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Thread: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

  1. #61
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Abbot
    Not quite.

    Frazier got knocked out in 2 rounds by the only huge puncher he faced, p4p the middleweight Jones' power was atleast comparable to Foremans.
    Jones was more powerful than Frazier, he was a 2 hnded fighter to Joes 1, he was infinitely faster, more skilled both offensively and especially defensively and while Joe was 1 eyed fighter, Jones had the best reflexes in the history of boxing. Hell, Roy was even the better body puncher.

    Putting Joe Frazier in a p4p matchup against Roy Jones is almost as big a mismatch as David Tua vs Ray Robinson p4p.

    Frazier is one of my favourites and a big heart combined with modest talent allowed him to decision a light hitting Ali who had no infighting skills whatsoever. It also got him a couple of nice wins over Quarry and Ellis and 2 lacklustre decisions over a poor mans Jorge Castro in Oscar Bonavena. But against a fighter with the middleweight Jones' power p4p and overall talent and skills it's ridiculous to believe that Joe would last beyond 4 rounds with Roy, let alone give him a fight.
    Jones was a better body puncher than Frazier? Are you serious?

  2. #62
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    How many top fighters did Frazier KO with body punches?

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Toney's "dominance" of Nunn: at the time of the stoppage, the official scores were 97-93, 98-92, and 99-91.
    Oh, uh, they all favored Nunn. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    Toney's "dominance" of Nunn: at the time of the stoppage, the official scores were 97-93, 98-92, and 99-91.
    Oh, uh, they all favored Nunn. PeteLeo.
    While I am defiantly not suggesting that James Toney was winning, official scores can often be misleading or completely incorrect.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    What do you suggest we use as a yardstick, then? I have this bout on tape, and believe me, Toney was way behind and not looking particularly good. But that's just my opinion. Is it any better/more reliable than the judges'?
    Sure, officials can get it wrong, sometimes wildly so, but when the three trained observers are in so close agreement after a significant portion of the bout is over, one has to wonder if one's own perception isn't the "wild" one.
    Doesn't one? (Is that enough "ones" for one -- uh, a single post?) PeteLeo.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    James Toney was defiantly losing. It was not my intention to contradict that fact. I was criticizing the judges and their ability to SEE the fight or any fight more than anything else.
    Last edited by lu047w; 01-08-2007 at 03:05 AM.

  7. #67
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    Toney's "dominance" of Nunn: at the time of the stoppage, the official scores were 97-93, 98-92, and 99-91.
    Oh, uh, they all favored Nunn. PeteLeo.
    So you also agree with the judges that Toney beat Tiberi?

    I sauid that Toney won the last 4 rounds, one of the judges obviously agreed with that, unless he had Nunn winning round he got kod in.
    Last edited by Fat Abbot; 09-30-2006 at 12:40 AM.

  8. #68
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by thumper3852
    Wait a minute here........... Sam Peter? You need to stop, really.

    No doubt a full blown heavyweight can hit harder, no question whatsoever. The problem you see is actually landing a real punch, or more realistically actually knowing how to box, which remains a mystery to Sam Peter.

    With James "the lights never out in the refrigerator because I can't keep the door shut" Toney, he gets consideration for actually being able to carry that much fat for 12 rounds against Peter. Blowing up so he can fight at heavyweight against guys that couldn't box any better than Rahman and Peter is not exactly the basis for determining how a Middleweight Toney would do against some of the game's most formiddable middleweight fighters.

    You've got to get better or no one will take you seriously, Joe.
    If narrowminded posters like you aren't taking me seriously, then I know I'm doing something right.

    Look, I never said anything about Sam Peters boxing skills, nor did I say anything about Rahmans.

    I was responding to a comment about Tiger being tougher than Toney. Clerly that isn't the case, as Toney consistently took bombs from hw's and never weent down while the 175lb Bob Foster nearly knocked Tgers head out of the stadium.

    No other middleweight champion has shown as good a chin as James, obviously if Tiger cn't take a huge punching lh's punch, he'd have have less success in taking a huge punching 50-70lbs bigger mans punch.

