Tyson / Berbick...

[HE Grant]

I recently rewatched this fight and it only again proved to me what I have written all along. The prime Tyson, Berbick to Spinks, was an exceptional fighter and had a tremendous shot at beating anyone but Ali who happened to have the perfect counter style to him. Watch the conditioning, the focus, the defense, the speed, the power and the determination...such a far cry from what he later deteriorated into...I personally find him to be a very nasty and sorry person...however, as a fighter , in his brief prime, he was exceptional.

[apollack]

Agreed. Thank you for stating the objective truth.

[Colin Maclaurin]

agreed as well...i actually think tyson is becoming underrated these days.

I agree w/evan about tyson vs ali, but i also believe johnson would be equally problematic for iron mike.

[apollack]

Mike Tyson would knock out Jack Johnson. Jack's ability to take it was not that good, which is why he had to develop such defense as he did. If you though Bonecrusher Smith grabbed a lot, just watch a Johnson fight sometime. People like to talk about how Johnson was disliked because of race, but really, there's a lot to dislike about him based on style - he was BORING!

[robertk]

Gee---I didn't know anyone picking berbick to win that fight. As a matter of fact, the only thing anybody I knew liked about Berbick in that matchup was the over, but nobody was picking the guy to win.

And berbick fought the stupidest fight possible by going toe to toe--as if he had ko power himself. He could not have possibly had worse tactics or strategy against an opponent than he picked for Tyson.

At any rate, I don't look at a victory over a Trevor Berbick as an indication of all time greatness or as a barometer for much of anything.

[Overhand_Right]

... Yeah but nobody else ever punched right THROUGH Trevor Berbick in his prime, or in fact, EVER, he fought for another 14 years after the Tyson fight & no one could stop him. The guy was tough & usually very sharp survival instincts.

[HE Grant]

Of course. He manhandled a man who went a tough 15 with Holmes from a physical standpoint, dominated a then undefeated Greg Page, knocked out John Tate and upset Pinklon Thomas...he destroyed Berbick, a very strong, tough guy...

You have to watch Tyson's early title fights ... he moved his head with lightning speed as he worked his way in, often behind a surprisingly tough jab...his strength and speed were amazing...he never threw just one punch, he threw in nasty combinations...he crushed men who were never crushed before...

Watch the Pinklon Thomas fight. Thomas had an iron chin. The first round of that fight is brutal to watch. He beats the shit out of Thomas. It took incredible courage and toughness for Thomas to survive. Instead of unraveling like he would do later in his career if an opponent survived an early onslaught and rallied a bit, Tyson stepped back, kept a steady beating going for a few rounds and flattened Pink in round five with classic knockout shots.

Watch the Holmes fight. Of course Larry was old and inactive but the point is that he was still a big, difficult to hit target for a few rounds. Tyson did not panic or fall apart. He stalked his prey and flatttened him. The Biggs fight is another example. Mike broke him down mentally and physically over seven rounds.

Watch the Smith and Tucker fights. These were huge, very strong punching men. Tucker was especially talented. He would definately be champ today. Tyson simply broke their wills. These men fought defensive , survival fights because they knew once they engaged him they would be knocked out.

Talk about heart and the ability to take a punch. Tyson was blasted in the first Bruno fight in round one and came roaring back. The same in the first Tucker fight. He did not quit or fall apart. He was a warrior. Even when his slide was deep and he lost to Douglas he took a tremendous beating, he did not quit on his stool. He took the beating, a bad one, till he was beaten to a pulp.

I am far from a Tyson fan. I feel he is completely responsible for his decisions and actions. The betrayals, the nasty behavior, the street fights, the abuse of women, the drug habit....however, to many, again, they cannot seperate his personality from his accomplishments.

I laugh at the people who say he lost to the first fighter who stood up to him. What a terrible insult to Berbick, Holmes, Thomas, Smith, Tucker, Biggs, Tubbs and Spinks. The reality was that they fought the prime Tyson. Anyone here trying to tell me Buster Douglas was a better or more real fighter than these guys? The same Buster who went out like a dog against Holyfield in his next fight?

Tyson was a world sensation. Like the Beatles, like Elvis, like a prime Ali, like very few in the history of the planet. His ever move became headlines across the globe. He transcended the sport. People who could not name one other fighter knew all about him.

