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Thread: Tyson / Berbick...

  1. #31
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    Kevin Rooney

    Kevin Rooney. Trainer extraordinaire. Trains a 5'10 heavyweight with a 71" reach and neglects to teach him how to fight on the inside or establish an early rounds concentrated body attack which will wear down his opponent if the fight goes late.

  2. #32
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    Re: How did Tyson

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    Look any worse for Bruno than he did for Tucker?

    Both fighters hit and rocked Mike early. Both Held on. Tyson fell into, initiated and allowed himself to be clinched by both fighters and did nearly zero infighting.

    What was the difference? Mike stopped Bruno where he didn't Tucker.

    I have yet to see this drop off in his skill level that the exscuse makers have used re the absence of the Horribly over rated Kevin Rooney.

    Hawk
    i didnt know winnig a clear ud over a very good tucker was such a disgrace

  3. #33
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    Ok

    Answer me this re the comaprison between the Tucker and Bruno bouts: After FOUR rounds, how many rounds did Tyson lose agianst Tucker and how many agianst Bruno?

    Agianst Tucker, I'd say the score was 2 rounds apiece after 4 in whihc Mike was staggered by an uppercut in the first.

    Agianst Bruno, Mike had won every single round and also was staggered in the first round. He also dropped Frank in the first.

    Where is this drop off from Tucker (under Rooney) to Bruno (under Snowell)?

    A "very Good" Tucker. What is this based on? The Douglas win, in whihc Buster was clearly winning before he quit? What other big win did Tony have that would relegate him to the "very good" status?

    Was it that decision win over Young who had just dropped 4 consecutive bouts?

    Was it those back to back wins over Fast Eddie Richardson?

    How about that win over James Broad? The same Broad who was beaten by Marvis Frazier and KO's in 2 by Witherspoon and who AFTER his loss to Tucker, woudl go on and drop 7 of his next 10 bouts. Him?

    Maybe it was that 10 round decision win over Smiley Sutton, a fighter who was ko'd by virtually every fighter who beat him......EXCEPT Tony Tucker.

    What on God's Green earth qualifies Tony Tucker as this reputable opponent?

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 08-25-2006 at 05:12 PM.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Don King and the IBF.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Quote Originally Posted by apollack
    I'm sorry but all I saw Tyson doing that night was showing none of his patented quick footwork, little of his countering, he was much slower than usual, threw mostly only single shots and jabs rather than his usual combos, showed me little fire right from the opening bell, seeming listless. It is so obvious to me. The fact that even a dead Tyson could drop Douglas shows me how shitty Douglas really was. If Tyson had been remotely himself that fight would have been easy. All those other guys Tyson beat would have looked just as good if Tyson had let them like he did Douglas: Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, and Spinks, all of whom were better than Douglas - not one of those guys would have lost to Douglas. Just ask David Bey, Steffen Tangstad, Mike White, Jesse Ferguson, Dave Jaco, Tony Tucker, Trevor Berbick, Evander Holyfield, Luis Monaco, and Lou Savarese.
    Sorry. Douglas made him look like shit... i acknowledge that Tyson was not at his peak, but you are blowing things way out of proportion. Tyson wasn't able to counter, Douglas was keeping the fight at his range and slamming in his punches fast and hard. Again Tyson wasn't able to land in combination, Douglas was using angles, his lateral movement and nullifying him on the inside. He did go headhunting, but when Plan A was running smoothly he always did. If Tyson had half the perseverance and inside fighting capability of Joe Frazier he would've had Douglas out of there within 10 rounds. Like 10-8 has touched on... Why Kevin Rooney didn't focus on developing Mike's inside fighting skills is beyond me... Look at his dimensions. Because Mike was primarily a midrange fighter he would always struggle with a tough stick n mover.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    The one thing about Tyson and his level of greatness, is everyone uses the word IF. Well, if me aunt had balls she'd be me uncle.
    Tyson at his best was very great, but he was never tested by an all time great. He had a few good wins and looked spectacular in doing so. The problem is all timew greats don't burn out that quickly. Personally, I don't buy into the arguments about the training, he din not have an ounce of fat on him and yes he did use head movement. Douglas just timed him perfectly throughout the fight.
    If Tyson had Roony..... is another argument. What has Roonely done since Tyson? If Roonely was so awesome you would think he'd have a few champs under his belt since their break up.
    The bottom line is that Tyson was a destructive machine in the ring and against his decent opposition, but he was equally destructive in his mentality who in my opinion, would not face the likes of Lewis because he had the perfect style to beat him; a good jab, a great right hand and good counterpunching ability. Beating Trevor Berbick was no great feat amongst the annul of boxing history.

