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Thread: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

  1. #31
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb
    AND YOU CAN PROVE THIS CAN YOU???
    Yes I have a time machine, I went back to 1969 shrunk Frazier to 160lbs, then traveled back to 1995, put him in he ring with Jones and caught it on video.

    I'm selling the video for 900.00US, interested in a copy?

  2. #32
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Good answer, at least you didn't really try to convince me

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    Give him time. PeteLeo.

    Ya gotta admit-- that was a great line. LOL.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Here we go again with Roy Joke JR. I have never seen a champion fight so many part time fighters. a policeman, a trash collector, a teacher. Also I've never seen a champion turn down so many big paydays to fight bum after bum. Fat, you said who has Monzon fought with the speed of Jones? Who has Jones fought with the skill and talent of King Carlos? And don't say a big fat out of shape Toney or a green Hopkins. Wake me up when Jones fights somebody worth a shit.

  5. #35
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Jones beating Hopkins was similar to Sanchez beating Nelson, only Jones was green as well. It's still a big win.

    Toney was weight drained against Roy, but he was still in good shape, just a few months earlier against Williams his stamina was fantastic, you don't lose that in 2 months.

    Monzon was slow and easy to hit, reguardless of what excuses you want to make for them, both Hopkins and Toney were just as tough, if not tougher and both had quicker hands, Toney was definitely more skilled.

    It's funny, you criticize Jones for not taking big fights, but Toney was p4p one of the best fighters in the sport at the time and favoured over Jones. Whatever excuses you want to make for Toney, it was his fault, not Jones'. Jones took the fight and dominated, period. Hopkins was also considered a good opoponent even back then and never lost another fight until over 10 years later, which were both controversial.

    Castro was also extremely tough and had a huge punch himself. Jones lost maybe 3 rounds in those 3 fights combined.

    Jones speed, movment and lighting reflexes would allow him to outbox Monzon easily from the outside if Monzon tried to press the issue he'd get nailed with Jones' powerful responses.
    Last edited by Fat Abbot; 09-28-2006 at 06:42 PM.

  6. #36
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    I haven't realy seen enough of Monzon to comment effectively. I do know he had great stamina, a fantastic chin and temperament. But he was slow from what I've saw with both hands and feet and a guy like Jones at his best was very good, fast, elusive and most importantly he could bang, this is what he needs against Carlos. He would get his respect. I think maybe Jones and Toney are bad matchups for Carlos.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    And Toney At His Best Would Have Beat Both Guys

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    Of course

    at 160, we don't exactly know what that actually is..........

    What performance at 160 one CAN point to and state that THAT Toney beats Monzon....Whoa.

    His best performance was probably the first McCallum bout, which while scored a draw was IMO a win for Toney. But THAT Toney beats Monzon? Heck that Mccallum is life and death with Benvenuti IMO and loses to either Griffith that Monzon beat and Rodriguez as well. Rahter easily at that.

    Napoles has a fair shot at that McCallum as well (Criticize the 160 version of Napoles all you want. He got his ass kicked in the manner he did becuase Monzon was ON that night.)

    Whoa? More like YIKES!

    "If" really should have multiple syllables.

    Hawk

  9. #39
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Hawk, I suppose I'm just a big fan of Toney. Against McCallum and Barkley I thought he looked superb and even against Nunn who was a hell of a tricky customer, Toney wore him down and took him out. As far as consistency goes, Monzon is the MAN. Toney blew hot and cold. But on his best night he was really exceptional. I see him being too good defensively and just as strong and just as hard a hitter as Monzon, and Toney's chin was also steel.
    Monzon was easier too hit by far than Toney and Toney on his day threw fast powerful combos from all angles thru all rounds. Did you think his handling of a relentless fast paced hard hitting Barkley was special?

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Hawk;

    "If" actually is a multiple syllable word south of the Ohio River. The further south you go the more syllables it gets.

    I don't know if you watch the Food Network, but Paula Dean turns the name "Chris" into a four syllable word.

    Monzon would have taken Jones apart piece by piece. It would be a good, competitive fight because Roy had a bunch going for him, but not enough to offset Monzon's power and the accuracy with which he delivered it.

    See y'all.

  11. #41
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    Re: Of course

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    Heck that Mccallum is life and death with Benvenuti IMO and loses to either Griffith that Monzon beat and Rodriguez as well. Rahter easily at that.

    Napoles has a fair shot at that McCallum as well (Criticize the 160 version of Napoles all you want. He got his ass kicked in the manner he did becuase Monzon was ON that night.)

    Whoa? More like YIKES!

    "If" really should have multiple syllables.

    Hawk
    I would think Nino would beat that McCallum. Life and death would apply to Mike and Nino doing LeMans together maybe.

  12. #42
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    160

    Middleweight. Toney vs. Monzon at Middleweight. One Hundred and Sixty.

