Roy Jones Jr vs Carlos Monzon

[mrbig1]

Tarver wasn't fast but he knocked out Jones. As I've said many times before. Speed and power have little to do with boxing. Ring smarts,heart, and chin are major factors in this sport. Sugar ray Leonard was much faster than Hearns. It was Hearns chin that let him down. A speed fighter is very good against a wide punching bomber. That was not Monzon. Jones would use his speed to run from Monzon not take the fight to him. Monzon was built like Tarver and ten times smarter. As Ali slowed down he was still great because of his ring smarts. I think Monzon was as smart as they come. People sometimes are fooled by flash. Jones looked great against Ruiz. I say so what? So did Toney. Because of the flash and hype people were starting thread saying Jones vs A young Ali. Jones could beat Ali,Louis,Foreman? Flash draws the fans but does little against a world class fighter.

[mrbig1]

Tarver wasn't fast but he knocked out Jones. As I've said many times before. Speed and power have little to do with boxing. Ring smarts,heart, and chin are major factors in this sport. Sugar ray Leonard was much faster than Hearns. It was Hearns chin that let him down. A speed fighter is very good against a wide punching bomber. That was not Monzon. Jones would use his speed to run from Monzon not take the fight to him. Monzon was built like Tarver and ten times smarter. As Ali slowed down he was still great because of his ring smarts. I think Monzon was as smart as they come. People sometimes are fooled by flash. Jones looked great against Ruiz. I say so what? So did Toney. Because of the flash and hype people were starting thread saying Jones vs A young Ali. Jones could beat Ali,Louis,Foreman? Flash draws the fans but does little against a world class fighter.

[hawk5ins]

Asking if you base this statement "he (Carlos) is not all that aggressive and not all that heavy a hitter!" based on your knowledge of Monzon as it was two years ago (whihc you stated was limited) or if you have indeed done research in whihc you feel more qualified to comment on Monzon And his power.

Again, I think the statement that Monzon was not all that heavy a hitter (actually you used neither "didn't" or "couldn't", but does it matter? The implication was that he "Not a Hard hitter") is a bit curious.

Hawk

[walshb]

Tarver wasn't fast but he knocked out Jones. As I've said many times before. Speed and power have little to do with boxing. Ring smarts,heart, and chin are major factors in this sport. Sugar ray Leonard was much faster than Hearns. It was Hearns chin that let him down. A speed fighter is very good against a wide punching bomber. That was not Monzon. Jones would use his speed to run from Monzon not take the fight to him. Monzon was built like Tarver and ten times smarter. As Ali slowed down he was still great because of his ring smarts. I think Monzon was as smart as they come. People sometimes are fooled by flash. Jones looked great against Ruiz. I say so what? So did Toney. Because of the flash and hype people were starting thread saying Jones vs A young Ali. Jones could beat Ali,Louis,Foreman? Flash draws the fans but does little against a world class fighter.

Look, if speed and power have little to do with boxing then Joe Louis wouldn't have made such a great fighter. I have to disagree with that statement.

Also, Tarver did KO Jones, but I can't see Carlos at 160 lbs doing the same trick to a peak Jones. Roy was well past it and fighting at a higher weight. Now, I am not saying that Roy's chin was any better at 160 lbs. It probably wasn't, but his reflexes and timing and speed and footwork were better, and this is so important should a fighter possess a weak chin.

[walshb]

Asking if you base this statement "he (Carlos) is not all that aggressive and not all that heavy a hitter!" based on your knowledge of Monzon as it was two years ago (whihc you stated was limited) or if you have indeed done research in whihc you feel more qualified to comment on Monzon And his power.

Again, I think the statement that Monzon was not all that heavy a hitter (actually you used neither "didn't" or "couldn't", but does it matter? The implication was that he "Not a Hard hitter") is a bit curious.

Hawk

Man, you have lost me now.

Obviously, I am basing the statement I wrote TODAY on fresh evidence and research and viewing from the past two years, up to and including today.

