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Thread: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

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    Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Tunney saved by Long Count
    By Dick Heller from The Washington Times


    "In the event the man scoring the knockdown does not go to the farthest neutral corner, I will not start the count until he does so. Do you understand that, Champ? ... Jack?"
    -- Referee Dave Barry's prefight instructions

    The rule was relatively new to boxing on the night of Sept. 22, 1927, when heavyweight champion Gene Tunney and the dethroned Jack Dempsey staged their rematch before more than 100,000 screaming meemies at Chicago's Soldier Field. For years, the ferocious Dempsey had stood over fallen opponents, battering them anew as soon as their knees left the canvas. Now, at 32, he was an old dog being forced to learn a new trick.
    A heavyweight title fight was much more significant in those days when each division had a single champion; only the World Series matched it in terms of impact. The New York Times, not known for its coverage of sports, devoted nearly eight of its first nine pages to Tunney-Dempsey II the day after.
    Almost exactly one year earlier in Philadelphia, heavy underdog Tunney had stunned most of America by outboxing Dempsey decisively enough to win all 10 rounds on some scorecards and take his title. Now Jack, unshaven and scowling, was primed to reclaim it. But for the first six rounds, the bout looked like a rerun. Once more, Dempsey couldn't land a solid punch as Tunney, a master boxer, jabbed and ran.
    At one point, the frustrated "Manassa Mauler" gestured toward the champion and begged, "Aw, c'mon and fight!" But Tunney continued to jab, jab, jab until the blood cascaded down Dempsey's face, and he looked like an old man in the ring.
    Then, startlingly, the Long Count happened. Although largely forgotten today, it remains one of boxing's most dramatic moments.
    Less than a minute into the seventh round, Dempsey reached back in time and became the terrible tiger who had destroyed the likes of Jess Willard, Georges Carpentier and Luis Firpo. He landed a right to the jaw and followed with a vicious left hook -- always his best punch -- to the point of his opponent's chin.
    Shuddering and eyes glazing, Tunney crumpled while Dempsey landed several more punches on Gene's way down. As Tunney rested on his haunches, clinging to the middle rope with his left hand, Dempsey hovered over him snarling. The ex-champ had never fought under the new rule.
    Referee Dave Barry rushed over and grabbed Dempsey's arm. "Go to a neutral corner, Jack!" he shouted into the din.
    Growled Dempsey, pushing the ref away: "I stay here!"


