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Thread: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

  1. #1
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    Was Mcgovern- Gans Really A Fake?

    Joe Gans admitted to being involved in two fakes in his career, the Terry McGovern and Jimmy Britt fights.

    The following quote is from from the Monte Cox artcle on Gans:

    "Gans went down several times against McGovern without being hit. The Dec 14 Chicago Record Herald reported that the “Bout Has Suspicious Look.” The fight's referee George Siler, one of the best and most well known 3rd men of the period, wrote in Dec 14 Chicago Tribune "If Gans was trying last night then I don't know much about the game." Such uproar occurred because of the obvious dive that Chiacago's Mayor Harrison banned boxing in the city, a ban that lasted well into the next decade."

    Now, here is a copy of the fight http://youtube.com/watch?v=DeQGaNDNi78

    Now the film quality isn't the greatest but to me McGovern appears to land some solid punches which put Gans down and Gans appears to be genuinely hurt. In addition, if Gans intention was to purposely lose by KO, why didn't he stay down after one of the earlier knockdowns? By rising time and time again, (in McGovern's path who stood immediately over top of him) he put himself in legitimate risk.

    Real or Fake? Be the judge.
    Last edited by 10-8; 08-31-2006 at 04:47 PM.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    I am frustrated because I can’t seem to master the cut and paste features in our listserv. I have several articles about Gans-McGovern, including two by George Siler that have his detailed comments about the bout. Siler never says that Gans took a dive. He does say that Gans didn’t appear to be trying, as quoted in 10-8’s post. But Siler goes on to speculate that Gans “may have been afraid of Terry or he may have been weakened by the body blows he received. . .”. Siler wrote that “Joe appeared frightened, but only he can say whether he was or not.” “McGovern,” he wrote, “fought as expected,” attacking aggressively, reaching Gans with hard blow shows, but having difficultly reaching Gans’ jaw. Chicago Tribune, 12/14/1900 p. 4. In another article, Siler cited McGovern’s hard body shots and Gans’ comment after the right that “the first body blow took his breath away and made him think of things other than fighting.” Siler also said that Gans “looked scared” and “turned ashen” after the first blow to the jaw. He said that Gans seemed to go down from leg-weariness, perhaps due to the body blows received, and not so much from the force of the headshots landed by McGovern. Yet, “[t]he blow which sent him down for the count was a short right-hand jolt under the chin and may have affected him. At least, I took it for granted that it was hard enough to have upset him.” He concluded that Gans “acted ‘dopey,’ looked scared to death, and his every effort was of the weakest order imaginable.” Chicago Tribune 12/16/1900 p. 17.

    There you have it from the follow who was closest to the action.

    I wish I could figure out how to post the articles.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Obviously I meant "hard body blows," not "hard body shows."

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    I dont know but the first fall Gan's takes, looks like a free fall. Hard to fake falling from up right and landing on your ass without even putting a hand out.
    McGovern sure looks hell bent for leather. I think it would be easy for two fighters of this caliber to make a "Barney " look better.

    Iskigoe

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    I had a hard buying that first knockdown around the 5:35 mark of the 8:57 clip. It's tough for me to tell whether Gans may have caught a punch earlier that put him on queer street, but it looks to me that McGoverns left misses it's mark and his arm loops around the back of Gans neck and the next thing you know Gans is falling down backward on his butt. I didn't see enough to put him down there, but I'd love to hear others perceptions of this.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmoyle
    I had a hard buying that first knockdown around the 5:35 mark of the 8:57 clip. It's tough for me to tell whether Gans may have caught a punch earlier that put him on queer street, but it looks to me that McGoverns left misses it's mark and his arm loops around the back of Gans neck and the next thing you know Gans is falling down backward on his butt. I didn't see enough to put him down there, but I'd love to hear others perceptions of this.
    I'm in agreement 100% with your take on the first KD, although to me Gans had been hurt earlier and that shot although not solid was enough to put the already hurt Gans down.

    After the 2nd KD in the first round presumably at the bell, Siler tries to walk Gans to the corner and Gans pulls his arm away and tries to walk towards McGovern like he's disoriented and unaware the round is over. In the second round some of McGovern's head punches land cleanly. With McGovern's power, I can't see Gans 'letting' McGovern land head shots to try and make it look more 'real'.

    To me, Gans got hurt early and never quite recovered against the swarming hard hitting McGovern. No neutral corner or mandatory 8 count allowed McGovern to hammer Gans back down every time he tried to get up.