    James' talent and skills are reason enough for him beating many of the great middles, Rahmabn or Peter have nothing to do with that, but they do further Toneys claim as one of the toughest fighters p4p in the history of boxing.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    [QUOTE=Fat Abbot].
    No other middleweight champion has shown as good a chin as James, obviously if Tiger cn't take a huge punching lh's punch, he'd have have less success in taking a huge punching 50-70lbs bigger mans punch.
    QUOTE]

    You obviously didn't see Reggie Johnson -- not exactly an atomic puncher -- drop Toney like a sack of shit in their bout. Jones whacked him around pretty good, too. Peter had him doing the first steps of the Judah Dance on a couple of occasions, but Sam is so danged crude that he can barely put two punches together in the same round. I think Harry Greb and Gene Fullmer might have a few things to say about your rating of toughest middleweight chins. You have heard of them, I take it?

    Also, might remedial mathematic classes be a part of your future? Since the closest score in the Toney-Nunn match was 97-93, could you please tell me which judge "agreed" with you that James "won" the last four rounds?

    One thing about it, Albie, you boost the laughter quotient right up there every time you post. Keep up the good work. PeteLeo.

  10. #70
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    [QUOTE=PeteLeo]
    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Abbot
    .
    No other middleweight champion has shown as good a chin as James, obviously if Tiger cn't take a huge punching lh's punch, he'd have have less success in taking a huge punching 50-70lbs bigger mans punch.
    QUOTE]

    You obviously didn't see Reggie Johnson -- not exactly an atomic puncher -- drop Toney like a sack of shit in their bout. Jones whacked him around pretty good, too. Peter had him doing the first steps of the Judah Dance on a couple of occasions, but Sam is so danged crude that he can barely put two punches together in the same round. I think Harry Greb and Gene Fullmer might have a few things to say about your rating of toughest middleweight chins. You have heard of them, I take it?

    Also, might remedial mathematic classes be a part of your future? Since the closest score in the Toney-Nunn match was 97-93, could you please tell me which judge "agreed" with you that James "won" the last four rounds?

    One thing about it, Albie, you boost the laughter quotient right up there every time you post. Keep up the good work. PeteLeo.
    LOL this is too easy.

    So now since Johnson dropped Toney and because Ropy dropped him in the middle of Toney clowning Jones with his hands down he has no chin?

    This is fun, Roberto Duran got dropped a couple of times by Dejesus, perhaps that completely nullifies the toughnessd he showed by taking Hagler and Barkleys best? Perhaps Ali had a poor chin? afterall he was hurt far worse by 190lb journeyman Henry Cooper than Toney ever was. George Chuvalo got dropped by bonavena, maybe his chin sucked too?

    Suffering 2 flash knockdowns in a 70+ fight, 18 year, career that has spanned from 160lbs to 250lbs sounds pretty good to me.

    Unless Greb took bombs from 240-260lb huge punching hw top contender/champions I don't see what case he has. Fullmer couldn't take a welterweights best punch, so again I don't see how you can put him in the csame class as Toney.

    Obviously you lack the understanding of the magnitude of a mw champion moving up and taking bombs from huge hw's, until now it's never been done. But I guess that's all meaningless since James suffered a flash kd from Reggie Johnson. LOL

    As for my math, it's quit fine. It was an 11 round fight, one of the judges had James inning 3 before the KO, with the KO James won the last 3 rounds, unless you had Nunn winning thje 11th where he got knocked out?

    Thanks for the laughs Peteleo, debunking your tripe can be amusing.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    [QUOTE=Fat Abbot]
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    As for my math, it's quit fine. It was an 11 round fight, one of the judges had James inning 3 before the KO, with the KO James won the last 3 rounds, unless you had Nunn winning thje 11th where he got knocked out?
    Thanks for the laughs Peteleo, debunking your tripe can be amusing.