    And so he did for what must have seemed an eternity until, reason returning, he retreated to a neutral corner. Meanwhile, Tunney had four to eight extra seconds -- contemporary estimates varied and old films are indecisive -- to regain his senses before Barry started the count.
    Tunney, no dummy, listened carefully and arose at "nine." Getting back on his bicycle, he stayed out of Dempsey's lunging way for the rest of the 10 rounds. Again, the decision was unanimous: "The winnah and still heavyweight champion of the world ..."
    Afterward, Tunney described what he felt after Dempsey landed the left hook: "That's the last thing I remember clearly, although I counted seven [more] blows when I studied the movies. The next thing I remember is telling myself that the distance between my eyes and the canvas was distressingly short. 'You must be down,' I said to myself."
    After one more fight in 1928, Tunney retired as a millionaire at 31. Oddly, however, Dempsey emerged from their bouts as more of a hero than his aloof conqueror. Earlier, his public persona was that of a relentless destroyer in the ring and, in the minds of some, of a wartime slacker who had posed for a publicity photo that showed him "working" in a munitions plant while wearing shiny patent leather shoes. But his courage and good sportsmanship during and after the Tunney rematch turned him into a widely admired figure who seemed to have lost the bout through a fluke.
    "The Long Count was the luckiest thing that ever happened to me," Dempsey would tell patrons and friends who visited his popular Broadway restaurant years later. "As I returned to my corner [after the final bell], I was cheered for the first time in many years. People were applauding me and calling out my name in a way I had never heard before."
    As so often happens in sports, the two rivals became close friends after their fistic encounters and remained so until Tunney's death in 1978 at age 81 (followed by Dempsey's five years later at 87). And whenever Tunney was asked about the man he had licked, his answer was the same: "Jack Dempsey was the greatest fighter who ever lived."
    It's something of a wonder the two men bonded because their backgrounds couldn't have been more different. Dempsey quit school after the eighth grade to become a miner in his native Colorado, rode the rails as a hobo and boxed for pocket money throughout the western states before gaining a title shot against (and nearly killing) the gigantic and supposedly invincible Willard on July 4, 1919.
    Tunney was born in New York's Greenwich Village and learned to box at an athletic club before joining the Marines in World War I. He read Shakespeare and Hemingway, befriended the British dramatist and critic George Bernard Shaw and did not smoke or drink. In the ring, his only loss came in a brutal 1922 bout with Harry Greb that taught Gene the best offense was a good defense.
    Long after the Long Count, in the early 1960s, Tunney shook his head when his son, John, said he was thinking of running for Congress from California.
    "You don't have a chance of winning, John," the retired champion insisted.
    John Tunney had the perfect retort: "I'll risk it, Dad. After all, nobody gave you a chance of beating Jack Dempsey."
    The younger Tunney, a Democrat, was elected to the House three times and later to the U.S. Senate. He was indeed a winner -- just like his father and, ultimately, Jack Dempsey.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    The eyes of Hype. Igoe, veteran spectator
    of 1,000 ring, battles In- his 30- years of covering
    fights for his newspaper, shot automatically
    toward Timekeeper Beeler a*
    Tunney hit" the floor. He. -watched, him
    count" "to "Five," then cease and resume the
    ;count'.at'"One" with; Barry. 'He had
    read, digested and memorized the special
    rule:
    "When a knock-down occurs, .the timekeeper
    'shall Immediately rise '-and announce
    the seconds, audibly as they
    elapse." -He remembered. "The" referee ' '
    shall first see that 'the opponent retires
    to the farthest corner and then, 'turning
    to'the timekeeper, shall pick Up, the count'
    In unison'wlth" the. timekeeper, announcing
    the seconds to "the boxer on the floor.
    "Should the boxer on, his feet fail' to
    stay In the corner, the. referee and timekeeper,
    shall -cease counting until he has;
    so retired!"
    That Isn't, what 'happened.. Beeler. had started
    the count and had reached "Five"
    when- Barry,' after driving dempsey. to the
    neutral -corner; had turned and arbtrarily started the count all over agaln
    What" was the" timekeeper . for?
    He asked that question of Paul Prehn,
    boxing' commissioner.
    ' "
    rule will explain.lt.". '
    "The hell it will," Igoe replied." and
    flashed the. book and read the-' final- sentence..
    "Beeler should never have started
    the count. When he did, Barry '"was forced
    to take up the" count at .'Five' under
    your own special rule. What Is a time"
    keeper for?" He repeated.
    "For—" hesitated Prehn, "Well, .for'
    cadence."
    "For cadence." Igoe repeated and
    chuckled. "That's good." - • •
    He went to his office and. swiftly 'wrote
    the, story of the "long ..count," which
    within .an hour" was flashing over the'
    world-
    So Dempsey lost the championship even
    as he regained it. What would have happened
    had-Tunney stayed 'down -win "never
    be known. Was the politician telling the
    truth: when .he said that Gene had al-
    ready paid 100.000 for "protection?" It
    Is extremely doubtful, but no . one will
    ever know; If he did put out the money.
    how could he have been protected with
    an honest referee in the ring and honest
    Judges at the ringside? •
    '•There is absolutely no doubt that both
    Barry and the. Judges were and- are- irreproachably
    honest. ; Then .would Tunney,
    had he paid out the - money, lost
    both.it and his championship?" No one
    will ever know. That is one of the mysteries
    or the fight ring, a game so mysterious
    that .anything may " happen and
    often does. . . .

  3. #3
    mike
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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    tunney would have gotten up--it was actually 17 seconds--but would have been pickled. dempsey wins --but if he goes for rematch ,that woulnt be a good idea.

  4. #4
    mike
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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    dempsey that is. the count was slowed and you need the whole fight film as the ones with the clock on it are off.- speed up the last counts.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike
    dempsey that is. the count was slowed and you need the whole fight film as the ones with the clock on it are off.- speed up the last counts.
    Benny Leonard's calculation of 19 seconds, as related in Roger Kahn's "A Flame of Pure," is persuasive. I SEVERELY doubt Tunney beats a legitimate count. Dempsey was improving w/ every fight at that time. A Tunney win in a 3rd fight is by no means a foregone conclusion, IMO.

    I encourage anyone who hasn't done so in a while to take another look @ the last round of the rematch. Melodramatic representations of Dempsey's supposed exhaustion notwithstanding, he is still in there throwing vicious shots to the bitter end. Too bad his skin was starting to come apart in those days....