    I think it was a legit KO.
    Last edited by 10-8; 08-31-2006 at 08:28 PM.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    In addition to the film, you have to pursue the circumstantial evidence. The newspaper accounts of the time indicate that many of the spectators at the fight thought that Gans faked it. (Some did, however, believe McGovern's body attack overwhelmed Gans, and set him up for the knockout.)

    More important, the day before the fight, the odds suddenly shifted to McGovern, and you couldn't find any Gans money. The newspapers tell us that African-Americans, the day before the fight, began trying to lay big bets on McGovern. And, there were accounts of Gans staying out carousing in bars the night before the fight.

    By itself, the fact that Gans later claimed he threw the fight is pretty meaningless to me. Plenty of fighters have blamed embarrassing losses on the fact that they "threw" the fight. Witness Jack Johnson's statements about losing to Willard. Except, in the case of Gans, there is circumstantial evidence to back it up.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    I think it's clearly a fake just like I feel Langford carried Ketchel. However, I thank you for finding that amazing footage.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Which this is from another thread that I made about McGovern several months ago about this issue, which I think the knockout was legit:

    I think a lot of people have a hard time admitting that Gans could be cold-cocked as he was so early, but it's not like it hasn't happened before and by lesser fighters than McGovern.

    Unless I am forgetting something that I have read in the past, or I just haven't read it, Gans is the only person that made the claim that the bout was a fake...McGovern knew nothing about it and though some people suspected that a couple of McGovern's people knew about it there is nothing really factual to back the claim. Gans may very well have took a dive, but for someone taking a dive he took a lot of unnecessary vicious punches and there is no denying that McGovern certainly hit him with some bombs and McGovern could punch like no other fighter his size. Personally, I think it was a legit knockout!

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    Thank-you Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    Which this is from another thread that I made about McGovern several months ago about this issue, which I think the knockout was legit:

    I think a lot of people have a hard time admitting that Gans could be cold-cocked as he was so early, but it's not like it hasn't happened before and by lesser fighters than McGovern.

    Unless I am forgetting something that I have read in the past, or I just haven't read it, Gans is the only person that made the claim that the bout was a fake...McGovern knew nothing about it and though some people suspected that a couple of McGovern's people knew about it there is nothing really factual to back the claim. Gans may very well have took a dive, but for someone taking a dive he took a lot of unnecessary vicious punches and there is no denying that McGovern certainly hit him with some bombs and McGovern could punch like no other fighter his size. Personally, I think it was a legit knockout!
    This is my reasoning exactly. All of the "fixed fight" stories seem to come from people associated with Gans. I would like to know what McGovern and his associates had to say. I bet I can guess.

    McGovern was a great pound for pound fighter and fearsome puncher so scoring a legit KO, even over the great Gans shouldn't be that hard to digest. It happens in boxing.

    Great fighters can get cold-cocked (Carter-Griffith). Even the 'Old Master'.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    I rewatched it and think your kidding yourself.

    Gans fought and defeated far bigger and better fighters than McGovern who was much smaller. To say he was cold cocked is a joke. For the first two thirds of the first round Joe does not even throw a punch. In fact, in the whole fight he does not throw ten punches. McGovern was no 122 pound version of Henry Armstrong or Roberto Duran. He was so wild and crude he would look like a club fighter today. He looks and fights like a midget Firpo. Yet here some of us are here trying to justify an obvious dive, one that was not only discussed by Gans but so controversial in it's day Tex Rickard almost did not match Gans with Nelson because of it.

    Watch the clip. Gans gets dropped 9 times. When the fight is finally stopped he walks right over to McGovern ramrod straight and shakes his hand.

    Please.
    Last edited by HE Grant; 09-02-2006 at 03:32 PM.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    >>>McGovern was a great pound for pound fighter and fearsome puncher so scoring a legit KO, even over the great Gans shouldn't be that hard to digest. It happens in boxing.<<<

    It happened to Gans against lesser opposition than McGovern...both Frank Erne and George McFadden turned the trick, which I think Gans later stated that he also tanked the Erne bout, supposedly, though I may be wrong about that, but "Elbows" McFadden certainly did the trick and I don't think there were any claims that that bout was not on the level.

    I think Gans was the best lightweight ever, number one ahead of Leonard and Duran, but on December 13, 1900, he was knocked out cleanly and legit in the bout with McGovern! McGovern was at the very top of his game and the bout occurred during a stretch where McGovern was simply unbeatable and he looked invincible...in fact his only losses at that point were DQ's occurring basically during his first year a fighting and he certainly avenged the DQ to Callahan.