    Um, don't let this get out, Albie, but the scores were 97-93, 98-92, and 99-91, and the eleventh round WAS NOT SCORED. You hambone. You're making a complete fool of yourself. As far as I know the round in which a KO or a TKO takes place is never scored. One of the ABC's (I think it's the WBC) does mandate scoring a partial round in the case of a technical decision, but what in the frigging hell is the point of scoring a round that ends before the bell in a legit stoppage? Maybe somewhere in that amazing little basement world where you sweat over your parents' PC, the rules of logic are a bit different, but out here in real life, your butt is showing.
    Have you looked at Greb's record, even once? Harry fought a hell of a lot of big, tough heavies, and not a one of them stopped him. Fulmer couldn't take a "welterweight's" punch? If you're referring to Robinson's classic KO shot (one can only surmise what goes on in that cute little mind of yours, naturally), that is generally considered to be the classic left hook of modern boxing (it's even called such in encyclopedias), and it was the only time in four bouts that Sugar Ray -- one of the greatest punchers below heavyweight and a full-fledged middle for close to a decade -- was able to so hurt Gene. Now, if you want to go ahead and fall all the way down your sword, you go right ahead and jack off to what suits you, call Robinson a weak-hitting "welterweight" all you want to. You're just cementing your poisition as Top KnowNothing on this site with each mumbled embarrassment.
    If you really think that Johnson's whacking of your bunk-buddy was a "flash knockdown," you've left all pretense to even moderate boxing acumen in the dust long ago.
    But, please, don't let me spoil your fun with all of these messy facts and stuff. I haven't been so entertained by a poster since the days of those monkeys on typewriters (the ones who were supposed to accidentally reproduce all of Shakespeare's works, you'll recall).
    Keep 'em coming, bucky. PeteLeo.
    Last edited by PeteLeo; 10-01-2006 at 01:05 AM.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by starlingstomp
    Once again Walsh hijacks another thread with Toney worship.Shame on you Walsh.

    Personally, i have a hard time figuring out who was the biggest hack(in terms of personality and application...not talent) of the middleweight champions that many seem to hold in high regard(that rules nUnn and Eubank out).

    It usually comes down to Toney or Benvenuti.

    Toney...the middleweight Benny Lynch.
    I didn't bring Toney's name into it. I did however claim he would beat Monzon and Jones on his best night. Too fast and difficult for Monzon and he would KO Jones late. And this crap about Nunn being way ahead and boxing the ears off James, big deal. Toney KO'd the guy, took him out. So it's James who should be getting the credit for the late KO. I give Toney serious credit for having the guts to get in the ring with naturally much bigger men and still pose them problems. His chin is pure steel, possibly even better than Monzon's as Carlos never tok a heavyweights shots did he?

    I do also note that James supposedly tested for Steroids, which brings him way down in my estimation

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Relax Walsh.I was drunk when i typed out that totally incoherent post and just winding you up.

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    Mooch sounded sober as a judge to me!

    I have ZERO issue with giving credit to Toney for KOing Nunn. But I would hardly characterize it as a Strong, impressive performance.

    THose trying to build a case of Toney at 160 are desperate to try and find impressive performances at this weight and want to point to the Nunn bout.

    Two things: Toney was indeed well behind in that bout and IMO won 1 or 2 rounds at most prior to the ko in the 11th. And secondly, it WAS Micheal Nunn. For as much credit he got in beating Tate and Kalambay, he p*ssed it all away in his wholly unimpressive showings against Barkley and Starling.

    (No he gained nothing by stopping Donald Curry. Curry was toast and he wasn't a middleweight. Those who saw Curry agianst Nunn, remember him embarrassing himself agianst Rene Jacquot. The Donald Curry of the Mcrory, Jones and Starling bouts was two divisions and several faded memories away from what Nunn beat.)

    Saying that Toney's performance agianst Nunn was impressive, simply becuase he scored a late round's ko, would be akin to saying Mike Weaver's most impressive performance was agianst John Tate or Lamotta was impressive in the second Dauthille bout. (To a lesser extent, using MY GUY, look at Larry Holmes vs. Weaver. Great win and KO for Larry, who WAS winning the bout prior to the KO in the 12th. But Holmes was Hardly impressive that night. Excellent win does not always equate to excellent peroformance. The final result doesn't tell the entire story.)

    Credit these guys for scoring the KO, but impressive performances? I think the body of work during the bout needs to be held accountable, NOT simply the final result. I mean we ARE using these performances as the building blocks as to why so and so was IMPRESSIVE at Middleweight.

    Toney DID ko Nunn impressively. He did Not look impressive getting to that point. And that is the point that is trying to be made here.

    Hawk

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Jones vs. Monzon: I'm going to have to agree with the Abbot on this one, at least partially.

