting from after the Marty Marshall loss until the end of his career.

[PeteLeo]

I was talking Liston's career starting from after the Marty Marshall loss until the end of his career.

Uh . . . okay? Leotis Martin coldcocked Sonny well after Marty Marshall made a goof out of him, so, in deleting the Ali losses, are you also wiping away the fights Sonny won by cheating? PeteLeo.

[hagler04]

Liston didn't have Shavers level power, IMO. He was a better fighter, obviously, but not as hard a hitter. The myth-building going on seems to me to be more directed toward Sonny Liston than anyone else.

Whatever else you say about KO Bill Brennan, he was obviously a LIGHTS OUT puncher, far superior in that category to anyone Liston ever beat with the exception of Cleveland Williams.

And, have you seen the films of Dempsey-Brennan II? Brennan was damned good. We all know he was mobbed up -- murdered as the result of a double-cross -- and so I wonder: as good as Brennan looked in the Dempsey rematch, how many of his 'losses' were pre-arranged? Could very well be that they finally took the hand-cuffs off him that day in 1920.

I wasn't saying Liston hit as hard as Earnie, my rhetorical "which if Whitehurst hit as hard as Shavers was in reference to something Pete had posted. I was saying you could put up those "what ifs" till the cows come home.

Re: The Fulton fight, you honestly think Jack is going to wipe out Liston in 20 seconds? Give me a break. Fulton was not a dense 6'1 Liston, more like a lankier 6'5 Lennox with skills and power for a big man but not very durable. And with that kind of result (of catching someone cold in the first few seconds) you can't take away too much from that result anyway.

Mike-I very much doubt, and have heard stories to the contrary, that Dempsey never got knocked down in sparring. That seems ridiculous. From all we know, George Godfrey (a fighter much closer to Liston than any of Jack's actual opponents) might have kicked the living crap out of Dempsey. Maybe not. All we have is word of mouth and conflicting stories.

I'm with Ron here. You can't stand with Liston and trade toe to toe and come out on top. One more note, people are mentioning Dempsey's speed. And while Jack would no doubt have a speed advantage in this matchup, he was no Ali or Louis in the handspeed department (and even the scribes of the time were no dazzled by his handspeed) In a war, both guys are landing shots.

[Ron Lipton]

I don't care either about "Good guy bad guy or whatever" either.

That's fine.

What I am saying is, you have to really picture these things, I mean really.

I really have seen all of the footage available on Jack, just like anyone else.
I met him and treasure the moments with him and I have seen all the footage available on Liston and then saw him in person train in the gym, fight in person and talked with him.

Fred Fulton's body if you look at the pictures of him says it all doesn't it?
Jess Williard's body says it all back in those days too doesn't it. Both men's arms, back, shoulders etc, even Firpo's.

These men had heart, were wild, and determined but were not iron men like Langord, Fitz, Jeffires and Johnson in their primes.

Jack was a really wonderful specimen at 185 with a great mindset and vicious wild and looping punches.

Liston at his best was a powerhouse that destroyed skilled, big and dangerous heavyweights. As mean as they come in the day.

Folley could box and destroyed Bonavena knocking him down and making him look ridiculous, Liston pounded him into the ground. Patterson was like lightning and came at Liston with fast hard shots in the second fight and got broken in half. Nino Valdez, Cleve Williams were very strong men, tall and powerful and got pulverized in shootouts.

Dempsey's legs were lithe, he was slim and ripped and his left hook was the best but very wide, his right hand was a bit wild and he could not put away a few guys who really were not strong men like Liston.

His fights with plebby guys like Brennan, Gibbons, and Sharkey who fought Jack hard make one wonder what a treetrunk of two handed power and menace with that big jab, heavy hook and crunching right hand with 26" thighs would do to Jack.

I would love to see Dempsey as I said before take him down, why, because I like to see the little guy who is a nice man take down a menacing bully all the time.

What we want is not what we get sometimes, Willie Redish a formidable tough man himself, told me that Sonny was the strongest fighter he had ever seen in his life bar none. In his prime which is what we are talking about, (Cleve Williams, Valdez, DeJohn, Patterson fights) Jack Dempsey at 185 with slim legs, would be up against a baaad hard rock mountain coming at him just like Dempsey would come at him.

Liston was more of a modern fighter who held his hands correctly more of the time, Dempsey would drop his hands, swing wildly, awkward crouches, and his looping body shots left him open to devastating uppercuts.

With an 85 inch reach and the biggest fists and the muscles to use and move them, Sonny would come after Dempsey, come after him fast and bump and throw him off balance, he would jar him with that piston jab on the way in and hurt him much worse than Firpo, Tunney, Sharkey.

He would give him more trouble and I mean right away than all the Gibbons, Brennans and Flynn's put together.

If Sonny walked into a left hook from Jack, do you really believe that jaw of Liston's would let him down so fast that he would be laying there just a farting and a trembling in the resin from one or two shots.

The guy who shook off Cleve Williams like nothing would go through a 185lb man and club him into the canvas.

Pioneer nostalgia is a good thing, loyalty is too, and old heros have their place in various hearts for various reasons.

I for one would give Jack the edge over Johnson at 6 feet 196lbs but not a clear cut thing in my mind. Jack's ferocity V Johnson's skill and power.
I still go with Dempsey there without selling Jack Johnson short in any way.

BUT NOT LISTON! Not good guy v bad guy, but I remember Sonny Liston and brother let me tell you, despite all the mob stuff, both Ali fights, before that he was a freakin monster, a destroyer who shook off pain and came to destroy.

[mike]

agree to disagree. just watced the willams fights--listons high point.s. brute of a man- unfortunately did not translate into the power that deempsey had. look at the talent and impacts -inslow motion-not the build. i get the impression that the films you have are not from the orginal nor first genertation 16mm-of dempsey or jiston-big differnve in proper speed and smothness. but you saw liston. from filmliston had alot of allround talent--but nothing jumps out at me about him--i imagine you would say the same of dempsey.outside of the last minut and half of willard first round--dempsey was more compact in punches.i cannot recall any fighter or said expert whom seen them both perform- think liston would take dempsey. watch some of listons and dempsey bouts in slow motion--i jsut did with liston-willamms both-then do it with dempsey or whomever you enjoy watching. it can bea grind and time consumming--but worth it for me. once done. no way im getting within the same state of liston. but i also see dempsey-without the subjectivey i may picked up over time to take liston in a couple of rounds. watch lwhat happens when both are hurt in slow motion. its all good!!