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Thread: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

  1. #271
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Lipton
    Monzon wins at 160lbs and at 170lbs and makes the Tarver and Calzaghe fights look like a joke. Roy must take periodic steroid tests before they let him in the ring for this one. Without the juice, Pensacola ain't in the house.
    Respectfully, I don't see how one can pick Monzon at 170 when he never fought there. And it took him a lot of rounds to KO guys at 160; he was no 1-punch KO artist.

    Tarver and Calzhaghe surely did not beat Jones in his prime.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    This is true, but Carlos had the height, experience and was ripped to the bone and could handle 170lbs with ease. He was a winner, very tough and unorthodox and had the mindset to beat Roy. I just think it is the way Roy just lay there like a dead man for both Tarver and Johnson truly knocked out into total unconsciousness from punches that were not spectacular to me which tarnished his toughness quality.

    If you stood up to Roy and keep coming you get him, Monzon was that kind of guy, but in boxing who knows, it only guesswork and anything can happen.

    Beating Valdez, Benvenuti, Napoles, and Briscoe is no easy feat, its the toughness of the man and the way Roy was exposed which makes me lean toward Monzon as the more macho warrior in a showdown.

    Flash v substance.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Flash vs. substance says it all.

    It sure is funny though how many people buy into flash though. And are sold on it.
    I guess it's because that flash style is so extremely effective against the C and B grade fighters. It's the fighters with tools that present the problems & those A+ results never seem to be there against that elite competition==and that's a big problem I have with that flash style. Then again, how many guys are out there anymore with tools?

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    What kind of fighters are you talking about Robert?.Larocca, Ed Hopson and the likes i'm guessing.

    Though he may have ultimately been more flash than grit, putting jones in that kind of category would be as wrong as comparing his toughness to basilio or Lamotta imo.

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    Re: Can't just leave

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    it without a parting insult can he?

    But he doesn't wish to let it drag out.

    Just so long as HE get's the last zinger insult in there.

    But he is "above" this childishness.

    Only wishing to talk boxing.....Respectfully.

    Sigh.

    Hawk

    Classic Hawkins.

    Thanks
    Jay

    Back to boxing.

    Jones would be no match for the seriousness and toughness of Carlos. Carlos is Hopkins times five in the toughness department, and more than Jones and Hopkins in the will to win. Jones finds that he cannot find any common ground with Carlos and loses some of the nessasary confidence needed to figure Carlos out and apply it.

    Jones I think is not mentally tough enough to apply himself properly when he gets push back from Carlos. If anything his own superiour talent will wake Carlos up to the point that he needs to be on his best and get the fight over before he take a punch that he cannot handle.

    Carlos in 9.

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    Re: Can't just leave

    Quote Originally Posted by JLP 6
    Classic Hawkins.

    Thanks
    Jay

    Back to boxing.

    Jones would be no match for the seriousness and toughness of Carlos. Carlos is Hopkins times five in the toughness department, and more than Jones and Hopkins in the will to win. Jones finds that he cannot find any common ground with Carlos and loses some of the nessasary confidence needed to figure Carlos out and apply it.

    Jones I think is not mentally tough enough to apply himself properly when he gets push back from Carlos. If anything his own superiour talent will wake Carlos up to the point that he needs to be on his best and get the fight over before he take a punch that he cannot handle.

    Carlos in 9.

    Good points. However, Monzon has never remotely seen anything like Jones too. Toughness is one thing, but be able to get off on a Prime Roy, being able to hit a Prime Roy, being able to deal with a Prime Roy's speed, power, unorthodoxness, is another thing. I recall many saying Liston would do the same to young clay, Duran to Leonard, Hagler to Leonard, Chavez to Whitacker, etc... Prime Roy is these fighters plus more speed and power combined.

    Now if the Roy that languished on the ropes in the 1st Griffen fight shows up, then it is Monzon all the way. However, the Roy that faced Toney, the speed, power, movement, unthordoxness, IMO is too much for Monzon to deal with

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Yes, all you say fine, yet Roy would not be in with Toney or Hopkins.

    That telephone Jab that Monzon has and that Stiff right hand are something that Roy would have to contend with every single round. I give Roy a few rounds to look good. After that it's game time.

    Roy likes to lead with hooks, no jab, and keeps he hands low. His posture is a slight crouch. Roy is not aggresive. So all that means to me is that Carlos will unstand that he can 1. Use his hieght, 2. All least watch out for lead hooks, and 3. Use his range in a realitively safe distance.

    Roy best attributes against Carlos is speed and power. The problem is he does not set up is power correctly. You saw in the Hopkins fight that he could not get in his shots even though he had the same advantages against a lesser opponent than himself (at the time) and certainly lesser than Carlos who Roy himself and Benard is lesser than. I have not seen the Toney fight, but what I saw was a Toney not taking the fight as serious as he should have, getting caught up in himself.

    Give me Carlos in 9.

    Roy was supremely talented, but if we are being honest, if we were to put Roy back in the 70's and he had to fight Briscoe, Monzon, Benvenuti, Valdez, Griffith (did I miss anybody) I think Roy would have a tough time becoming an all-time great.

    If we put Carlos in the middle division in the 90's he takes Roy, Hopkins, Benn, Barkley, Nunn, Toney, McCullum, McClellan. Most of those names I have a hard time seeing Roy beat. McClellan most assuredly would have been a problem for Roy. Barkley would have been tough, Julian Jackson, Roy would have had his hands plenty full.

    Carlos based on who he beat and his own toughness clears these guys out including Roy Jones Jr.
    Last edited by JLP 6; 11-29-2008 at 01:50 PM.

  8. #278
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by JLP 6
    Yes, all you say fine, yet Roy would not be in with Toney or Hopkins.