Apologies, I didn't think it necessary to share this with the board.

So, for the record, and to be ever so precise; 'anything I wrote today and anything I'll write later, is knowledge I have gained up to and including today from my research into Carlos and viewing of Carlos.'

I hope that clears it up a little!

Oh, and I still think Carlos wasn't all that heavy a hitter!

[hawk5ins]

"Obviously, I am basing the statement I wrote TODAY on fresh evidence and research and viewing from the past two years, up to and including today."

Answers my question.

I obviously have no idea what personal research you may or may not have done on Carlos Monzon between 2006 and today.

So your comment about "Monzon was not all that heavy a hitter" is based on informed research and not based on your being unfamiliar with Monzon. Like you were in 2006.

Interesting.

Hawk

[walshb]

"Obviously, I am basing the statement I wrote TODAY on fresh evidence and research and viewing from the past two years, up to and including today."

Answers my question.

I obviously have no idea what personal research you may or may not have done on Carlos Monzon between 2006 and today.

So your comment about "Monzon was not all that heavy a hitter" is based on informed research and not based on your being unfamiliar with Monzon. Like you were in 2006.

Interesting.

Hawk

Talk about having to be spoon fed!

[hawk5ins]

Or you simply could have answered the question when I originally asked it.

Agian I ask, how am I supposed to know if you have done any amount of reasearch or watched fights on Monzon, since 2006?

In 2006, You stated you were unfamiliar with him. I wanted to know if that still was the case.

In 2006, my knowledge of and familiarity of Henry Hank was what I would say was pretty limited. Any comments I made on him two years ago, probably needed to be taken with a SERIOUS grain of Salt.

Now with that admission Walsh, do you know if I have or have not done any additional or significant research on him with whihc any comments I make about him today, are based on a more INFORMED opinion?

Unless I were to tell you what research I may or may not have done, you would have no idea.

It's the same for me knowing what if any additional research you may or may not have done on Monzon over the same time frame.

Heck, you can substitute ANY poster here and roughly any fighter you care to name. NONE of us know who does what in their spare time.

It's nothing more than exactly that.

Hawk

[walshb]

Or you simply could have answered the question when I originally asked it.

Agian I ask, how am I supposed to know if you have done any amount of reasearch or watched fights on Monzon, since 2006?

In 2006, You stated you were unfamiliar with him. I wanted to know if that still was the case.

In 2006, my knowledge of and familiarity of Henry Hank was what I would say was pretty limited. Any comments I made on him two years ago, probably needed to be taken with a SERIOUS grain of Salt.

Now with that admission Walsh, do you know if I have or have not done any additional or significant research on him with whihc any comments I make about him today, are based on a more INFORMED opinion?

Unless I were to tell you what research I may or may not have done, you would have no idea.

It's the same for me knowing what if any additional research you may or may not have done on Monzon over the same time frame.

Heck, you can substitute ANY poster here and roughly any fighter you care to name. NONE of us know who does what in their spare time.

It's nothing more than exactly that.

Hawk

Ok, from now on, please assume that I have done the necessary research and viewing.

Actually, don't.

I'll inform you!

And for most certainly the last time, I still think that Carlos is not all that heavy a hitter

[hawk5ins]

Thanks for responding.

And agian, I find your opinion on Monzon's power.......interesting.

Hawk

[walshb]

Thanks for responding.

And agian, I find your opinion on Monzon's power.......interesting.

Hawk

At least we have a little compromise. I assume you rate Carlos' power higher than I do.

Nothing wrong there. That's your opinion!

[hawk5ins]

It's an informed opinion.

BTW, I have done quite a bit of research on Henry Hank since 2006.

Now you know.

Hawk

[mrbig1]

Look, if speed and power have little to do with boxing then Joe Louis wouldn't have made such a great fighter. I have to disagree with that statement.

