Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

[wpink]

"I will respond to Hawks message next. He and I disagree alot, but I don't consider him a hater. In fact I think he is one of the smartest boxing minds I have had the pleasure of debating with."

Hey Pink, why don't you ask him on a date

AS for Jones' chin. It is suspect and just because he didn't get KO'd
in his 160-168 days doesn't mean it wouldn't happen in a fantasy match.
I just don't see Monzon doing the trick!

WalshB you know I agree with you 90% of the time but sometimes we disagree. Same with Hawk and others. I personlly like anyone that knows there stuff, and most on this board do. Including you.

Now as for your lousy statment..about his suspect chin

Here is my analogy for that. Again, this is all opininions, so you have yours, I have mine, but somewhere to take decent intelligent dialogue people have to have accepted basics, or norms. In this case a suspect Chin.

We may suspect one of having a suspect chin, but if the fighter goes 45 fights with only being knocked down once, and he got up, handled the knockdown like a professional and went on to dominate the fight, and fought naturally at middleweight, then moved up to super middle, lightheavy and then fought a heavy who out weighed him by 30 pounds at least, and took his shots too, no knockdowns etc... But yet and still we say "WITHOUT ANY FACTUAL EVIDENCE, AND BECAUSE WE SIMPLY SUSPECT THIS" that Roy always had a suspect chin, and had nothing to do with his losing muscle rapidly (contrary to what hawk or anyone says he did lose at least 15 pounds muscle rapidly), even though all of a sudden one of the most gifted athletes ever and best conditioned, a athlete who previously played ina semi pro basketball game the same day as having a championship fight..all of a sudden for the first time ever is having issues with Stamina. Then he gets knocked out twice in a row. This same fighter never is able to put punches together again in the manner of Old Roy, never has the instincts again, looks slow and average...But somehow his suspect chin and skills diminishing has nothing to do with what happened after the Ruiz Fight. Wow.......Lets instead of saying haterism..lets say hmmm it is being Wow..I dont know what to call it.

I guess we can say that since Roy had a suspect chin, even though he was never seriously hurt before he turned 34 and had the issues with moving from heavyweight to lightheavy.. I guess we can use the same analog and say Ali was not all that good, he just never met anyone that could be him. Or Duran was not that great at lightweight he just never faced good fighters that would expose him... Leonard was not that fast, he just never faced anyone faster than him. Same thing Roy chin was suspect he just never met anyone the hurt him seriously.

Not making anysense. You can say the same thing for anyfighter. Roy freakin moved up and fought fighters who weighed 160 to 223,,and hmmm how many stoppages did he have until he had to lose weight rapidly?

[walshb]

Pink, I wouldn't say his chin was lousy; just suspect and the shots he was KO'd by in those two bouts were IMO GOOD, but far from dynamite.

He had a better chin than say Norris; but it wasn't a Toney or Eubank chin, and a good
level or two below. I would grade their chins as A+

I would grade Roy's a B.

Bottom line is that just because he didn't suffer the KO loss in the 160-168 reign over 45 bouts?; does not mean he had a great chin THEN. It means that it was still the same chin; just it did not get ultimately whacked and TESTED; all credit to him for being so slick and elusive.

I don't buy the excuse that it was the weight gain and loss etc that may have affected his chin.

I simply believe the guy got hit clean and HIS CHIN did not hold up.

To me, it's black and white. Saying all this, Monzon IMO doesn't KO
Roy, just like BHOP and Toney and others didn't!

That's why I always will have a doubt when say pitting G-Man or Benn against Roy.
He may well win, but if either of these land clean; I think he doesn't get off the canvas.

BTW, glad you saw the funny side to my remark

[wpink]

Roy beat 23 former or Current world champions...2 legends Easily. This does not even count his fights after Ruiz. He was named fighter of the Decade for the 90's almost universally. Was 35 years old before being beaten in the ring, 49 fights. had taken shots form fighters from 160 to 223 (how much ruiz wieghed.). Ruiz while not the best fighter ever at heavyweight or close to it, still was a heavywieght champion, that hurt and stopped other heavyweights including Holyfield, he hurt him. Roy took ruiz's best shots.

Now my friend Surf-bat...sinc you wanted to chim in without actually knowing my stance on Roy completley, let me educate you. I personally think roy took the easy route many times. He could/should have fought fightrers such as Benn, Nunn,DM and when he called out Douglas and Douglas answered him, he punked out. No roy did not face as many top fighters a DLH,Duran, leonard etc. However he did face 23+ former or current world champion, in face many went on after their fight with roy to capture world titles. Correction 20 of these where world champions 3 where champions only in the states. That is one half of his fights if you consider his fights with Tarver, Johnson, Calzaghe, Trinidad etc..where vs very good competion. Yet he never lost until he was 35, 48-1 (dq), and regardless of how we sum it up, he was never that same after the ruiz fight.

Surf...you state one thing that baffles me. You say Roy met his first gut check and failed in Tarver. So until he was 35 and having faced 2 legends 23 champions none of these posed a test to roy? Maybe not a major major challenge but your saying roy simply faced bums until he met Tarver? Wow.