    That telephone Jab that Monzon has and that Stiff right hand are something that Roy would have to contend with every single round. I give Roy a few rounds to look good. After that it's game time.

    Roy likes to lead with hooks, no jab, and keeps he hands low. His posture is a slight crouch. Roy is not aggresive. So all that means to me is that Carlos will unstand that he can 1. Use his hieght, 2. All least watch out for lead hooks, and 3. Use his range in a realitively safe distance.

    Roy best attributes against Carlos is speed and power. The problem is he does not set up is power correctly. You saw in the Hopkins fight that he could not get in his shots even though he had the same advantages against a lesser opponent than himself (at the time) and certainly lesser than Carlos who Roy himself and Benard is lesser than. I have not seen the Toney fight, but what I saw was a Toney not taking the fight as serious as he should have, getting caught up in himself.

    Give me Carlos in 9.

    Roy was supremely talented, but if we are being honest, if we were to put Roy back in the 70's and he had to fight Briscoe, Monzon, Benvenuti, Valdez, Griffith (did I miss anybody) I think Roy would have a tough time becoming an all-time great.

    If we put Carlos in the middle division in the 90's he takes Roy, Hopkins, Benn, Barkley, Nunn, Toney, McCullum, McClellan. Most of those names I have a hard time seeing Roy beat. McClellan most assuredly would have been a problem for Roy. Barkley would have been tough, Julian Jackson, Roy would have had his hands plenty full.

    Carlos based on who he beat and his own toughness clears these guys out including Roy Jones Jr.

    I will sum it up like Sugar Ray said when asked about Roy in a telecast of one of his fights. What are you gonna do. The last thing you want to do vs Roy is Jab, especially a long jab. Conventional wisdom says jab, but Roy counter was probably the fastest ever, and had you noticed how most of opponents stopped jabbing after they saw how the counter get home before your even able to get your hands back. Ray said it perfectily "We all where lucky roy was not fighting when we came up, just simply to fast, to strong, an too unorthodox, what are you gonna do against him". During his peak, noone figured that out.

    As a middle weight Roy was extremely aggessive most of the time. Now after the Benn -McClellan fight he did become a bit gun shy. However he still would pose Monzon with issues that IMO Monzon would not be able to figure out. The two best chances vs Prime roy would be a Duran like fighter at Middleweight, who was both fast, elusives did follow his jab, but his jab many times was fast and just something to blind you as he got inside.

    I simply dont think fighters could comprehend the awesome speed and power that Roy Had in his peak years and unorthodoxness he employed it with. How you gonna prepare for the speed that Roy had, you cant. How you gonna prep for the lunging left hook out of nowhere,...you cant. Now to me as my rankings have it Monzon is one the greatest Middleweights ever, but Roy style simply would frusterate Monzon, Hagler, how would stop Ray Leonard at Middle (as much as I love him he gets hit way to often by right hands and Benetiz caught him with great left hooks in that fight, to the head and body). I think Roy speed and power combined at Middle woul be much more dangerous than What ray faced in hearns the 1st fight.

    I have studied Roy's fights, and I compare him to like a young cassious clay, exept no jab and yes more speed. Maybe some have forgot just how fast roy jones was in his prime. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDWnMXzgeZo. You dont see that from any other fighter ever. Not Ali, not Leoanrd, not mayweather. That combination of speed raw power.

    As far as your statement about roy not being able to beat Nunn etc. Please!! The guy that stopped nunn, won how many rounds vs Roy? Generally I do not do the A=b and b=c so a=c stuff, but Roy dominated Toney soooo bad he showed that toney and those in his class where not on the same page. It was not close. Also, he beat Hopkins with 1 hand. One hand. Most fighters would have pulled out of the fight, but Roy fought and beat him with pretty much only a left.

    McClellan did beat Roy as an amateur, but he Randy shields beat leonard as an amateur, I dont see any one saying that Shields is better especially since they did fight as pros and you saw what happened. McClellan had one thing to do, to get that fight, and that was beat Benn, he didn't unfortunatly so we will never see. These other fighter IMO had no chance whatso ever. The tragedy in all this is that I and others love our super 4 (Leonard, hearns, hagler, Duran) they gave us the best era I can imagine. However, Roy was every bit as talented as each of them if not more.

    1.Let see Roy no losses (legit til 34 or 35) Ray, hearns, hagler, Duran all had losses

    2.Roy beat two all time top fighters and many many many champs some where champs still til just recently.

    3. Roy dominated Middle, super middle, light heavy and even won a heavy weight title and did not run when fighting this guy, he came to bang and did that. Ray leonard may have won titles at the higher division but he never campaigned at the higher division. Neither did hearns or Duran effectivly campaign at the higher division, but Duran give him kudos he fought everyone for years, yes i will say he had a cream puff lightweight resume, but he also beat everyone too.

    4. Only started losing when he destroyed his body by losing muscle rapidly.

    5. Should have been the olympic gold medalist too

    6. In his rematch in his prime vs the only dent in his resume....he handled that fight with a resounding awe inspiring no bull 1st round ko.... no dancing outboxing, etc. He came in and went right after Griffith who was a pretty good fighter. Destroyed him, humiliated him.

    7. Stopped a world class champion at light heavy with a body punch.

    I can go on and on. What we had in Roy was simply amazing. Calzaghe, Monzon, Tarver, Glendale , all of these fighters would have had no chance vs prime roy. he simply was Ray Leonard on steriods and more unorthodox.
    Thus the style Monzon had, is perfect for roy. Wait til he comes forward, and jabs,,then boooooom...counter...


    Take a look at that video embedded in this post, and tell me who could handle that.
    Last edited by wpink; 11-29-2008 at 06:13 PM.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Thanks for the link.

    Roy was definatley talented, fast and strong. Great fighter.

