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Thread: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

  1. #121
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    And an even more scathing commentary by George Siler the day after the fight in the Chicago Tribune (12/14/1900, p. 4):


  2. #122
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by iskigoe
    dan and raylawpc

    Thanks for sharing, its great for us with no collection to see the real thing.
    stuff like makes you glad to be a member of cbz

    Iskigoe
    You are welcome, Iskigoe. But the person to thank is Frank B., who spent time with me on the phone today teaching me how to upload these articles.
    Last edited by raylawpc; 04-11-2007 at 06:41 PM.

  3. #123
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Siler does not have the benefit of Utube.

    He's wrong on the first KD which was a left hook delivered behind the right ear. All the KDs were blows to the head with Gans on shaky legs the 2nd round, so again, Siler as wrong. Many head blows also landed as Gans was in retreat without KDing him. McGovern had no problems reaching his head which is what won him the bout.

    There were 2 significant body blows, a left and right delivered to the pit of Gans stomache before the first KD, but most of McGovern's body work was in very close quarters with little leverage.

    This is 1900 Chicago. Baseball players were poorly paid and taking payments from gamblers under grandstands. Many states either banned boxing or had an exhibition "ND" rule on the books where no decision could be rendered. Big swatters like McGovern were scary to the authorities, who likely along with Siler had bets out they lost money on.

    If those folks wanted to see a real fix to compare, it's a shame they couldn't review Ali/Liston 2 or Weaver/Dokes 1.

    Maybe Gans took a dive, but he did land some good shots in the 1st round which is risky in a fixed fight. He ended up chosing to fight a defensive fight that didn't work. The body language says he was fighting back with all he had. It just wasn't enough that day.

  4. #124
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    You are welcome, Iskigoe. But the person to thank is Frank B., who spent time with me on the phone today teaching me how to upload these articles.
    Don't get me involve in anything, and if you do I'll plead the 5th.

    LOL

    Frank

  5. #125
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto Aqui
    Siler does not have the benefit of Utube.

    He's wrong on the first KD which was a left hook delivered behind the right ear. All the KDs were blows to the head with Gans on shaky legs the 2nd round, so again, Siler as wrong. Many head blows also landed as Gans was in retreat without KDing him. McGovern had no problems reaching his head which is what won him the bout.

    There were 2 significant body blows, a left and right delivered to the pit of Gans stomache before the first KD, but most of McGovern's body work was in very close quarters with little leverage.

    This is 1900 Chicago. Baseball players were poorly paid and taking payments from gamblers under grandstands. Many states either banned boxing or had an exhibition "ND" rule on the books where no decision could be rendered. Big swatters like McGovern were scary to the authorities, who likely along with Siler had bets out they lost money on.

    If those folks wanted to see a real fix to compare, it's a shame they couldn't review Ali/Liston 2 or Weaver/Dokes 1.

    Maybe Gans took a dive, but he did land some good shots in the 1st round which is risky in a fixed fight. He ended up chosing to fight a defensive fight that didn't work. The body language says he was fighting back with all he had. It just wasn't enough that day.
    Roberto: Are you seriously contending that Siler wrote those articles the way that he did because he lost money on the fight?

  6. #126
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    I'm saying that any of those folks discussed could have had money on the fight. Same deal today so remember that when you read about rulings or newspaper reports.

    If Siler was a referee in the fight biz, then he was no Simon Pure, and obviously had some flawed analysis of the fight for whatever reason.

  7. #127
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Okay. How is it obvious that he had a flawed analysis of the fight?

  8. #128
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by kikibalt
    Don't get me involve in anything, and if you do I'll plead the 5th.

    LOL

    Frank
    Ha! Fair enough. If anyone liked the articles, thank Frank. If not, blame me.

  9. #129
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Frank take another bow with out you this site is just another chat room.

    not to knock the chaters all the best are here.

    Back to McGovern. if you look at his record he has many early ko. While GAns is a much slower starter. If I was at the fight Id want my money back the way Gans was floping around. iF they had the advantage of replay they might have relized they just saw a great banger clock the old master. thats whats boxing all about . styles

  10. #130
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    Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by iskigoe
    Frank take another bow with out you this site is just another chat room.

    not to knock the chaters all the best are here.
    Ok iskigone, I took a bow and my wife was looking at me with a funny look on her face, and she ask me " what the hell are doing?" so I told her I was taking a bow, so she tells me, "you really gone over the edge now".

    Frank

  11. #131
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Well ray...you posted in the other thread that you disagreed with me in my commenting that Siler was considered an honest man...you seem to feel that he was rather dishonest...so believing that how could you accept anything he says?

    I have put together most all that I have pertaining to the bout, now I just need to sift through everything and see what comes out, but I most certainly will not just stick to quotes, or writings that would favor my belief...I'll post all aspects and the a person can make the decision themselves.

    But Siler is often wrong in what he wrote the day after about certain aspects of the fight...such as the body blows...McGovern landed hard to the head and the reactions that Gans had from the shots were not the actions of a person faking...a person faking does not completely collapse as if he had been shot...no that takes the brain being short-circuited by a vicious punch and Gans went down like being shot and when he rose he was on terribly, very terribly shaky legs.

    The way that Gans fought in the very beginning...watch the fight versus Kid Herman...Gans fought the exact same way early in that bout. Fact is, Gans was typically a very slow starter and McGovern was a fireplug as soon as the bell gonged and McGovern knocked out lightweights just as easily as he KO'd bantamweights, so there is no doubt about McGovern having the power to KO Gans.

    And usually in a faked fight both participants are aware if the fix, but in all of the bouts which Gans claims to have faked in...none of the other fighters ever knew anything about a fix.
    Last edited by BDeskins; 04-12-2007 at 03:19 PM.

  12. #132
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Barry, if I was serious, what did you think the "" meant? (One of these days I will learn that these s apparently don't convey to others what I think they convey.) I never said he was dishonest. I said Jim Corbett and Tom Sharkey might because Siler happened to call fights that they lost, and they were quite vocal about what they perceived as his poor refereeing skills.

    In fact, I think Siler was the best referee of his day, and one of the outstanding boxing writers of his generation.

    BTW, I have never said that Gans took a dive. How could I know? I was born 54 years too late to see the fight, or know anyone who saw it. I am not taking a definitive position one way or the other except to say that there are a lot of questions about the fight's legitimacy. And you'll note that the clipping dated 12/15/1900 contains quotes from men at the fight who thought Gans was on the level.

    Here is where I do disagree with you, however:

    1. As I've written before, I don't think you can conclude anything one way or the other from that grainy old piece of film.

    2. I think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence - all recited above by various posters - that the fight was a fix.

    3. I put a LOT of weight in what Siler wrote - he was a former fighter, and an experienced referee. He was in the ring with the fighters and saw everything from a distance of not more than a few feet. At the time, he obviously had a lot of doubts about it, and he later called it a "fake."

    I look forward to your article.
    Last edited by raylawpc; 04-12-2007 at 07:03 PM.

  13. #133
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    Re: Was Mcgovern-gans Really A Fake?

    Seeing the footage cemented for me what I had always suspected - that fight was a dive.

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