Did you forget the 1st Tarver fight, when roy who is regarded as one of the best conditioned and best athletes to ever step in the ring, was probably 60% physically for tarver, you could see his sunken face, he could barely move in the beginning throught the end of the fight, yet he still outfought this fighter whom in your terms (posed the 1st test for roy) in the middle of the ring and in the championship rounds. Are suggesting that Prime roy reflexed and speed would not have overwhelmed Tarver. Are you suggesting, that prime Roy would not have been able to take Tarvers shots generally (they can always get ko'd), are you suggesting that the roy would get hit by a fighter who outweighed him by 30+ pounds did not face a major chin test, Are you suggesting that we totally forget about the accomplishments Roy had for the 49 fights up to age 35 and thus remember him for his failures afterwards...Wow.

Then if so, then we gauge Duran, chavez, leaonrd, Ali, all the same way. they all failed when they met their 1st test at a older age, thus they we forget the prime years. You have a very harsh scale.

Finally, I do not think Ruiz was a great champion, in fact i think roy got a gift in fighing him. However we have to still give him credit for fighting and beating a solid heavywieght champion, not a great one or a very good one, but a solid heavywieght champion. No one is saying Roy was a great heavyweight.

[hawk5ins]

"Then if so, then we gauge Duran, chavez, leaonrd, Ali, all the same way. they all failed when they met their 1st test at a older age, thus they we forget the prime years."

Did Duran not prove his mettle rising from the floor twice from Esteban DeJesus?

Did Chavez not prove his mettle by gritting it out agianst an (finally) inspired Juan Laporte (thought Chavez lost, but that is besides the point) and never quitting agaisnt Meldrick Taylor?

Did Leonard not show his grit agianst Duran in the first fight and tough it out down the stretch agianst Hearns?

Did Ali not show what he was made of agianst Frazier in 2 of their 3 bouts?

All of these fighters faced stern tests and while some may have gone on to lose the fights they were tested in, they ultimately answered the tests by continuing on until the very end.

Tarver and Johnson are not big punchers. Yet when they hit Jones with excellent shots, he went O-U-T. Could the weight loss have taken something from him? It's possible. If so, it would have been his speed and his reflexes. Losing weight isn't going to make your chin more vulnerable.

Personally, I think Jones did show some guts in the 1st Tarver fight. I think that was a bit of a gut check for him. Tarver landed some good shots, but certainly nothing extrodinary. Anyone think of a specific punch that stood out in whihc you said: "WHOA. What a Chin Jones has". I can't think of anything specific.

Jones' defensive tactics and superb reflexes DID keep him from getting his chin reached while at lower weights. Credit to him for being able to stay out of danger and NOT getting tested.

But of those opponents he did face PRE-Ruiz, are we seeing anything ELITE or Top shelf? The two biggest names are obviously Hopkins and Toney.

Hopkins, at the time he faced Jones, was considered about the 4th or 5th even 6th best Middleweight in world.

Sample rankings: Prior to Jones Hopkins, KO Magazine had him ranked 4th, behind in order: Julian Jackson, Reggie Johnson and Roy Jones. And Just ahead of Kalambay and McClellen. After the fight, he was dropped to #11 in the division.

Ring Magazine had Bernard #6 behind in order (and understand the difference had to do with McClellen beating Julian Jackson between printings) McClellen, Johnson, Jones, Jackson, and Kalambay. After the fight, they only dropped him to #7.

Hopkins BTW, did not become THE man in the Middleweight division until 1996 and didn't even enter the LB for LB rankings for the first time until 1998 and did not become a permanent Top 10 fixutre until after he KO'd Robert Allen in their rematch in 1999.

The point in all of this is to illustrate that beating Hopkins WHEN he did in 1993, was not the equivilant of beating a legendary champion that Hopkins would eventually become. Was Jones himself a bit Green? Somewhat so. But he was CLEARLY much closer to HIS prime than was Hopkins was when they squared off. Heck, prior to Beating Hopkins, Jones was given top 10 LB for LB consideration by KO and the RIng. Bernard doesn't sniff those accolades for another 5 years.

As far as Toney goes, well we all know what chance that fat slob gave himself by struggling to make weight and entering the ring drained. If you are going to give Jones a Pass for being weak and drained for Tarver, certainly the same must be afforded to Toney.

That said, I have never viewed Toney as great fighter. Very good one bordering on excellent, yes. Too many Tiberi and Johnson and Griffin showings for my taste. And being off set by beating up Iran Barkley who was coming down from cruiserweight to face Toney (agian, if Jones gets the pass from you for draining himself to come down in weight, certainly Barkley gets a pass here as well), rallying to Ko Nunn and drawing with Mike McCallum (Thought Mike won the rematch BTW), just doesn't do it for me. Never has. Never will.

Other names on his resume? Virgil Hill. Was coming off a layoff and in his previous bout was dominated and battered by Dariuz Mich. And the body punch was a Kidney shot. Intentional or not, that's what it was.

98 year old McCallum? Good for Roy.

Reggie Johnson at 175? Johnson was not a Light Heavy. He was a blown up Middle. WHo beat James Toney but not much else.

Ruiz?

Billy Conn beat Bob Pastor. Archie Moore beat Nino Valdes. Harry Greb beat Bill Brennen. Ezzard Charles was the WORLD Heavyweight champ and beat Joe Louis and Jersey Joe Walcott. All these guys started thier careers at 160 or below and has had success at heavyweight. And all the fighters I just mentioned that they beat, are all superior to Whatever John Ruiz's value is.

So NO. Beating John Ruiz does not impress me at all. And it certainly does not equate to beating the Heavyweight champion of the world.