    That much I am convinced of. I am sure that we both agree on that.

    Now, we have both made our points. I think it's best we leave it there.

    Thanks,
    Jay

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by JLP 6
    Roy was supremely talented, but if we are being honest, if we were to put Roy back in the 70's and he had to fight Briscoe, Monzon, Benvenuti, Valdez, Griffith (did I miss anybody) I think Roy would have a tough time becoming an all-time great.

    If we put Carlos in the middle division in the 90's he takes Roy, Hopkins, Benn, Barkley, Nunn, Toney, McCullum, McClellan. Most of those names I have a hard time seeing Roy beat. McClellan most assuredly would have been a problem for Roy. Barkley would have been tough, Julian Jackson, Roy would have had his hands plenty full.

    Carlos based on who he beat and his own toughness clears these guys out including Roy Jones Jr.
    I enjoyed your analysis of how they'd fight each other but cannot agree with the rosters of fighters immediately above who Roy allegedly can't beat but that Carlos apparently would go through unbeaten.

    One of my beefs forever with the Monzon legend has to to with whom he beat. You say, "Carlos based on who he beat and his own toughness clears these guys out including Roy Jones Jr." -- So Griffith 10+ years past his prime, Napoles many pounds above his best weight and well past his prime, Benvenuti who in the 2nd fight had his corner give up in 3 rounds--this constitutes "great opponents"? All these opponents together (with Briscoe and Valdez) IMO are not as a group as good, I feel, as the group of Benn, McClellan, Hopkins, Toney, McCallum, Nunn, and Barkley that you listed.

    A problem for me is that Monzon typically had long, drawn-out fights with these IMO non-legends--so how does he deal with the spectacular speed of Nunn or Jones, and the spectacular power of Benn and McClellan, and the excellent boxing ability of McCallum and Hopkins, and the toughness of Barkley? Well, perhaps Carlos beats a few or most of them . . . but WHAT did he do in his career, and to whom, and HOW, to imply he walks through this entire group as if they're nobodies?

    Straight up, for example, I think McCallum (against whom I like Carlos's chances) was FAR more dangerous at the weight than old, blown-up Napoles. Why is a victory by a middleweight champion over this version of a lightweight-cum-welterweight Napoles accorded much credence at all?

    This is an example of how I think the opinions of Monzon are unrealistic.

    I'll toss in another angle: should Monzon lose once to say, either Nunn, Benn or McClellan, does anybody seeing him then reel off victories against the rest of the list? With his "aura" gone" I mean. Monzon is a guy with 3 losses and 9 draws, for God's sake . . . yet now he is thought to be invincible or something.

    Griffith, a total gentleman and not a trash talker, fought him twice and said in the newspapers that Carlos couldn't punch. But currently, Carlos is held up by many as a legendary puncher, and some believe he KO'd Joe Frazier.

    When does it stop?

    Carlos has never seen the speed of Jones or Nunn, not even close. But, automatically, he is now their conqueror? When, in fact, most times the faster fighter has an asset that cannot be overcome.
    Last edited by Michael Frank; 11-29-2008 at 09:59 PM.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    You made some great points about Carlos' best opponents, their state at the time he faced them, and them compared to crop the Jones lived with.

    I think that Griffith was still great. He gave Carlos tough bouts. Napoles for my money gave Monzon a hard seven rounds. He pushed, charged, and connected with Monzon. Monzon just showed why he was the champ and finished things before they went too far.

    Benventi the same thing. He took the title from him, and punished him in the rematch. Quickly. Not impressed?

    Briscoe IMO would have been a leading contender if not the champion in the 90's. Those guys from the 90's are all-times, greats, and near greats. Jones fought two of them.

    Carlos lost 3 and drew 9, yes. Very early in his career I might add. But, he also won over 80 fights in a row until he retired. Over 60 KO's 14 title defenses. That record stood over 20 years. Not impressed? Arfter those 3 loses and nine draw was he not invinsible?

    Speed you say.

    Lamotta beat Robinson
    Frazier beat Ali
    Schmeling beat Louis
    Last edited by JLP 6; 11-29-2008 at 10:18 PM.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Hey, JLP--

    Good points, all, by you.

    I can't help but consider that last one, though: "Lamotta beat Robinson.
    Frazier beat Ali" - Yes, of course some gritty fighters will overcome speed sometimes . . . but, LaMotta lost to Ray 5 of 6 times, and Frazier lost to Ali 2 of 3 times. So, their once-ever wins, which are otherwise against losses the rest of the time, are held up as examples of how Carlos beats the speedsters, best-to-best?

    Perhaps Barkley over Hearns twice is a better example of grit over speed? Duran over Leonard #1?

    Anyway, fun discussing this with you.

    Regards,

    M.F.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    I'm still having problems understanding the rationale behind blaming Monzon for having "drawn-out" fights.

    Uh, so what?

    The man was a mechanic, perhaps the best the division has ever seen. He wasn't a "Hail, Mary"-styled bomber. He came in, assessed the situation, set up his blueprint, and then pretty much dominated everyone he fought in a title bout. Had he been a Benn (how do you like the rhyme?), he would have had plenty more early-round stoppages, but with so much more than just power to rely on, what's wrong with utilizing all of your advantages?

    How many quick blowouts did Robinson score in championship fights? Hagler? Leonard? Hell, how many quickies did the "tremendous-hitting" Jones give us with the title on the line? Seems to me that RJJ had plenty of 6, 8, 10, and 12-rounders on his ledger when he wasn't fighting parttime boxers who were fulltime mailmen or cops or whatever. Yet only Monzon is penalized for taking his time.

