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Thread: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

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    Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Not sure if this one has come up before. I'll go with Moore to stop Ingo but he might hit the canvass a few times himself before doing so.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    I think he takes Ingo out fairly easily, perhaps visiting the canvas on the way as you said.

  3. #3
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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Interesting fight, but Ingo KO'd much better HW's than Moore in Patterson and Machen brutally and Archie didn't exactly have the best chin...

    Ingo Ko 1.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    The Machen KO was considered a fluke by most who were ringside. He hurt Machen early and jumped on him, brutalizing the stunned (and more more skillful) Machen. Patterson proved he was the superior fighter in the rematch and rubbermatch.

    Ingo would get countered and knocked out by Moore. The first significant punc that Moore catches him with and Ingo is in trouble. Johansson only has a puncher's chance the way I see it.

  5. #5
    Fat Abbot
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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    I don't consider KO's a fluke unless the fighter KO'd reverses it and even in that case calling it a fluke is innaccurate.

    Ingo hurt Machen early and finished him, if you throw a punch at someone and it lands, there's nothing flukish about that. Machen may have been more skilled, but Ingo totally destroyed him in the 1st round and thus was probably better.

    Ingo totally dominated the 1st fight with patterson, got dominated in the 2nd and dropped Patterson before eventually getting KO'd in the 3rd.

    By comparison that's a far better track record against Floyd than Moore who got destroyed by Floyd for the HW title.

    Machen and Patterson were both better skilled fighters than Moore and they both had better chins, if Ingo could hurt them in 3 of 4 fights, I think that punchers chance wuld be a good one against Archie.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Abbot
    Interesting fight, but Ingo KO'd much better HW's than Moore in Patterson and Machen brutally and Archie didn't exactly have the best chin...

    Ingo Ko 1.
    Moore was 42 when he fought Patterson and had just been through a meat-grinder by the name of Rocky Marciano. IMO, prime Moore v. Patterson is an interesting fight. The Moore who dominated Jimmy Bivins, Bob Baker, Nino Valdes and Harold Johnson probably beats Patterson, IMO, and he certainly beats Eddie Machen.

    I also think he beats Ingo. Lot like the Valdez fight, actually-- Moore boxes carefully for a half-dozen rounds until the big stiff starts to tire out and then steps on the gas and takes him to school.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Abbot
    Interesting fight, but Ingo KO'd much better HW's than Moore in Patterson and Machen brutally and Archie didn't exactly have the best chin...

    Ingo Ko 1.
    machen wasnt a better heavyweight than archie moore

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr E
    Moore was 42 when he fought Patterson and had just been through a meat-grinder by the name of Rocky Marciano. IMO, prime Moore v. Patterson is an interesting fight. The Moore who dominated Jimmy Bivins, Bob Baker, Nino Valdes and Harold Johnson probably beats Patterson, IMO, and he certainly beats Eddie Machen.

    I also think he beats Ingo. Lot like the Valdez fight, actually-- Moore boxes carefully for a half-dozen rounds until the big stiff starts to tire out and then steps on the gas and takes him to school.

    moore was actually 39 when he fought patterson, but i agree

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    By comparison that's a far better track record against Floyd than Moore who got destroyed by Floyd for the HW title.

    Machen and Patterson were both better skilled fighters than Moore and they both had better chins

    actually moore won the first 4 rounds vs patterson....so he hardly got destroyed by floy. and this was a off night archie moore. moore wasnt mentally prepared coming into this fight due to a blackmail threat. moore said he wanted to cancel the fight in the dressing room before the fight cause he was mentally not there. moore had just taken a bad beating from marciano a year earlier.......and then moore racks up 11 victories in a row leading up to the patterson fight in a gruelling schedule. moore didnt have enough time to recover from the bad marciano beating. the marciano beating had to take something out of moore since marciano was perhaps the greatest ruiner of all time. moore got no rematch from patterson either.


    machen more skilled than archie moore? are u kidding me? moore was in a class above machen in the skill department as good as machen is. i think moore would have beat machen had they fought. a past his prime harold johnson beat eddie machen. moore whupped a prime harold johnson 4 times. something to chew on.