COULD Monzon KO Jones? Sure. I would assume Jones plays it safe defensively and Monzone settles for a Clear points win. I do think Monzon hits harder than Glenn Johnson did, at 160 or 175. ANd he's much more talented. So with Monzon hunting an increasingly frustrated Jones, a late rounds stoppage is very possible.

See Post #141 in this thread for my complete breakdown of this fight.

Hope this covered it.

Hawk

[walshb]

Technically, 'losing weight' CAN make ones chin more vulnerable. In Jones case, I don't think it made much, if any difference.

Think about it. If you do not lose the weight in an efficient and sensible manner, then YES, it can have effects.

Chin is not JUST CHIN. Stamina, conditioning and weight can effect a fighters ability to take a a shot and recover. The better condition a fighter is in, I would say the better the chance he has of taking and recovering from a shot

I think we should be clear on this. Muhammad Ali had a great chin, Hagler had a great chin!

Why? Well, they were born with the ability to take a great shot; but also, their stamina
and conditioning also made a difference.

Now, would Hagler take Earnie's best shots?

No, why?

Well, because Hagler was a middleweight and Earnie a heavyweight. Weight plays a ROLE!

If a fighter does NOT manage his weight loss properly and does not
allow himself the proper time to lose the weight, YES, he can suffer in the RING and
his ability to take a shot can be harmed.

Again, in Jones' case, I don't think it was all that significant

[walshb]

Technically, 'losing weight' CAN make ones chin more vulnerable. In Jones' case, I don't think it made much, if any difference.

Think about it. If you do not lose the weight in an efficient and sensible manner, then YES, it can have effects.

Chin is not JUST CHIN. Stamina, conditioning and weight can effect a fighters ability to take a a shot and recover. The better condition a fighter is in, I would say the better the chance he has of taking and recovering from a shot

I think we should be clear on this. Muhammad Ali had a great chin, Hagler had a great chin!

Why? Well, they were born with the ability to take a great shot; but also, their stamina
and conditioning made a difference.

Now, would Hagler take Earnie's best shots?

No, why?

Well, because Hagler was a middleweight and Earnie a heavyweight. Weight plays a ROLE!

If a fighter does NOT manage his weight loss properly and does not
allow himself the proper time to lose the weight, YES, he can suffer in the RING and
his ability to take a shot can be harmed.

Again, in Jones' case, I don't think it was all that significant

Here's one to think about. Just a little question, hypothetically speaking

Does anyone believe that Roy Jones from the Ruiz fight would have taken the Tarver and Johnson shots better?

I definitely think he does. He was bigger, stronger and sturdier. Hence, weight and efficient weight management can HELP.

But ultimately, my point is that if a fighter loses weight inefficiently and in too little time without
the proper care and management, then it will see him suffer from shots that he
otherwise may well have taken

[hawk5ins]

Jones had nearly 3 and a half months to get back down to 175.

Between Ruiz and Tarver I, 8 mos went by. Much of that time was spent trying to negotiate a fight with Holyfield or Tyson. When neither bout was deemed financially rewarding enough for Jones, he opted to defend agianst Tarver, who if everyone recalls, showed up at the Ruiz post fight press conference baiting Roy.

Roy did not make a decision at the last second to drop down to 175. He purposefully gave himself plenty of time to do so. Much more time than EMM was given to face Micheal Spinks following his blubbery bout with Snipes.

Again, we are probably talking around 15 to 20 pounds Roy needed to drop vs. the normal 13 to 15 he typically dropped when entering camp.

And THIS camp was specifically longer to afford time to do so.

Nothing was rushed. It wasn't 25 pounds of solid muscle.

Jones struggled none the less.

Of course let's also remember, we were also told that becuase this was a harder camp for Roy, fans were going to see "RJ" and Tarver was going to feel "RJ's" wrath.

he he he he he he.

Hawk

[Dan Gunter]

I don't know why everyone doubts whether RJJ was tested during his prime. After all, he went toe-to-toe with tough Vinnie Pazienza and beat him decisively. And during the fight, Jones took some of Pazienza's hardest right hands--and elbows--and wasn't even wobbled.

(Yes, this is a joke.)

(That said, I still feel a lovely, warm and fuzzy feeling in my heart when I think of Pazienza getting beat up and floored by Jones.)

(And, finally: my apologies to all of Pazienza's fans here on the board. I do not mean to offend you.)

[hawk5ins]

When I think of Pazienza and Jones and when I hear the words Steroids, I think of Pazienza.

Hawk

[walshb]

Fellas, anyone having trouble trying to post new threads?

I cannot seem to POST a new thread on the zone

Well, if anyone else is experiencing this problem, let me know, or better still; let
Gor and Mike know

[Michael Frank]

A couple of points:

I don't think it's all about whether Jones had months or weeks, or even days to lose the weight, or whether it was all muscle or not--people who know more about it than I do say his dropping the weight may have hurt his chin--and that's good enough for me. It sounds more reasonable to me than the notion that "the weight loss just plain didn't affect his chin--with certainty." I don't think anyone can be certain about such a thing, but common sense (at least mine) tells me a guy is weaker in multiple ways when he's dropped significant weight.

Second, I don't think getting KO'd only at the END of a (stellar) career casts a shadow for his chin over his ENTIRE career, as has been said by one or more posters. That is a far stretch; the guy was certainly hit in his many early fights, and not dropped.

