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Thread: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

  1. #331
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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by 10-8
    Good comeback to your 9 count theory.
    Apparently you think the ring WAS a legitimate ring?

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Define legitimate? It wouldn't have been a "legit" ring in New York or California, but Africa?

    As I noted earlier, I have always believed the ropes were too loose. But I do not think any trickery by Ali. I think rope-a-dope was a spur of the moment strategy, that and he used those loose ropes to great advantage.

    I blame Dick Sadler for failing to inspect the ring and making sure that the ring was in an appropriate condition for his fighter.

  3. #333
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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    It was a 20 foot ring and they had 24 foot ropes. This isn't rocket science - this was the first major fight ever in Zaire and they were not properly equipped. Dundee himself said prior to the fight that the ropes were too loose and asked if they had appropriate ropes.

    Unfortunately for anyone involved, Zaire was a dictatorship. When they said, "this is what we have and it's good enough," everyone involved would literally have been risking prison or worse to refuse to make the event a go. Facts of life, no matter how much someone in this thread wants to make an excuse for an Ali win in the fight.

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    I maintain

    We are dealing with Smokin Joe here.

    Mods, all he's been doing is intentionally trying to irritate and screw up threads. Look at his posting pattern.

    Don't take my word for it. Observe it yourself. From what he HAS posted to what he will continue to post.

    EIther way, he's a useless addition to the board.

    Another complete and total unknowledgable irritant. And we have enough of those already IMO.

    Hawk

  5. #335
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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    But, Hawk, he is making a valid point about the ring ropes in Zaire. I agree that the ring ropes were too loose and would never have passed muster in California or New York.

    I think he believes it was all fixed up for Ali, and I disagree with him there.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    I don't know if he's smokin joe\fat abbot, but his posts do remind me a lot of poster that has been banned at least 3 or 4 times already.

    I can't remember all of the user names he has had(one was PARET), but the guy had a hatred of Ali and was obsessed with Jimmy Young and Harold Johnson.He also constantly attacked boxing personalities, refs and commentators.Every post was some kind of patronising dig, or caustic atack.

    Obama fans posting style is almost identical-especially the comments on the paret vs Griffith fights and clancy.

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    Good point Mooch

    Might have been givng Smokin/Abbot a bit too much credit. To think he'd know who Emile Griffith was. You are right. No way.

    Ray, Click on this posters name and read the post by him. If you can find anything postive about his posts or even remotely sounding like he wants to have meaningful conversations with anyone here on this board, well please point them out to me.

    Maybe I'm off base, but I honestly don't think I am.

    Hawk

  8. #338
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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Okay, and after I do that, then what? As I recall, this is an open forum, and he hasn't done anything to get banned by Gor - so far, no name calling or racist remarks. If and when he does any of those things, I have every confidence that Gor will take care of it.

    He only irritates you if you let him. He doesn't irritate me and, besides, he's right that the ropes were too loose for that fight.

  9. #339
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    Re: 10-8

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    I did read that post and concur with the findings wholeheartedly.

    I was hoping to add to this by producing a few more Post fight articles on the bout....FROM that time.

    It is my position that this is a MYTH that grew over the years that Dundee and obviously Cooper himself have helped perpetuate.

    I'm trying to get a feel for what was said AT THE TIME.

    If anyone has anything other than the BI Article I quoted from, that would be awesome.

    Hawk
    I thought I had posted earlier that I found an AP report of the fight. It mentioned neither the torn glove nor the delay between rounds. I do not have access to British newspapers.

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    Thanks Ray

    I do find it rather curious that neither Post fight write up mentions at the very least a delay between rounds.

    Now if the delay was, as it seems obvious now, only 8 seconds, then it probably didn't catch anyone's attention. But if it were minutes as both Cooper has now suggested and whatever added time Dundee has in his various versions of this story, I don't see how this is MISSED by the AP or the pretty detailed article that Boxing Illustrated had covering the bout.

    You read a contemporary article about this bout and that is the main focus of the piece. But at the time, it doesn't get mentioned, even in passing?

    Seems rather unlikely to me.

    Hawk

  11. #341
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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Thus, another urban legend is born . . .

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    Re: Gee

    Quote Originally Posted by 10-8
    I guess Takeo Ugo should have put a halt to Ali-Bugner II.



    http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/33956...5A1E4F32AD3138
    Given how boring the darned thing was, it might have been the decent thing to do . . .

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    Not only that Ray,

    But has "active" participants perpetuating it!

    That's what is just so WEIRD about this one.

    Hawk

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Well, we all learn new things on the board. I believed the "urban legend" until we delved into Clay-Cooper I in more depth, and several of our colleagues on this board revealed the results of their extensive research on this issue.

    That's the great thing about this board: you can always learn something new!

    That said, I do have an issue with folks perpetuating the urban legend after they have been brought up to speed on the topic by those who have researched the issues.