He was a pawn in a game played by much bigger, smarter people and in the manipulations of the day he was exploited for their gains. His personal demons, his low self esteem and terrible perspective and values took over and he fell apart. He was never the same fighter post Spinks again.

He's a bad guy, no question but no one deserved this tragedy.

[SageBrush]

As i recall ponderous but Dangerous Puncher Bernardo Macado Flatterned Berbick in the First round of their fight, But Trevor still ahad some improvement and development to come, probably a case of being caught cold ? just one of them abboration results.

[apollack]

Really well said, HE.

[10-8]

As i recall ponderous but Dangerous Puncher Bernardo Macado Flatterned Berbick in the First round of their fight, But Trevor still ahad some improvement and development to come, probably a case of being caught cold ? just one of them abboration results.

Renaldo Snipes flattened Berbick (just after the Page win) in the first round before backing up and out punching Berbick to a decision. Berbick was a good fighter but how many KO punchers had he faced before Tyson?

[Todd]

The one I hate is: "The Tyson that fought Douglas was PRIME Tyson."

It's fashionable these days to dog Tyson; it's understandable given the disappointment he's given everyone and the people he's driven away from the sport since '97. But that's no reason to be part of a backlash that's just as unreasonable as the fanboys' crusade.

[apollack]

Completely agree Todd. The Tyson that Douglas fought was completely out of shape, unmotivated, possibly drugged up, and had drained himself to lose a crapload of weight for the fight. Tyson was getting beat up and dropped by his sparring partners. He simply wasn't there that night, not from the opening bell. He tried with what he had, but it was next to nothing. It is so patently obvious to me. And I've seen EVERY Tyson fight (except Sims, which only those who were in the audience that night saw). Believe me, that was not Mike Tyson in there, but a total shell.

[Overhand_Right]

Renaldo Snipes flattened Berbick (just after the Page win) in the first round before backing up and out punching Berbick to a decision. Berbick was a good fighter but how many KO punchers had he faced before Tyson?

Backing up? I re-watched this fight last week and there was no backing up by either man. They were both in each others face, a very entertaining & brutal brawl. Snipes could throw some hellish leather but was yet another guy who couldnt take Berbick out.

Berbick knocked Mercado out in 3 rds in the amateurs. He was inexperieced as a pro compared to Mercado (only 10 fights) when BM caught him cold. No biggy.

[Elmer Ray]

... Yeah but nobody else ever punched right THROUGH Trevor Berbick in his prime, or in fact, EVER, he fought for another 14 years after the Tyson fight & no one could stop him. The guy was tough & usually very sharp survival instincts.

nobody ever punched right through larry holmes, michael spinx, tony tubbs, pinklon thomas before either!!!

[10-8]

The Tyson that Douglas fought was completely out of shape, unmotivated, possibly drugged up, and had drained himself to lose a crapload of weight for the fight. Tyson was getting beat up and dropped by his sparring partners. He simply wasn't there that night, not from the opening bell. He tried with what he had, but it was next to nothing. It is so patently obvious to me. And I've seen EVERY Tyson fight (except Sims, which only those who were in the audience that night saw). Believe me, that was not Mike Tyson in there, but a total shell.

According to the AP three weeks before the fight Tyson was sparring five or six rounds a day and week and a half before the fight during sparring it was reported that Tyson was involved in "three rounds of furious exchanges of heavy punches." In contrast it was Douglas who was reportedly less impressive in training and it was noted that he looked "sluggish in an abbreviated public workout" perhaps due to "taking pain-killing penicillin shots from a nagging infection."

It's interesting that during the live call of the fight, commentator Bob Sheridan never made any mention any of Tyson looking slower, sluggish, no head movement etc... and personally I do not think he looked any different from any of his previous defences, but more a case of Douglas looking better than any of Tyson's previous opponents, certainly on that night anyway.

Consider Sheridan's comments upon Tyson entering the ring as well as during the fight.

"Look at Mike. Nothing but seriousness in his eyes."

"He's in magnificent shape."

"Tyson has that look on his face like I'm gonna kill you guy."

"Mike Tyson, now look at his eyes. He has the look of a lion going after the zebra now."

Tyson weighed 220 1/2 lbs which was lighter than he was for Berbick or Tucker. Pretty good weight for a guy that supposedly wasn't training and was only partying.