    clarence henry who IMO was equal to eddie machen was dominated by archie moore losing 8 out of 10 rounds and henrys eye was injured in the proccess. clarence henry a vastly underated fighter was soundily dominated by moore. this shows me how talented archie was. archie won wide decisions in some of his wins over harold johnson. harold johnson is perhaps the best technical boxer of all time, and moore won a couple wide decisions over him. big skilled powerful men like bob baker and nino valdez were dominated by archie moore. master boxer jimmy bivins was badly beaten, floored and quit on his stool after 8 rounds with moore in 47 because he was in so much pain.


    i think stylistically patterson would have always beat moore but the 52-55 moore would have done alot better vs patterson. .....a off night moore won the first 4 rounds vs patterson on two judges scorecards.




    ingo vs moore? i give ingo a punchers chance but i see archie moore outclassing, outsmarting, and outboxing ingo and then in the late rounds i see archie tagging ingo with a straight right hand putting ingo on queer street, and then archie swarms over ingo with combinations and sharp punches and finishes ingo off.


    moore KO 12 ingo
    Last edited by Elmer Ray; 09-28-2006 at 02:54 PM.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    actually moore won the first 4 rounds vs patterson....so he hardly got destroyed by floy. and this was a off night archie moore. moore wasnt mentally prepared coming into this fight due to a blackmail threat. moore said he wanted to cancel the fight in the dressing room before the fight cause he was mentally not there. moore had just taken a bad beating from marciano a year earlier.......and then moore racks up 11 victories in a row leading up to the patterson fight in a gruelling schedule. moore didnt have enough time to recover from the bad marciano beating. the marciano beating had to take something out of moore since marciano was perhaps the greatest ruiner of all time. moore got no rematch from patterson either.


    machen more skilled than archie moore? are u kidding me? moore was in a class above machen in the skill department as good as machen is. i think moore would have beat machen had they fought. a past his prime harold johnson beat eddie machen. moore whupped a prime harold johnson 4 times. something to chew on.

    clarence henry who IMO was equal to eddie machen was dominated by archie moore losing 8 out of 10 rounds and henrys eye was injured in the proccess. clarence henry a vastly underated fighter was soundily dominated by moore. this shows me how talented archie was. archie won wide decisions in some of his wins over harold johnson. harold johnson is perhaps the best technical boxer of all time, and moore won a couple wide decisions over him. big skilled powerful men like bob baker and nino valdez were dominated by archie moore. master boxer jimmy bivins was badly beaten, floored and quit on his stool after 8 rounds with moore in 47 because he was in so much pain.


    i think stylistically patterson would have always beat moore but the 52-55 moore would have done alot better vs patterson. .....a off night moore won the first 4 rounds vs patterson on two judges scorecards.




    ingo vs moore? i give ingo a punchers chance but i see archie moore outclassing, outsmarting, and outboxing ingo and then in the late rounds i see archie tagging ingo with a straight right hand putting ingo on queer street, and then archie swarms over ingo with combinations and sharp punches and finishes ingo off.


    moore KO 12 ingo
    Excellent analysis.

    Prime Moore v. prime Patterson would have been a very interesting fight. I think Moore's punching power and pin-point counter-punching would worry Floyd and throw him off his rhythym-- but close fight either way.

    IMO, Archie is a very under-rated HEAVYWEIGHT. Part of the reason Marciano is under-rated is because people don't give him enough credit for steam-rolling Archie Moore.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    i think moores style would do well vs machen. machen seemed to have trouble with master boxers with good jabs(johnson, folley) while machen matched up much better vs big sluggers(valdez, liston, williams, dejohn).

    archie had a very solid jab, as well as master counterpunching skills. moores superior punching power and punching arsenal will allow him to land the cleaner and harder shots on machen. machen will have trouble figuring out a prime moore with all moores body movements, shoulder rolls, arm movements. i see moore taking a unanimous decision.

  12. #12
    Cojimar 1945
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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Moore had been winning prior to the Patterson fight and continued to hold his own for years afterwards. I would certainly have expected Moore to be motivated for the Patterson fight.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Believe it or not, hang me from the proverbial yardarm, but I actually believe Ingo would stop Archie with the big right hand and really hurt him bad.

    Archie is far superior, a genius with a boxing minnow, but the unorthodox style of Ingo and his hammer of a right hand and the way he kept dropping Floyd even in their third fight would be too much for Archie, not to mention what he did to Machen and Cooper.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Thinking Archie avoids, abates, and even absorbs a few of Ingo's rights then counters him silly. And eventually KO's Ingo in fairly spectacular manner.