    I've discussed the Toney Barkley bout (at 1-6-8) multiple times already. Iran was coming back down from 178 in his previous bout (and 174 prior to that when he fought Hearns) and had Nothing left. Similar to Toney being weigh drained for Jones. Now Toney probably beats Barkley regardless, but Iran didn't give himself the best chance coming down in weight in less than two months.

    I-f. Hey it IS two syllables.

    And Sharks, I agree. The Nino from Monzon I beats the McCallum from Toney I. And THAT Nino is life and death with Toney.

    That's kinda what I menat to say to begin with, but had too many thoughts going on at once. (Take your time Hawk. No one is rushing you.)

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 09-29-2006 at 11:27 AM.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    For a guy who was 'drained' he sure did have some serious stamina. He pushed Toney nonstop for 10 rds. Most fighters would have crumbled under the pressure he put Toney under. Toney's skills in handling Barkley were amazing. He threw tons of punches from tons of angles, took everything Iran threw and hit back with even more. Toney's footwork and inside work were also fantastic. OK, this was 168, not Middle. But if Monzon fought that guy at say 168, I see him losing by UD!!!

  14. #44
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    "He pushed Toney nonstop for 10 rds"

    Not half bad for a fight that only went 9 rounds.

    Hawk

  15. #45
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    I think that Toney would have been a stylistic nightmare for Monzon. Monzon was the type of fighter that liked to methodically pick fighters apart with a steady output of slow, but accurate and powerful punches.

    Toney was not a little guy that Monzon could wear down in a battle of attrition like Napoles or Griffith and he wasn't a one dimensional banger like Briscoe and Valdez who stubbornly just looked for that bigshot.

    Toney would be able to use his handspeed and skills to close the gap fairly easily. From there with his own accuracy, vastly superior handspeed, compact body and his slick combination of shoulder rolls followed up by counterpunching I doubt Monzon would be able to get much done at all. Wile in the trenches Toney would basically have his way with Carlos.

    Bad matchup for Carlos, Carlos beat slicker fighters by being bigger, tougher and stronger, while the fighters just as tough and just as strong, he beat by being slicker. Toney was just as strong, big and tough, but was also quite a bit more skilled a boxer and posessed all the skills inclose to carve a big slow target like Monzon up like a turkey.

  16. #46
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Monzon's punches were not slow. He had fine handspeed for the style he employed.
    Toney arguably lost two of his defenses at middleweight (Johnson and Tiberi -- the latter a blatant robbery), and I know folks who put him on the short end in both McCallum bouts. His record as champ at middleweight pales into invisibility next to Monzon's, and, really, aside from a few wins over aged/injured heavyweights, what's he done since leaving the division?
    "Lights Out" would learn some very hard truths from the elongated, rawhide tough Monzon, in my opinion, as would "Superflash" Jones. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Abbot
    He'd destroy Frazier p4p though.
    I see Abbot's point. Jones>Ruiz>Holyfield>Qawi>Leon Spinks>Ali>Frazier. Is that how the logic flows?

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    I want to hear more about the"jorneyman Ali" to be honest with everyone. Fascinating stuff from a guy that obviously has more boxing knowledge that the rest of us; tell us more, please!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    I must say the peak Toney is so underrated by most on the CBZ. I can't see why and Abbot summed up his qualities perfectly. I know James could look very average in some fights, but he could also look damn brilliant. What real advantage does Carlos have. I say James is faster, better defensively, harder single shot hitter and equal as regards strength. Monzon is superior in stamina and maybe chin. I say Toney is just too hard for Carlos to beat. He would be throwing as much leather at Monzon as receiving, but from all angles and with zip!!!

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Tommy Morrison looked awesome too when he was fighting nothing but off-duty security guards. Put him in with a live, breathing body and it was different story.

    James occasionally looked very good at 160. More often than not, he looked very average for a championship fighter. And occasionally he looked like shit. Judge the man on his typical performance, not his best night only, and you get a guy that just doesn't stack up with the elite.

  21. #51
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    TONEY hit HARDER than MONZON? What gives you that idea? Please tell me of one fight in which Toney was "damn brilliant" at middle. He was getting schooled by Nunn (who close to sucked) until getting lucky late. He lost to Johnson and Tiberi. He certainly didn't blitz a McCallum ready for the boneyard. He did mange to KO some Italian guy whose name escapes me. Monzon's fights with Benvenuti alone put anything to Toney did at 160 to shame.
    Also, in what way was Toney -- who couldn't beat little Montel Griffith in two tries -- stronger than Monzon? I never saw any evidence of such.
    Toney "underrated" now? I believe the reverse to be the case. Prior to his unexpected win over the robotic Jirov, he was considered a case of wasted potential whose one really notable win was over Barkley (no one disputed the fact that Nunn was on the way to a wide decision win before getting caught). Now, off of that result and a stoppage of an ancient, injured Holyfield suddenly Toney is the only "old school" fighter in the game and a candidate for the HOF.
    Again, give me one instance of his spectacular abilities as a middleweight champ. Personally, he doesn't even fit into my Top Ten for that or any other division. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    I don't think I've underestimated Toney's abilities in any way...he has good speed, decent punch, chin, etc....he's excellent boxer, actually one of the few that you can actually classify as that today. But he's no better "boxer" than say Emile Griffith, no tougher than a Dick Tiger or Giardello, he doesn't hit any harder than a Valdez.....