    I think this fight would be a real toss-up. Certainly Monzon is one of the greatest ever, whether we're limiting the pool to middles or including everybody who ever stepped into the ring in a p4p discussion. He had skill (offensive and defensive), he had power, he had a strong chin, and he knew what the hell he was doing in the ring.

    However, Jones had that great speed (hand and foot speed), skill, and better than average power at middle. Not sure just how good a tactician he was; he seemed to rely on speed more than strategy.

    But imho, it comes down to this; could Monzon have caught Jones often enough and hit him to the body enough to slow him down? Failing "often enough," could have taken Roy out with one shot in the chances he would have? Or at least hurt him badly enough with one shot or a combination, and then finish him in a given round?

    Frankly, although Monzon had good power, I don't think he had a wrecking ball that would take out Jones with one shot. And I don't think he could have caught Roy often enough to wear him down. Hey, it's not like Jones lacked stamina. As for hurting Jones with a combination and then finishing him, that's where I see a 50/50 possibility. Could Jones keep going when he was hurt?

    Again, if Jones mixed it up with Monzon, I think it would be a very iffy thing. Maybe he would land some fast shots and knock Monzon down. Or it might be the other way around. The safest bet for Jones would be to fight a classic boxer vs. slugger fight and stay the hell away from Carlos. If he could keep the fight at long range, keep moving, and restrict how often they really exchanged, I think he had the speed and stamina to win a decision in what might have been a boring fight. I'm going to take Jones in this one, 7-5-3.

    Jones vs. Frazier:

    In a p4p match up of Jones vs. Joe Frazier, on the other hand, Joe DID have the power to take out an opponent with one shot. (Yes, I know Smokin' Joe preferred pounding people for a while, but he could really lay on a ton of hurt with one punch.) Jones would win a majority of rounds but somewhere along the line he would have to withstand a moments in which Frazier clocked him. At that point it would come down to a test of manhood; if Jones could fight back when hurt, he'd win the match. If not, he wouldn't.

    Frazier tested the jaws and ribs and hearts of the men he faced. I think Jones had the chin to survive strong punches, perhaps even from a light-heavy size version of Frazier in this p4p match-up. His chin was sound; but his heart? Maybe. Maybe not. When in his prime was he so tested?

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by starlingstomp
    Relax Walsh.I was drunk when i typed out that totally incoherent post and just winding you up.
    Ah drink, always the excuse when one speaks their mind. I think the only time one can use drink as an excuse for anything is when one ends up in bed with an absolute STINKER!!!!!!. I'll let you away just this one time

  17. #77
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Abbot
    Even if you take Jones power completely out of the equation Monzon would still have fits with the disparity in speed, skills and reflexes between the 2. Add Jones power into a mix and he'd likely get discouraged real fast after eating dozens of counters early on while missing wildly with everything he threw. .
    Nobody needs to take squat out of the equation. Monzon was a tall jabber who could brawl when needed on his way to grinding down opponents. He handled superior boxers and had an iron chin and will.

    Roy was inexperienced at middleweight, though he had prodigious talent at the weight. Beating an inexperienced Hopkins in no way prepares him for the experience of Monzon. Could Roy last out 15 rounds? He might win a flashy 10 rounder, but his chin and stamina will be falling out after that.

    What YOU really mean is Roy as an experienced super middle fighting at a LH weight would beat Monzon. Maybe, Monzon never moved up, nor did Hagler, nor did Pryor, nor many greats, so really you don't have much to go on other than to make some kind of invalid match that doesn't hold up historically.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Jones has shown little to suggest that he could take Monzon. Monzon ahd the jab, the strength and the accuracy to overcome Jones's speed advantage and beat him down. Jones migtt skate to 1 win in 5 but that's about it.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    To me the key element of this fight would be Roy's terrible habit of riding the ropes. Once he was on the ropes Monzon would work him hard. Sooner or later Roy's mandible would betray him.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    And Roy just loves those 2nd tier guys that fall for feints after he lands a big shot. Then Jones stays in that comfy flashy zone in the middle of the ring until he lands the finisher. But that's against the 2nd tier guys and we seldom saw that result against the top notch guys. And Monzon was not a guy who fell for feints and was the rare breed that fires back a millisecond after getting hit and never hesitates in the ring.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    1) Jones would have been an athletic challemge for Carlos but here's a key point...Jones was not a middleweight very long. He flat outgrew the division and barely made weight for two title fights he had there. So you're comparing a 20 fight novice with the best Monzon. That's a mismatch...like a bigger Chavez-Taylor with the extra rounds.