    Archie not following up after he had Marciano down is interesting too. Later Archie claimed that the ref had given Rocky a mandatory 8-count, which was not supposed to be in effect for this fight. Not sure in contempory footage shows this at all...

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    It is entirelly possible for the Ol Mongoose to get him based on the best night for both men.

    It is just the feeling in my gut from having been in their presence and having listened to Floyd's answers from my questions about the power of Johannson's right hand and watching the films of how sneaky he was with it and how it would just blur out with that fast chop.

    Archie was really hurt by Durell but survived to do the job on him. That is for sure. Archie was old when Floyd and Rocky got him and did well against Rocky for a little while and was beaten down into submission.

    Rocky was relentless on Archie who would ride out the wide shots, absorb the clubbing and just got the drubbing of a lifttime from the 185lb Rock.

    Ingo was more of a flash sneak attack puncher with the right hand which was his bread and butter. It would come out of nowhere and he knew how to handle the fast guys like Floyd and Machen and the big left hookers like Cooper. Bad training methods were his bane and when I saw him in person in 1994 he weighed well over 300lbs at the WBC boxing convention in Seville Spain. He was also suffering greatly from pugilistic dementia, just pitiful as was Floyd's condition.

    I spent hours interviewing Archie in Mass at the Rocky Marciano Foundation Dinner, alone with a film crew in his hotel room. I covered everything from Hatchetman Sheppard to Maxim.

    When matching them up in my mind, despite the big weight gain, Ingo's frame was massive as was his bone structure. I see him hurting this all time great light heavyweight on their best nights.

    The Ingo that took out Floyd and Machen would be a great danger for the crafty Archie. It might be as bad for Archie as it was for Bobo Olson when he fought Archie and got blasted out in 3.

    Then who knows, Archie was an amazing athlete and might whittle him down, but Ingo was very strong at his zenith for a trimmed down 196 lb man as opposed to a blown up 185 lb man, and with a tremendously heavy punch.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Archie was really hurt by Durell but survived to do the job on him. That is for sure. Archie was old when Floyd and Rocky got him and did well against Rocky for a little while and was beaten down into submission.

    Rocky was relentless on Archie who would ride out the wide shots, absorb the clubbing and just got the drubbing of a lifttime from the 185lb Rock.

    archie was past his prime when he fought durelle. you dont want me to bring up brian london flattening johannsen do you??


    i dont think its fair to lump together the moore who fought patterson to the moore who fought marciano. i defintley think marciano fought the better version. marciano is the greatest ruiner of all time. after the beating marciano put on moore...there is no possible reason to think that marciano didnt take something out of moore.




    the 1952-55 archie moore takes ingo to school IMO

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    You can bring up any fight you want to, doesn't bother me.

    I have the film of Ingo v Brian London. For years I thought he ko'd Ingo the way I heard it told. Then when I saw the fight, I realized Ingo got up and finished. Anyway, The Mongoose was capable of most anything except beating Ezzard Charles, Marciano, Floyd etc.

    His forays into heavyweight were disatrous but as a light heavy he was superb.

    Nothing old Archie could do would surprise me and if I was ringside I would be the first one rooting for him against Ingo.

    I just have a bad feeling he would get nailed but like I said anything is possible.

    With Floyd so fast, so strong, Ingo dropped him so badly and Floyd had both hands big time. Yes he got him but Ingo was dangerous and even more dangerous to a light heavyweight.

    best wishes,

    Ron

  18. #18
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    I like Ingo in this match up. Arch is certainly capable of an upset, but Ingo was big and strong enough to withstand Arch's counters and tricks and eventually catches him. It would've been a worthy fight for sure.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Well, Archie lasted eight plus rounds against Marciano, so I'd say it would be a safe bet that he lasts more than eight plus rounds against Ingo. Maybe 12 rounds. Maybe 15.

    Ingo was a better than average puncher, solid in most areas (his chin was no better than average, IMO) but I think the old man would teach him a thing or two.

    Moore by decision, 8-5-2.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Just re-watched the first round of Ingo-Floyd III last night. Wow, Johansson's first right hand that dropped Floyd was NO JOKE. Quick as lightening, came out of nowhere, and hard. Of course Marciano was a much better all around fighter, but one of his punches as a single shot were as devastating as 'Tunder and Lightening' . . . Elmer I don't care what you say.

    If Moore last past 6 rounds I can see him taking the decision but I don't see him lasting that long.