    If not for the knockdown he suffered against the hard punching Oscar Gardner early in 1900 McGovern would have been almost super-human to the sporting public, which he was almost perceived to be any way and although Gardner scored a solid knockdown in the 1st round, McGovern quickly recovered and punished Gardener for two round until putting him down for good in the 3rd. McGovern just simply tore through the very best fighters, all the top bantamweights and featherweights as well as a couple of the best lightweight and he had faced expertly skilled fighters in the mode of Gans.

    McGovern pretty much destroyed George Dixon and although Dixon was older and coming to the end of his career he was still the man and still a very dangerous opponent as he showed when he went on after losing to McGovern to give Abe Attell, Benny Yanger and a slew of other top featherweights all they could handle yet McGovern just pretty destroyed him.

    Then you had the likes of Harry Forbes a slick and very skilled fighter, who would go on to hold either the featherweight, or lightweight title and McGovern disposed of Forbes twice; Casper Leon, who had several great battles with Jimmy Barry giving as good as he received as well as many other great fights with the best bantamweights in the world winning a lot more than he lost; Pedlar Palmer, the best that Europe had and a very, very skilled fighter who many expected would give McGovern a boxing lesson yet McGovern annihilated Palmer to gain recognition of Bantamweight champion of the world and this was when McGovern was really hitting his prime and he would finish out 1899 with 9 straight knockouts over mostly top flight opposition.

    Of course Dixon was his first go in 1900 and with the beating he put on Dixon he gained recognition as Featherweight champion of the world and would defend it against other very skilled fighters such as Eddie Santry, Joe Bernstein and Frank Erne giving each as solid a beating as the men ever took in the ring.

    With all the top-notch, highly-skilled fighters that McGovern just basically walked right through and with the easy time that he had against the like of Dixon, Forbes, Santry, Palmer and Erne it should be pretty easy for anyone to be able to see that McGovern was the kind of fighter that no other fighter would ever have to “tank” a bout in order for McGovern to get the victory…even the most skilled of fighters, such as Gans, none were immune to McGovern when he was at his best and after watching the fight I think it is pretty clear that McGovern scored the knockout without any help from Gans.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    >>>I rewatched it and think your kidding yourself.<<<


    What did you watch it on a cell phone, or on one of those portable four-inch T.V.?


    >>>Gans fought and defeated far bigger and better fighters than McGovern who was much smaller.<<<

    Really? Better than McGovern…who would you consider to be far better than McGovern that Gans beat? As far as Gans being much larger, well, McGovern was 5’ 4”, Gans was 5’ 6”…McGovern’s weight went from 112 to 127 during his career and Gans was most of the time between 130 and 138 throughout his career…he was 133 for the McGovern bout and McGovern was 124 for the bout, so where is this “much smaller” McGovern?


    >>>To say he was cold cocked is a joke.<<<

    Up to the first knockdown both men threw plenty of punches and each landed some pretty good shots (The best shots that Gans landed were right uppercuts, McGovern cut loose with both hands) and the first knockdown McGovern nailed Gans with a left hook around the temple and Gans went down like he had been shot…if that wasn’t cold-cocked then what would you call cold-cocked? Not to mention that there were two, or three instances where the fighters were out of sight for a good three to five seconds!


    >>>For the first two thirds of the first round Joe does not even throw a punch. In fact, in the whole fight he does not throw ten punches.<<<

    He threw several punches…it’s hard to see from the quality of the film, but both men were throwing and both men were landing. It wasn't a barn-burner, but I counted 27 punches that Gans threw before the first knockdown and that first knockdown obviously chilled Gans and he was not able to recover from it as McGovern just overwhelmed him after that and Gans was simply unable to do anything.


    >>>McGovern was no 122 pound version of Henry Armstrong or Roberto Duran. He was so wild and crude he would look like a club fighter today. He looks and fights like a midget Firpo.<<<

    That’s ridiculous! Not only was he on the level of some of the all-time greats, McGovern was above most greats as the details of his career clearly show. He wasn't the most skilled fighter, but he did have good skills when he had to use them, but in most instances he just overwhelmed his opposition with hard lefts and rights to the head and body of whoever was in front of him and he was far from being just a crude slugger...he was certainly a slugger, but he threw correct, level punches in combination and got great leverage with his punches.