    2) I don't care what the Toney-Nunn score was. Here's something missing. Toney was then a 3rd year near novice whose best opponents were Sanderline Williams and Merqui Sosa. he was learning on the job and KO'd a guy rated in the top three P4P. It was Nunn, not Toney, who ran from the thought of a rematch.

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    At the time

    Toney ko'd Nunn, there were MANY who felt, myslef included, that Micheal was not among those high ranking Pound for Pounders any more and had lost the initial respect he had gained from wins over Tate and Kalambay.

    His poor and dissapointing showings agianst Barkley and Starling had diminished the stature that he once had.

    Just an example of the view that was had of Nunn in the December issue Of KO magazine, Nunn finished 8th overall in the Best Fighter poll. And THAT ranking was essentially on the strength of 3 pollees in which he was listed 3rd, 4th and 4th respectively. Nunn only appeared on one other pollees list and had a 10th spot. 6 of the 10 pollees didn't have him in their top 10 at all, including KO magazine itself.

    Ironically, RIng magazine which had the same staff as KO magazine at the time, had Nunn ranked #3 in their yearend rankings (Don't ask me how that happens). Bert Sugar's Boxing Illustrated had Nunn 5th. So there were some lingering view of respect there. But CERTAINLY, he was not viewed in the same light as he was in late 88, early 1989. And obviously there was nothing unanimous in the view of where Nunn was among his pound for pound peers.

    Now CERTAINLY this is nothing scientific here. But it does give one a feel as to what was thought of Nunn AT THE TIME. And CERTINLY, Nunn was thought of as Refuse AFTER the bout.

    Toney was a third year pro and based on some shakey showings agianst Sanderline Williams and Merquie Sosa, no, he didn't have a whole lot of respect going in to the bout. Thus the reason it was considered an upset at the time. Nunn may not have had the boxing's cognescnti's opinion of him thatit once did, but he certainly was viewed as a better fighter than the relatively unknown, unproven Toney.

    As far as Nunn wanting nothing to do with a rematch. Not true. He wanted nothing to do with making 160 anymore and moved up. Given his frame, this isn't wholly surprising. Ironically Toney was probably having more issues making weight (his own fault) than Nunn ever did. And had they ever fought at 168, given Nunn's arrow was pointing down and Toney's pointing up, I have no reason to beleive Toney would not have imporved on his initial showing.

    Toney turned out to be a superior fighter to Nunn. I doubt anyone is arguing that. But to state that Toney shined in his win over Nunn? Well in the 11th round he sure as hell did. I'll gve you that.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 10-05-2006 at 07:51 AM.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    You know what one major problem is when it comes to fantasy match-ups, especially when considering those who fought in more than one weight class?
    You think of a boxer's whole career, instead of what he did at a particular weight.

    The fact that Jones' was a middle early in his career, and thus was an inexperienced fighter during his bouts at middle, is something that I had let slip my mind. I was looking at his whole career.

    So my previous analysis and conclusion, that Jones' speed would have decided the issue, was wrong. No inexperienced fighter would have stood a chance against Monzon during his championship reign.

    However, I think it would have been an interesting bout if both men had fought the same number of fights before stepping into the ring. With equal experience, would Jones's speed see him through, say, a ten round bout?

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    No.

    You'd have to double the amount of bouts Jones fought. More bouts and then start putting names like mcclellan/nunn/benn/eubank/collins/littles/michalczewski/etc. in that opponent list and the guy doesn't go 50-0. And maybe you have some more ko defeats in that equation to add to the tarver and Johnson losses. Monzon was never stopped and defeated every opponent he ever faced.