Also, Tarver did KO Jones, but I can't see Carlos at 160 lbs doing the same trick to a peak Jones. Roy was well past it and fighting at a higher weight. Now, I am not saying that Roy's chin was any better at 160 lbs. It probably wasn't, but his reflexes and timing and speed and footwork were better, and this is so important should a fighter possess a weak chin.

Max Schmeling KOed Louis not with power or speed but with rings smarts. Marciano fought many fighters faster and yes more powerful than him. It was his chin and heart that made him a great champion. My point is we don't know if Jones can win in a hard fight. We know Monzon can.

[Michael Frank]

Walshb, tagging onto your Toney over Monzon call in the other thread, I think I'd respectfully disagree and go with Monzon by decision. It's all been said already, it appears.

My take? James was very good, but a low punch output and soft training against a guy who comes to win no matter what, isn't a good recipe to beat Monzon. I do agree that Carlos often had a slow activity level himself, but I have no doubt he would accelerate it as needed, and could capably do so, if pressed. With Toney, there's always the problem of undertraining.

And, much as I think James had all the smarts and skills one could want, except for the out-of-nowhere-while-losing-big-on-the-cards punch against Nunn, and the two McCallum fights, I don't think any version of James I've seen is as consistent as Monzon. Monzon would still be there fighting in round 15; so would Toney, due to his own fine chin, but I'd say in a less-inspired manner.

Jones at his peak, however, is a whole other kettle of fish for Monzon. I picture his utter domination over the always-tough Pazienza (at any weight) or the easy win over Toney or the savage KOs over people like Hill and so many others, based on speed as well as heavy hands, and Monzon just doesn't stack up so well to Roy, IMO.

[Surf-Bat]

Max Schmeling KOed Louis not with power or speed but with rings smarts. Marciano fought many fighters faster and yes more powerful than him. It was his chin and heart that made him a great champion. My point is we don't know if Jones can win in a hard fight. We know Monzon can.

Bullseye! Jones never had a gut check. Monzon did. It's all about what you did when under fire. Jones' opposition was a blowtorch. Monzon's was a flamethrower.

[Steve McV]

Max Schmeling KOed Louis not with power or speed but with rings smarts. Marciano fought many fighters faster and yes more powerful than him. It was his chin and heart that made him a great champion...

Uh, just a sec... Marciano fought fighters faster than himself? Yes, indeed. But "more powerful"? More powerful as in punching power? Like WHO?

Unless I have totally misunderstood everything I've ever read about Rocky, not to mention the films I have seen of his fights, Marciano was one of the most powerful punchers the boxing game has ever seen. Even if "more powerful" didn't refer to punching, but to maybe physical strength, Rocky, by all reputes, was a very strong man.

Look, I'm not running down the importance of chin and heart, or ring smarts, and yeah, Schmeling found a hole in in Louis' style at the time and beat him with it. But it didn't help him survive the first round the next time they met. Chin and heart and some skill can make a contender, maybe even a champion. But to say speed and punching power aren't important... sorry, that just is beyond my understanding.

[PeteLeo]

Anyone who thinks Monzon couldn't up the workrate against a top-flight opponent needs to watch (or re-watch) the second Valdez match. He was cooking on all burners in that one.

Carlos could also bring bigtime power to the table (especially with the right) when he chose to. No, he wasn't a Nigel Benn or a Qawi or a Joe Frazier or a Mike Tyson, primarily because he didn't HAVE to fight like those guys. He had his fifteen rounds, and he was very seldom put into a position where he needed to hustle to catch up, so he used the rounds. You can virtually see the moments when he decided that certain matches had gone on long enough and shifted gears. People who gravitate toward the high-octane, hell-every-second style of fighters (hey, I love 'em, too) often close their eyes to the boxers who prefer control to wide-open aggression.

In some ways, Monzon was sort of a middleweight Ali, secure in his superiority and comfortable in shutting down his opponents so that the meetings developed at his pace. Maybe he could have been outhustled by Jones, but in the end I think Monzon's power and ruggedness would prove the difference. PeteLeo.