  7. #37
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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Exactly.

    And the big thing to remember in the Douglas bout was that he had the guy right where he wanted him; floored late and hurt. What top notch heavy wouldn't want a buster douglas in that scenario? That's a silver platter. Geez, how long did it take a guy like tucker to get rid of douglas in their championship bout? And just how many of the greats or top notch heavies let a guy like douglas slip thru their fingers when hurt like that? Let alone go and get stopped themselves?

    Maybe Tyson didn't train properly. To me, that just shows a weakness in his game. And the so called tyson not training thing===and he hardly came in like a greg page or tim witherspoon weight wise==was offset by the personal problems douglas suffered. But douglas is still a B grade fighter and Tyson with his B game still has to find a way to beat the guy.

    Great fighters come back to win bouts in which they're behind or overcome obsticles like cuts/swelling/badly hurt/etc. Tyson fought in that d'amato style and it is flawed and vulnerable. Anyone with lateral movement that turns the D'amato fighter is going to be difficult. And they always use that clockwise rotation stuff bending at the waist to work their way in. It's on a rhythm count and not sparadic like the one Frazier used. And Tyson himself is a much much different fighter when he gets hit a few combos on the outside. He stops his aggressiveness about 50% and stands around on the outside doing nothing. Those are the guys that he doesn't and won't look good against. And Rooney isn't or wasn't going to change that. Put Tyson in with a stationary, predictable, and slow guy like bruno and he looks like an all time great.

    And like Hawkins pointed out above, all those early title defenses need scrutiny. Look about 2 branches past the trunk of the tree and don't just look at Tyson going into the bout. Look at the opposition and their pedigree. What was the recent form of those opponents of Tyson? I cannot think of one at the top of their game, perhaps aside from tucker but who knows with that guy? And even at the top of their game, what did you really have? Sirloin or a hamburger steak?

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Look it. Just do me one favor, in the interest of science and objectivity. Watch the 1st round of Tyson's five previous bouts, then watch 1st round of Douglas, then watch the first round of the four fights after, then tell me it isn't obvious to you that Tyson came out for the Dougals fight differently than all the rest.

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    Apollack

    I addressed this already but I'll narrow the search to your question even more:

    Look at the first round of Tucker and then look at the first round of Bruno and explain to me the drop off. That is if we are making the issue being the absence of Kevin Rooney.

    As far as your DOuglas first round, let me turn your question around: Look at how DOUGLAS performed in that first round and compare it to how Tyson's 5 previous opponents looked in the first round and tell me that you could not see the difference in the confidence, approach and command that Douglas brought into the ring as opposed to Mike's previous opponents (Though I think Carl WIlliams needs to be tossed out as he simply got cuaght and that fat pig Neumann wasn't going to give him a chance to continue. Not that it may have made a difference, but if you are going to make that conclusion than why let them fight in the first place.).

    And if you are including Holmes in that group of 5, Holmes looked like a 38 year old grandfather, who trained for 6 weeks and hadn't fought in 21 months. Likewise Micheal Spinks fought like a fighter who hadn't stepped into the ring in over a year himself.

    There is always a flip side my friend.

    Hawk

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    I did re-watch the bouts indicated. What Douglas had the others didn't was lateral movement. And was ready to fight and not intimadated or cold. And had the balance to punch while moving his feet.
    Tyson is no twinkletoes in there and if you have the ability to turn him, he's going to be a step behind and he'll walk into punches and get caught posing on the outside. Like everyone else at the time, I figured he'd get hit a little by a guy like douglas, but I also thought he had the tools to break the guy down pretty quick and walk thru him. But Tyson doesn't steamroll the same when he has to work hard to break a guy down. He looks much much better against styles that are stationary and easy to hit. I'm sure if Tyson was fighting lets say a washed up dokes instead, the result would've been a quickie ko.

    To me, Tyson made Douglas appear to be a terrific fighter. Just like Bowe made Golata look like.