    Be that as it may, the main thing I don't like about jones in the matchup is his hand placement and defense against a guy like Monzon. You have to bring your hands back to their proper position > punching. you cannot throw 1 and pose and you cannot load up on a right hand lead and take 1 or 2 steps when you throw it. Then stop and then set your defense. And, you cannot last against a carlos monzon with your left hand dangling at your thigh. Another factor would've been the clinching time whenever they did get inside or when ever monzon would reach out and grab him and he was an Ali/Duran caliber master at it; monzon loved kidney punches/left forearm to the throat/hard rabbit punch. He was not a nice guy in there and always did 1 of those things. I think the kidney and back of the head blows take something out of Jones physically. Mentally, he sure isn't going to like that constant roughing up and the opponent that gets stronger as the bout goes on.

  25. #85
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    [QUOTE=PeteLeo]
    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Abbot


    Um, don't let this get out, Albie, but the scores were 97-93, 98-92, and 99-91, and the eleventh round WAS NOT SCORED. You hambone. You're making a complete fool of yourself. As far as I know the round in which a KO or a TKO takes place is never scored. One of the ABC's (I think it's the WBC) does mandate scoring a partial round in the case of a technical decision, but what in the frigging hell is the point of scoring a round that ends before the bell in a legit stoppage? Maybe somewhere in that amazing little basement world where you sweat over your parents' PC, the rules of logic are a bit different, but out here in real life, your butt is showing.
    Have you looked at Greb's record, even once? Harry fought a hell of a lot of big, tough heavies, and not a one of them stopped him. Fulmer couldn't take a "welterweight's" punch? If you're referring to Robinson's classic KO shot (one can only surmise what goes on in that cute little mind of yours, naturally), that is generally considered to be the classic left hook of modern boxing (it's even called such in encyclopedias), and it was the only time in four bouts that Sugar Ray -- one of the greatest punchers below heavyweight and a full-fledged middle for close to a decade -- was able to so hurt Gene. Now, if you want to go ahead and fall all the way down your sword, you go right ahead and jack off to what suits you, call Robinson a weak-hitting "welterweight" all you want to. You're just cementing your poisition as Top KnowNothing on this site with each mumbled embarrassment.
    If you really think that Johnson's whacking of your bunk-buddy was a "flash knockdown," you've left all pretense to even moderate boxing acumen in the dust long ago.
    But, please, don't let me spoil your fun with all of these messy facts and stuff. I haven't been so entertained by a poster since the days of those monkeys on typewriters (the ones who were supposed to accidentally reproduce all of Shakespeare's works, you'll recall).
    Keep 'em coming, bucky. PeteLeo.
    .....

    Sorry I'm not reading that, short and concise please.

    The fact of the matter is reguardless of whether the round was scored or not, it occured and thus there was a winner and a loser. You're right, there is a lack of necessitity to score a round that Toney won by ko.

    If you ask the judges or anyone who won the 11th round, they'll tell you Toney, because he knocked Nunn out in that round. Infact you don't even need to ask, as it's obvious. If you wish to continue to believe that Toney lost a round he won by KO, so be it.

    I also don't see the need for your flames and insults Peteleo, I'm being amiable to you, I expect the same treatment.

  26. #86
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto Aqui
    Nobody needs to take squat out of the equation. Monzon was a tall jabber who could brawl when needed on his way to grinding down opponents. He handled superior boxers and had an iron chin and will.
    Sounds like Bernard Hopkins to a T, altrhough only Jones was ever a superior boxer to him.

    "Roy was inexperienced at middleweight, though he had prodigious talent at the weight. Beating an inexperienced Hopkins in no way prepares him for the experience of Monzon. Could Roy last out 15 rounds? He might win a flashy 10 rounder, but his chin and stamina will be falling out after that."

    Hopkins even when Roy beat him was just as strong as Monzon, quite a bit faster, just as tough, the same size and just as good inside.

    Maybe Hopkins doesn't fully prepare Jones for Monzon, but he does prepare Jones more than anyone Monzon ever fought prepares him for jones. A couple of welterweights and a couple of one dimensional punchers just don't compare.

    Jones never fought 15 rounders, so asking if he could last 15 rounds is an unfair question, much like asking whether or not Monzon could last 20 rounds in a past era.

    This matchup would be a 12 round fight, but if it were 15 with Jones training accordingly I doubt he'd have a problem considering he never had a problem going 12.

    "What YOU really mean is Roy as an experienced super middle fighting at a LH weight would beat Monzon. Maybe, Monzon never moved up, nor did Hagler, nor did Pryor, nor many greats, so really you don't have much to go on other than to make some kind of invalid match that doesn't hold up historically."