Tyson started each of the first 5 rounds quickly and aggressively coming right after Douglas with bounce in his legs. In the early rounds Tyson threw many left jabs mixed in with power head shots, the odd body punch and used his standard peek-a-boo head movement defence.

The difference was Douglas was actually fighting back, presenting angles, scoring with jabs and power shots and not just trying to survive like most Tyson victims, outpunching Tyson 73-28 in the first 3 rounds. After hurting Tyson in the 5th, Tyson as was his formula, lost his style and staying with his performance pattern was reduced to a one punch at a time headhunter with minimal head movement.

[Todd]

Don't you think Sheridan had thought about what he was going to say prior to Tyson's ring walk? Not sure how insightful the blow-by-blow guy's canned lines are supposed to be.

I thought it was reported that Tyson was getting hammered in Tokyo and banging as many Japanese chicks as possible. I'm going to nose around on Nexis and see if I can find any first-hand reports.

[10-8]

Don't you think Sheridan had thought about what he was going to say prior to Tyson's ring walk? Not sure how insightful the blow-by-blow guy's canned lines are supposed to be.

Those statements were not all during Tyson's ringwalk. At least two of them ("Tyson has that look on his face like I'm gonna kill you guy.") was made midway during the fight, and the last comment ("Mike Tyson, now look at his eyes. He has the look of a lion going after the zebra now.") was prior to the 9th round starting. These were not canned lines. And regarding the first two comments, are you suggesting Tyson DID NOT look serious and DID NOT look in magnificent shape?

Tyson's out of the ring distractions/excuses can be traced back as far as prior to the Spinks fight when Tyson had gained weight, Jacobs had died, managerial/promotional squabbles, wife/mother in-law career interference, admitted manic-depression, as well as Cayton's assertion that Tyson was dropped in sparring by both Oliver McCall and Mike Williams. This all before Tyson's career defining peak performance win.

If a 23 year old Tyson needs 100% focus and conditioning to beat Buster Douglas then you need to question just how great Tyson really was.

[apollack]

As someone who has watched Tyson's entire career, and as a boxing coach, I can honestly tell you that was more about Tyson than it was about Douglas. Sure Buster looked good, but Tyson let him look good because he was so out of it. All you have to do is throw in the vcr Tyson's fights, get a feel for how he fought against similar opponents, the speed, the footwork, the combos, the headmovement, right from the opening bell, and then put in the Douglas fight and it's going to jump right out at you at how it's obviously a different guy. Col. Bob most likely did not commentate that fight, and even if he did, so what, who the hell is he? That is most likely a canned commentary made later on. That fight was televised live by HBO which had exclusive rights to Tyson's fights. HBO showed Tyson getting dropped in sparring by Greg Page (not a guy known for his power) and regardless what the press said beforehand, ALL of his sparring partners said that Tyson wasn't the same and that they were kicking his ass in the gym. Also, remember, this fight was shortly after Tyson had given an interview saying he wanted to only train for 2-3 weeks for a fight because that was all he thought he needed. How the hell do you expect him to get up for Buster Douglas, a guy who had losses to guys Tyson had beaten. Combine that with the fact that Rooney the disciplinarian was no longer training him and making sure he was in shape, so Tyson was basically training himself.

[10-8]

Col. Bob most likely did not commentate that fight, and even if he did, so what, who the hell is he? That is most likely a canned commentary made later on. That fight was televised live by HBO which had exclusive rights to Tyson's fights.

Combine that with the fact that Rooney the disciplinarian was no longer training him and making sure he was in shape, so Tyson was basically training himself.

Bob Sheridan has been DKP's house commentator since King helped in the promotion of Foreman-Norton back in 1973. He has since called most if not every major King promoted heavyweight title fight that I can recall, Ali-Foreman, Holmes-Ali, Holyfield-Tyson etc....I taped the live satellite feed for Douglas-Tyson and it's Sheridan and obviously wasn't canned. I live in Canada so maybe HBO didn't do the live feed up here for whatever reason, but Sheridan is the live feed I've always gotten (and have on my tapes) from King promoted Tyson fights.