  11. #41
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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Guys I've been out of town since I started this thread. This is the first time I touched a computer and it is only for a moment. I'll be back for more by Tuesday...just wanted a comment or two to follow up...

    Bullshit regarding Tyson was in prime shape for Douglas...anyone saying that simply knows nothing.

    The prime Tyson would have knocked any Douglas out...the mentally flat, physically undertrained one almost did. No version of Douglas could have withstood the constant speed, pressure and power of the prime Tyson. This Douglas had benefited from fighting a guy who got off to a slow start and lacked the conditioning to bounce back and knew in his heart he deserved to lose. There is no way to minimize the mental aspect of Mike Tyson and how it effected his fighting. That's for another part of this thread when I have more time.

    Tyson was a short guy. Like Marciano and Frazier had had to bring his A game to compensate for the physical attributes he gave up against much bigger men. By everyone's admitance but 10-8, the Tyson of the Douglas fight was not is shape. To quote his weight is nonsense. Didn't Ali weight 218 for the Holmes bout? Guess he was in shape 10-8, huh?

    Boxing is a sport where different men have different primes and career lengths. Tyson was a shooting star. He could and should have dominated for a few more years. From 20 to 29 or so. I believe he would have beaten Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis in his prime.

    People forget that before he lost his marbles he was getting to Holyfield in the end of the second and start of the third round of their second fight. AS much as I like Lewis and rate him in the top eight, he was a tad slow and his chin was not granite, something that was a must to beat a prime Mike.And let's face it, Bowe simply got hit too much.

    Tyson is a remarkably polarizing figure. He has given the world so many reasons to dislike him. He is a totally fu-ked guy. His actions have been inexcusable. However, he is not all to blame.

    He was an inner city kid with zero moral concious. By the time he ended up in the Catskills, he had a long prison record with all the trimmings. He was then used by different predators, in varying manners and degrees but always the same endgame in sight.

    This list includes the best of a generation; D'Amato, Jacobs, Clayton, the Given's women, King, Trump, Finkle, HBO, Showtime, evey major news network and every hustler that got near him. He was totally not up to it and it brought out all his considerable inner demons. He could not deal with his extraordinary fame and self destructed in the most ulgy , public of manners.

    Mike Tyson is a very sad story. He is a victim of his fame much like an Elvis, a Michael Jackson and the few others who occupied the world stage. Some like a Jordan or an Ali have the ability to manage it. Others fall apart. Tyson fell the hardest and ulgiest. However, it will never take away from me the fact that he was one of the greatest fighting machines that ever laced on the gloves. In addition, we never even saw the best he was capable of. He was a tremendously accomplished underachiever.

    I'd love to hear Teddy Atllas' thoughts on this matter. I'm gonna call and ask him. Maybe I'll post it.
    Last edited by HE Grant; 08-28-2006 at 12:28 PM.

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    Evan

    I don't shed too many tears for the sad story of Tyson, because he was given the opportunity to escape from dire circumstances and he p*ssed it away. Far too many Never recieve the opportunities he recieved. I reserve my sympathies for them.

    Though the extent of what he actually pissed away, may be a bit exxagerated. I personally do not beleive that he SIGNIFICANTLY achieves more than he did if he kept his nose clean. I still say Evander Holyfield beats him in 90 or 91 if either scheduled bout ever came off then. And what Tyson Still may have in 92-96 depends on whether he could beat Lewis or Bowe in my mind. If Tyson is STILL Tyson form 86-91, he beats them. I have serious doubts he maintains that level though later into the decade.

    As far as prime goes, I DO think Tyson was still in his physical prime. I also think that one can be in their prime and still not be at their best. Which was the case for Tyson agianst DOuglas. I also belive without a doubt that If Mike were as great as we were to beleive he was, he overcomes a challenge of a Buster Douglas.

    Agian, I point to Holmes Weaver as a perfect example of a Great heavyweight being in his prime, but not at his best and ALSO overcoming that bad night to pull out a win.

    I agree that weights mean very little. Tyson was at his heaviest for Berbick for all of his pre-prison title fights. Yet that was probably he best career performance.

    Holmes came in around 215 for Tim Witherspoon, yet at that stage of his career, it was probably too light for him.