Here again, for some reason Monzon is judged on an entirely different scale. He WAS dropped once at 160, but because he got up quickly, he's adjudged to have a "great chin"--and this was a guy who also was not clocked right on the chin, hardly at all, his entire career. Well, same with Roy. Roy's middleweight chin should not be penalized for NOT getting whacked any more than Monzon's is penalized for not getting whacked--and I recall heated replies here--when I simply questioned Carlos's chin-- that "just because Monzon was not nailed, that doesn't mean he doesn't have a GREAT chin."

So, perhaps we can treat the 2 fighters equally in our assessment process?

Lastly, on the point of Monday morning QB-ing, there were some good replies to my own post asking for people to remember what they were thinking back when Roy was considered the best of the best--which was for not a brief period. The names Liston and Tyson were floated in a good post by PeteLeo. I would only suggest that both Liston and Tyson ARE considered great or near-great fighters for their accomplishments, not losers or freaks or never-was's. Each had a reign that cannot be erased by later failures.

Their overall careers, KO losses and all, should be considered in evaluating them all-time; but, in a best-to-best fantasy match-up, to say Tyson didn't have a chin, for example, or that Liston didn't have a chin, is belied by the footage of each in his prime. Years of hardly suffering a nick, for both.

And if the idea is that, well, Tyson (for example) was really an over-rated pussycat, but it's just that no one had really challenged him in the 1980s, I'd reply that being beaten by Holyfield and Lewis doesn't mean that ANYONE can beat him and therefore he's a cream puff. His most embarrassing later losses to lesser-lites Williams and McBride were 20 freaking years after he turned pro! I mean, lets have some semblance of an idea of when a guy's actual prime is, versus when he's just a pug hanging on for a payday. In Mike's prime, Douglas didn't even "expose" his chin; because Mike showed that he could take a wallop all night long, before, eventually, succumbing (to an accumulation of hundreds of shots) in the 10th round.

When Ali fought 20 years after turning pro (against Holmes), his performance was just as pitiful as Tyson's losses to McBride and Williams, if in a different way. And, by the way, Ali's chin in that fight was not "good" just because he didn't fall; he was getting hurt all the time by Holmes (could his chin have been affected by "weight loss" a la RJJ, heaven forbid???). But Ali was not fighting to win, only to survive; and Oliver McCall has possibly best showed that this sort of effort will indeed keep one on one's feet even against a slugger like Lennox, even in the midst of a mental breakdown.

[hawk5ins]

Of a Fighter having to struggle to make/lose weight being weaker and thus his chin being more vulnerable.

I'll buy that.

The problem here is Jones was not struggling to lose weight or having had to drop significant weight or significant muscle mass......for the 2ND Tarver fight or the Glen Johnson fight.

His "rapid" 3 and a half month weight loss, was in the first Tarver fight.

Hawk

[Michael Frank]

I honestly don't even think "rapid" or "struggling" have to be requirements in this analysis. Had the guy taken a year to drop the weight, he now has a smaller body, and whether it's less mass to absorb shock, or some other reason, my common sense says his chin was better when he was bigger.

However, my common sense may be wrong; I claim no certain knowledge on this subject.

[TDKO]

Something happened to Roy between Ruiz and Tarver I

In the pre-fight interview in RJJ Tarver I , in his dressing room Roy did look gaunt, but NOTICEABLY absent was his extreme confidence and ego!
He also was taliking about , "how tough this game is", almost a prefight excuse if you will.
Whether this was from the removing of weight and muscle, or because Tarver
had his number, (which is what Tarver claims), stopping the juice, (pure speculation), or a combo of the these, remains uncertain, but he has not had
the same look of confidence prefight since Ruiz, and has not been the same fighter since.
I am in the camp of his chin was average at best, but his reflexes, speed and legs were good enough to not have it tested, except by one of his ex-sparring partners, (Devalle), who dropped him, but did not hurt him.
But as another poster mentioned, the WAY he went down against Johnson was scary, even though past prime.

[wpink]

Jones had nearly 3 and a half months to get back down to 175.

Between Ruiz and Tarver I, 8 mos went by. Much of that time was spent trying to negotiate a fight with Holyfield or Tyson. When neither bout was deemed financially rewarding enough for Jones, he opted to defend agianst Tarver, who if everyone recalls, showed up at the Ruiz post fight press conference baiting Roy.

Roy did not make a decision at the last second to drop down to 175. He purposefully gave himself plenty of time to do so. Much more time than EMM was given to face Micheal Spinks following his blubbery bout with Snipes.

Again, we are probably talking around 15 to 20 pounds Roy needed to drop vs. the normal 13 to 15 he typically dropped when entering camp.

And THIS camp was specifically longer to afford time to do so.

Nothing was rushed. It wasn't 25 pounds of solid muscle.

Jones struggled none the less.

Of course let's also remember, we were also told that becuase this was a harder camp for Roy, fans were going to see "RJ" and Tarver was going to feel "RJ's" wrath.

he he he he he he.

Hawk

Hawk,


I think the only difference in what we are saying is I believe that Roy TRAINING UP to 190 ( or whatever he actually weighed) and being solid that night and condidtioned to go the 12 rounds easily as he did, to me means this weight he carried when he fought ruiz was solid and not walk around weight that he would lose by simply going through his normal training camp.

I beleive this sincerley and also have to believe Roys' own words when he said that this was the hardest thing he ever had to do in his life, that he had to stay away from family because his mood was sooo bad going through what he had to, to get down the first time. I think that the damage he did at first getting back down, coupled with the onset of age, impacted his reflexes. I am no scientist but it appears some fast twitch muscles reflexes, instincts, speed, and stamina all where gone once he emerged from the ruiz fight.