[mrbig1]

How many times have we seen upsets in boxing when the other guy had everything going for him only to be layed out. Morrison vs Mercer, Morrison had the speed and power but lacked the chin and heart. Ali vs Foreman, I think it's safe to say ring smart had everything to do with that. Tyson vs Holyfield. I can go on and on. Everyone thought Tyson was the man until he had a hard fight with Douglas and Holyfield. We just don't know if Jones can dig deep down to win. That's all I'm saying we just don't know. How many young stars in the ring have we seen get their ass handed to them against a smart veteran. Quarry vs Lyle comes to mind. I can do this all day. Does Jones have the heart or chin? Why did he turn down a fight a rematch with Hopkins which would have pay him boat loads of money. Have you ever known Monzon or Ali to turn down a rematch for tons of money? What did Jones know that we don't know. That Hopkins was tough as nails. That he had a weak chin. Can he be compared to SRR,Ali,Duran,Monzon or any other great champions of the past. I was a big Jones fan when he first came up. What turn me against him is it seen he was turning down hard fights to take on the bum of the month club far worst than Louis ever did. A big thing with me is can a fighter get off the canvas suck it up and win. I wasn't a fan of Larry Holmes at first but he shown he can get up to win. Can Jones do that? once again we don't know that. He has to show me more than just flash.

[Surf-Bat]

How many times have we seen upsets in boxing when the other guy had everything going for him only to be layed out. Morrison vs Mercer, Morrison had the speed and power but lacked the chin and heart. Ali vs Foreman, I think it's safe to say ring smart had everything to do with that. Tyson vs Holyfield. I can go on and on. Everyone thought Tyson was the man until he had a hard fight with Douglas and Holyfield. We just don't know if Jones can dig deep down to win. That's all I'm saying we just don't know. How many young stars in the ring have we seen get their ass handed to them against a smart veteran. Quarry vs Lyle comes to mind. I can do this all day. Does Jones have the heart or chin? Why did he turn down a fight a rematch with Hopkins which would have pay him boat loads of money. Have you ever known Monzon or Ali to turn down a rematch for tons of money? What did Jones know that we don't know. That Hopkins was tough as nails. That he had a weak chin. Can he be compared to SRR,Ali,Duran,Monzon or any other great champions of the past. I was a big Jones fan when he first came up. What turn me against him is it seen he was turning down hard fights to take on the bum of the month club far worst than Louis ever did. A big thing with me is can a fighter get off the canvas suck it up and win. I wasn't a fan of Larry Holmes at first but he shown he can get up to win. Can Jones do that? once again we don't know that. He has to show me more than just flash.

A perfect example of this is Pernell Whitaker. He'd shown that he had a reasonable degree of toughness but never like he did vs. Trinidad. There he was, an over the hill and coke-ravaged shadow of his former self, launching himself without fear and taking the best from one of the hardest punching welterweights in history. He was bounced off the canvas several times, but kept getting up and tearing in for more.

Then there's Jones, a bit past his best but nowhere near as far gone as Whitaker, taking on a lesser fighter in Antonio Tarver. We all saw what happened there. And I doubt Jones could have taken it much better even in his prime.

[mrbig1]

A perfect example of this is Pernell Whitaker. He'd shown that he had a reasonable degree of toughness but never like he did vs. Trinidad. There he was, an over the hill and coke-ravaged shadow of his former self, launching himself without fear and taking the best from one of the hardest punching welterweights in history. He was bounced off the canvas several times, but kept getting up and tearing in for more.

Then there's Jones, a bit past his best but nowhere near as far gone as Whitaker, taking on a lesser fighter in Antonio Tarver. We all saw what happened there. And I doubt Jones could have taken it much better even in his prime.

Well said Sir.

[hawk5ins]

When Jones saw that he could not overwhelm his opponent early or that the foe in front of him, simply was too sturdy or simply not intimidated, Jones reverted to a safety first distance fighter, content to quick his foe with sudden bursts and then retreat to a safe distance.