    It goes deeper than weight.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 08-28-2006 at 12:53 PM.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Agian, I point to Holmes Weaver as a perfect example of a Great heavyweight being in his prime, but not at his best and ALSO overcoming that bad night to pull out a win.

    i dont buy that exuse. i just think holmes happened to run into a fighter who is very good in mike weaver. mike weaver is underated, he was a very good dangerous heavyweight.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Quote Originally Posted by HE Grant
    Guys I've been out of town since I started this thread. This is the first time I touched a computer and it is only for a moment. I'll be back for more by Tuesday...just wanted a comment or two to follow up...

    Bullshit regarding Tyson was in prime shape for Douglas...anyone saying that simply knows nothing.

    The prime Tyson would have knocked any Douglas out...the mentally flat, physically undertrained one almost did. No version of Douglas could have withstood the constant speed, pressure and power of the prime Tyson. This Douglas had benefited from fighting a guy who got off to a slow start and lacked the conditioning to bounce back and knew in his heart he deserved to lose. There is no way to minimize the mental aspect of Mike Tyson and how it effected his fighting. That's for another part of this thread when I have more time.

    Tyson was a short guy. Like Marciano and Frazier had had to bring his A game to compensate for the physical attributes he gave up against much bigger men. By everyone's admitance but 10-8, the Tyson of the Douglas fight was not is shape. To quote his weight is nonsense. Didn't Ali weight 218 for the Holmes bout? Guess he was in shape 10-8, huh?

    Boxing is a sport where different men have different primes and career lengths. Tyson was a shooting star. He could and should have dominated for a few more years. From 20 to 29 or so. I believe he would have beaten Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis in his prime.

    People forget that before he lost his marbles he was getting to Holyfield in the end of the second and start of the third round of their second fight. AS much as I like Lewis and rate him in the top eight, he was a tad slow and his chin was not granite, something that was a must to beat a prime Mike.And let's face it, Bowe simply got hit too much.

    Tyson is a remarkably polarizing figure. He has given the world so many reasons to dislike him. He is a totally fu-ked guy. His actions have been inexcusable. However, he is not all to blame.

    He was an inner city kid with zero moral concious. By the time he ended up in the Catskills, he had a long prison record with all the trimmings. He was then used by different predators, in varying manners and degrees but always the same endgame in sight.

    This list includes the best of a generation; D'Amato, Jacobs, Clayton, the Given's women, King, Trump, Finkle, HBO, Showtime, evey major news network and every hustler that got near him. He was totally not up to it and it brought out all his considerable inner demons. He could not deal with his extraordinary fame and self destructed in the most ulgy , public of manners.

    Mike Tyson is a very sad story. He is a victim of his fame much like an Elvis, a Michael Jackson and the few others who occupied the world stage. Some like a Jordan or an Ali have the ability to manage it. Others fall apart. Tyson fell the hardest and ulgiest. However, it will never take away from me the fact that he was one of the greatest fighting machines that ever laced on the gloves. In addition, we never even saw the best he was capable of. He was a tremendously accomplished underachiever.

    I'd love to hear Teddy Atllas' thoughts on this matter. I'm gonna call and ask him. Maybe I'll post it.
    Mike Tyson HIMSELF will say he deserves no sympathy b/c he was given so many opportunities and pissed them all away. And he's being honest.

    To compare Ali's condition vs Holmes to Tyson in Tokyo is absurb. Ali basically drained himself down to below 220 at age 38 when his body was already shot to hell from numerous ring wars and battles, and possibly the early stages of Parkinsons. Tyson TRAINED for Douglas . . .there is numerous reports and film footage of him doing so. To buy into the urban myth that all he did pre-Douglas is bang whores and sleep all day is doing so simply b/c it helps make sense of the loss in a fan's mind. But it's not true.

    You talk of the constant speed and pressure. But prime Tyson never gave constant speed and pressure. Watch the Smith and Tillis fights. Just as another poster said, the D'Amato style is like a 7'inch single . . .it works really well for a short duration, but then you need to stop and put the needle back to the beginning to get back into the correct rhythm. Frazier, on the other hand, was like a double LP . . .continual motion moving along in a single sweep . . . .not trying to get into a certain gear for a certain combinatation that you went over in the gym, which is how Mike fought a lot of the time.