    If he'd won every one of his bouts by first-round KO, the haters would be denigrating him for "not being able to go the distance," I guess. PeteLeo.
    Last edited by PeteLeo; 11-30-2008 at 03:34 AM.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    I'm not a "hater" of Monzon. Not even close. I am a fan of his though I still do have great difficulty sitting through his fights and seeing what others claim to be a genius at work. I simply like some other fighters better.

    My problem has always been with the lovers of Monzon--not with Monzon himself-- and their ascribing magic powers to him, though my eyes tell me he wasn't fast, or a KO artist, or much of a mover. Oh yes, he was "strong" and "tall." And so "orthodox." And "patient."

    His record is replete with victories, certainly. I don't hate Monzon, I just don't understand the worship of his fans--who seem to give only him credit for long, drawn-out victory after long drawn-out victory, but wouldn't give any other fighter credit for similar wins--such as Jones, Toney even, or whomever one cares to name.

    I have nothing against cats--but the people who worship them and think they are so superior to dogs or any other pet, I don't understand. I watch how cats treat these owners--barely acknowledging they are alive--and the owners love them to death anyway.

    So it is with the Monzon-worshipers. Just once I wish he had beat the snot out of someone great or near-great in a title fight, fast and spectacularly; I mean just once (and not with a freak, wierd ending as in Nino #2). The "workman" Hagler didn't do it often, but he sure did it against Hearns, Minter, Seales, Lee, and some others.

    I fault Monzon for "taking his time" if indeed this was all by choice, because it makes for non-crowd-pleasing fights. The greats in this sport try to win with an explanation point. Even Ali, who wouldn't call himself a KO artist, won most of his big ones by stoppage, and they didn't generally go past 12. Monzon didn't quite have his talent, I feel, and doesn't rank as highly on most p4p lists, but still is regarded as a legend.

    I'd like to see Carlos in there against Hagler, Nunn, Hearns, Jones, B-Hop, and some others. Before anyone says that he'd "kill them of course," I would remind such people that he never fought anyone like them.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    On this issue of being called a "hater," I have learned a corollary to the phrase, "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." It is, "It's usually the people in the glass houses who indeed do the stone-throwing--and hence are hypocrites."

    I have seen certain posts on this site that rudely and profanely have attacked Hilary and Bill, calling them scum and the like; yet the same posters are quick to call someone else a "hater." All because one may assess a boxer, Carlos Monzon, at a degree below from where the masses on a boxing site rate him. I disagree with his all-time #1 status according to some here, but without calling him an average or poor fighter, or any names; just questioning the skills I see or don't see, and his opposition.

    I think the worst thing I've said is "over-rated." Makes me a hater, I guess.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by wpink
    I will sum it up like Sugar Ray said when asked about Roy in a telecast of one of his fights. What are you gonna do. The last thing you want to do vs Roy is Jab, especially a long jab. Conventional wisdom says jab, but Roy counter was probably the fastest ever, and had you noticed how most of opponents stopped jabbing after they saw how the counter get home before your even able to get your hands back. Ray said it perfectily "We all where lucky roy was not fighting when we came up, just simply to fast, to strong, an too unorthodox, what are you gonna do against him". During his peak, noone figured that out.

    As a middle weight Roy was extremely aggessive most of the time. Now after the Benn -McClellan fight he did become a bit gun shy. However he still would pose Monzon with issues that IMO Monzon would not be able to figure out. The two best chances vs Prime roy would be a Duran like fighter at Middleweight, who was both fast, elusives did follow his jab, but his jab many times was fast and just something to blind you as he got inside.

    I simply dont think fighters could comprehend the awesome speed and power that Roy Had in his peak years and unorthodoxness he employed it with. How you gonna prepare for the speed that Roy had, you cant. How you gonna prep for the lunging left hook out of nowhere,...you cant. Now to me as my rankings have it Monzon is one the greatest Middleweights ever, but Roy style simply would frusterate Monzon, Hagler, how would stop Ray Leonard at Middle (as much as I love him he gets hit way to often by right hands and Benetiz caught him with great left hooks in that fight, to the head and body). I think Roy speed and power combined at Middle woul be much more dangerous than What ray faced in hearns the 1st fight.

    I have studied Roy's fights, and I compare him to like a young cassious clay, exept no jab and yes more speed. Maybe some have forgot just how fast roy jones was in his prime. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDWnMXzgeZo. You dont see that from any other fighter ever. Not Ali, not Leoanrd, not mayweather. That combination of speed raw power.

    As far as your statement about roy not being able to beat Nunn etc. Please!! The guy that stopped nunn, won how many rounds vs Roy? Generally I do not do the A=b and b=c so a=c stuff, but Roy dominated Toney soooo bad he showed that toney and those in his class where not on the same page. It was not close. Also, he beat Hopkins with 1 hand. One hand. Most fighters would have pulled out of the fight, but Roy fought and beat him with pretty much only a left.

    McClellan did beat Roy as an amateur, but he Randy shields beat leonard as an amateur, I dont see any one saying that Shields is better especially since they did fight as pros and you saw what happened. McClellan had one thing to do, to get that fight, and that was beat Benn, he didn't unfortunatly so we will never see. These other fighter IMO had no chance whatso ever. The tragedy in all this is that I and others love our super 4 (Leonard, hearns, hagler, Duran) they gave us the best era I can imagine. However, Roy was every bit as talented as each of them if not more.

    1.Let see Roy no losses (legit til 34 or 35) Ray, hearns, hagler, Duran all had losses

    2.Roy beat two all time top fighters and many many many champs some where champs still til just recently.

    3. Roy dominated Middle, super middle, light heavy and even won a heavy weight title and did not run when fighting this guy, he came to bang and did that. Ray leonard may have won titles at the higher division but he never campaigned at the higher division. Neither did hearns or Duran effectivly campaign at the higher division, but Duran give him kudos he fought everyone for years, yes i will say he had a cream puff lightweight resume, but he also beat everyone too.