    McGovern not only beat crude sluggers, he beat every kind of fighter there was…he beat stylists…he beat boxer-punchers…he beat brawlers…he beat them all usually in a very devastating manner. McGovern was no 122 pound version of Armstrong and Duran…Duran and Armstrong were bigger versions of Terry McGovern!!!!

    >>>Yet here some of us are here trying to justify an obvious dive, one that was not only discussed by Gans but so controversial in it's day Tex Rickard almost did not match Gans with Nelson because of it.<<<

    Obvious dive…sorry, but the only thing obvious about the fight was that middle way through the first McGovern nails Gans will a solid left hook which drops Gans hard and of which he was never able to recover from and it is obvious that McGovern completely overwhelmed Gans, just as he did ever other fighter up to that point.

    As has been mentioned, Gans made the claim yet it’s funny that no one in McGovern’s camp knew anything about the supposed “fix.”

    >>>Watch the clip. Gans gets dropped 9 times. When the fight is finally stopped he walks right over to McGovern ramrod straight and shakes his hand.<<<

    When the fight stops McGovern is in the center of the ring and Gans rises, in the middle of the ring, they shake hands and Gans walks to his corner…Gans doesn’t walk anywhere except to his corner and from the quality of the film no one can see it well enough to say that Gans was “ramrod straight.”

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    I completely disagree with you.

    First off, watch the tape. Gans does nothing.

    Secondly I'd rate guys like Jack Blackburn and Sam Langford slightly over McGovern.

    Third if McGovern was 5'4" it was on stilts. He was more like 5'2".

    Skill, again watch the film. He was a brawler. He was wild and winging punches like he was in a tough guy fight.

    It was a dive.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    I've watched the fight many times and the film is pretty horrible, but if you watch closely you can count the punches pretty well and you can see the punches that land...especially the heavy shots that got Gans reeling, but if you watch closely you can see some of the good uppercuts that Gans landed too. If that bout was a fake, then so was the Johnson-Willard bout, which like Gans, Johnson was the person making the claim of fake, but it's kind of odd for a fix to be in and one of the fighters know nothing about it...it was nothing but Gans wanting to build on his own legend even more so than what it was by saying that he threw the fight. He said he threw the fight with Frank Erne also, which also is very odd considering that Gans took a pretty solid shellacking for 11 rounds...McGovern knocked him out legit.

    Also, Gans didn't beat Langford...he beat Blackburn, but the way you talked it up it would seem that Gans beat a slew of fighters that were better than McGovern, yet all you could name was two fighters and one of those was a lose, but the two, one is considered by many to be the greatest fighter P4P, or certainly top 5 and Blackburn...well he too was an all-time great, so do you think maybe you might be speaking a little of what you actually don't know as it pertains to Terry McGovern, which although it may sound it, I don't mean that in a smart-ass way.

    As to McGovern being nothing but a crude slugger...I'd certainly recommend that you read through all of his bouts and look up the views of a lot of the top sports writers and boxing people of McGovern's time...a lot of which can be found in the Brooklyn Eagle website. McGovern was certainly no stylist, but he was far, far more than just a crude slugger that wailed away at an opponent!

    And McGovern was listed at 5' 3" for his first bout with Young Corbett and I have several other articles that lists his measurements, but I'd have to search them out, but he was between 5' 3" and 5' 4".

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    An interesting tidbit I learned while re-reading the newspaper accounts of the fight was that terms of the six-round contest called for Gans to knock McGovern out or take the loser's end of the purse. So, Gans could only win by a knockout.

    That said, I don't see how any of you can reach a definitive conclusion about the fight from watching that grainy old piece of film.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern- Gans Really A Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by 10-8
    Joe Gans admitted to being involved in two fakes in his career, the Terry McGovern and Jimmy Britt fights.

    The following quote is from from the Monte Cox artcle on Gans:

    "Gans went down several times against McGovern without being hit. The Dec 14 Chicago Record Herald reported that the “Bout Has Suspicious Look.” The fight's referee George Siler, one of the best and most well known 3rd men of the period, wrote in Dec 14 Chicago Tribune "If Gans was trying last night then I don't know much about the game." Such uproar occurred because of the obvious dive that Chiacago's Mayor Harrison banned boxing in the city, a ban that lasted well into the next decade."

    Now, here is a copy of the fight http://youtube.com/watch?v=DeQGaNDNi78

    Now the film quality isn't the greatest but to me McGovern appears to land some solid punches which put Gans down and Gans appears to be genuinely hurt. In addition, if Gans intention was to purposely lose by KO, why didn't he stay down after one of the earlier knockdowns? By rising time and time again, (in McGovern's path who stood immediately over top of him) he put himself in legitimate risk.