I simply ask this. Why before the fight, was he able to do ungodly things, have cat like reflexes, last the entire fight with out barely breaking a sweat. Then all of sudden he has nothing left for Tarver one, has to gut it out with a Fighter the level of Tarver, whom he clearly visably had nothing for, and was simply a shell of himself in that fight, and he still won. Was it not just a year before the Ruiz fight that, he had the instinct enough to put his hands behind his head and slip a punch by Glen Kelly and drop him with a split second counter. Then he emerges from the Ruiz fight, and can even keep himself upright on the ropes for periods in a fight with Tarver.

As for your statment about green Hopkins. I agree, however wasnt Leonard green when he faced Duran the first time. Yeh sure he faced benetiz but is clealry was not the leoanrd that he faced the 2nd time as far as technique, intelligence and mental toughness, even upper body strength. We dont discredit duran for that win. Also I disagree with you pointing to rankings as barameter of the fighter. Rankings are opinions. Many times people are ranked low, and after they show their true worth their ranking goes way up, thus the ranking was not a valid indicator this fighter. Sugar shane mosley was ranked the best pound per pound in the world until he met Forrest. I dont think Forrest was even ranked in the top 10 pound per pound category. However he got his ass handed to him twice. So rankings a great to look at, but I dont place much merit in them. I judge what a fighter does inside the ring, versus other that have proven to be top fighters.

Now where I agree with you is that those names that Roy have for the most part, are not earth shakers. However I have always said that. They are world champions however. Roy fought a pretty good resume. I have already indicated he ducked some fighters in my opinion, and I also said Ruiz was not some great or even very good heavyweight. He was however a heavyweight champion, who outweighed roy by 30+ pounds. So not sure how we not credit roy for wins, but give duran credit for beating Moore who had like 10 fights or Barkly who did beat hearns but was by no means a great fighter. Ruiz was not great, but Roy deserves credit for winning the heavyweight title, and the manner in which he did it. Yes roy took the easiest route, and again I already said that.

Finally.... are we not talking about Roy vs Monzon at 160. Well has roy even been dinted at 160? Roy whips the matt with Monzon. I dont even see this as a competitive fight. I see it something like Ali vs Liston. Roy speed would completley overwhelm Monzon, and judging by what we know and have witnessed not our opinion, roy chin stood up to all comers at 160.

[Ron Lipton]

In all these posts not one mention is made of how Roy had tested positive for steroids and what a tremendous doubt this casts on any kind of natural performance while his opponents did not test positive for steroids.

Look at his build and how it changed before and after. How Paz and Holyfield got away with it also is beyond me besides knowing they had experts in the use of performing enhancing drugs in their entourage and the screening of them.

What does it matter how much natural talent or guts or speed someone has when they are adding these drugs to their training?

Totally unfair in boxing as it is in baseball.

[Michael Frank]

In all these posts not one mention is made of how Roy had tested positive for steroids and what a tremendous doubt this casts on any kind of natural performance while his opponents did not test positive for steroids.

Look at his build and how it changed before and after. How Paz and Holyfield got away with it also is beyond me besides knowing they had experts in the use of performing enhancing drugs in their entourage and the screening of them.

What does it matter how much natural talent or guts or speed someone has when they are adding these drugs to their training?

Totally unfair in boxing as it is in baseball.

Hey Ron,

Certainly, I am with you on that score. But, as you say, what about Paz, Holyfield, and the hundreds (or thousands) of baseball players, football players, track athletes, etc. who are juiced?

Since I am one who wants to see clean sports, I'm all for banning everyone caught--and for a lifetime. Anything less is just paying lip service, and playing games.

[Surf-Bat]

wpink:

"Roy beat 23 former or Current world champions..."

"Ruiz....still was a heavywieght champion...a solid heavywieght champion"

These comments above clearly illustrate why you and I can never find common ground. Our views on what constitutes a "Champion" are worlds apart. Anyone who wears a meaningless alphabet title to you is a "champion", regardless if it's WBO, WBU, MIA, VIP, RIP or heavyweight champion of my living room. Roy Jones beat some champs, but many of those you credit with being "champs" were TITLISTS. Champions by committee. Nothing more. Belt holders. Not champions.

If one were to listen to you one would think that Jones' accomplishments were on par with Henry Armstrong's or Ray Robinson's.




"Now my friend Surf-bat...sinc you wanted to chim in"

Read post #300 for the original "chim in"



"Surf...you state one thing that baffles me. You say Roy met his first gut check and failed in Tarver. So until he was 35 and having faced 2 legends 23 champions none of these posed a test to roy?"

And you baffle me, Pink. For asking a question you yourself ALREADY answered in other posts. Read the following:


"the result was that he left unscarred pretty much everytime he got in the ring, due to reflexes, no matter who he fought what weight class he fought them at."

"No one single fighter ever really gave him a great challenge"

"The biggest challenge he had, he responded with at 1st round ko."

"My point is Roy beat some very good fighters 2 all time greats, rather easily,"


These were ALL your quotes, Pink. Your talent for contradicting yourself "baffles" me

[hawk5ins]

My comments on those two All time greats, needs to be analized a bit further.

One was IMO a Great, but no where near where he was when he became a great.

The Other, Who IMO was NOT a Great, simply was no where near his best (his own fault) when he stepped into the ring.

What is this List of 23 champs anywho?

If we are going to use this number, let's at least put up the list as to who they were and maybe a comment or two where they were when Jones faced them.