Now my point about Sheridan's comments are quite simple. If Tyson was so noticeably spent, shot, a shell, drugged, out of shape, unmotivated, or so different from the usual Tyson that "it will jump right out at you", is it not likely that the very guy who regularly calls Tyson's fights for DKP and is a few feet away from the action might just make some observation pertaining to the supposed plainly obvious? Not a simple "what's wrong with Tyson tonight?" or "Mike just doesn't look right?" Watch telecasts of say Moorer-Holyfield for example where a fighter is noticeably not right and the commentators jump all over it.

And once and for all, why does Tyson need Kevin Rooney to discipline and motivate him to train hard? I thought great fighters were self motivated and trained hard because THEY WANTED TO WIN AND BE THE BEST. THAT'S THE MINDSET WHICH THE TRULY GREAT FIGHTERS HAVE. Who motivated Ali, Louis, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano, Foreman, Holyfield? The fighters themselves or their trainers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAq5j...related&search=

Here's Sheridan's live call of the 10th round.

[Overhand_Right]

Guys-

If your not a US HBO subscriber, you will get Col Bobs live commentary on all DK fights. So UK, Australia, Canada, basically all English speaking non-USA countrys do get Col Bob.

Its worth pointing out that Bob is and always has been a DK shill. Case in point: April 95 'burden of proof' card. Non DK fighter George Foreman has recently knocked out Moorer. Col Bob says "Foreman in my opinion got lucky". Couple of hours later, DK fighter Oliver McCall is defending v Larry Holmes. "People may say McCall got lucky v Lewis, but in boxing theres no such thing as luck. You throw a punchat your opponent if it lands its not luck!!!"

But overall its unfair to take away from Buster Douglas. I dont think Tyson was at his best, but he wasnt THAT far from it. He boxed in a similar style but as the other poster said, Buster was boxing with far more purpose & aggression than any of Tysons other opponents.

Tyson had had many problems/looked bored in sparring before other fights, such as Tucker and Spinks etc. Before Tucker he was "almost continually arguing with Kevin Rooney"...

[JaKob]

Completely agree Todd. The Tyson that Douglas fought was completely out of shape, unmotivated, possibly drugged up, and had drained himself to lose a crapload of weight for the fight. Tyson was getting beat up and dropped by his sparring partners. He simply wasn't there that night, not from the opening bell. He tried with what he had, but it was next to nothing. It is so patently obvious to me. And I've seen EVERY Tyson fight (except Sims, which only those who were in the audience that night saw). Believe me, that was not Mike Tyson in there, but a total shell.

A total shell? Huge overstatement. Definately not a peak Tyson, but still formidable. Its quite possible that version of Buster Douglas at the very peak of his career could upset the Tyson that destroyed Berbick. He followed the blueprint laid down by quick Tillis... he did everything right.Tyson would've struggled with that Douglas at ANY stage in his career.... Same applies to Ali with Frazier, Louis with conn etc. Douglas produced a stylistic challange.

[JaKob]

As someone who has watched Tyson's entire career, and as a boxing coach, I can honestly tell you that was more about Tyson than it was about Douglas. Sure Buster looked good, but Tyson let him look good because he was so out of it. All you have to do is throw in the vcr Tyson's fights, get a feel for how he fought against similar opponents, the speed, the footwork, the combos, the headmovement, right from the opening bell, and then put in the Douglas fight and it's going to jump right out at you at how it's obviously a different guy. Col. Bob most likely did not commentate that fight, and even if he did, so what, who the hell is he? That is most likely a canned commentary made later on. That fight was televised live by HBO which had exclusive rights to Tyson's fights. HBO showed Tyson getting dropped in sparring by Greg Page (not a guy known for his power) and regardless what the press said beforehand, ALL of his sparring partners said that Tyson wasn't the same and that they were kicking his ass in the gym. Also, remember, this fight was shortly after Tyson had given an interview saying he wanted to only train for 2-3 weeks for a fight because that was all he thought he needed. How the hell do you expect him to get up for Buster Douglas, a guy who had losses to guys Tyson had beaten. Combine that with the fact that Rooney the disciplinarian was no longer training him and making sure he was in shape, so Tyson was basically training himself.

Disagree totally. It was more about Douglas being great on that night then it was Mike being past his peak. Douglas wasn't running, but staying at punching range... Flicking out the sledgehammer jab, following up with the right, moving laterally and using angles and thus removing the oppurtunity for Tyson to get set, nullifying him on the inside and using the uppercut effectively. He FOUGHT Tyson with the absolute belief that he was capable of winning instead of merely trying to survive.