  6. #6
    mike
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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    dempsey was improving--but how about the reflexes and legs. tunney in the tenth slippped down as dempsey went after thim--ill need to see that round again.--relley think dempsey could win 15 rounder with a bout before a rematch mr. e??not sure here

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    mike
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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    the skin-brine tough-but too scarred up over the left mr. e ??

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    "Right after the fight, [boxer and future referee] Benny Leonard and Hype Igoe, a very good newswriter of his day, got the film. Using sprockets and stopwatches, they timed it and timed it, over and over again. It took them two weeks to put together their report for the New York World. And they concluded that Tunney was on the canvas for 17 or 18 seconds," says Kahn.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike
    dempsey was improving--but how about the reflexes and legs. tunney in the tenth slippped down as dempsey went after thim--ill need to see that round again.--relley think dempsey could win 15 rounder with a bout before a rematch mr. e??not sure here
    Not saying I'd bet Dempsey, necessarily, unless it was the 1918-1923 version. But he was closing the gap, no question. Another 6 months of training and who knows? Ali took 3 years off and the loss to Frazier was his 3rd fight out of the gate. The Long Count was Dempsey's 3rd fight after the lay-off, too.

  10. #10
    mike
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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    id bet on tunney --but you never know thw way he was improving and the way he crucified tunney on the ropes--a classic crucifiction.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Look the Sharkey and second Tunney fights tell as much about Dempsey as any win...he had not been an active fighter since 1921. Sharkey (that version) and Tunney were most likely the best fighters he ever fought. He manages to come from behind to flatten Sharkey and almost stops Tunney.

    In those fights Dempsey showed a great chin, tremendous heart, lightning reflexes (in rare flashes) and killer power. Imagine a peaked 1922 version if he fought three or four times a year and still had his 15 round legs? We never saw that man and it is a shame.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Trivia Question: Anybody recall who was Tex Rickard's original pick for referee in Dempsey-Tunney II?

    (Answer tomorrow.)

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Seem to recall that one round later, Barry starts his count as soon as Dempsey hits canvas, with Tunney still near by...

    Kahn makes a pretty persuasive case for Barry being a crook as well as the choice of a pro-Tunney/not Capone controlled mob segment. Barry's connections to the mob seem well enough documented.

    I'm not sure if Tunney could have made it up by a strait count of 9, but I'm damn sure that if he did, Jack woulda torn him to pieces before he could have recovered sufficiently to resume bicycling.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    You can't go by Kahn...his book was a Dempsey lovefest ...this generations attempt to keep every Dempsey myth stronger than ever....it was a fun read but far from an objective piece.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Petey - I've always found that pretty odd as well. The ref made such a big deal of getting Jack to his neutral corner, then starting at one. But when Jack went to his knees, you can see him swinging his arm in the classic "1...2..." while on the run over to where Jack was, and not even looking at Tunney who was in the middle of the ring, only about a foot from Jack.

    I don't think this is in any way compelling evidence that he was favoring Tunney in the refereeing, but it is definitely very strange to conduct the two counts in such radically different ways.

  16. #16
    mike
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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    ive times that kd off of original film---all rounds are 3 minites timed. the knock down was 17 seconds long on the inside, 18 on the outside . barry towards the end slowed the count. count notwitthstanding--tunney was on the floor for 17 seconds--- but dempsey certainly ,for a better word, crucified tunney on the ropes.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    I hate to say it but I feel Tunney survives. I don't feel the few secxonds made a huge difference. Dempsey did not have the legs to catch him. I say three to one Tunney gets up anyway, clears his head and survives. There is always a shot Dempsey catches him but I doubt the few seconds made a huge difference. It is great stuff of debate though.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike
    ive times that kd off of original film---all rounds are 3 minites timed. the knock down was 17 seconds long on the inside, 18 on the outside . barry towards the end slowed the count. count notwitthstanding--tunney was on the floor for 17 seconds--- but dempsey certainly ,for a better word, crucified tunney on the ropes.

    Mike, I'm curious-- on the supposed "14" second KD that appears on the truncated Jimmy Jacobs clip that has been shown over and over again throughout the years, it appears Tunney doesn't even lift his head until 9 seconds (again, on the Jacobs clip). On your clip, which I assume has been adjusted to make each round 3 minutes long, at what point does Tunney lift his head? I suspect it's after "10." Am I right?