Jorge Vaca to Felix Trinidad. Let's see the list.

Hawk

[wpink]

wpink:

"Roy beat 23 former or Current world champions..."

"Ruiz....still was a heavywieght champion...a solid heavywieght champion"

These comments above clearly illustrate why you and I can never find common ground. Our views on what constitutes a "Champion" are worlds apart. Anyone who wears a meaningless alphabet title to you is a "champion", regardless if it's WBO, WBU, MIA, VIP, RIP or heavyweight champion of my living room. Roy Jones beat some champs, but many of those you credit with being "champs" were TITLISTS. Champions by committee. Nothing more. Belt holders. Not champions.

If one were to listen to you one would think that Jones' accomplishments were on par with Henry Armstrong's or Ray Robinson's.




"Now my friend Surf-bat...sinc you wanted to chim in"

Read post #300 for the original "chim in"



"Surf...you state one thing that baffles me. You say Roy met his first gut check and failed in Tarver. So until he was 35 and having faced 2 legends 23 champions none of these posed a test to roy?"

And you baffle me, Pink. For asking a question you yourself ALREADY answered in other posts. Read the following:


"the result was that he left unscarred pretty much everytime he got in the ring, due to reflexes, no matter who he fought what weight class he fought them at."

"No one single fighter ever really gave him a great challenge"

"The biggest challenge he had, he responded with at 1st round ko."

"My point is Roy beat some very good fighters 2 all time greats, rather easily,"


These were ALL your quotes, Pink. Your talent for contradicting yourself "baffles" me

Surf....first off I am not trying to find common ground with you. I completely disagree with you, someone who targets Roy with biased opinions. He has a suspect chin, but you cant point to one area where this was proven during his peak years or at middleweight, which by the way is what this debate is about, Roy vs Monzon at middleweight. Most others have pointed out that Roy may have had a suspect chin but it was not exposed until AFTER his reflexes left him, and when he was older etc... However, your on here contending that you know he chin was suspect even when he peak, as if you personally dropped him in a sparring match.

I stopped reading your post at common ground, because, I am not attempting to find common ground on this subject with you. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that. You can have your opinions, and those opinions are just as respected as mine. I dont personally consider you a hater as I dont know you. However, I do consider your points about Roy, where you leave out his 49 fights previous to Tarver, his 35 years previous in age before Tarver, his successful bids or titles at middle, super middle, light and heavy...I see your attempt to completley avooid those FACTS.. and try to substitute these with your opinions that Roy never faced any chin or gut checks. Hmmm maybe Surf...he was simply that good.

I ask you this... When you buy a car, you want it to be reliable but you would sure like it more if didnt get into a car wreck in the first place. You targeting roy for not gettinig his chin checked...How about he that good that he eliminated us even having to find out. Is that his fault? He may not have fought leonards, durans, hagler, foremans, etc.. However he did fight a pretty good group of fighters and did so from 160 to 175 and beating a..not the, not even the best, but he beat A heavyweight champion. Regardless of your opinion. Those are facts.

Roy will also go down as the best figher of the 90's regardless of opinions. So when it comes to meeting on common ground, unless your willling to move zip codes to the ground I am on, I don't see that happening.

When i get back, I will read the rest of your post!

[hawk5ins]

Jorge Vaca
Bernard Hopkins
Thulane Maligna
James TOney
Vinnie Pazienza
Eric Lucas
Mike McCallum
Montell Griffin
Virgil Hill
Lou Del Valle
Reggie Johnson
Antonio Tarver
Clinton Woods
John Ruiz
Felix Trinidad

Some of these guys....you GOTTA have astericks next to their names. There needs to be detail about when they were champs or titeists, what divisions and how far they were removed from their primes or to where they could even be considered championship level or great fighters.

Who Am I missing? and How do we get to Jones beating 23 world champions?

I'm simply curious as the number SOUNDS impressive, but I'm not certain it's not inflated or innaccruate.

Pink, BTW:

"Roy will also go down as the best figher of the 90's regardless of opinions."

Who is a fighter for a particular decade is based ONLY on opinions. One can say Holyfield, one can say Jones or one can say Whitaker. Heck, one could say Thierry Jacob if they wanted to.

There is no conclusive way of deciding this beyond soliciting opinions.

Hawk

[Surf-Bat]

I see your attempt to completley avooid those FACTS.. and try to substitute these with your opinions that Roy never faced any chin or gut checks.

Apparently this is YOUR opinion as well (read the rest of my post[in red] for clarification)

[wpink]

Jorge Vaca
Bernard Hopkins
Thulane Maligna
James TOney
Vinnie Pazienza
Eric Lucas
Mike McCallum
Montell Griffin
Virgil Hill
Lou Del Valle
Reggie Johnson
Antonio Tarver
Clinton Woods
John Ruiz
Felix Trinidad

Some of these guys....you GOTTA have astericks next to their names. There needs to be detail about when they were champs or titeists, what divisions and how far they were removed from their primes or to where they could even be considered championship level or great fighters.

Who Am I missing? and How do we get to Jones beating 23 world champions?

I'm simply curious as the number SOUNDS impressive, but I'm not certain it's not inflated or innaccruate.

Pink, BTW:

"Roy will also go down as the best figher of the 90's regardless of opinions."

Who is a fighter for a particular decade is based ONLY on opinions. One can say Holyfield, one can say Jones or one can say Whitaker. Heck, one could say Thierry Jacob if they wanted to.