[apollack]

I'm sorry but all I saw Tyson doing that night was showing none of his patented quick footwork, little of his countering, he was much slower than usual, threw mostly only single shots and jabs rather than his usual combos, showed me little fire right from the opening bell, seeming listless. It is so obvious to me. The fact that even a dead Tyson could drop Douglas shows me how shitty Douglas really was. If Tyson had been remotely himself that fight would have been easy. All those other guys Tyson beat would have looked just as good if Tyson had let them like he did Douglas: Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, and Spinks, all of whom were better than Douglas - not one of those guys would have lost to Douglas. Just ask David Bey, Steffen Tangstad, Mike White, Jesse Ferguson, Dave Jaco, Tony Tucker, Trevor Berbick, Evander Holyfield, Luis Monaco, and Lou Savarese.

[hawk5ins]

Sheesh. This is the reason I myself have a hard time giving Mike too much credit. It stirs up the flock and the irrationality and exscuses for everything that didn't go Mike's way, start flying around.

Mike was an excellent/great Heavyweight champion in my opinion. Top 10 all time. He would prove problematic for many past champions and IMO he should NOT be dismissed.

That said, Trevor Berbick STILL was Trevor Berbick. Good fighter, but never did well with the punchers he actually did face and while he DID go 15 rounds with Larry Holmes, he never won a round. Larry Dominated Trevor. Did he blow him out in 2? No, but then again, Larry isn't a puncher either.

The exscuses for the DOuglas bout irritate me to no end. Was Mike in the prime of his career? Absolutely. Was the at his best mentally and physically? No. But it was Buster Douglas. If Mike WAS as great as he is being painted here, he should be able to overcome a Buster Douglas every time out.

No one ever took out Holmes, Spinks, Thomas or Tubbs like that before? Exactly how active was Holmes going into the Tyson bout? How old? How long did he prep for the bout? Spinks was off how long before the bout? And how many aggressive punchers did he face at Heavy? Gerry Cooney? And how active was HE?

Pinklon Thomas? Please before ANYONE talks about Pinklon Thomas, PLEASE watch his bouts with WIlliam Hosea, Smiley Sutton and Francisco Maldanado first. If ANYONE thinks that that Thomas was the same Pinky he took out Tillis and drew with Coetzee or decisioned a flaky Witherspoon or stopped a far too heavy Weaver or even who LOST to Trevor Berbick, I suggest a trip to the eye doctor is in order.

Tubbs? We are talking TONY Tubbs correct? Ok. Nice KO Mike. Good for you.

Mike Tyson underrated? I do recall that ESPN just had him among the 20 greatest fighters of all time on their Who's #1 Boxing list.

I think many are being critical of Mike lately. Some of it is a bit over board. much of it is deserved and is in response to the Over-rating of him that has been done for years and continues today.

Would Mike be competitve with Larry Holmes? Yes. But I still take Larry to either decision or stop him late. Ali as well. Foreman Liston? Fun while they lasted, but give me Sonny and Big George. Frazier? Frazier shows him what infighting is all about. Good scrap, but I'll take Joe. Louis Dempsey? Both could be hurt and dropped. IF Mike can hurt thme early and not let up, he has a chance. I say both weather the storm and stop Mike mid to late rounds. I give Marciano the same outcome. Johnson? I think Mike wins this bout. Lewis? I beleive Mike stops him. Holyfield, Both in thier primes? I'll take Evander. Bowe, Bear, Tunney, Jeffries and Schmeling? MIke stops each one of them. Charles or Walcott? Mike by ko as well.

Mike would be competitive and fair well with many of the divisions past champs. But I think he loses to the cream of the crop. And Placing Mike any higher than 9 or 10 at Heavy, I beleive is a bit too much.

Hawk

[10-8]

I too would rate Tyson somewhere around #10 on my ATG list. Tyson was a great 5 round fighter. Quick starter, explosive puncher, fast hands and good head movement. His attributes are best suited for a short fight. After 5 rounds however Tyson's strengths diminish dramatically. In 58 career fights Tyson had only one stoppage win beyond the 7th round (Jose Ribalta on his feet and protesting) and scored the grand total of only 2 knockdowns (Ribalta and Douglas who as we know gets up and 10 counts Tyson 2 rounds later). Those are some surprisingly low numbers.