    Ingo KO 3.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Quote Originally Posted by hagler04
    Just re-watched the first round of Ingo-Floyd III last night. Wow, Johansson's first right hand that dropped Floyd was NO JOKE. Quick as lightening, came out of nowhere, and hard. Of course Marciano was a much better all around fighter, but one of his punches as a single shot were as devastating as 'Tunder and Lightening' . . . Elmer I don't care what you say.

    If Moore last past 6 rounds I can see him taking the decision but I don't see him lasting that long.

    Ingo KO 3.

    ur telling me ingos right hand was better than marcianos suzy Q right hand???



    whos lights out did ingo ever put out with 1 punch? ingo failed to put patterson down for the count. it took him 7 knockdowns.


    marciano put walcotts lights out with 1 right hand


    marciano knocked out very durably peak rex layne with one right hand which sent laynes teeth flying into the stands

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    His forays into heavyweight were disatrous but as a light heavy he was superb.
    ron i love to hear ur opinion and respect you alot .......but i think ur not looking at the whole picture here.at heavyweight moore dominated very dangerous top HW contenders clarence henry, Nino Valdez, Bob Baker, Jimmy Bivins, Hatchetman Sheppard, and many more fringe contenders. so how was moores fotray into the heavyweight division disastrous if he had alot of sucess?

    moore beat excellent competition at heavyweight
    Last edited by Elmer Ray; 10-03-2006 at 02:01 AM.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto Aqui
    I like Ingo in this match up. Arch is certainly capable of an upset, but Ingo was big and strong enough to withstand Arch's counters and tricks and eventually catches him. It would've been a worthy fight for sure.

    big and strong enough? ingo was 6' 195lb. archie was 5'11 185lb(heavyweight). thats not much of a size difference.


    bob baker and nino valdez big powerful skilled fighters were not big and strong enough to withstand moores counters and tricks.



    ingo has a very vunerable chin.....moore is one of the greatest all around punchers of all time. even @ heavyweight....moore was a solid punch.


    Ingo was one dimensional with that right hand.....archie was too smart to get caught. i dont think ingo can take moores power either......archie takes out ingo in the late rounds after outboxing him throughout the fight

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    It's a "fantasy" fight...............

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    I respect the opinion very much of you gentleman also.

    Archie was one of a kind and I've said he was much the superior fighter that Ingo was. It is a good point that he did in fact beat some big men.

    Archie is one of the fighter's whose 8 x 10 hung on my wall as a teenager in my room. I had Cleve Williams, Floyd, Hurricane Carter, Marciano, Louis and a few others.

    I love the big punchers. I have said Archie could very well pull this off and it would not have surprised me in the least.

    Ingo was one of those guys that just had dynamite, dangerous one shot dynamite when he was on top of his game. That damn right hand of his was the hammer of Thor. That big Canadian fisherman Yvon Durelle was a bag of muscle and dropped old Arch early, Ingo whacked twice as hard.

    I think if Archie was very careful of this guy he could whittle him down like he did to others like Harold Johnson and Durelle, but Ingo was sneaky with that damn right hand and like Frankie DePaula, Hatchetman, Graziano, Lew Jenkins, Artie Levine, Lausse, Julian Jackson and so many others if he hit you right you went unconscious and folded.

    Others drop you some guys knock you unconscious if you walk into their stuff.

    No one can take it away that Moore had the most KO's and brother did he earn them. So maybe he would get the big Swede that night in fantasy land fights.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    thanx ron. and i do see what ur saying how johannsens right hand. it is pretty special to watch on film.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    I've stayed out of this one mainly because I wanted to hear what others had to say. Because for the longest time, I couldn't decidse which side of the fence to be on.

    First of all, I think Archie was not only a better fighter than Ingo (obvious), but I also think he was a better heavyweight. Archie beat some very good contenders, and he lasted a long time against sledgehammers from the Rock, who is on an entirely different plane of fighting than Ingo. So as a straight fantasy match, best on best or prime on prime, I take Arch's abilities over Johansson's power. Every time.

    But if the match actually occured, it's a different story. By the time Ingo entered the championship scene, Archie was already in his mid-40s, though eh remained a legit contender at that age. So we'd be facing the best version of Ingo against the aging and somewhat depleted version of Archie. In this match, a reality match not a fantaqsy match, I am leaning heavily toward Ingo.