There is no conclusive way of deciding this beyond soliciting opinions.

Hawk

Glen kelly was the ibf champion
Julio Cesar Gonzalez ibf and wbo
Thomas Tate won several championships..

I am sitting in my car running late to a dinner appointment so I don't have time to supply the other names. But there are 23 champions he beat, not counting Tarver.

Now I am not saying as I said repeatedly and will keep saying these where not great champions..all of them. However they where champions and this is impressive. Is it legendary stuff no, but to say that Roy only had a real challenge opponent wise when he face and got stopped by Tarver is completley stupid and ridiculous. Hawk, I am not saying you said that. However what I am responding to Hawk is that you of all people point repeatedly refer to pound per pound polls to justify fighters like Arguello ranking at the time he fought Pryor. Well Pound per Pound Roy was the top person through out most of the 90's, at least from 95 on. He also was generally regarded by many respected opinions as the fighter of the decade for the 90's.

Yes it is all opinions, but still I am in amazement at how people are going above and beyound to try to discredit Roy Jones and point to things that just where not there. Such as Losses during his peak years or up until he turned 35, and a glass jaw..You may think he had one ( again this is not directed at Hawk, just in reference to what is being discussed) but what can you factually point out that before he fought ruiz or got old,,etc shows this. Nothing. and yes he did fight champions with ko's under their belt at middle, super middle, and light heavy..and even Heavy weight.

[hawk5ins]

Here for him re the valuelessness of even ACTUAL alpha baubles, but these three don'e even qualify for "legitimate" alpha titleists.

Glen Kelly was an IBF Inter Continental Champ at 175 and an IBF Pan Pacific titleist at Cruiser. These are not World titles.

Tate never won anything on a world title level above an NABF title. This is a Continental title. Not world title. He won WBU Super Middleweight title, but please tell me you aren't qualifying that as legitimate. WBU and IBA and IBO and the 100's of other acronym championships, don't even have the "prestige" that The WBA, WBC and IBF have. Heck they pale to even the WBO.

And speaking of which, I guess you got me on Gonzales. He ultimately became the WBO Light Heavyweight champion when he beat Dariusz Mich. in 2003. But that pales to his being the reigning: WBO NABO light heavyweight Champion, the WBC FECARBOX light heavyweight Champion and the IBA Continental Light Heavyweight champion, when he squared off with Jones in 2001.

Pink, if you are not seeing the complete absurdity in all of this, in what is and what is NOT a champion.....Yikes.

Hawk

[wpink]

Here for him re the valuelessness of even ACTUAL alpha baubles, but these three don'e even qualify for "legitimate" alpha titleists.

Glen Kelly was an IBF Inter Continental Champ at 175 and an IBF Pan Pacific titleist at Cruiser. These are not World titles.

Tate never won anything on a world title level above an NABF title. This is a Continental title. Not world title. He won WBU Super Middleweight title, but please tell me you aren't qualifying that as legitimate. WBU and IBA and IBO and the 100's of other acronym championships, don't even have the "prestige" that The WBA, WBC and IBF have. Heck they pale to even the WBO.

And speaking of which, I guess you got me on Gonzales. He ultimately became the WBO Light Heavyweight champion when he beat Dariusz Mich. in 2003. But that pales to his being the reigning: WBO NABO light heavyweight Champion, the WBC FECARBOX light heavyweight Champion and the IBA Continental Light Heavyweight champion, when he squared off with Jones in 2001.

Pink, if you are not seeing the complete absurdity in all of this, in what is and what is NOT a champion.....Yikes.

Hawk

Hawk,

It seems we are having 2 different arguements here. One with you, and one with others. Sure these are alphabet titles. Sure these are not great great fighters. Sure Roy did not have a proven granit chin, in fact many seem to think that because he did not take punishment to prove a granit chin, then we are to assume that in a time frame in his career when he have nothing else to go on besides the fact that he didnt prove a granit chin, that we should simply say he had a glass jaw.

I agree and have always agreed Hawk ( i think you and I have been on the same side in previous debates about Roy) where I was arguing the point that Roy can not be considered the best ever or better than a leonard or duran pound per pound because he did not fight all comers and did not face as many top contenders. I still believe as I have said in my previous post that Roy clearly took the easy route some time. There are several he did not face. He took the easiest Heavyweight champion in recent memory or close. I believe I have posted on this board that Ruiz was a bum, handpicked by Roy to get a shot at the heavyweight title, and Ruiz was actually ko'd in 20 seconds or something like that by Tua.

Hawk...and others my point IS NOT AND NEVER HAS been that Roy resume is all star fillled etc. My point is that in comparing him to others, he does not come up short Generally. Does he come up short to DLH in competition, Yes. Does he come up short to Duran Leonard Whitacker in top level comp that he beat, yes. Does he have the 3-4 or 5 top names Like leoanrd has that he beat to justify him having a top all time pound per pound ranking NO!