    4. Only started losing when he destroyed his body by losing muscle rapidly.

    5. Should have been the olympic gold medalist too

    6. In his rematch in his prime vs the only dent in his resume....he handled that fight with a resounding awe inspiring no bull 1st round ko.... no dancing outboxing, etc. He came in and went right after Griffith who was a pretty good fighter. Destroyed him, humiliated him.

    7. Stopped a world class champion at light heavy with a body punch.

    I can go on and on. What we had in Roy was simply amazing. Calzaghe, Monzon, Tarver, Glendale , all of these fighters would have had no chance vs prime roy. he simply was Ray Leonard on steriods and more unorthodox.
    Thus the style Monzon had, is perfect for roy. Wait til he comes forward, and jabs,,then boooooom...counter...


    Take a look at that video embedded in this post, and tell me who could handle that.
    I have to agree with most of what Pink is saying regards Roy-Carlos and how it would pan out

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Bill Clinton?

    Bill Clinton? Who on this whole site has said two words about Bill (or Hill) Clinton in the past three years? This is a no politics, no religion board, yet somehow Bill Clinton continues to be tossed into the mix to impeach (sorry, I couldn't resist) the opinions of others.

    Let me get this straight: if I point out that Monzon was a great fighter and a murdering piece of shit as a human being, I'm using some obscure debate club tactic that is beneath the dignity of this discourse, but if I don't praise Mr. Bill to the High Heavens (on a no politics, no religion site), than I'm "throwing stones from within my own glass house"? Something like that?

    Monzon wasn't particularly concerned with providing the public with hyperactive one-round KOs, and that somehow lessens his status as an all-time great middleweight? Is that what we're saying? Carlos thus drops behind, oh, Graziano, early Nigel Benn, James "Hardrock" Green, Julian Jackson, Billy Papke, and scads of other hell-bent-for-leather bombers who seldom had a "Plan B" to fall back on once "Plan A" flopped, then?

    Well, in that case, I would imagine that an Ali who went forty-one rounds against Frazier without once dropping him, who was extended some twenty or so rounds by soft-chinned Patterson minus any knockdowns, who went fifteen against Alfredo Evangelista (later to be "knocked out" by Holmes with a punch to his forearm), this Ali must be simmering down there in the moldy pot of mediocrity alongside Monzon? Yes? No?

    By golly, Monzon certainly didn't beat a Hearns, Nunn, Hagler, Jones, Leonard, Calzaghe, Whoever, that's the unvarnished truth. Mainly because they weren't around as legitimate title challengers during his tenure. Ali didn't beat Louis or Dempsey, either. What Carlos did do was fight and defeat every worthy challenger for the middleweight crown during his lengthy, record-setting reign. I thought that was enough. I wasn't aware that he had to defeat everyone -- including dead guys and guys still fighting four-rounders and guys who weren't born yet -- by devastating first-round KO to be considered halfway decent. My mistake.

    You know, that Bill Clinton could tell a funny joke. I'll give him that. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Pete, I agree fully that we can only judge Monzon on his era and who was in it.
    No point in mentioning names that weren't around; however, I think folks are using the names as examples of fighters who would give him serious problems, that's all; and I bet he would also give them serious problems.

    When judging him on HOW he beat some of his victims, we can maybe envisage HOW he would go about beating a prime Jones or Leonard etc.

    I think both their styles are BAD for Carlos as he is at a serious speed disadvantage and against Jones, he is a at a power disadvanatge too.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb

    I think both their styles are BAD for Carlos as he is at a serious speed disadvantage and against Jones, he is a at a power disadvanatge too.
    Fair enough. But I'll take the guy with the power disadvantage over the guy with the chin disadvantage any day.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    Bill Clinton?

    Bill Clinton? Who on this whole site has said two words about Bill (or Hill) Clinton in the past three years? This is a no politics, no religion board, yet somehow Bill Clinton continues to be tossed into the mix to impeach (sorry, I couldn't resist) the opinions of others.

    Let me get this straight: if I point out that Monzon was a great fighter and a murdering piece of shit as a human being, I'm using some obscure debate club tactic that is beneath the dignity of this discourse, but if I don't praise Mr. Bill to the High Heavens (on a no politics, no religion site), than I'm "throwing stones from within my own glass house"? Something like that?

    Monzon wasn't particularly concerned with providing the public with hyperactive one-round KOs, and that somehow lessens his status as an all-time great middleweight? Is that what we're saying? Carlos thus drops behind, oh, Graziano, early Nigel Benn, James "Hardrock" Green, Julian Jackson, Billy Papke, and scads of other hell-bent-for-leather bombers who seldom had a "Plan B" to fall back on once "Plan A" flopped, then?

    Well, in that case, I would imagine that an Ali who went forty-one rounds against Frazier without once dropping him, who was extended some twenty or so rounds by soft-chinned Patterson minus any knockdowns, who went fifteen against Alfredo Evangelista (later to be "knocked out" by Holmes with a punch to his forearm), this Ali must be simmering down there in the moldy pot of mediocrity alongside Monzon? Yes? No?

    By golly, Monzon certainly didn't beat a Hearns, Nunn, Hagler, Jones, Leonard, Calzaghe, Whoever, that's the unvarnished truth. Mainly because they weren't around as legitimate title challengers during his tenure. Ali didn't beat Louis or Dempsey, either. What Carlos did do was fight and defeat every worthy challenger for the middleweight crown during his lengthy, record-setting reign. I thought that was enough. I wasn't aware that he had to defeat everyone -- including dead guys and guys still fighting four-rounders and guys who weren't born yet -- by devastating first-round KO to be considered halfway decent. My mistake.

