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Thread: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

  1. #121
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Actually, I'm one of the few that felt Bowe looked good before and after the first Holyfield fight. In fact, despite being a big Holyfield fan, I placed a substantial wager on the underdog Bowe before their first fight because I was so high on Bowe that I thought that he'd not only defeat Holyfield, but stop him. Luckily, I only bet Bowe to win.

    This is the guy who was WAY too powerful for Lionel Butler (KO2)(Butler gave a lot of guys a tough time), Bert Cooper (KO2)(and no, Bert was not on drugs for that one, and actually looked pretty good in the 1st round). Cooper gave Evander and Moorer hell. Bowe beat the crap out of Pinklon Thomas, stopped normally unstoppable guys in Garing Lane and Everett Martin, KO’d an in shape and motivated Biggs. Yes his fight with Tubbs was close, but Tony was a seasoned veteran. I also thought his fight with Coetzer, a durable and strong guy, showed that Bowe could maintain a good pace in a somewhat grueling fight. Let’s face it, Bowe’s work rate was amongst the best I’ve ever seen for a man that size, and he knew how to fight on the inside, had big power in both hands, and from the outside had a strong and consistent jab.

    His blowouts of Dokes and Ferguson were impressive as well, for those guys weren’t that easily taken out – at least not that fast.

    Then he dismantled and obliterated Hide and Gonzalez and made Donald fight purely for survival. He was so damn tough that he made Golota essentially mentally quit, TWICE!

    I still think Lennox would have had his number and taken him out, which is why Newman avoided Lennox like the plague.
    Last edited by apollack; 09-16-2006 at 06:58 PM.

  2. #122
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Evander was 31 and slightly past his best against Bowe the first time out. He was in his prime for Buster Douglas. However, he was still close to it. A very solid argument can be made that the best Bowe beats the best Holyfield.

  3. #123
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Bowe didn't do much aside from beating Holyfield. This is not enough to rate him highly.

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    actually evander had just turned 30 when he fought riddick bowe the first time and there is NO REASON WHAT SO EVER to believe evander was past his prime vs bowe the first time. thats ridiciculous.


    i think evanders prime was 1988-93

  5. #125
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    If ever a fighter didnt have a clear cut 'prime' - whatever that is - it's Holyfield. He was more up and down than [insert crude joke about Amsterdam prostitute].

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    I think Holy was absolutely superb in the first fight and at his peak. He was just as fast as against Douglas and I thought he was actually stronger. I just think that he was up against a bigger and stronger talented heavyweight and the size was too much for him. I'll ask anyone here that if Bowe was 2 inches shorter and 15 lbs lighter, do they think Evander may have won. I definitely do.
    I know it could never be proved, but Bowe's size was the deciding factor in his dominance over Evander, coupled with his speed and ferocious Jab

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    APOLLACK

    You said pretty much how I felt. Bowe was more impressive than just one fight. Too many of these cantankerous geezers refuse to give credit to anyone who competed in the 80s (unless named Holmes), and anyone who competed in the 90s.

    Bowe clubbed a lot of solid opponents leading up to his title fight, and was head & shoulders above Moorer, Mercer, Morrison, Seldon bact et al. Only Lewis stole his limelight when he crushed Biggs in 3 after he gave Bowe a hard fight, and then obliterated Ruddock.

    Rolling over Dokes & Ferguson the way he did was impressive, IMO. The loss to Holyfield was razor-thin and then even out of shape he always looked like the Boss of the heavies, and was seen as such. Unfortunately because JL Gonzalez went so badly down hill after losing to Bowe, people have forgot how commanding Bowe looked in this fight. And knocking out any version of Holyfield, and coming off the floor to do so, shows heart & big cojonas!

    Yet for all peoples dislike of Big Daddy, he STILL is given the nod over Lewis, who had far better results against same opponents, iced Bowe at the Olympics,and lasted about 100 years longer than Bowe. Weird.

  8. #128
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    APOLLACK

    You said pretty much how I felt. Bowe was more impressive than just one fight. Too many of these cantankerous geezers refuse to give credit to anyone who competed in the 80s (unless named Holmes), and anyone who competed in the 90s.

