submit top ten heavyweights

[10-8]

tim witherspoon ducked mike tyson. he wanted no part of tyson after seeing tyson destroy pinklon thomas( a man who beat spoon)

tyson was beating the shit out of most of the top 1980s alpha champs.....he would have done the same to spoon like he did to tubbs, berbick and thomas

That's a new one. When exactly was Witherspoon supposed to have ducked Tyson? What source backs up that claim?

Witherspoon lost his WBA belt to Bonecrusher Smith a couple of weeks after Tyson beat Berbick. Since it was Tyson's (Don King's) plan to unify the belts, Witherspoon likely would have fought Tyson instead of Bonecrusher had he not been upset and KO'd by Smith.

Somehow I've never envisioned Witherspoon ducking a title fight with Tyson and the lucrative payday it would have been in favour of fighting nobodies like Mauricio Villegas and Larry Alexander for chump change...

[dmt]

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Sonny Liston
6. George Foreman
7. Rocky Marciano
8. Jim Jeffries
9. Joe Frazier
10. Lennox Lewis

[dmt]

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Sonny Liston
6. George Foreman
7. Rocky Marciano
8. Jim Jeffries
9. Joe Frazier
10. Lennox Lewis

[Elmer Ray]

That's a new one. When exactly was Witherspoon supposed to have ducked Tyson? What source backs up that claim?

Witherspoon lost his WBA belt to Bonecrusher Smith a couple of weeks after Tyson beat Berbick. Since it was Tyson's (Don King's) plan to unify the belts, Witherspoon likely would have fought Tyson instead of Bonecrusher had he not been upset and KO'd by Smith.

Somehow I've never envisioned Witherspoon ducking a title fight with Tyson and the lucrative payday it would have been in favour of fighting nobodies like Mauricio Villegas and Larry Alexander for chump change...

witherspoons preformance vs smith suggests he wanted no part of a unification match with tyson

[hawk5ins]

Somehow equates to ducking?

Elmer, You obviously DO DO research here (though not always objective research). I suggest you actually research what happened with Witherspoon in this bout. WHo he actually was supposed to face. WHy he didn't face the original opponent. ANd the strong arm tactics that King played with Witherspoon (lawsuits ect.).

Witherspoons mind was a million miles away on that night. ANd it had NOTHING to do with fearing Mike Tyson.

You've come up with some doozy's in the past. But I think you may have topped them all with this one.

Witherspoon DUcked Mike Tyson, according to you and the evidence you have for this is his showing against Bonecrusher.

This is pretty embarrasing son. You might want to look into this "theor" of yours a bit closer.

Hawk

[Elmer Ray]

im sorry i didnt mean to make it sound like i based it off of the bonecrusher fight.


IMO.......witherspoon after seeing tyson dominate guys like tubbs, thomas, holmes, bonecrusher......that witherspoon wanted no part of tyson.


i dont blame him......seeing tyson easily dominate guys who beat him

[Cojimar 1945]

Johnson had some fine wins prior to beating Burns but Langford had more fights against top-level competition and some would argue that his best wins are more impressive than Johnson's because he beat Jeannette and McVey when they were more experienced than they were when they fought Johnson.

[hawk5ins]

THis was your comment:

"Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
tim witherspoon ducked mike tyson. he wanted no part of tyson after seeing tyson destroy pinklon thomas( a man who beat spoon)"

What is this based on?

And Coji, you are ignoring that against The fighters you want to give Langford credit for, he got at good as he gave.

Jack showed his superiority over the field. Can the same be said for Sam at Heavyweight? THis is the point here.

Hawk

[10-8]

IMO.......witherspoon after seeing tyson dominate guys like tubbs, thomas, holmes, bonecrusher......that witherspoon wanted no part of tyson. i dont blame him......seeing tyson easily dominate guys who beat him

Alright. I'm sure Witherspoon was trembling in his boots when Tyson failed to stop Tillis, the same guy that Witherspoon blew out in one round.

Tyson (Don King) was champion and determined who got a title fight. When did Witherspoon back out of, turn down, or ever state he didn't want a Tyson fight? There is ZERO evidence to substantiate that Witherspoon ducked Tyson. Witherspoon wasn't responsible for who Tyson defended against.

Now Tyson on the other hand ducking out of a 1989 title defence against Razor Ruddock due to an alleged case of pnuemonia (later refuted by examining physician Dr. Ghanem), or ducking out of the first Holyfield fight in 1991 due to an alleged rib injury might have some validity.

[Yogi]

Interesting to note that one of the points made in Witherspoon's 1987 lawsuit against Don King, the NYSAC, and the WBA, was that he should have been allowed to continue on to face Tyson in the tournament instead of being outright "forced" to defend against a short notice replacement opponent like Smith.