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    I want to clarify what I meant with my last post

    As obviously can be interperated differently from how I intended it to read.

    When I say "active" participants, I actually am referring to Cooper and Dundee themselves. They were involved in what actually occured and they are actively perpetuating the mythology here of what actually happened.

    This is what I find utterly fascinating about this urban myth.

    The logical question of course would be to ask "Why would either Cooper or Dundee Lie about this?"

    Well I think it only enhances both Cooper and Dundee's legends by spinning these tales. Cooper is viewed upon as the guy who "could have ko'd Ali if not for the extra time given to him" and Dundee looks like a hero for saving Ali.

    Personally, I have no doubt the glove was ripped. I also don't doubt that Ange pointed out the glove to the ref. What is clear here is that no inordinant amount of extra time was awarded Muhammad. And CERTAINLY not in the "mins" range as has been told by BOTH Cooper and Angelo.

    Ali arose under his power and walked back to his own corner unassisted. Angelo had his arm around Ali as Muhammad sat down. THIS action has been blown into "Dundee had to help Ali back to his own corner". The Film does not lie.

    As it is clear here that no more than 8 seconds were added to the mins rest, I suspect that Ange brought the rip to the refs attention and that they converesed about it for a few secs and Angelo then stated they were set to go. Whihc they were.

    No one ran back to the dressing room. Dundee didn't slit any glove open. No gloves were replaced on Ali. And no more than 8 secs extra were added to the mins rest.

    Ali did not struggle to steady himself for the 5th. He was FULLY recovered and ready to go.

    It is indeed an Urban myth. But a curious one as two participants involved in the bout (Coop and Dundee), have been the ones who have created it in the first place.

    Hawk

  16. #346
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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Ah, thanks for the clarification. I think the reasons you give for the myth are probably correct. I suspect both Cooper and Dundee have told the story so many times they believe it themselves.

    However, one of the contributors to this board pointed out an action photo from the fight that shows the tear, and I recall seeing the same photo many years ago. So the glove was torn. At least that part of the story, and the fact Clay got knocked down, aren't myths, but reality. Apparently, the rest is all fantasy.

  17. #347
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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    As some one who has designed a ring and errected numerous others, i can say there is no way that 24 foot ropes can be put on a twenty foot ring and look as good as the ropes in Zaire looked(bad as they were!)-they simply would not get any tension if a foot too long on every side.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by MATTDONNELLON
    As some one who has designed a ring and errected numerous others, i can say there is no way that 24 foot ropes can be put on a twenty foot ring and look as good as the ropes in Zaire looked(bad as they were!)-they simply would not get any tension if a foot too long on every side.
    Matt the ropes were cut to size by Bobby Goodman and Angelo Dundee using razor blades. Archie Moore and Dick Saddler were there also to inspect the ring and refused to help.

    According to Goodman/Dundee the ring was also uneven and one corner needed to be propped up to make the ring level.

    I don't believe it was a 20 foot ring. Zack Clayton said it was 16 ft. It was likely 18. The contract
    called for 19.

    Videos of the fight as well as overhead pictures (Neil Liefer's Memories) show a ring that appears smaller than usual for an Ali fight (other than the first Cooper fight which was another small ring).

    Foreman was also able to quickly cut the ring off and trap Ali much easier than he did Ken Norton who was hardly great at fighting on the backfoot, or even Jimmy Young for that matter.
    Last edited by 10-8; 03-10-2008 at 09:09 PM.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Apologies if any of this is redundant, I didn't have time to read the whole thread.

    Re Ali-Cooper I. There was a thread that examined this fight comphrehensively but I think it was unfortunately lost after the site was hacked into.

    Anyways, weighing in the uninterrupted BBC radio broadcast, film footage etc., it was reasonably concluded that Ali gained about 4 secs at best between rds and that Cooper and Angie have been spinning an ever increasing yarn with each and every passing year.

    Apparently the glove was split prior to the 4th rd and apparently again, Dundee deliberately worsened the tear after the end of the 4th rd, presumably in an effort to buy more time.

    Watching the video clip (from the BOXER'S series) provided below, announcer Gutteridge (?) sees the commotion in Ali's corner and notes that something "extraordinary" has happened.

    Gutteridge then describes ref Tommy Little's approach first to the time keeper to ask something and then Ali's corner - ultimately noting that Ali's glove is split,. Meanwhile, Ali's corner is well huddled around him, possibly obscuring some activity (though the extreme close up might've just given the illusion of same) but the administering of smelling salts and Ali's disconcerted look thereafter can be seen.

    The camera then goes to a long view of Ali's corner without any apparent edit. Shortly thereafter, "seconds out" is called and the 5th rd seems to commence pretty much on time. PS - for what it's worth, the YouTube timer indicates the interval to be 60 secs exacty.