    Real or Fake? Be the judge.
    Edit: Originally, I had posted that I thought Gans went in the tank; but that was off of memory of the footage. I didn't realize I could access motion footage on this computer, so forgive me.

    Just watched it; and that's the first time I've seen all of both rounds...thanks, 10-8.

    Now, that being said....judging from the footage, I think it's entirely possible the knock-out was real and Gans claimed it to be a dive to save his reputation.

    The knock-down in round 1 that started it all appeared to catch Gans behind the ear, which could affect his equalibrium. In round two, the punch that got Gans in trouble after the original knock-down off of a left hook, seemed legitimate...(an uppercut) and enough to set him up for McGovern's overhand right which put him to the canvas. Also, it's not impossible to believe he got up, devoid of his senses ala Trevor Berbick against Tyson, or Zab Judah against Tszyu; but had enough experience that his instincts hid it until he was hit again. What we saw in this contest in Round 2, very well couuld have been akin to what we saw in the first Johanson-Patterson fight.

    If I had never heard/read the story of Gans throwing the fight and this was the first time I saw the footage......I would have chalked it up as a real knock-out, for whatever that's worth.
    Last edited by K-DOGG; 09-04-2006 at 11:35 AM.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    If its a fake I bet you cant find a worse one.

    Iskigoe

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    It doesnt look like anybody would fake a fight and take right hand shots from Terry Mcgovern on purpose. Terry knocked out all kinds of guys and really was a three divison champ of sorts koing Erne in a non title bout. Terry is ranked high by all who saw him and didnt need help to ko anybody he hits. Gans was a party guy and who knows what kinds of shape he was in. Gans like many fighters doesnt like to admit he loses.
    I think this jazz about all these great black fighters of the past throwing fights to white guys is alot of bunk. Look at the records of the great ones-They dont LOSE TOO OFTEN TO ANYBODY, LEAST OF ALL WHITE GUYS.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocky111
    It doesnt look like anybody would fake a fight and take right hand shots from Terry Mcgovern on purpose. Terry knocked out all kinds of guys and really was a three divison champ of sorts koing Erne in a non title bout. Terry is ranked high by all who saw him and didnt need help to ko anybody he hits. Gans was a party guy and who knows what kinds of shape he was in. Gans like many fighters doesnt like to admit he loses.
    I think this jazz about all these great black fighters of the past throwing fights to white guys is alot of bunk. Look at the records of the great ones-They dont LOSE TOO OFTEN TO ANYBODY, LEAST OF ALL WHITE GUYS.

    I agree, Rocky. I always took it for granted that the fight was a dive, but I have to say that it looks legit to me.

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    SHeesh

    I just watched this like 3 times in a row now.

    How ANYONE can come away after looking at that footage proclaiming what is legit and what is not and what landed cleanly and what didn't, must have better peepers than me.

    The first knockdopwn punch? How anyone can CLEARLY state that the punch landed cleanly or CLEARLY state that it missed, is beyond me. After watching it a few times now, it SEEMS like the punch went around the back of Gans's head. But it is SO unclear in the shot, that in no way can I definitively endorse that theory.

    If anything, I'd say the film muddies this even more for me.

    Hawk

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Amen to that, Hawk!

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Well the first knockout certainly looks to me like it landed high on the head close to the temple, but it's the way that Gans went down that makes it look nothing but legit to me.

    A fighters body does not just go completely rigid and he does not fall backwards in the rigid, frozen state that Gans did! A knockout has a tendency to knock a fighter into a frozen state, which as anyone can see from the manner that Gans goes down...he certainly went down in a frozen state.

    All of the fighters that I have ever seen who it looked as though they went down clearly voluntarily in every case that comes to mind the said fighter not only bent his knee's to go to the canvas, but the rest of his body was bending as well...Gans fell backwards like a striaght board and went down very similar to the manner that Herol Graham went down when Julian Jackson nearly knocked his head down.

    As to viewing the film...it is very poor, but you can get a little clearer view by darkening the picture.

    For many years I was certain that it was a fake due to all the articles that writers had written about it which they always focus on how fake it is, yet I cannot really recall and solid ;logic to back the claim other than that Gans said he threw the fight. I've read many articles about it, but after watching the fight several times I am certain that it was a legit knockout!