However, my frusteration here with you and others that I know are super boxing minds, and those that make the very arguement in justification of fighters like Duran, leonard etc.. Is that Roy was pretty much dominant during the 90's. Once again based on the facts and he did beat two great fighters regardless of the attempts now to discredit these fighters. He also beat 23 champions. You correctly broke out that 16 of these where world champions others like WBO and IBF which to me ( Internationsl and World Boxing Organizaion is another alphabet title sure, but still a belt. Hell we have many bums that hold WBA and WBC belts). My point Hawk I know you know what I am saying, is that 23 of these fighters where quality to good or very good fighters. How many top tier fighters did Ray beat that are better than the quality that Roy faced, and it is quality alone that has ray in most top rankings,as quantity he comes up short in. Could we say hmmm Duran, Hagler, hearns, Benetiz, Kalule. 5. Out of these 5 if we follow the same discrediting process that people are doing to the fighters Roy faced, then hmmm hearns was still green. Benetiz did not train properly, Duran moved up, Hagler was over the hill, Kalule..hmmm who was he and look at what he did after he fought ray.... We can do the same for Durans accomplishments. leoanrd was green. Moore only had 9 wins. Dejesus beat him once and possibly was suffering from weakness due to aids, Kyboshi had already lost many fights so had Marcil. Duran refused to rematch Buchanon, etc.. We can play the discredit game all night long on almost every figher that steps in a ring, if we simply want to sit home and target a fighter and try our best to tear down factual accomplishments and belittle the fighter.

The original arguement here was Roy vs Monzon at middleweight. We all have opinions on who would win. That is the meaning for this sight. No problem. My point supporting Roy is that at his peak he had never been knocked down except for once and easily rebounded from that knockdown and won the fight. Hmmm Ray leonard who is regarded as having a great chin at welterweight pretty much had the same type of career. In fact leoanrd got hurt by Duran ( a ligthweight who moved up), got hurt by Geraldo, and one other fighter early on. But what baffles me is that we say Roy had a shot chin, and do not factor in at all that Maybe just Maybe his losing `15 pounds to 20 pounds of muscle ( there is a difference between Roy that walked in the ring trained and in shape for Ruiz, physically read for a fight & The roy that enters into training camp weighing 188 before the ruiz fight. That diffeence IMO is muscle and this is harder to get off and Maybe just Maybe there is a link to his demise in speed reflexes ability to take punches, stamina and none of this showing up until after the ruiz fight.

No Hawk, I am baffled that you are arguing that the Roy that emerged from the Ruiz fight and after is the same as before.

Roy at Middleweight never got rocked, was a unheard of combination of speed power reflexes, and if this combination means that he does not get hit and hurt, then so be it. The end result is the same (win) with out the wear and tear on ones chin. I personally think that Roy beat Monzon and we leave this fight with the same questions that we had all along about roy during his peak years.

Hell maybe roy did have a glass chin. My point is, that we do not have anything to accurately show this, thus it is a far reach IMO to simply say well he had a glass jaw, even thought for 49 fights and until he reached age 35, and two weight classes higher, and finally after going through the weight loss issues...Seems we are ignoring a lot of facts, simply to push the agenda belittling Roy and his supposed glass jaw.

[PeteLeo]

Uh . . . did I ever post that I think best Monzon beats best Jones?

I forget.

PeteLeo.

[wpink]

Uh . . . did I ever post that I think best Monzon beats best Jones?

I forget.

PeteLeo.

Naw you posted it...haha.

[hawk5ins]

is found in the fighter and his accomplishments and if judging Jones on who he beat, we need to qualify that quality as to WHEN Jones beat them.

Giving credit to Jones for beating 23 (still don't see how you get to that number) champions without qualifying each fighter as to What "title" they won and where they were in thier respective careers when Roy faced them is extremely misleading.

Going back to the orginal discussion, it seems on the surface, that Jones is getting more credit, for beating Jorge Vaca, a shot fighter, by the time Roy faced, who won the Welterweight title via DQ several years prior to facing Jones.

Carlos Monzon on the other hand, beat Bennie Briscoe in Bennie's prime. Yet with Bennie not being able to drape any title claim over his shoulder, the Value of of who Roy beat, "One of 23 champs he faced" clearly intimates that a win over Vaca holds more weight and merit than Monzon beating Briscoe.

My apologies Pink but that is just flat out WRONG.

Hawk

[Sharkey]

If 23 champs beat is sheepishly admitted to be the equivalent of saying: 'Well, I know they weren't all REAL Champs... and I'm not saying they were real champs or even really good fighters, just sayin...'...

... what is the point of using the '23 champs beat' phrase to begin with? An examination of the fighters themselves is the thing. Especially in this age of a champ per zip code.

Resume filler should be saved for lying to get a better pay scale or a new job. Jones doesn't need help in the fistic appreciation department through blostering up stats. His films speak loudly enough to me.

If we get into the habit of having to get to 2000 feet views to compare fighters because we feel a closer look favors or hinders the impression of a fighter, that seems both to be running away from what the whole examination process is FOR, and flat counterintuitive to me.

[wpink]

If 23 champs beat is sheepishly admitted to be the equivalent of saying: 'Well, I know they weren't all REAL Champs... and I'm not saying they were real champs or even really good fighters, just sayin...'...

... what is the point of using the '23 champs beat' phrase to begin with? An examination of the fighters themselves is the thing. Especially in this age of a champ per zip code.

Resume filler should be saved for lying to get a better pay scale or a new job. Jones doesn't need help in the fistic appreciation department through blostering up stats. His films speak loudly enough to me.

If we get into the habit of having to get to 2000 feet views to compare fighters because we feel a closer look favors or hinders the impression of a fighter, that seems both to be running away from what the whole examination process is FOR, and flat counterintuitive to me.

Where they champs or not. You all are the ones belittling them, not me. WBO...hmmm dlh first belt was WBO, I dont see anyone taking from that and saying it was irrelevant.

Seems to me many are using their disdain for Roy to attempt to eat at every little thing....