    You know, that Bill Clinton could tell a funny joke. I'll give him that. PeteLeo.
    Pete Leo... I understand your point, but Remember Holmes and Hopkins. They both had long reigns beating everyone that came their way for long stretches. However, the quality of their defenses has always been questioned and thus Larry Holmes is never ranked where Ali is and he had more defenses (at least in a consistent stretch), Same with Hopkins. Now hopkins has increased his stature more so based off of what he has done later in his career vs most of his title reign.

    My point is Monzon was dominant, but not having beaten the top caliber types of fighters, then some going as far as to say he would beat a talent that he never imagined fighting against, is a stretch. Prime Roy Jones at Middleweight is something that Monzon simply did not have to think about fighting. I don't think his style the orthodox steadily taking control of fight, wear you out style, is one that could pose anything to the Jones that entered the ring vs Toney.

    That is just my opinion. You also talked about previously the police officers etc that he faced. True However, he also beat 2 top legends at their peak are at least not when they were shot. He beat many fighters that are very very good and champions, even at the higher weight classes. Does his resume equal a Leonards, or Robinsons, Dlh? No it does not, but he did up to age 34 fight a very good resume, beat all comers, beat 2 legends EASILY, I believe he faced 17 current or previous world champions and beat them by the age of 35. That is very very impressive. Not legendary but impressive.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    Bill Clinton?

    Bill Clinton? Who on this whole site has said two words about Bill (or Hill) Clinton in the past three years? This is a no politics, no religion board, yet somehow Bill Clinton continues to be tossed into the mix to impeach (sorry, I couldn't resist) the opinions of others.

    Let me get this straight: if I point out that Monzon was a great fighter and a murdering piece of shit as a human being, I'm using some obscure debate club tactic that is beneath the dignity of this discourse, but if I don't praise Mr. Bill to the High Heavens (on a no politics, no religion site), than I'm "throwing stones from within my own glass house"? Something like that?

    Monzon wasn't particularly concerned with providing the public with hyperactive one-round KOs, and that somehow lessens his status as an all-time great middleweight? Is that what we're saying? Carlos thus drops behind, oh, Graziano, early Nigel Benn, James "Hardrock" Green, Julian Jackson, Billy Papke, and scads of other hell-bent-for-leather bombers who seldom had a "Plan B" to fall back on once "Plan A" flopped, then?

    Well, in that case, I would imagine that an Ali who went forty-one rounds against Frazier without once dropping him, who was extended some twenty or so rounds by soft-chinned Patterson minus any knockdowns, who went fifteen against Alfredo Evangelista (later to be "knocked out" by Holmes with a punch to his forearm), this Ali must be simmering down there in the moldy pot of mediocrity alongside Monzon? Yes? No?

    By golly, Monzon certainly didn't beat a Hearns, Nunn, Hagler, Jones, Leonard, Calzaghe, Whoever, that's the unvarnished truth. Mainly because they weren't around as legitimate title challengers during his tenure. Ali didn't beat Louis or Dempsey, either. What Carlos did do was fight and defeat every worthy challenger for the middleweight crown during his lengthy, record-setting reign. I thought that was enough. I wasn't aware that he had to defeat everyone -- including dead guys and guys still fighting four-rounders and guys who weren't born yet -- by devastating first-round KO to be considered halfway decent. My mistake.

    You know, that Bill Clinton could tell a funny joke. I'll give him that. PeteLeo.
    Nice way to bring it back the ring. You point in a previous thread was great about Jones having long bouts with cans. Sorry Mike, it the truth. I respect that you see things different, but this reason seems sober and not slanted to anyone fighter.

    Also Mike, I think you spent to much time on the "hater" issue. I don't think you are a Monzon hater. You just don't understand him. Heck niether do I, yet his record speak for itself. I dedicated a in entire thread asking the question "Why was Monzon Great?"

    If we looked at a Monzon highlight reel and compared it a Jones highlight reel and asked the a preson who had no knowledge of either who was better, think we all know who would be choose.
    Last edited by JLP 6; 11-30-2008 at 04:52 PM.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    Fair enough. But I'll take the guy with the power disadvantage over the guy with the chin disadvantage any day.
    Jones against a guy with KO power in every shot; I'll take the KO merchant.

    Monzon wasn't the KO merchant

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Just for the record, if the two "prime legends" RJJ beat are Hopkins and Toney, to me Bernard was still well away from his best (see the trouble he had with Segundo Mercado the first time -- including two knockdowns), and I have never considered Toney as being particularly "great." James will certainly get into the HOF (who can't these days?), but he had a mediocre middleweight reign, was easily whupped (by Roy) for his super-middle title, beat a very beatable defending champ for the cruiser title (in a still close duke), and has shown little more than the ability to avoid being KO'd at heavy. Good fighter, yes, but hardly a great one.

    On another note, how do we know that some of those guys Monzon dominated wouldn't have developed into really good/possibly even borderline "great" champs had Carlos not presented a gigantic roadblock for them? I know that for years Gil Clancy was convinced Valdez was potentially the best man he ever worked with (not sure if he still holds that opinion), and that is pretty high praise coming from a trainer who gave us Griffith. Who's to say that, minus Monzon, the Seventies might not now be remembered as the Rodrigo V. years?

    Oh, and Bill Clinton took a haircut really well, too. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb
    Jones against a guy with KO power in every shot; I'll take the KO merchant.

    Monzon wasn't the KO merchant
    It doesn't take a KO merchant to KO Jones (see: Tarver, Johnson)

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    MY RESPONSES ARE IN ALL-CAPS ONLY SO AS TO DISTINGUISH THEM FROM THE QUOTED POST.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo

    Bill Clinton?