I would best sum up Tyson this way. Inside of 5 rounds he has a chance (note emphasize on chance) at an inside 5 round stoppage win against other top 10 ATG. In a fight that lasts past the 5th round however, Tyson is never going to beat Ali, Louis, Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Marciano, Holyfield, Lewis, or Dempsey.

[Sharkey]

I'm sorry but all I saw Tyson doing that night was showing none of his patented quick footwork, little of his countering, he was much slower than usual, threw mostly only single shots and jabs rather than his usual combos, showed me little fire right from the opening bell, seeming listless. It is so obvious to me. The fact that even a dead Tyson could drop Douglas shows me how shitty Douglas really was. If Tyson had been remotely himself that fight would have been easy.

One could easly contend that this was because Douglas didn't allow him to show it. He was slower because he was hesitant. First time a guy throws consistant multi-punch combos at him. Lead right hands even. Getting beat on can make one listless, gun-shy. It is fine for Mike to have sucked it one night. It doesn;t mean he totally was exposed. It doesn't also mean that the Mike from his title reign was 200 times better than the guy that lost the belt in Tokyo.

Doulgas kept punching which would always be tough for Mike to deal with a 6'4" guy with very good skills who actually threw caution to the wind. Doesn't mean Lennox Lewis who was better than Douglas would suceed against the best Tyson because of it.

However it does make one consider than a guy who can take a shot and has an offensive arsenal like...Holyfield for example may always have been armed to beat Mike.

When Tommy Hearns lost to Ray Leonard, he didn't show much of his vaunted power. Tommy had a slight lead perhaps at the time of the stoppage, showing how bad Ray really was. Perhaps Tommy was not remotely himself THAT night.

[10-8]

When Tommy Hearns lost to Ray Leonard, he didn't show much of his vaunted power. Tommy had a slight lead perhaps at the time of the stoppage, showing how bad Ray really was. Perhaps Tommy was not remotely himself THAT night.

Exactly Sharks...or when Foreman lost to Ali, he never showed his vaunted power, missed often, looked clumsy, off-balance, pawed at punches, lacked stamina and was hit and hurt often. Was Foreman not remotely the same fighter that blew out Frazier and Norton, or was the guy in front of him executing the perfect game plan for exposing Foreman's shortcomings? I think we know the answer.

[hagler04]

The excuses for Tyson was so bad. THe man was 221 lbs, in shape, had been prepared, had looked as fercious as ever in his two post Rooney fights. And as someone else noted, the fighter makes the fighter, not the trainer. His corner was actually giving him all the correct advice if you listen to the corner commentary of the Douglas fight.

But Buster Douglas boxed a HELLUVA fight. That Douglas would've whipped Berbick, Page, Thomas, and I would make even money vs TUbbs, Tucker in a rematch etc. He neutralized perfectly everything that Tyson did. That was a prime Tyson. And prime Tyson got his ass kicked. End of story. Sleeping with Japanese prostitutes doesn't turn an all time great into a B fighter overnight.

[shortright]

The excuses for Tyson was so bad. THe man was 221 lbs, in shape, had been prepared, had looked as fercious as ever in his two post Rooney fights. And as someone else noted, the fighter makes the fighter, not the trainer. His corner was actually giving him all the correct advice if you listen to the corner commentary of the Douglas fight.

But Buster Douglas boxed a HELLUVA fight. That Douglas would've whipped Berbick, Page, Thomas, and I would make even money vs TUbbs, Tucker in a rematch etc. He neutralized perfectly everything that Tyson did. That was a prime Tyson. And prime Tyson got his ass kicked. End of story. Sleeping with Japanese prostitutes doesn't turn an all time great into a B fighter overnight.

nonsence he looked like crap agaisnt bruno, he made douglas look good cause he didnt train, training is very very important in boxing

[hawk5ins]

Look any worse for Bruno than he did for Tucker?

Both fighters hit and rocked Mike early. Both Held on. Tyson fell into, initiated and allowed himself to be clinched by both fighters and did nearly zero infighting.

What was the difference? Mike stopped Bruno where he didn't Tucker.

I have yet to see this drop off in his skill level that the exscuse makers have used re the absence of the Horribly over rated Kevin Rooney.

Hawk