    I think it would be stretching it to get him up there with the Haglers or Monzons, honestly.

  23. #53
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by 10-8
    I see Abbot's point. Jones>Ruiz>Holyfield>Qawi>Leon Spinks>Ali>Frazier. Is that how the logic flows?
    Not quite.

    Frazier got knocked out in 2 rounds by the only huge puncher he faced, p4p the middleweight Jones' power was atleast comparable to Foremans.
    Jones was more powerful than Frazier, he was a 2 hnded fighter to Joes 1, he was infinitely faster, more skilled both offensively and especially defensively and while Joe was 1 eyed fighter, Jones had the best reflexes in the history of boxing. Hell, Roy was even the better body puncher.

    Putting Joe Frazier in a p4p matchup against Roy Jones is almost as big a mismatch as David Tua vs Ray Robinson p4p.

    Frazier is one of my favourites and a big heart combined with modest talent allowed him to decision a light hitting Ali who had no infighting skills whatsoever. It also got him a couple of nice wins over Quarry and Ellis and 2 lacklustre decisions over a poor mans Jorge Castro in Oscar Bonavena. But against a fighter with the middleweight Jones' power p4p and overall talent and skills it's ridiculous to believe that Joe would last beyond 4 rounds with Roy, let alone give him a fight.

  24. #54
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    A couple of things:

    James Toney no tougher than Dick Tiger? Nope. Sam Peter and Hasim Rahman couldn't come close to dropping James and noone has come close to knocking Janmes out. Sorry folks, but Peter and Rahman hit a hell of a lot harder than Bob Foster and he nearly knocked Tigers head out of the stadium.

    Toney got "lucky" against Nunn. Nope, again. Wtch the 3 rounds before the knockdown, they were dominated by Toney, Toney had figured him out midway through and countered the shit out of him before scoring the eventual KO. Nothing lucky about Toney dominating the last 4 rounds of that fight then scoring the KO. Nunn at the time was a top p4p fighter.

    Little Griffin? Umm Griffin was 5'7 175lbs, he was a ball of muscle and hardly little, his biceps were likely just as wide as Monzons legs. Toney should have won oth fights, especially the 2nd, which was a really bad decision and James was far from motivated at the time, while Griffin was a pretty good fighter.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Not to get too far off thread, but you must be referrring to the "light hitting journeyman Ali", as in Muhammad Ali, correct?

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    When did Toney look brilliant at 160?

    The hyperbole is astounding in these fantasy matchups.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Wait a minute here........... Sam Peter? You need to stop, really.

    No doubt a full blown heavyweight can hit harder, no question whatsoever. The problem you see is actually landing a real punch, or more realistically actually knowing how to box, which remains a mystery to Sam Peter.

    With James "the lights never out in the refrigerator because I can't keep the door shut" Toney, he gets consideration for actually being able to carry that much fat for 12 rounds against Peter. Blowing up so he can fight at heavyweight against guys that couldn't box any better than Rahman and Peter is not exactly the basis for determining how a Middleweight Toney would do against some of the game's most formiddable middleweight fighters.

    You've got to get better or no one will take you seriously, Joe.
    Last edited by thumper3852; 09-29-2006 at 06:53 PM. Reason: wording

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Abbot
    But against a fighter with the middleweight Jones' power p4p and overall talent and skills it's ridiculous to believe that Joe would last beyond 4 rounds with Roy, let alone give him a fight.
    So just that I understand this completely. Joe Frazier P4P is going to last 2 rounds less than a blown up lightweight with a broken neck and fused spinal column suffering from caffeine withdrawl (Vinnie Paz) did against Jones?
    Last edited by 10-8; 09-29-2006 at 04:58 PM.

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    While searching for that

    elusive "brilliant" performance at 160 that Sharkey asked about...

    Toney dominated the 3 rounds prior to the Knockout? What exactly was he doing in the 9th and 10th rounds that saw him Dominate?

    Toney won the 8th, becuase Nunn didn't do anything other than lean agianst the ropes. Toney's round becuase Nunn did nothing.

    9th round? Toney was the harder puncher, but he rarely landed. Coming forward does not win you a round if you only land a few punches and the other guy is jabbing you.

    10th Round? Please, someone break this round down for me to explain how Toney won, much less dominated this round. What exactly did he do?

    Talk about reaching...

    Hawk

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Once again Walsh hijacks another thread with Toney worship.Shame on you Walsh.

    Personally, i have a hard time figuring out who was the biggest hack(in terms of personality and application...not talent) of the middleweight champions that many seem to hold in high regard(that rules nUnn and Eubank out).

    It usually comes down to Toney or Benvenuti.

    Toney...the middleweight Benny Lynch.

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