    If you kept a hard jab in his face and constantly turned him, he could never set up. Douglas, Holyfield all understood, and thus completely not only beat Mike, but dominated him. Notice how NONE of Mike's loss (Holyfield rematch is too short), were competetive fights. Hell, he arguably only won the first round vs Williams. Once not on top, he showed he could not shift into another gear and come back. That's why Tyson was not an all time great fighter.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Teddy Atlas refers to Tyson as a 'game loser'. A fighter who won't quit but who won't fight back enough to gut out a fight he's losing. Seeing how Tyson never came back to win a fight he was trailing, I'd say that's a pretty fair assesment.

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    Elmer

    What part of Holmes Weaver don't you buy?

    It's not like what Larry was experiencing that night was any great secret or something that was unearthed at some later date.

    Larry Merchant in an old interview states he recalls seeing Holmes in his dressing room exscuse himself to go into the can, no less that 3 times within a half an hour span. This was PRIOR to the bout.

    There has never been anyone associated with Holmes camp or that promotion that has ever doubted that Holmes was indeed sick for the fight.

    Heck look at Holmes' facial expressions in the corner as early at the 3rd round and you can see he looked pale and drawn. And I doubt Giachetti soaked him as much as he did between rounds becuase Holmes was feeling peachy. Christ Holmes was so waterlogged he nearly lost his trunks. Between the perspiration and Richie nearly drowning Lar, It's no wonder Holmes didn't slip more than once in his corner.

    Now Sharks will tell you "not Sampras sick", but I don't think he disputes Holmes was not 100% that night.

    Watch the fight. It's obvious.

    Hawk

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Quote Originally Posted by 10-8
    Seeing how Tyson never came back to win a fight he was trailing
    You didn't think Tyson was "trailing" a bit when he KO'd Botha?

    That's yet another line people have grown so accustomed to parroting when criticizing Tyson that they don't even think about whether it's true. Add it to the list right after: "He fought all no-hopers up until Douglas"; "He lost to the first guy who stood up to him"; "Every opponent was scared shitless of him up until Douglas"; and "He folded up his tent and quit whenever someone fought back."

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    And yeah, before another tangential argument appears, Botha sucked ass and if Tyson had really been all that, he wouldn't have been trailing in the first place, etc., etc.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Post Spinks he was no longer in his prime because he stopped training and living like a fighter. He purely relied on one punch at a time. Defense became a thing of the past. As he was young I agree he still had the physical skills. However, he did not maintain them and they dimished. He was no longer the same fighter.

    Teddy Atlas has a lot more to say about Tyson than your often repeated sound bite. He often refers to him as a tremendous underachiever.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...


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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Quote Originally Posted by HE Grant
    Post Spinks he was no longer in his prime because he stopped training and living like a fighter. He purely relied on one punch at a time. Defense became a thing of the past. As he was young I agree he still had the physical skills. However, he did not maintain them and they dimished. He was no longer the same fighter.

    Teddy Atlas has a lot more to say about Tyson than your often repeated sound bite. He often refers to him as a tremendous underachiever.
    Show me any evidence that Tyson "stopped training" post Spinks.

    These comments like 'defense became a thing of the past' are baloney. As someone who simply had a few amateur bouts and sparred for many years, boxing is something in which you develop a certain style and certain habits, and over time they are VERY hard to break. So you're telling me that, in a year span, Mike Tyson stopped doing the things that he had done over and over again in training, in amateur fights, and in the 35 plus professional fights he'd had over years?????

    The question speaks for itself.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Show you, sorry Hagler but I don't have round the clock reality tv big brother footage.

    Let's take the words of every boxing expert covering him at this period, how they all comment on his deterioration as a fighter. How he no longer threw combinations but went for one punch at a time. How about the endless coverage of his partying lifestyle. How about going from the spartan training regimen of a Rooney to having absolute amateurs like the clowns in his corner when he lost to Douglas, infront of the world having zero knowledge on how to advise him or even what tools to use to stop his swelling.

    How's that for starters? How about the most obvious, your own eyes. Watch the Thomas, Berbick or Biggs fights and then watch Ruddock. Go on record now and tell us that you say you see no difference.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    No need for Big Brother footage.

    1st round of Ruddock I, and first round vs Berbick, Biggs, Thomas etc.

    Honestly, there is no noticieable difference in ferocity or skill there. Same fighter.