    Nope. I'm talking about the jones of the tate fight, the 168lb jones would win easier imo.

  27. #87
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    [QUOTE=Fat Abbot
    If you ask the judges or anyone who won the 11th round, they'll tell you Toney, because he knocked Nunn out in that round. Infact you don't even need to ask, as it's obvious. If you wish to continue to believe that Toney lost a round he won by KO, so be it.
    [/QUOTE]


    Aw, did I hurt 'um's fweelings?
    If you have the time, why not tell us when I ever intimated that Toney "lost a round he won by KO"? Would you do that for me, please?
    No one won the eleventh round of that bout because it wasn't scored and all of your obfuscation won't change that fact one whit. I hear your death rattle on this topic, Albie, and it ain't pretty.
    By the way, only one of the judges even gave Toney three rounds, so your blind certainty that James "won the last four rounds" is more than a little suspect.
    Where you been, Fatboy? It's been awfully . . . rational around here for the past week or so. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Hopkins was a strong as Monzon? Okay, prove it. Were you ever punched by both men, did you interview guys who sparred with both? Hopkins was never more than a decent puncher whereas Monzon was as strong as a bull. You can just watch the film of the guys and get the notion that Monzon punched harder and had more natural physical strength. Faster, okay I give you that. Just as tough? Not so sure.

    And explain to me why this is a 12 round fight, when historically the 15 round fight has been used for a much longer span of time. Actually don't answer. I know why, because it would favor Roy Jones. Just like how you magically attributed Bonecrusher Smith Ernie Shavers like power and an abundance of heart.

    I mean, I can say that Jack Dempsey can shoot laser beams out of his eyes and breath a highly concentrated chlorine gas that instantly kills anyone who inhales it but does that change anything?

  29. #89
    Fat Abbot
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Achilles
    Hopkins was a strong as Monzon? Okay, prove it. Were you ever punched by both men, did you interview guys who sparred with both? Hopkins was never more than a decent puncher whereas Monzon was as strong as a bull. You can just watch the film of the guys and get the notion that Monzon punched harder and had more natural physical strength. Faster, okay I give you that. Just as tough? Not so sure.

    And explain to me why this is a 12 round fight, when historically the 15 round fight has been used for a much longer span of time. Actually don't answer. I know why, because it would favor Roy Jones. Just like how you magically attributed Bonecrusher Smith Ernie Shavers like power and an abundance of heart.

    I mean, I can say that Jack Dempsey can shoot laser beams out of his eyes and breath a highly concentrated chlorine gas that instantly kills anyone who inhales it but does that change anything?
    Prove me wrong.

    I never made any comparison between Hopkins and monzons punching power, strength is a different attribute, yet for some reason you're binding the 2 together as one?

    Noone has outmusdcled Hopkins in the ring, even LH champions Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson got bullied. Since Monzon never fought bigger men, the edge in "proving" his strength goes to Hopkins.

    Jones wopuld win easily reguardless of the fight being 15 rounds or 12, but it's 12 rounds because that's how many rounds fights have been fought for the past 20 years and 15 rounds is a long outdated custom.

    Smith KO'd Witherspoon in the 1st round brutally, Smith had the power to KO tough men, Shavers couldn't, so you're right I was wrong, Smith didn't have Shavers like power. Noone who saw Smiths fight with Witherspoon the 1st time or Bruno would question his heart...Well noone that doesn't have an agenda.

  30. #90
    Fat Abbot
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    Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    Aw, did I hurt 'um's fweelings?
    If you have the time, why not tell us when I ever intimated that Toney "lost a round he won by KO"? Would you do that for me, please?
    No one won the eleventh round of that bout because it wasn't scored and all of your obfuscation won't change that fact one whit. I hear your death rattle on this topic, Albie, and it ain't pretty.
    By the way, only one of the judges even gave Toney three rounds, so your blind certainty that James "won the last four rounds" is more than a little suspect.
    Where you been, Fatboy? It's been awfully . . . rational around here for the past week or so. PeteLeo.
    So you think that Toney didn't win a round that he won by ko?

    I think I now see where you're coming from.
    Last edited by Fat Abbot; 10-09-2006 at 10:09 PM.

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