    Most guys have to get up at 9. Tunney got an extra 8 or 9 on top of that. I bet he never gets off the ground in time to beat a legitimate 10-count. Dempsey, KO7.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Dempsey would have had the legs to finish him, even passed his prime as he was. When it came to getting to a dazed opponent and taking them out, Dempsey was very, very quick on his feet. Next to Joe Louis I think he was the best finisher in the heavyweight division.

    Without the extra time, I think Tunney would beaten the count but would have been knocked out or stopped before the end of the round.

  20. #20
    mike
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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr E
    Mike, I'm curious-- on the supposed "14" second KD that appears on the truncated Jimmy Jacobs clip that has been shown over and over again throughout the years, it appears Tunney doesn't even lift his head until 9 seconds (again, on the Jacobs clip). On your clip, which I assume has been adjusted to make each round 3 minutes long, at what point does Tunney lift his head? I suspect it's after "10." Am I right?

    Most guys have to get up at 9. Tunney got an extra 8 or 9 on top of that. I bet he never gets off the ground in time to beat a legitimate 10-count. Dempsey, KO7.
    id have to over the film, eric. one great thing about the start of the 7th round to the knock down was - i think--not postive-that tunney may have gotten just ialittle too cocky by the 7th. both start of sparring and missing. tunney then nails dempsey with a sharp one two and shoves him off. but this time ,dempsey seems , annoyed and says to self--enough of this crap---tunney jabs again and dempsey slips and hits with the right--now tunneys brains let him down--he moves to his right, but not quicl enough and not sensing dempseys waKE up call----then BAMMM--dempsey steps to his left and forward with the famous left right sequence and then the famous left,rt,lft, rt--and right where dempsey wanted him--qiuclky ,surely, and no escape THIS time. thanks

  21. #21
    mike
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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr E
    Mike, I'm curious-- on the supposed "14" second KD that appears on the truncated Jimmy Jacobs clip that has been shown over and over again throughout the years, it appears Tunney doesn't even lift his head until 9 seconds (again, on the Jacobs clip). On your clip, which I assume has been adjusted to make each round 3 minutes long, at what point does Tunney lift his head? I suspect it's after "10." Am I right?

    Most guys have to get up at 9. Tunney got an extra 8 or 9 on top of that. I bet he never gets off the ground in time to beat a legitimate 10-count. Dempsey, KO7.
    off of preliminary reruns of the kn on ,i know, real time speed--tunnery doent lift his head up until 9 secons, at least, maybe 9 and a half to ten---but not before nine seconds. but this is preliminary--it could have been ten. you know because of that crummy supperimposed video of legndary champs--like that sullivan clip--no care was taken at all in reproduction--looks like garbage --and now --you can see the results after being redid with first genertion film--i always thouht tunney had two seconds to get up . he didnt. and like walcoot marciano-in a really accurate count--may well have never beaten it, much less would never have lasted, and MAY have beem very closer to ten than nine seconds. anybody out there with good film and there own stopwatch??? MR. E MADE A VERY,VERY ASTUTE OBSERVATION THAT TUNNEY MAY HAVE BEEN DOWN FOR VERY CLOSE TO TEN AS OPPOSED TO NINE--BEFORE JERKING HIS HEAD TO THE REFF. the second best crusiifition ive seen was when walcoot got nailed by louis by a right while fooling around , then some exchange---THEN LOUIS DRIVES IN HIS PUNCHES AS IF DRIVEING NAILS THROUGH A ROOF !! great monents. anyhow --tunney doent reach ten--a clean ko had dempsey not been dempsey.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    Trivia Question: Anybody recall who was Tex Rickard's original pick for referee in Dempsey-Tunney II?

    (Answer tomorrow.)
    I know all of you have been waiting with breathless anticipation for the answer!

    Tex Rickard originally wanted Jim Jeffries as referee for Dempsey-Tunney II. He thought it would be cool to have three heavyweight champions in the ring at the same time. ("Another historic first for Promoter Tex Rickard!!!")

    Illinois, however, had a residency requirement to qualify as a boxing referee, so no refereeing job for Jeff. Its sort of interesting to ponder how Jeffries would have handled the "long count" . . .

    BTW, that wasn't the first time Rickard wanted Jeffries to referee major fight. He tapped Jeff to referee the Firpo-Willard fight, but New Jersey also had a residence requirement for its referees.
    Last edited by raylawpc; 09-23-2006 at 12:00 AM.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    This whole discussion seems premised on the idea that Dempsey was somehow cheated by Referee Barry. Based on everything I have read about the fight, Dempsey cheated himself by failing to go to a neutral corner in accord with the rules agreed to at least a week before the fight. The rule was that the referee would not start the count until the boxer scoring the knockdown went to a neutral corner. Dempsey didn't go to a neutral corner, so Barry didn't start the count until he did. Simple as that.