    Bill Clinton? Who on this whole site has said two words about Bill (or Hill) Clinton in the past three years? - YOU, WITHIN THE LAST YEAR MORE THAN ONCE. This is a no politics, no religion board, yet somehow Bill Clinton continues to be tossed into the mix to impeach (sorry, I couldn't resist) the opinions of others. I'M NOT THE ONE WHO HAS REPEATEDLY CALLED THESE PEOPLE GARBAGE ON A 'NO POLITICS, NO RELIGION' BOARD. IF THAT'S WHAT THIS BOARD IS, AS YOU SAY, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT.

    Let me get this straight: if I point out that Monzon was a great fighter and a murdering piece of shit as a human being, I'm using some obscure debate club tactic that is beneath the dignity of this discourse, but if I don't praise Mr. Bill to the High Heavens (on a no politics, no religion site), than I'm "throwing stones from within my own glass house"? Something like that? - NO, YOU CALLED SOMEONE A 'HATER', WHICH IS UNTRUE, AND THAT PERSON IS POINTING OUT THAT PERHAPS YOU ARE NOT THE APPROPRIATE GUY TO CALL OTHERS 'HATERS.' ESP. WHEN THEY CONFINE THEIR REMARKS TO FACTUAL OBSERVATIONS OF BOXERS; NOT NAME-CALLING OF THEM, OR OF YOU, OR OF POLITICAL FIGURES ONE DOESN'T LIKE.

    Monzon wasn't particularly concerned with providing the public with hyperactive one-round KOs, and that somehow lessens his status as an all-time great middleweight? Is that what we're saying? Carlos thus drops behind, oh, Graziano, early Nigel Benn, James "Hardrock" Green, Julian Jackson, Billy Papke, and scads of other hell-bent-for-leather bombers who seldom had a "Plan B" to fall back on once "Plan A" flopped, then? - NO, THIS EXAGGERATES MY POINT. I WANTED JUST ONE, HOPEFULLY TWO, SPECTACULAR WINS FROM MONZON; INSTEAD I SAW NONE. DOESN'T MAKE HIM UNWORTHY, BUT IT'S HARD FOR ME TO JUDGE HIM THE BEST MIDDLE EVER OR ONE OF THE BEST P4P EVER. IT MIGHT BE THAT HE WAS NOT CAPABLE OF VICTORY IN THIS MANNER, MAKING HIM NOT AS GOOD AS OTHERS WHO ARE CAPABLE OF IT.

    Well, in that case, I would imagine that an Ali who went forty-one rounds against Frazier without once dropping him, who was extended some twenty or so rounds by soft-chinned Patterson minus any knockdowns, who went fifteen against Alfredo Evangelista (later to be "knocked out" by Holmes with a punch to his forearm), this Ali must be simmering down there in the moldy pot of mediocrity alongside Monzon? Yes? No? - NO, AS I SAID, ALI HAD A NUMBER OF GREAT, WELL-UNDER-THE-DISTANCE VICTORIES (LISTON TWICE, MOORE, FOREMAN, WILLIAMS, LONDON, FOLLEY, COOPER (TWICE), AND BOB FOSTER COME TO MIND). YOU'RE TWISTING THINGS AGAIN. NO ONE HERE SAID A GUY HAS TO WIN THIS WAY EVERY TIME, ONLY THAT CARLOS DID IT, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, NO TIMES.

    By golly, Monzon certainly didn't beat a Hearns, Nunn, Hagler, Jones, Leonard, Calzaghe, Whoever, that's the unvarnished truth. Mainly because they weren't around as legitimate title challengers during his tenure. Ali didn't beat Louis or Dempsey, either. What Carlos did do was fight and defeat every worthy challenger for the middleweight crown during his lengthy, record-setting reign. I thought that was enough. - IT'S OFTEN NOT ENOUGH, SUCH AS WHEN THE NAME LARRY HOLMES COMES UP. HIS CHALLENGERS ARE IMPUNED ALL THE TIME, BUT CARLOS ISN'T HELD TO THE SAME STANDARD. EVEN PBF SOMETIMES, AND CERTAINLY ROY JONES (REGULARLY), ARE KNOCKED FOR THEIR QUALITY OF OPPOSITION. I wasn't aware that he had to defeat everyone -- including dead guys and guys still fighting four-rounders and guys who weren't born yet -- by devastating first-round KO to be considered halfway decent. My mistake. - NOBODY SAID THAT AT ALL.

    You know, that Bill Clinton could tell a funny joke. I'll give him that. PeteLeo.
    Last edited by Michael Frank; 11-30-2008 at 09:46 PM.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by JLP 6
    Nice way to bring it back the ring. You point in a previous thread was great about Jones having long bouts with cans. Sorry Mike, it the truth. I respect that you see things different, but this reason seems sober and not slanted to anyone fighter.

    Also Mike, I think you spent to much time on the "hater" issue. I don't think you are a Monzon hater. You just don't understand him. Heck niether do I, yet his record speak for itself. I dedicated a in entire thread asking the question "Why was Monzon Great?"

    If we looked at a Monzon highlight reel and compared it a Jones highlight reel and asked the a preson who had no knowledge of either who was better, think we all know who would be choose.
    Hey JLP--

    You know, I didn't call anyone names such as "hater;" instead I was called one. So it seemed necessary to make clear who around here has been the hater. Surprised you give him credit for a "nice way to bring it back to the ring," but then I guess I'll never understand all sides to debates.

    The part about the Monzon highlight reel vs. Jones highlights, I respectfully disagree with. I have every one of Monzon's available bouts (to my knowledge), and I see few "highlights" at all. His record is quite impressive once one gets past the early losses and the many early draws, but no, I respectfully don't see it in the highlights. On that score (not a category I'd give major weight), Jones would be rated substantially higher, I feel. Definitely to me, anyway.