[Yogi]

"Although Tim Witherspoon lost his share of the heavyweight title to James (Bonecrusher) Smith in a knockout last Dec 12th, the former World Boxing Association champion is still battling outside the ring to get it back. Witherspoon has filed a $9 million suit against Don King, the promoter, Jose Torres, the New York State Athletic Commission chairman, and the W.B.A., charging he was forced to accept Smith as a replacement after Tony Tubbs, the original opponent, withdrew several days before the fight. The suit makes allegations of conspiracy, breach of contract, and violations of racketeering and civil rights law, and contends that Witherspoon should have been allowed to advance in a heavyweight tournament to fight with the World Boxing Council champion, Mike Tyson, who is fighting Smith in Las Vegas tonight."

- March 7th, 1987 issue of The New York Times

[Yogi]

*edit: double post

[hawk5ins]

Please stop this nonsense of letting the facts get in the way of a wonderful story.

Personally, I find it a bit annoying.

Hawk

[Elmer Ray]

thanx yogi........i simply misworded my opinion. i do think that witherspoon had he fought tyson would have ended up like thomas, tubbs, holmes, berbick.

[hawk5ins]

How was this misworded?

"tim witherspoon ducked mike tyson. he wanted no part of tyson after seeing tyson destroy pinklon thomas( a man who beat spoon)"

If you thought Tyson would have handled Witherspoon the same way he handled THomas, Berbick et al, I doubt anyone would have bothered to even comment on your post.

But you stated that Witherspoon actually DUCKED Tyson. That he was actually terrified of the man and even intimated that he gave no effort in the Bonecrusher bout out of some sort of fear that he harbored towards Tyson.

This was not a case of Mis-speaking. You made up something that had NO basis what so ever and when you got called on it, NOW you say you mispoke.

I'll rephrase my question: WHen you said Witherspoon ducked Tyson and wanted no part of him, how was this statement erroneously phrased? What were the words that you WANTED to say?

Because, "I think Tyson kicks the crap out of Witherspoon the same way he did Pinklon Thomas" is something ENTIRELY different than "Witherspoon ducked Tyson becuase he was affraid of him."

Hawk

[Yogi]

Please stop this nonsense of letting the facts get in the way of a wonderful story.

Personally, I find it a bit annoying.

Hawk

Sorry Hawk, but hey...based only on what I read, I would've stopped the Jimmy Carter/Tommy Collins fight much, much sooner too, so at least I think I'm being consistent.

Like the referee for that bout, Tommy Rawson, you come from somewhere around the New England area, don't you?

If so...

[hawk5ins]

Was living outside of Boston for the past 15 years. Unfortunately unfamiliar with Tommy Rawson.

Take care.

Hawk

[Elmer Ray]

How was this misworded?

"tim witherspoon ducked mike tyson. he wanted no part of tyson after seeing tyson destroy pinklon thomas( a man who beat spoon)"

If you thought Tyson would have handled Witherspoon the same way he handled THomas, Berbick et al, I doubt anyone would have bothered to even comment on your post.

But you stated that Witherspoon actually DUCKED Tyson. That he was actually terrified of the man and even intimated that he gave no effort in the Bonecrusher bout out of some sort of fear that he harbored towards Tyson.

This was not a case of Mis-speaking. You made up something that had NO basis what so ever and when you got called on it, NOW you say you mispoke.

I'll rephrase my question: WHen you said Witherspoon ducked Tyson and wanted no part of him, how was this statement erroneously phrased? What were the words that you WANTED to say?

Because, "I think Tyson kicks the crap out of Witherspoon the same way he did Pinklon Thomas" is something ENTIRELY different than "Witherspoon ducked Tyson becuase he was affraid of him."

Hawk

what im implying is I think witherspoon was scared of tyson. i dont think witherspoon wanted to fight tyson after seeing tyson demolish 1980s alpha champs who beat spoon.

[Elmer Ray]

hawkins I live in needham, ma. what part of boston you from?

[hawk5ins]

Now back living there (here). When I moved to Ma, I lived in Brookline Village, Charlestown, Salem and Peabody, in that order.

Now I'm back to my Green Mtn roots.

Hawk

[Yogi]

Was living outside of Boston for the past 15 years. Unfortunately unfamiliar with Tommy Rawson.

Take care.

Hawk

My mistake, Hawk, as I figured that since The Ring called Rawson "an admired and inspirational figure in New England boxing" he'd be a fairly well known personality to a longtime boxing fan such as youself.

My interpertation of those words was off, I guess.

Couple of things Rawson was known for though, if you are even interested;

- former amateur standout and fought for a period in the pros
- longtime referee who claimed over 9,000 bouts officiated (the most famous or infamous being the Carter/Collins fight)
- former chairman of the Massachusetts Boxing Commision during all of the 60's and most of the 70's
- was the head boxing coach for Harvard for ages, as he held that position for some 60 years (from 1941 to 2002).
- etc., etc.