    Why the fight itself didn't turn into the Berbick fight was that Razor, much more of a puncher than any of the fighters mentioned, stood his ground and really NAILED Tyson with several very hard punches in that first round. In the rounds to follow, Tyson was much more cautious and reserved. Ruddock didn't run and do a bad Ali impersonation like Biggs, try to stick and move like Thomas (who looked rather slow and off that night), or brawl with no knockout power to speak of like Berbick. He had the power, stood flat-footed, and hit Tyson flush with hard punches. Later on, his flat-footedness and complete lack of boxing skill sealed his fate, but that's why Tyson didn't breeze through him like he did to some of his 80s opponents.
    Last edited by hagler04; 08-29-2006 at 12:37 PM.

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    Evan

    I'd like to commment on the "spartan-like" training under Kevin Rooney.

    These are Mike's OWN words as taken from the RING EXTRA Vol1 Number1 Mike Tyson Special:

    Nino Ribalta: "Can I tell you something about that fight? I was out of Shape. I was just Out there. I started living Life. I started getting involved with Girls and Stuff Like that. I started Drinking."

    Spartan? This was a year and a half into his pro career! Oh the influence Rooney had over Mike!

    Berbick: "I had a few problems. I had gonerreha, the clap. I was running around, hanging out with this girl. You have to understand that this was something I was unnacustomed to, girls just throwing themselves at me. This thing happened, and I had it for a long time becuase I was too affriad to tell them. Then I went to a doctor and got a shot. I was just embarrassed. But I figured, to hell with it, and I went in there and fought. And even though it was only two rounds, I was very weak in that fight. I'm glad it didn't go six, seven rounds, I don't know what would have happened."

    Geez. Sounds like the stories/exscuses that are used for the DOuglas bout. I guess if you win the bout, it demostrates how good you are. But if the parachute doesn't open...Well don't worry. The exscuse is already there for you.

    Thomas: "I don't know what I did. I think I was gallivanting around with a bunch of Chicks not long before the fight. My mind wasn't too concentrated on the fight."

    Sound like Tokyo or the Berbick fight?

    Tucker: "That was the heaviest I'd ever fought. I didn't even want to fight anymore. I just wanted to live life, the kind of life a 20 year old person should have. I wanted to have fun. I started to neglect my skills and they started to deterioate. Even though I know now that you have to dedicate yourself, I'd never had a chance to have fun the way I wanted to. The only reason I fought was becuase they said I was gonna get sued."

    That Rooney-Jacobs-Cayton influence agian showing just how focused Tyson was before the "split" after the Spinks bout. Oh the spectre of D'Amato just was held on to so tight!

    Holmes: " I guess it was something that had to happen for Financial reasons. He wasn't in any kind of shape."

    Gee Holmes said he wasn't in shape. The Experts said Holmes wasn't in shape. TYSON said Holmes wasn't in shape. Geez. MAYBE Holmes wasn't in shape!

    Bruno and Williams: "I was out of Shape for that fight. I was living high off the hog. Man Please! I was out of Shape. Same thing as the Bruno fight."

    And the difference between these two bouts and Tucker, Berbick, Valdes and Thomas bouts UNDER Rooney is?

    Douglas: I lost. What can I say? He fought well. It became a habit not training for these guys. Every Now and then I'd train hard. Train hard for this guy. Skip that guy. It catches up with you. I didn't give a damn. I knew that if somebody beat me, I'd get serious and beat them back in three or four months.
    Mike goes on about Douglas not giving him a return. Boo Hoo. I'm not sure why Holyfield should have to miss out on his deserved shot becuase Tyson got KTFO. Agian, what is the difference between Douglas and the other bouts under Rooney? None. That Kevin had Tyson training like a Marciano or a Hagler or a Frazier is an absolute myth.

    Personally, I think Aaron Snowell is a pretty good trainer and AT LEAST on par with Rooney. The work he did with Tim Austin was very impressive. Rooney has never gone on to develope talent the way Snowell did with Austin.

    Is it exscusable that Aaron did not have enswell with him that night? Of course not. But it is not like Snowell didn't give him advice in the corner and simply said "hit Him". Of course with the whispering that was done that night, I'm not sure any of us know what advice was said, whether solid or worthless. Snowell got repalced by Giachetti becuase Richie was back on good terms with Don King and King HAD to have Mike make a trainer change. You aren't going to make it look like Tyson should take the blame. Heap it on the corner and wash your hands of them by dismissing them. Woah. Impressive. Things will be all right now.