    Of course I respect your opinion on Carlos; and most fight fans feel as you guys do. But personally, I just need to see some more defining career victories of his. Perhaps some great KO's from this guy who is reputed to be such a murderous banger, just as an example.

    On paper, yes, his record of consecutive wins is a great one. However, when I actually watch these wins, I am less impressed.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    It doesn't take a KO merchant to KO Jones (see: Tarver, Johnson)
    Hi Surf,

    But, who ever KO'd Jones at middleweight? That's where he'd fight Monzon.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    Just for the record, if the two "prime legends" RJJ beat are Hopkins and Toney, to me Bernard was still well away from his best (see the trouble he had with Segundo Mercado the first time -- including two knockdowns), and I have never considered Toney as being particularly "great." James will certainly get into the HOF (who can't these days?), but he had a mediocre middleweight reign, was easily whupped (by Roy) for his super-middle title, beat a very beatable defending champ for the cruiser title (in a still close duke), and has shown little more than the ability to avoid being KO'd at heavy. Good fighter, yes, but hardly a great one.

    On another note, how do we know that some of those guys Monzon dominated wouldn't have developed into really good/possibly even borderline "great" champs had Carlos not presented a gigantic roadblock for them? I know that for years Gil Clancy was convinced Valdez was potentially the best man he ever worked with (not sure if he still holds that opinion), and that is pretty high praise coming from a trainer who gave us Griffith. Who's to say that, minus Monzon, the Seventies might not now be remembered as the Rodrigo V. years?

    Oh, and Bill Clinton took a haircut really well, too. PeteLeo.

    Pete,

    Many keep forgetting that Hopkins may have been green at the time but so was roy, and roy was fightinig with one hand. He was advised to cancel the fight, but he didnt, and easily outpointed Hopkins in a boring fight. As for Toney, I somewhat share your feelings, but he had great skills.

    On another note, who did monzon beat that was on the same level as these two Hopkins and Toney.

    Finally, your analogy that had it not been for Monzon, that possibly some of his conquest could have become great champions..Hmmm you can say that for any fighter, champion in any division in any era. Had it not been for Ali, who would have been greater in his era. Had it not been Duran who who would have been a great lightweight in his era. So that arguement really is challenged to say the least.

    Then so surf-bat. Hmmm What age did roy get ko'd and are you even remotly considering what Roy and his body went through before these Ko's. Roy had roughly 50 fights, from middlewieht up to heavyweight. Never really went down except for Devalle before he put his body through what has shown to be career damaging strain by adding 25 pounds of muscle then losing it. I guess it is not valid to you Surf - bat, that prior to his issue with muscle gain and then rapid loss, Roy never even went down excvept for once. He then overnight changed before our eyes. I guess Roy who had not legitimally went down or lost a fight prior to what he did to his body, does not get the benefit of the doubt hmmmmm.

    Seems to me that it si clear that Roy may have lacked the quality wins in number that Duran, or Leonard had...However think about this Duran lost in his young/prime years lost to Dejesus even at lightweight. Leoanrd allowed Duran ( a legend) to move up and beat him (even if it was the wrong style), Hearns lost albiet to Ray. Now Duran at lightweight on up to 147 had a lot of wins, but was his resume better than that of Roy's? You have dejesus, Leoanrd, Marcil, Kyobashi, Buchanon, palimino...Roy had Hopkins toney, hill, Griffith, etc.. I give the nod to Duran, but not by much. Everyone will not have a resume like Leoanrd, or DLH ( opposition he didnt reallyl beat a lot of greats solidly). Thus I give Roy credit, he was dominant for 10 years, moved up and beat good champions, not leoanrds, or Durans, but good quality champions, with ease, and even went up to heavy and won. He did not lose validly until he was older and damaged his body. Ohh and the ko's he suffered mighty funny they came AFTER his demise physically.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Frank
    Hi Surf,

    But, who ever KO'd Jones at middleweight? That's where he'd fight Monzon.
    Hi MF-

    Nobody, but I suspect that since his chin was shaky at the higher weight it probably wasn't much better at 160. Pernell Whitaker moved up from his best weight too (135 to 147) and his chin held up, even when as a coke-ravaged shell of his former self he took on one of the most murderous punching fighters in the game (Trinidad). He was nailed and floored many times but kept getting up and flying at Felix, ready for more.

    Jones moved up and got destroyed by two guys who p4p do NOT compare to Trinidad in the power dept. Tarver splattered him with a single shot. It's hard for me to shake that image of Jones lying unconscious on the ground when I consider how he would have done vs all-time greats like Monzon, Hagler, Cerdan, Burley, etc.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 11-30-2008 at 11:43 PM.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    Hi MF-

    Nobody, but I suspect that since his chin was shaky at the higher weight it probably wasn't much better at 160. Pernell Whitaker moved up from his best weight too (135 to 147) and his chin held up, even when as a coke-ravaged shell of his former self he took on one of the most murderous punching fighters in the game (Trinidad). He was nailed and floored many times but kept getting up and flying at Felix, ready for more.

    Jones moved up and got destroyed by two guys who p4p do NOT compare to Trinidad in the power dept. Tarver splattered him with a single shot. It's hard for me to shake that image of Jones lying unconscious on the ground when I consider how he would have done vs all-time greats like Monzon, Hagler, Cerdan, Burley, etc.

    Surf bat-- So again, in your opinion, you dont factor in that Roy had moved up to heavy and won a title, then had to loss 25 pounds of muscle rapidly? In your opinion you dont see a different Roy from before this and after? Also, what about roy for the 45 or so fights before he moved up to heavy.

    Sounds to me like you are biased against Roy, as any intelligent person knows that you cant possibly not realize roy was changed forever due to bulking up and shedding that muscle he just put on.

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