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    BD

    I think your first sentence sums up everything that I have a problem with in viewing this footage: "Looks Like". You can't tell definitively.

    Heck Robinson Graziano is crystal clear and I STILL read that Rocky's dropping of Ray was clean. Watch the bout (and with this fight you actually CAN see what is happening) and you see that Graziano MISSES Ray's chin/head and the punch goes around his neck and he pulls Ray down (very similar to Hagler Roldan).

    Gan MCGovern is far to grainy and jumpy and plain unclear to pick apart the punch similar to what I just did with the aforementioned bout.

    Looks Like. But that's all one can really go out on a limb on.

    Hawk

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    Re: BD

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    I think your first sentence sums up everything that I have a problem with in viewing this footage: "Looks Like". You can't tell definitively.

    Heck Robinson Graziano is crystal clear and I STILL read that Rocky's dropping of Ray was clean. Watch the bout (and with this fight you actually CAN see what is happening) and you see that Graziano MISSES Ray's chin/head and the punch goes around his neck and he pulls Ray down (very similar to Hagler Roldan).

    Gan MCGovern is far to grainy and jumpy and plain unclear to pick apart the punch similar to what I just did with the aforementioned bout.

    Looks Like. But that's all one can really go out on a limb on.

    Hawk
    Yeah, but, man-- it sure LOOKS like Gans is getting his ass kicked.

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    I hear you E

    And I'm not sold one way or another on this.

    But on the other hand, it sure LOOKED LIKE Willie Pep was getting his ass kicked by Lulu Perez as well.

    Looks can be....well you know.

    Hawk

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    Re: I hear you E

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    And I'm not sold one way or another on this.

    But on the other hand, it sure LOOKED LIKE Willie Pep was getting his ass kicked by Lulu Perez as well.

    Looks can be....well you know.

    Hawk
    Well, no question that Pep got clocked. There, the question is whether Pep threw the fight by sticking his chin out and ALLOWING himself to get clocked.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    >>>I think your first sentence sums up everything that I have a problem with in viewing this footage: "Looks Like". You can't tell definitively.<<<

    Well from what can be seen it looks more legit than not...it certainly looks a lot better than the articles that say it isn't legit! The only reason I am saying it "looks like" is because others seem to question it...to me it's pretty obvious, especially the manner in which Gans goes down...as I said before...a fighters body does not go rigid and his knee-joints simply do not lock up unless they have been short-circuited by a solid, on the mark punch to the head...which no matter what anyone might try to claim...McGovern sure as hell could punch as well as any featherweight in history!


    As to Pep...there have been claims that he threw the fight with Tommy Collins, but like the McGovern-Gans I think that is incorrect also. Now if it had happened against fighters of lesser punching power it would be easier to believe, but like McGovern, Collins could punch as well as about any fighter. Just like the Jack Johnson claim that he "threw" the fight with Willard, I would bet that the biggest percentage of fights that have ever been called fake are in fact legit. Someone mentioned earlier that fighters of that caliber simply do not want to admit defeat, even when it is crystal clear that they lost and like with the Gans-McGovern bout, I would bet that is the reason of most "fake" claims...the losing fighter just simply does not want to concede that he lost!
    Last edited by BDeskins; 09-07-2006 at 12:40 AM.

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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    A number of so-called fixes may have been legitimate stoppages.
    I have written about the Salt Lake Tribune coverage of the
    first bout between Fireman Jim Flynn and Jack Dempsey in
    which Dempsey was knocked out in the first round. Yes,
    events leading up to the bout and ringsiders' opinions
    makes one think that it is very possible that Dempsey
    went "into the tank." However, it also was reported
    that a hard left put Dempsey for the count.

    - Chuck Johnston

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    Was this JUST Gans'

    saying it was a fake? The fallout from that bout was pretty convincing and pretty immediate. It was not like you had Gans pulling a Jack Johnson several years later.

    The reprecusions of the bout that obviously everyone believed to have been a fake resulted in Chicago not staging and prize fights for another 26 years. This doesn't sound like a pride or bragging rights issue to me. At the time there was sufficient enough outrage at what transpired that there was IMMEDIATE fallout from it.

    This is not a situation where "in Hindsight" it came out that there was a (possible) fix in. It was immediate and in the minds of those making the decisions of what they saw, it was also obvious.

    I certainly CAN'T say one way or another as to whether this was a fix or not becuase the "evidence" is in no way shape or form, clear or conclusive.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 09-07-2006 at 10:58 AM.

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