    James Dawson of the New York Times wrote from ringside in a story datelined September 22, 1927:
    RINGSIDE, SOLDIER FIELD, CHICAGO-His refusal to observe the boxing rules of the Illinois State Athletic Commission, or his ignorance of the rules, or both, cost Jack Dempsey the chance to regain the world's heavyweight championship here tonight in the ring at Soldier Field. By the same token this disregard of rules of ring warfare, or this surprising ignorance, saved the title for Gene Tunney, the fighting ex-marine, who has been king of the ring for just a year.

    The bout ended with Tunney getting the decision, and the vast majority in the staggering assemblage of 150,000 people, who paid, it is estimated, $2,800,000 to see this great sport spectacle, approved the verdict. The decision was given by referee Dave Barry and Judges George Lytton, wealthy department store owner, and Commodore Sheldon Clark of the Sinclair Oil Company. It was announced as a unanimous decision. Tunney won seven of the ten rounds, losing only the third, sixth and seventh, in the last of which Dempsey made his great mistake.

    In that seventh round Dempsey was being peppered and buffeted about on the end of Tunney's left jabs and hooks and sharp though light right crosses, as he had been in every preceding round, with the exception of the third. In a masterful exhibition of boxing, Tunney was evading the attack of his heavier rival and was countering cleanly, superbly, for half of the round or so. Then Dempsey, plunging in recklessly, charging bull-like, suddenly lashed a long, wicked left to the jaw with the power of old. This he followed with a right to the jaw and quickly drove another left hook to the jaw, under which Tunney toppled like a falling tree, hitting the canvas with a solid thud near Dempsey's corner, his hand reaching blindly for a helping rope which somehow or other refused to be within clutching distance.

    Then Dempsey made his mistake, an error which, I believe, cost him the title. The knockdown brought the knockdown timekeeper, Paul Beeler, to his feet automatically, watch in hand, eyes glued to the ticking seconds, and he bawled "one" before he looked upon the scene in the ring. There he saw Dempsey in his own corner, directly above the prostrate, brain-numbed Tunney, his hand resting on the middle ring strand. Beeler's count stopped. Referee Barry never started one.

    It is the referee's duty to see to it that a boxer scoring a knockdown goes to the corner farthest from his fallen foe and it is the duty of the knockdown timekeeper to delay the count from the watch until this rule is obeyed. The challenging exchampion stood there, arms akimbo on the top ropes of the ring in his own corner, his expression saying more plainly than words: "Get up and I'll knock you down for keeps, this time for keeps." Finally, Dempsey took cognizance of the referee's frantic motions. He was galvanized into action and sped hurriedly across the ring to a neutral corner.

    But three or four, or possibly five precious seconds had elapsed before Dempsey realized at all what he should do. In that fleeting time of the watch Tunney got the advantage. No count was proceeding over him, and quickly his senses were returning. When Referee Barry started counting with Timekeeper Beeler, Tunney was in a state of mental revival where he could keep count with the tolling seconds and did, as his moving lips revealed. Slowly the count proceeded. It seemed an eternity between the downward sweep of the arm of Referee Barry and the steady pounding of the fist of Timekeeper Beeler. Tunney's senses came back to him. He got to his feet with the assistance of the ring ropes and with visible effort at the count of "nine." He was groggy, stunned, shaken.

    But Dempsey was wild in this crisis, as Tunney, back pedaling for dear life, took to full flight, beating an orderly, steady retreat with only light counter moves in the face of Dempsey, aroused now for the kill. Soon Dempsey tired of his own exertions. The former champion stopped dead in his tracks in mid-ring and with a smile spreading over his scowling face motioned disgustedly, daringly, for Tunney to come on and fight.

    But Tunney was playing his own game, and it was a winning game. He did not want to expose himself to that deadly Dempsey punch again, and he would not. Leo P. Flynn, Dempsey's manager, made no effort after the fight to disguise or conceal his feelings or those of Dempsey. "The watch in our corner showed fifteen seconds from the time Tunney hit the floor until he got up at the count of nine," Flynn said. "The legal count over a fallen boxer is ten seconds, not fifteen. Dempsey was jobbed."