    Bowe clubbed a lot of solid opponents leading up to his title fight, and was head & shoulders above Moorer, Mercer, Morrison, Seldon batch et al. Only Lewis stole his limelight when he crushed Biggs in 3 after he gave Bowe a hard fight, and then obliterated Ruddock.

    Rolling over Dokes & Ferguson the way he did was impressive, IMO. The loss to Holyfield was razor-thin and then even out of shape he always looked like the Boss of the heavies, and was seen as such. Unfortunately because JL Gonzalez went so badly down hill after losing to Bowe, people have forgot how commanding Bowe looked in this fight. And knocking out any version of Holyfield, and coming off the floor to do so, shows heart & big cojonas!

    Yet for all peoples dislike of Big Daddy, he STILL is given the nod over Lewis, who had far better results against same opponents, iced Bowe at the Olympics,and lasted about 100 years longer than Bowe. Weird.

  9. #129
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    Cantankerous Geezer? Moi?

    At age 39?

    What is the age of those throwing out these monikers? 12?

    Geez, when my 6 year old call me old, I cut her some slack, becuase well, I am. Compared to someone born in the 2000s! And cantankerous? Well hell, she just spilled her milk all over the table. And it wasn't an accident. She was playing with her Icecream trying to make a shake.

    It's one thing if she spills her milk while reaching for the Gray Poupon. But it's another matter entirely, if she's making Milk shakes!

    Now....what were we talking about? It's time for me to take my meds again. And take a nap. Who took my teeth?

    Hawk

  10. #130
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    My buddies who are around 19-21 mock me for being an old timer, at 24. Doesn't help that i have one grey hair at the front of my head that i keep having to cut out.. The guy i work with is 29, nearly 30. I use the majority of their material against me & use it on him. His days at work mainly consist of ridicule.

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Bowe was a good fighter that flamed out too quickly to be considered for much more than being a good fighter that flamed out too quickly.

    Sincerely,
    cantakerous old geezer

  12. #132
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    Nurse!

    Thumper's stealing my Pills!

    Hawk

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Hawk.............I'm taking Damnital

  14. #134
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Given this discussion, I'd be curious to see people's heavyweight rankings from, say, 1988 forward. I'd make it like this:

    1-Lennox Lewis
    2-Riddick Bowe
    3-Evander Holyfield
    4-Mike Tyson
    5-Ike Ibeabuchi
    6-Vitaly Klitschko

    After that, it becomes a little hazy. I suppose David Tua, Michael Moorer, Wladimir Klitschko and Chris Byrd all need to be considered, along with Tony Tucker, Oliver McCall, Razor Ruddock, Buster Douglas and the two old warriors, George Foreman and Larry Holmes. [James Toney and Sam Peter disqualified each other last week.]

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    After careful consideration, I determined that it gets hazy right after the colon (as in punctuation).

    I suppose Lewis had the tools, but geez, he got cold cocked by Rahman for pity sake.

    I'm asking my doctor to switch me to fukitol, I heard it was a little stronger.

  16. #136
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Quote Originally Posted by thumper3852
    After careful consideration, I determined that it gets hazy right after the colon (as in punctuation).
    Heh. Good one.

  17. #137
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Tyson
    Holyfield
    Lewis
    Bowe
    Klits

  18. #138
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Bowe certainly does not get the nod over Lewis due to his fairly unimpressive resume aside from Holyfield. He lacks impressive wins over top fighters aside from Holyfield. People who overrate him should watch the Golota fights some time.

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    As career goes yes I think Holy's was better than Bowes', he definitely accomplished more and lasted longer, but I think the original POST was on each fighters absolute peak. And Holy's peak to me was either V Douglas or Bowe. Against Bowe he was fantastic. It still meant he lost because Bowe was just that bit better all the time. Bowe beats him every time on their peaks no matter what way Holy chooses to fight. He loses from distance because of Riddicks physical advantages and loses inside due to Bowes' strength and surprisingly good inside work.