[Crold1]

My personal list:
Louis
Ali
Holmes
Johnson
Holyfield
Jeffries
Foreman
Lewis
Marciano
Dempsey

[Elmer Ray]

Now back living there (here). When I moved to Ma, I lived in Brookline Village, Charlestown, Salem and Peabody, in that order.

Now I'm back to my Green Mtn roots.

Hawk

damm! brookline and charlestown are pretty close to needham

[hawk5ins]

I'm sure that Rawson was all of the things that has been stated about him.

The fact that I don't know much about him is clearly MY ignorance.

Understand that I'm also the guy who went to go see Dana Rosenblatt Howard Davis Jr. fight at the old Boston Garden (huge Davis fan) and on the undercard Mickey Ward fought and won. After Ward's bout, He was walking around and I went up to congratulate him and said "Great bout Dana."

While I may pretend to be otherwise, I'm not really the sharpest knife on the Christmas tree.

And Elmer, explain to everyone it's Needum. Not Need-Ham. And I used to live in Peebidy not Pea-Bah-Dee. (Quiet you, Sherman.)

Oh Massachusetts you butcher of the English language you....

Hawk

[gregbeyer]

how many times was collins decked in his fight with carter? ten?
greg

[Yogi]

how many times was collins decked in his fight with carter? ten?
greg

Hi Greg,

Yes, Collins was down a total of 10 times in that fight, which included 7 in the third round alone.

It was supposed to be about as bad as it gets as far as one-sided beatings go, and here's just a few quotes that may illustrate that;

The New York Times heading for that fight read "Brutal Title Fight Shocks TV Viewers" and their post fight included such comments as "one of the most reprehensible mismatches in modern ring history".

Here a quote from Nat Fleischer;

"Battered down seven times in the third round, helpless, his eye closed and his face distorted, his pins so wobbly he couldn't stand up straight, his senses gone so that he couldn't direct himself against his opponent, poor (Collins) had to submit to additional punishment that placed his life in danger, and all because Tommy Rawson, an old-time fighter, saw more fit to exhibit his skill in counting from one to eight - a baby's job - than the use of common sense, efficiency, and a human heart."

A couple more quotes;

"Everything we've done to make boxing a clean, competitive sport, they've thrown to the winds ... Millions of people witnessed this black eye to boxing, and it will take boxing a long time to make up for it." - Robert Christenberry , then chairman of the New York State Athletic Commision

"The worst exhibition of boxing officiating I have seen in 50 years. If Rawson was a referee in Minnesota, I'd take away his license." - George Barton, then president of the National Boxing Association


P.S. Wait til you hit the big four-oh, Hawk. That's all I got to say...If you think your mind/memory works in funny ways now, just wait til you're 40.

I do admit your Davis/Rosenblatt/Ward story got a chuckle out of me, though.

[kikibalt]

Did any of you guys from Massachusetts attended the Nat. G.G touranment in Lowell Ma. in 1973?

Frank B.

[Elmer Ray]

I'm sure that Rawson was all of the things that has been stated about him.

The fact that I don't know much about him is clearly MY ignorance.

Understand that I'm also the guy who went to go see Dana Rosenblatt Howard Davis Jr. fight at the old Boston Garden (huge Davis fan) and on the undercard Mickey Ward fought and won. After Ward's bout, He was walking around and I went up to congratulate him and said "Great bout Dana."

While I may pretend to be otherwise, I'm not really the sharpest knife on the Christmas tree.

And Elmer, explain to everyone it's Needum. Not Need-Ham. And I used to live in Peebidy not Pea-Bah-Dee. (Quiet you, Sherman.)

Oh Massachusetts you butcher of the English language you....

Hawk

yes sir!

hawk,

did you happen to be at rocky marciano-muhammad ali dinner boxing event in the bank north garden in jan 2006 this year??? i was there. just wondering if u were.






yes ur correct Needham is pronounced "needum" not "need-ham"


however to throw you off there is another town in massachusetts called framingham.

framingham is pronounched "framing-ham" not "framing um"

[hawk5ins]

I didn't move to MA until 1991.

And in 1973 I was only 6! Wouldn't fall in love with the sport until 1976.

Not too bad for a nine year old living in Vermont!

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

No I wasn't. In January I had two kids and a pregnant wife. Need I say anymore?

I have been afforded the luxury of working form home for the past 3 years so my trips into Boston (Alllllllll the way from P.B.D.) had been at a bare minimum before I moved.

I did read about it in the Globe post mortem (I have a special relationship with Mr. Borges btw. We both think the world of each other.) and did another "aw crap".

Wish I'd have made that.

Hawk