    Dempsey, however, was hoisted on his own petard. The rule compelling a boxer to go to the corner furthest removed from a fallen foe is traceable to Dempsey himself. Its adoption followed the Manassa Mauler's battle in 1923 with the giant Firpo when Dempsey stood directly above the fallen Firpo, striking the South American just as soon as his knees left the floor without waiting for Firpo to come erect from a knockdown.
    Regarding Tunney's knockdown of Dempsey in the eighth round: Its been a while since I saw the film, but as I recall, Tunney started for a neutral corner immediately after scoring the knockdown. Barry, therefore, correctly started the count.

    If the question is whether Tunney could have beat the count IF Dempsey had gone immediately to a neutral corner, I suppose that is subject to debate. But it seems irrelevant because Tunney beat the referee's correct count fair and square.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    [QUOTE=raylawpc]Regarding Tunney's knockdown of Dempsey in the eighth round: Its been a while since I saw the film, but as I recall, Tunney started for a neutral corner immediately after scoring the knockdown. Barry, therefore, correctly started the count.

    QUOTE]
    Nope. Barry throws down the "One!" count just as soon as Dempsey's knee touches the canvas, before Tunney even has the opportunity to turn away from Jack. The official was either obviously biased against Dempsey or incompetent. He should have taken up the first count at the knockdown keeper's call, not at one. Dempsey was screwed. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    I really don't think it made a difference. Over the twenty rounds Dempsey showed not only that he lost his legs but that he really never learned to cut off a ring. A young Dempsey would have been able to use his leg speed to catch him anyway but would have had fits against a bigger, stronger faster fighter like Ali.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    [QUOTE=PeteLeo]
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    Regarding Tunney's knockdown of Dempsey in the eighth round: Its been a while since I saw the film, but as I recall, Tunney started for a neutral corner immediately after scoring the knockdown. Barry, therefore, correctly started the count.

    QUOTE]
    Nope. Barry throws down the "One!" count just as soon as Dempsey's knee touches the canvas, before Tunney even has the opportunity to turn away from Jack. The official was either obviously biased against Dempsey or incompetent. He should have taken up the first count at the knockdown keeper's call, not at one. Dempsey was screwed. PeteLeo.
    Hi Pete: That's not my recollection, but I could be wrong. Is the film available on you tube? Does anyone have an on-line link?

    Be that as it may, do you contest that Barry acted within the rules when Tunney went down in the seventh?

    Also, even regarding the second knockdown, why do we always put a sinister spin on things? Even if Barry didn't start the count appropriately in the 8th round as you maintain, how does that prove he was out to screw Dempsey? Couldn't he have just made a simple human mistake? Those kind of mistakes happen to the best of us. The replay official who blew the call in the Oklahoma-Oregon football games a few weeks back had been officiating football games for 23 years, without any complaints. I don't think he had anything against Oklahoma; he just made a bad call. It happens.

  27. #27
    mike
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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    he grant- i -certainly wished dempsey fought more than 5 times in 6 years.he short changed himself and the public.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    [QUOTE=raylawpc][QUOTE=PeteLeo]

    Hi Pete: That's not my recollection, but I could be wrong. Is the film available on you tube? Does anyone have an on-line link?

    THE LEGENDARY CHAMPIONS covers this point quite clearly, and the relevant section of that film can be viewed on YouTube. Just search for "The Long Count." The segment covering Tunney's knockdown of Dempsey illustrates that Gene is still standing within a foot or so of Jack, looking at the referee and in no fashion moving to a neutral corner, when Barry the Biased yells out "One!" as he tolls downward with his right arm. The narrator (I think it was Norman Rose or somebody with a name close to that) urges the viewer to note that Barry has begun the count before Tunney can go to a neutral corner.
    All that aside, Tunney should have been counted out anyway. At the official (Barry's) call of nine, Tunney is still planted on the canvas, his ass in full contact, his left arm on the ropes, and his right glove firmly rooted to the floor. So what does Barry do? He stops counting. Sure, Gene has begun to move at that point, but there's no way in hell he had the time to get from flat on his butt to a full stance, releasing the rope (which he never does until Barry resumes the action) in one second. I've seen many guys off the canvas but still bent over when they're counted out. Tunney should have been.
    Dempsey was screwed. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    That's not my recollection, but I could be wrong. Is the film available on you tube? Does anyone have an on-line link?
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=tOkSVaOilsc

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    Re: Tunney Saved by Long Count?

    Actually, that was my quote from a post preceding mine. I added the YouTube answer, as well, though I didn't include a link. PeteLeo.

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