Unfortunately agianst Monzon, a few things are going agianst Jones with this strategy.

1-Monzon's physical advantages COMBINED with his array of top flight Skills.

No Monzon does not Dwarf Jones and Roy has faced foes with similar dimensions. But never anyone who is going to command Jones respect from coming in unimpeded and who can fight effectively from long range just as well as he can aggressively.

Jones wants to stay outside, Monzon won't be out of range to still throw punches. ANd Monzon CAN apply the pressure and step up the workrate to force Jones constantly being on the defensive.

WHEN Jones into this mode, there is no reason or cause for concern for Monzon to back off. It's not as if Jones is going to DIG IN and force Monzon off of him.

2-Jones's complete lack of a jab.

THis image of Jones standing on the outside and boxing and somehow keeping Monzon at bay with a jab, simply doesn't exist.

Jones Is NOT going to try and overpower Monzon. He's NOT going to engage with him.

He IS going to rely on fighting a safety first style from the outside. WITH a jab, Jones probably with his speed, would be able to offset Monzon's rhythm and timing and constantly force him to "begin again". But Jones doesn't have a jab with whihc his offense flows from.

Jones is used to setting the tempo and darting in and out with quick combos, having his foe frustrated and intimidated. Monzon is not that type of animal.

If Jones stays on the outside, Monzon will use HIS jab and long range combinations. He also will "hunt" Jones down, effectively cutting off the ring and as mentioned earlier, stepping up the output, with hard, crisp punches that quite simply, isnt't going to stop for 15 rounds. Now it's not NON stop, but it doesn't need to be. But rest assure, Monzon will NOT be the one slowing down come the championship rounds.

This image of Monzon simply following Jones around the ring throwing slow, low quantity, punches that have no power or snap to them, with no semblence of purpose or game plan, to me is a bit baffling.

Where is the evidence of this? Specifically. Someone go pick out a fight of Monzon's and break down where this Monzon exists.

I hear that this is a bad matchup for Monzon. Actually, I think the exact opposite is true. I think this is a Horrid matchup for Jones, based on his mentality and approach to fighting a "tough" opponent.

Monzon, does have an excellent chin, and he is super tough, and he has excellent stamina, and he has an excellent punch and Excellent physical tools that allow him to fight from a longer range which is where Jones is going to try to stay. And he CAN pick up the work rate and apply the pressure and cut off the ring effectively.

Jones's biggest problem, is that Monzon won't be going anywhere and he won't allow Jones to dictate the pace of the fight.

Frustrating for Monzon? I see the opposite. Jones will become increasingly frustrated as he will be in with a foe who simply won't follow the script Jones wants to have play out.

Monzon by late rounds stoppage or a relatively clear decision win.

Hawk

[Steve McV]

Bravo, Hawk. Monzon by "late rounds stoppage or a relatively clear decision win." I agree. Jones MIGHT be able to eke out a decision, but considering the diverse abilities Monzon brings into the ring, I'd be laying 7-3 odds on Carlos. I might even go as high as 3-1.

[Michael Frank]

I don't understand some of these analyses. Jones is infinitely faster than Monzon and a harder puncher than Carlos or anyone Carlos has ever fought. Roy is very unorthodox and throws (and lands) punches from various angles and distances.

Jones "reverted to a safety-first distance fighter"? Really, well, exactly what was Monzon? He was precisely that. He avoided getting hit at all costs, which his why (with the power so many here attribute to him) his fights nonetheless usually went into the late rounds.

Knock the Hopkins win by Jones if you will, which was a snoozer, but at least Jones fought him and beat him. Monzon never fought anyone at Hopkins's level other than a past-his-best days Griffith, who was also a blown-up welter. Napoles was so small naturally and overblown, and old, he doesn't rate as a top challenge at all.

I picture the Jones who beat Toney darting in and out, and launching those bombs that the opponent can't even see, and I don't like Monzon's chances at all.

