Tunney Saved by Long Count?

**Sharkey** · 09-27-2006, 10:03 PM

I don't get into if Barry was crooked or not.

For me the speculation rest on if Tunney survives Dempsey had Jack gone to the neutral corner on time.

**raylawpc** · 09-27-2006, 10:39 PM

Hi Sharkey:

That is a very interesting thing to speculate about. It is hard to say because only Tunney knew how badly rattled he was by the knockdown punches.

I think it was Billy Brady who said that the difference between Sullivan-Corbett and Dempsey-Tunney was that Corbett could have defeated John L. on the Strong Boy's best day, but Tunney could never have defeated Dempsey when the Mauler was in his prime.

**PeteLeo** · 09-28-2006, 12:53 AM

What difference does it make how fast Dempsey arose from his knockdown? This is continually brought up, but the fact remains that Barry began the count as soon as Jack touched down and before Tunney had even turned to go to a neutral corner. Dempsey didn't get this break from the official in an identical situation.
Two completely opposing ways of beginning a count + Barry's refusal to pick up the ringside official's count as agreed prior to the match = obvious bias. Dempsey should have been allowed twice as many unpenalized rabbit punches for such unfair officiating. PeteLeo.

**Enswell** · 09-28-2006, 01:01 PM

Barry's refusal to pick up the ringside official's count as agreed prior to the match = obvious bias. Dempsey should have been allowed twice as many unpenalized rabbit punches for such unfair officiating. PeteLeo.[/QUOTE]

In my understanding, the agreement was that the count wouldn't begin at all until the standing fighter went to the neutral corner, which was different than what was in the rulebook, which stated that the ref picks up the timekeepers count after escorting the standing fighter to where he was suppose to be.According to all parties involved, it was explained by the ref that there would be no count at all until the neutral corner ruling was enforced. You can argue if Barry had the authority to change the rule in this way, but he did do exactly what he said he was going to do.(In the seventh round, anyway).

**Mr E** · 09-28-2006, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Enswell

In my understanding, the agreement was that the count wouldn't begin at all until the standing fighter went to the neutral corner, which was different than what was in the rulebook, which stated that the ref picks up the timekeepers count after escorting the standing fighter to where he was suppose to be.According to all parties involved, it was explained by the ref that there would be no count at all until the neutral corner ruling was enforced. You can argue if Barry had the authority to change the rule in this way, but he did do exactly what he said he was going to do.(In the seventh round, anyway).

I think it's inaccurate that 'it was agreed by all parties' both that Barry took it upon himself to change the rules during the intro and that everyone agreed to his doing so.

**raylawpc** · 09-28-2006, 01:31 PM

Based on the newspaper accounts I have read, there was no neutral corner rule on the Illinois rule book at that time. The neutral corner rule applied by Barry was agreed upon by the principals two weeks before the fight, at the insistance (ironically) of the Dempsey camp. Furthermore, Barry reminded both fighters of the rule during the pre-fight instructions. Immediately after the fight, the NBA and its sixteen or so member commissions adopted a neutral corner rule very similar to that which we now have in the vast majority of commissions across the world. Thus, a good thing historically about the Dempsey-Tunney fight is that it led to a uniform neutral corner rule.

Regarding the second knockdown, it think it is debatable whether Barry even counted to one. I looked at the film again this morning after reading Pete's message. Barry certainly raised his arm in anticipation of starting the count when he approached the fighters, and his arm does go down. Yet, Tunney's body blocks a view of Barry's face, and one cannot see whether he actually called out the count. It is certainly possible that Barry called out nothing when he saw Dempsey return to his feet. It is noteworthy to me that Barry also raised his arm in anticipation of a count when Tunney hit the canvas in the seventh round, but stopped when he saw that Demspey failed to head to a neutral corner. I'm not so sure Barry did anything wrong.

But even if you are correct, Pete, is it completely beyond the realm of possibility that the guy just simply made a mistake in the 8th round?

**PeteLeo** · 09-28-2006, 03:00 PM

Well, it's within the realm of possibility that Liston was really knocked down in the second Ali fight, if you want to look at things that way. As to the knockdown of Dempsey, why would any referee make the counting motion without actually counting? Angelo Dundee used it to make fun of Barry's "Lawrence Welk counting style." PeteLeo.

**thumper3852** · 09-28-2006, 03:06 PM

But even if you are correct, Pete, is it completely beyond the realm of possibility that the guy just simply made a mistake in the 8th round?

Yes it is, but to follow that reasoning would then very likely take all the fun out of bitching about it, wouldn't it?

**raylawpc** · 09-28-2006, 03:53 PM

Hi Pete: It is probably best if we agree to disagree regarding the honesty of Referee Dave Barry.

That said, (1) What would you expect Barry to do if he started but didn't complete the count? Do you actually see him mouth the word "one?" I don't - Tunney blocks the view. (BTW, I am not saying he didn't start the count - I'm saying you can't tell for certain from the film.) (2) It is clear from the film that, with regard to the so-called "long count" knockdown, Barry is looking at - and presumably following - the count of the timekeeper. (Granted, I can't see the timekeeper, but I can't imagine who else Barry would be staring at - unless maybe Mae West was sitting at ringside

.) Maybe yours and Angelo's beef is better directed at the timekeeper.

Actually, Pete, I do think Ali knocked Liston down in the second fight. However, I am also pretty sure that he could have gotten up anytime he wanted. (In fact, he probably could have gotten up about as quickly as Dempsey did against Tunney.) We can speculate all day on why he didn't.

**Enswell** · 09-29-2006, 01:13 AM

[QUOTE=raylawpc]Based on the newspaper accounts I have read, there was no neutral corner rule on the Illinois rule book at that time. The neutral corner rule applied by Barry was agreed upon by the principals two weeks before the fight, at the insistance (ironically) of the Dempsey camp. Furthermore, Barry reminded both fighters of the rule during the pre-fight instructions.

Interesting. I thought there was a Illinois rule. I know i've read a neutral corner rule that was from that time and I guess I just assumed it was an Illinois rule. Anyway, I've always read that it was made clear to both fighters that there wouldn't be a count untill the standing fighter was in the neutral corner.

**iskigoe** · 09-29-2006, 08:59 PM

Hype's problem did not seem to be the neutral corner rule. He was mad the count was started over not picked back up at five.

**raylawpc** · 05-25-2007, 03:07 PM

Hi Walsh. I found it.

**GorDoom** · 05-25-2007, 03:40 PM

On the upper right of every forum there is a link to our search engine which is pretty good. Just trype in the name of the fighter or event & if there are threads on it it will bringthem up to you.

GorDoom

**raylawpc** · 05-25-2007, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by GorDoom

On the upper right of every forum there is a link to our search engine which is pretty good. Just trype in the name of the fighter or event & if there are threads on it it will bringthem up to you.

GorDoom

Gor, I can attest that the search engine works great. I found this old thread by typing "Dave Barry." Pulled it right up.