    Lewis V Bowe peak to peak is probably the most eagerly dreamed fight ever. I think I would pick It as my number 1 fantasy match. Two such huge powerful men, with all that 'hate' and rivalry. Bowe's speed and Power V Lewis' pure power. It's a 50-50 split, whoever lands first big wins as both had suspect chins. Lewis probably more so. I think I'd bet on Bowe. The funny thing is that in their Seoul encounter, Bowe was beating the shit out of Lewis until he was caught with a few heavy shots, but in tHe pros, that would be nothing unusual. To use the Seoul fight as any indicator as to why Lewis would win is so far off the mark. Bowe was actually still very capable of continuing and even winning, but the amateur ranks pay a lot more attention when a fighter takes a couple of hard shots. Much more premature, and rightly SO!!.

  20. #140
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    Bowe/lewis 88

    As wildly inaccurate statements go, Bowe "beating the shit out of Lewis" in their gold medal match is up there.

    Its right there on Youtube now if anyone wants to check it. Both men had their moments in rd 1 but it was LEWIS who was able to hurt Bowe everytime he landed solid.

    Judging by Bowes bizarre reactions when recieving the refs counts, i.e. holding his hands up as if he'd won, i'd say he was pretty buzzed.
    Last edited by Overhand_Right; 09-19-2006 at 07:56 AM.

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Though he was stunned by the shots, which is only natural, Bowe was more than able to continue. He landed more punches on Lennox and also heavy punches. The amateur game however will not allow fighters continue ater receiving 3-4 heavy blows. In a pro scenario, you can 100% forget about Seoul. Does anyone believe had the rf allowed Bowe continue, he could have just as easily won. I think so

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Though he was stunned by the shots, which is only natural, Bowe was more than able to continue. He landed more punches on Lennox and also heavy punches. The amateur game however will not allow fighters continue ater receiving 3-4 heavy blows. In a pro scenario, you can 100% forget about Seoul. Does anyone believe had the ref allowed Bowe continue, he could have just as easily won. I think so

  23. #143
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    What's with all the double-posts? Are you guys hitting "Post" 10 times within a millisecond?

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Just rewatched the fight in Seoul. Maybe I was a little off. Lewis was probably ahead before the stoppage, but Bowe was definitely holding his own

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Walsh, im with ya that Bowe could have continued, although from my viewing he was only headed for a bludgeoning. Lewis was well on top.

    I agree as pros the fight would have been way more competitive. As Bowe proved v JL Gonzalez, when he was matched with someone he deeply hated, he was a mean bastard. But people forget, so was Lewis. Check the Rahman rematch for how flawless LL could be when 100% focused on destroying his man.

    Obviously i acknowledge JLG is no LL, and Rahman is no Bowe.

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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    The fight is on YouTube...watch it and decide for yourselfs...Bowe was holding his own for sure but he never seemed to bother Lennox...Lewis looked far more mature physically at the time. He looked much stronger. While the bout looked like it was stopped prematurely there was absolutley zero complaint from Bowe. He seemed to be happy to be out of there.

    In the pro's at the top of their game I favor Lennox. He never lost a fight he was mentally prepared for. I think he was the more serious fighter. Bowe proved against Holyfield and Golata that he had a huge heart but he never took his conditioning seriously enough on a consistant basis. Even when trim later in his career he looked flabby and lacked muscle. Lewis was too strong, too hard hitting, too tough mentally.

  27. #147
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Holyfield beat many of his top contemporaries whereas Bowe did not fight the best heavyweights sround aside from Holyfield. Holyfield beat Tyson, Bowe, Moorer and Mercer and lasted the distance vs Lewis twice. Bowe never fought Lewis, Moorer, Tyson, Mercer, etc.

  28. #148
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Bowe's problem was lack of maturity and discipline. After he beat Holyfield the first time he developed momentium. He crushed Dokes and that other guy (forgot for a minute) . He was on his way. Then he simply got fat and lazy and did not train in a proper fashion. He lost the title to Holyfield in a razor thin decision that he never should have lost. He went down from there. I never felt he beat the best Lennox anyway but Bowe did have it going on for a short while and let it fall apart due to lack of maturity. He was a true manchild. Lewis was a man.