    Btw, I think Giachetti is a far superior trainer to Kevin Rooney.

    Ruddock II: "I wasn't in any kind of shape. IT was three months after the first fight and I'm still celebrating."

    It goes on a bit further, but in essense, Mike demostrates that there is no difference in his attitude towards training than it was under Rooney or Snowell.

    I assume that this info I shared will prompt MORE defense/exscuses to be made for Tyson. Afterall. NONE of this is Mike's fault.

    It HAS to be someone or something else.

    Either that or "Look how great Mike was. He did all he did and he never even tried that hard! Imagine if he EVER trained or took it serious!"

    Sigh........

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 08-29-2006 at 01:41 PM.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Just because someone doesn't train does not mean that he is not in his prime.
    Its like saying that if a fighter didn't throw his jab tonight that he wasn't in his prime or in fighting condition. Hey coming to the fight in shape is part of the skill set in boxing.

    You hear a lot of things about a certain fighter "wanting it more" than the other, or being "hungrier" or whatever. There are excuses about Duran in Duran-Leonard II about him having to drop 20 pounds or whatever in the days before the fight, while Leonard was in peak shape. Doesn't that count as "wanting it more"? One fighter decided to train one didn't. One fighter decided to outwork his opponent, one didn't, its the same thing.

    The explosion of statistical analysis in baseball has proven, or at least provided compelling evidence that an athletes prime is between ages 25-29, with about a 5-10% decrease per year after age 30. (Some decline less rapidly than others) Just because Tyson decided to piss those years away doesn't mean that he wasn't in his prime.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    The difference Hagler is how Mike took the shots and came back strong...Tyson was clearly more shook by both Bruno and Tucker than every by Ruddock. In his prime he came on and dominated in an impressive manner...against Ruddock, already in his slide, he became a one punch at a time guy...by the way, in 19 rounds against Ruddock, I sday Mike won almost every one, even the watered down version.
    Last edited by HE Grant; 08-30-2006 at 12:46 AM.

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    Imo

    Tyson was Whole Milk until he went to prison. Not skim or even 1%.

    If we are to place blame on his performances becuase of what he did outside the ring, then as Tyson admits himself, he was DOING this long before Rooney ever left. So why cut him slack for Douglas and state he was in his prime for Tucker? What Changed?

    So, again, MY Opinion, I don't think we can use this as an exscuse. His prime was 86-91. Performances may be uneven. And if Douglas simply laid down as he had in the past, NO ONE would question Mike's preperation for one min.

    Afterall, how could one? It was the same as it was under Rooney.

    Hawk

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    Deterioration happens in stages. The tapes don't lie. You can see the clear downward spiral post Spinks.

    Are you guys saying that you believe Buster Douglas and Razor Ruddock were better fighters than Berbick, Tucker, Biggs, Thomas and company because I sure don't. The difference was Tyson.

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    DOuglas on THAT night

    Was better than Tucker. The DOuglas that DID face Tucker, the one who quit after handling Tony relatively easily, was NOT as good as the Douglas that faced Tyson. The Douglas that faced Tyson, BEATS Tucker.

    DOuglas from Tokyo was clearly better than Tyrell Biggs. Clearly. As David Bey said when he lost to Biggs: "Ready for TYson? He wasn't ready for me." Well put.

    Pinklon Thomas that FACED Tyson was NOT the Thomas that beat Witherspoon. Tapes don't lie? I agree. That's why I always advise anyone who think Thomas was still Thomas (whatever that really was) to watch the Maldanado, Smiley Sutton and WIlliam "it was the shoes" Hosea bouts. THink Thomas looked bad agianst Berbick? Watch his next 3 fights. He was pathetic.

    Berbick is a tough one for me becuase I think that going into his bout with Tyson, Trevor may have been coming off the most impressive performance of his career, other than the Page fight. And among Tyson Title fight oppoenents, he may come in with THE most impressive win. Bonecrusher might have an argument, but Witherspoon had his Mind everywhere but on that bout. Focused Timmy does what he did a year an a half earlier to Bonecrusher.

    But even with Berbick's performance, he STILL matched up all wrong for Tyson AND was his win over Thomas more of an issue with Pinklon or Trevor being that good that night. Pinky himself had his mind more on promoting an album than prepping for Berbick. And I have never been impressed with Thomas to begin with. Great jab? SHeesh Weaver was outjabbing him for a good protion of their fight. I just don't see the big deal with Pinky. Witherspoon also foght down the night he lost to Thomas. Blink some more Tim. ANd your fight was with Thomas. NOT Don King.