As to Carlos being tested vs. Jones not being tested . . . I'm sorry, but Carlos's resume just doesn't have top-flite all-time middles who have tested him any more than Jones does. With the exception of being dropped briefly by Valdes in Carlos's last fight. If Carlos is considered tested by far-past-his-prime-and-weight Napoles, or the likes of Licata or Mundine or old Griffith, Jones HAS to be given credit for defeating fighters of a non-special ilk who were at heavier weights.

Beating a fighter who is a big name and accomplished at one's own weight is one thing; but beating fighters who move up from their peak weight is not the same accomplishment (e.g., McCallum beating a bulked-up Curry, Hagler beating Duran . . . and Monzon beating Napoles and Griffith).

Jones, conversely, moved up in weight and defeated people who, even if not the best of the best (Toney being an exception at the time), the simple act of moving up in weight and defeating champions is so significant that to me, they count more toward Jones's credibility than do Monzon's victories over his group of opponents.

[hawk5ins]

I Just don't see this as a difficult fight to break down.

Hawk

[walshb]

I have to agree 100 percent with MF. Carlos' resume is hardly legendary.
It's certainly no better than Roy's, who remained undefeated (montell excl) for so long and beat all challengers who were all pretty much natural middles and above.

Either way, this is man-man and if we are going to try and select Carlos simply because he may have beaten the better opponents, then that's hardly a strong case. Let's pick a winner based on their actual talents and traits.

In this case, I can only see a Jones decision. Carlos is too slow to beat Jones.
He hasn't the footwork, the one shot KO or the overall ring generalship to match Roy.

[hawk5ins]

Clearly and without hesitation in my selection, on any level or category.....the other way.

Monzon.

Hawk

[Surf-Bat]

Carlos' resume is no better than Roy's?

Sorry Hawk, but we have entered the Twilight Zone and I'm bailing out. I suggest you do the same.

[hawk5ins]

Advice taken.

Anything further from me is "cut n paste" time.

Hawk

[mrbig1]

They make a great point. Everybody knows that Kelly,Hall,Frazier,Grant,and Byrd are world class fighters. I'm out.

[Michael Frank]

Well, if you guys are going to leave the thread due to disagreement--and it can't be because you're so obviously right and others of us are so clearly wrong, since this is all just opinion--then see you later. I don't even understand this particular etiquette--we'll just all see each other on another thread. What's the point? One guy advises you to leave and. . . this indicates what, exactly? A polite way of dissing others?

Well, bail, bail away.

If Rodrigo Valdez or Briscoe (the latter on several champs' resumes always in LOSING efforts) or Benvenuti or Griffith-- at 160-- are considered a better resume for a 160 guy than Jones's, with Roy a 154-160 guy going up and beating guys & winning world titles at 160, 168, 175, and heavyweight (I probably forgot some, too), then yes, I'd agree the Twilight Zone atmosphere has been breached.

Just once I'd like to see the Monzon worshippers realistically evaluate him on what he actually did in the ring--how many rounds it took him to win, how fast or slow he appeared, how many guys he starched with one punch, how well and how quickly he moved his feet--and then acknowledge also that he fought in an era with barely any marquis names at 160 who were in their primes.

Carlos was a helluva fighter, I'd be the first to say. It's the notion that he can easily defeat gifted fighters like Jones and that it's so obvious--when I have seen Carlos ad nauseum and have a good idea of what he can and can't do--this is just amazing to me. Some guys on this site like him over Robinson, for God's sake. It's insane. Don't read about Monzon, watch his many boring fights and develop your opinions. (And, H5, I know "boring" doesn't equal "not good", but it does appraise his level of aggression and willingness to engage.)

Also, the certainty some posters have in these fantasy fights is quite amusing. In reality, few fights among champions have guaranteed outcomes. Witness Pavlik-Hopkins, or, should I say, Hopkins-Pavlik, the other night. Remember?