  29. #149
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    Great fighters need motivation sometimes. This was all Rock Newman's fault, just like Douglas was King's fault. You don't take a dominant fighter and keep feeding him easy fights and expect him to maintain his motivation, conditioning, and training habits. Too many easy wins on half assed training spiral into a loss that shouldn't have been. It happened to Louis early, Tyson, and Bowe. It was all too easy. By avoiding Lewis, he lost his motivation. He knew he didn't have to give it his best for Dokes and Ferguson. Easy paydays. And he beat them so easily that the ego built and the training waned. Then instead of taking Lewis next like he should have, he goes for Evander next, again. He had beaten up Evander pretty well, dropped him, and knew he was so much bigger. He also saw Evander not look all that good against Alex Stewart, a guy Bowe probably would have stopped in 1 round. So he coasts just a bit, expecting a comfortable victory, and boom, it is a close fight, coupled with the fan man screwing up the fight for literally 20 minutes, and he loses a close decision (which quite frankly I still didn't think he lost when I saw the fight).

    Then after that Bowe comes back and looks very good in a number of fights (JL Gonzalez probably the most vicious fast paced ass beating you'll ever see), and probably was the best heavy in the world at that time, but there never was that perceived as mega fight again. Holyfield yet again, but it was an underrated great fight. Not only was the fight good, but considering how highly rated you all have Evander, and what he did before and since that fight, Bowe deserves a lot more credit than he has received.

    Bowe showed what a lot of people had questioned about him - heart and conditioning. He once again outworked Holy (for the third time) broke him to the body, kept a good pace, and duked it out with him. He did what no one else ever did, and that's hurt him - a guy with one of the best chins in heavyweight history, and drop him (again). Another aspect of Bowe's game that people underestimate is his power - I actually think at his best he hit harder than Tyson - and he could keep it up on a more consistent basis.

    This time Evander chose not to box and move and throw relaxed punches, but fight flat footed, to throw as hard as he could to stop Bowe. HIs strategy was his own fault, and all this heart talk has to stop. This style helped him get a knockdown, but it also prematurely drained him of energy. Anyone who knows how draining trying to be a puncher is, knows what I'm talking about. Still, he was more in that fight than people think. In the 8th round, Holy stunned Bowe yet again. But, Bowe with his heart, like Holmes, fought back when hurt. In attacking and trying to finish Bowe with a hard combo, Holy ran right into a very hard perfectly timed right that had everything Bowe had behind it. That was not a tired Holy at that moment. It was a guy who should have shown the very tough, very hard hitting Bowe more respect, and ran into something trying to finish his man off.

    I don't know about you folks, but I saw Riddick Bowe show more heart and toughness in the Golota fights than ANY HEAVYWEIGHT in history that I've EVER SEEN, and I've seen them all. Not even Ali took that kind of beating, although the first Frazier fight comes awfully close. The guy was plain tough, and despite all the times he was hit and rocked, he kept fighting back hard, and even if he was hit 2 or 3 to one, Bowe's one was still pretty damn hard, and he was still occasionally rocking Golota. That type of fight is so grueling and punishing, that it has to reveal the inner soul of a fighter. Bowe passed the test, Golota did not. To me, Bowe deserves a lot more credit for those fights than people want to give him. Those fights showed that to stop Riddick Bowe, you have to go through holy hell and beyond to do it. And no one ever did.

  30. #150
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    Re: Potentially Incendiary: Overhand Rights All-time Heavyweight Top 10

    "I don't know about you folks, but I saw Riddick Bowe show more heart and toughness than ANY heavyweight in history that I've ever seen and I've seen them all."

    Apollack, I always felt much the same about that. Nobody should question Bowe's heart after those fights. Those were such one-sided beatings yet he still even rallied a few times when he appeared thouroughly pulverized. I think Bowe taking the amount of uansewerd punches he did from a big heavyweight and still standing in there was nothing short of incredible.

    The only heavyweight fight in history, that comes to my mind anyway, where a fighter showed comparable courage under such a one sided beating was Williard in Toledo.

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