    And let's ALSO recall, that Berbick does have a bit of a history with stringing good performances together. Witness his follow up to the Page win. Losses to SNipes and the Immortal ST Gordan.

    Does DOUGLAS from Tokyo beat Berbick from the night HE faced Tyson? I'm saying yes with hesitancy. Cause Berbick is so flipping hard to read. When Buster actually DID face Berbick on the undercard of Tyson Bruno, I CERTAINLY was NOT impressed with Douglas. I thought he won but Berbick looked pretty crappy himself. Certainly I did not sit up and say WOW, this guy is a legit contender.

    Personally, I thought he'd get squashed by Tyson. But the Douglas that showed up in Tokyo was CLEARLY a better fighter THAT night, than the fighter who DID beat Berbick, two fights earlier.

    Rudduck I think takes Berbick out. He stops Biggs. He destroys the THomas that faced Tyson and would be even money with Tucker. Depends on who's busier as to who wins that bout. I have no issue taking Rudduck, though I do beleive if the parachte doesn't open, he could be in trouble late.

    So that what I see when I watch the tapes.

    And as far as the Spartan training that Tyson did under Rooney. As Mike's OWN words state: THat is a myth. I understand deterioration takes place over time, but with that belief, I'm not so willing to beleive that there is a CLEAR cut off to the window of greatness and mediocrity as so many are willing to state exists with the Spinks fight in 88'.

    And While performances may have been uneven at times (He sure looked pretty good to me agianst Stewart and Tillman. To paraphrase an earlier post: Exactly who did that to these two prior to Mike doing it to them?), the man's prime IMO was from late 86, say Ratliff, through his going to Prison.

    ANd I get that from what I see on tape.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 08-30-2006 at 03:53 PM.

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    Re: Tyson / Berbick...

    I've stayed out of this one for several reasons...the main one being Tyson has been covered ad nauseum and he makes me sick when I think about him.

    The thread topic itself....well frankly I don't think a heck of a lot of Berbick, so I don't see Tyson mangling him as any great shake, Tyson looked good that night and Berbick showed some balls and like Forrest Gump that's all I have to say about that..........

    As to Douglas-Tyson......Tyson was smack in his prime, he trained to the level he thought he needed to to beat a tune up that was a 40 -1 underdog, a fighter known more to that point for failing to impress even though he had obvious talents and assets.

    Every dog gets his day, for once Buster put it together, trained like a man possessed under a new trainer without his dad involved, and showed up ready and wanting to fight and take advantage of a huge opportunity.

    In a couple of earlier fights, Tyson had shown little glimpses of not being invincible, as so many "experts" had him made out to be....he could be muscled around a bit and he could be hit and he could be hurt....he wasn't that big and the biggest thing was he was so damn used to scaring the crap out of his opponents and seemed suprised when they didn't back off...

    Tyson should have been in better shape for the fighter he encountered in Tokyo...he also shouldn't have let that loss be the end...he could have learned the lesson that Joe Louis and others had to learn...the best lessons are always the hardest learned. Tyson could have been one of the all time greats. As it is I think he was one of the all time punks...and that's not to belittle the immense talents he had or the great run of fights that he won.

    Buster had been an underachiever, he was tainted, I believe by management issues that had to seem similar to what his father had experienced.....but he was also experienced, had a good punch, was in great condition, and maybe as importantly as any other factor, wasn't the least bit muscle bound.

    He took some big shots from Mike, and never failed to answer them. Every clinch, every time Mike came inside, Buster got him with something...whether it was nice right from outside in, a little wrestling, pushing and mauling, etc, he showed Tyson he was right there and there wasn't any intimidation that Tyson could pull off against him......he hurt him and he controlled his fight...the exact opposite of what Tyson was accustomed to and the exact opposite of what everyone expected. He kicked his ass...... plain and simple.

    Tyson was in his prime, even if he was undertrained. His weaknesses were exposed...I submit that the weaknesses in his game were always there, waiting for someone to expose....the someone was Buster and he deserves credit for a great fight, not some excuse about Tyson this or Tyson that...it was Buster that did it.

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