    Johansson is thought of as one of the worst lineal champs, but I have more regard for him than most. The right hand is what everyone remembers, especially that despite not being fast of hands he was able to bring it straight down the middle and nail top-notch fighters with it. I also feel his jab and his mobility are seriously underrated by virtually everyone. If you put the 1959, pre-title and pre-partying-his-ass-off every night Ingo in with Moore, I feel Ingo avoids most of the traps and catches Arch well several times. And Ingo could finish, he proved that over his career, despite letting Patterson off the hook in their third fight. I feel he would finish the job.

    But prime on prime, no contest. Archie every time.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Good points, very good points.

    I think the world of Archie and his whole journey, the quintessential pro fighter.

    There are certain bizzare levels of power in that ring that negate talent, moxie and skill. Crude power that take men over the line of what they can take.

    Ezzard Charles did the job on Archie in his prime, when Moore was older, the way Floyd took him out and the way Archie had had it, was a bit sad.

    The Marciano fight was something he campaigned for as his big shot at the ultimate brass ring. He took a frightful beating but decked the Rock with perfect timing as Walcott did without really hurting Marciano badly on the knockdowns only.

    I think as I said Moore has an excellent chance to take him on skill. If Ingo landed with the big right it would be much much worse than Durelle.

    Marciano never landed the big right on the jaw but beat him down instead.
    When Rock took out Rex Layne he whipped it over the top in a looping arc and that kind of right never would have landed on Archie so Rock had to beat him down by throwing everything but the proverbial kitchen sink.

    The right hand Marciano took out Walcot with in the 13th was after another battle of attrition with the Rock taking the wort of it.

    With Ingo, his flash right hand was his thing. It was a numbing skull breaker and laid low Moore's conqueror Floyd Patterson, numbing him from top to bottom.

    Moore would do fine until hit with that kind of right hand, It is not just the 10lb pull in weights, it is more like a 20lb pound pull in weight as Moore was a real lightheavy. Ingo would have to cut off both legs to make 175, Archie did it with "Aboriginal" diet.

    Archie could be dropped and anchored there too. The Durelle fight would have been over with the 3 knockdown rule, but I am glad it wasn't, the better man won.

    Moore definitely had the goods to beat Ingo.

    As long as he avoided the Hammer of Thor, yumpin yimminy.

  29. #29
    Cojimar 1945
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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Johannson's best wins at heavyweight seem more impressive than Moore's best wins.

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    Re: Archie Moore v Ingemar Johansson

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Lipton
    Good points, very good points.

    I think the world of Archie and his whole journey, the quintessential pro fighter.

    There are certain bizzare levels of power in that ring that negate talent, moxie and skill. Crude power that take men over the line of what they can take.

    Ezzard Charles did the job on Archie in his prime, when Moore was older, the way Floyd took him out and the way Archie had had it, was a bit sad.

    The Marciano fight was something he campaigned for as his big shot at the ultimate brass ring. He took a frightful beating but decked the Rock with perfect timing as Walcott did without really hurting Marciano badly on the knockdowns only.

    I think as I said Moore has an excellent chance to take him on skill. If Ingo landed with the big right it would be much much worse than Durelle.

    Marciano never landed the big right on the jaw but beat him down instead.
    When Rock took out Rex Layne he whipped it over the top in a looping arc and that kind of right never would have landed on Archie so Rock had to beat him down by throwing everything but the proverbial kitchen sink.

    The right hand Marciano took out Walcot with in the 13th was after another battle of attrition with the Rock taking the wort of it.

    With Ingo, his flash right hand was his thing. It was a numbing skull breaker and laid low Moore's conqueror Floyd Patterson, numbing him from top to bottom.

    Moore would do fine until hit with that kind of right hand, It is not just the 10lb pull in weights, it is more like a 20lb pound pull in weight as Moore was a real lightheavy. Ingo would have to cut off both legs to make 175, Archie did it with "Aboriginal" diet.

    Archie could be dropped and anchored there too. The Durelle fight would have been over with the 3 knockdown rule, but I am glad it wasn't, the better man won.

    Moore definitely had the goods to beat Ingo.

    As long as he avoided the Hammer of Thor, yumpin yimminy.
    Your analysis reminds me of R.A.Haldane's analysis of an Archie Moore v. Georges Carpentier fight, in which he pointed out that Moore DID tend to get hit by right hands -- always a weakness of his -- and that a guy who could zip in a big right w/ some precision would always cause him trouble.

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