    I think that Dundee did try to buy some time but the British ref was having none of it - naturally. Perhaps the frst approach to the timekeeper was to instruct him to stay on target for the opening of rd 5, Dundee's apparent request notwithstanding, but I'm just guessing.

    While the perpetuation of the myth surrounding the interval between rds 4 and 5 serves both Cooper and Dundee in different and obvious ways, the myth also provides for a compelling "What if" discussion and examination of how hurt Ali actually was.

    Imo, a younger, lighter and not yet fully developed (incl. fully potentialled resilience) Ali was very hurt - at least enough for Dundee to try and buy time. Though Ali rose at 3 he was still unsteady on his feet and so buzzed that he rose from his stool again 8 secs after sitting down. I don't know that we can point to his survival in rds 11 and 15 v Frazier and necessarily suggest that he was capable of enduring same at the point in his career (in 1963).

    Personally, viewing an older, heavier and more conditioned for punishment Ali, as he was for Frazier , I doubt very much that the exact same left hook from 185 lb Cooper would've even dropped him or impaired him for any great length of time. At any rate, though the MYTH has been busted, we can still speculate on what might've happened had Cooper landed with 30 to 60 secs still left in the rd. Certainly, imo, Ali was that much more wary of 'Enry's 'Ammer in their return stoush some 3 yrs later.

    Video Clip Link:-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di4uErQBRKM

  20. #350
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    Re: I maintain

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    We are dealing with Smokin Joe here.

    Mods, all he's been doing is intentionally trying to irritate and screw up threads. Look at his posting pattern.

    Don't take my word for it. Observe it yourself. From what he HAS posted to what he will continue to post.

    EIther way, he's a useless addition to the board.

    Another complete and total unknowledgable irritant. And we have enough of those already IMO.

    Hawk
    hawkins,

    Why is it, to your perception, that posting that the ropes were loose in the Foreman-Ali fight is "is intentionally trying to irritate and screw up threads."

    The ropes were loose in the Foreman-Ali fight.

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    How to spot a troll

    Let me count the ways.

    Or more to this point, let Zack Clayton count the ways from 1 to 10. And we can have Bob Sheridan provide commentary for it as well.

    The Ropes WERE loose. And the reason they were loose has been explained and covered about five times already in this thread

    And yet someone still wants to point to a "conspiracy".

    Agitate and argue for the sake of agitating and arguing.

    Rather than respond to SPECIFIC and DIRECT commentary and back ground that clearly EXPLAINS why the ropes were loose, you come back with "It's not a legitimate ring" and "the ropes were loose."

    Boy that adds quite a bit to the conversation.

    Hawk

  22. #352
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    Re: How to spot a troll

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    Let me count the ways.

    Or more to this point, let Zack Clayton count the ways from 1 to 10. And we can have Bob Sheridan provide commentary for it as well.

    The Ropes WERE loose. And the reason they were loose has been explained and covered about five times already in this thread

    And yet someone still wants to point to a "conspiracy".

    Agitate and argue for the sake of agitating and arguing.

    Rather than respond to SPECIFIC and DIRECT commentary and back ground that clearly EXPLAINS why the ropes were loose, you come back with "It's not a legitimate ring" and "the ropes were loose."

    Boy that adds quite a bit to the conversation.

    Hawk
    It was not a legitimate ring. And the ropes were loose.

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    Agian

    "Boy that adds quite a bit to the conversation."

    And does nothing to indicate that Clayton was corrupt or that Ali somehow cheated or that his win should be tarnished in any way shape or form.

    WHY they were loose, agian has been discussed and detailed adnauseum.

    Re-read what has already been written.

    Hawk

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Obama fan, do you contend that the Ali camp deliberately loosened the ropes to help Ali?

  25. #355
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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    Obama fan, do you contend that the Ali camp deliberately loosened the ropes to help Ali?
    I OBSERVE that the ropes were loose.

    I observe that it was NOT a legitimate ring.

    I have already said that.

  26. #356
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    Actually

    You said the ropes were LOOSENED.

    "The ropes were loosened.

    And the top rope came up hardly higher than Ali's lower back when he leaned back on them.

    No competent referee would have allowed the fight to take place until there was a legitimate ring there."

    All of the points you make or intimate at have been addressed.

    Observing the ropes were LOOSE and stating they were LOOSENED, are two very different things all together.

    AGAIN, read what has already been documented about the ropes in this bout, as covered by posters who have done thier homework on the matter.

    Hawk

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by Obama fan
    I OBSERVE that the ropes were loose.

    I observe that it was NOT a legitimate ring.

    I have already said that.
    Okay.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    While flipping through Bob Mee’s The Heavyweights this evening, I discovered an account of Clay-Cooper I that seems to pull many of the conflicting stories together. In his bio on Cooper (page 70), Mee writes that, following the knockdown at the end of the fourth round, the interval between the fourth and fifth rounds was "extended slightly" by the discovery of the tear in Clay’s glove. An official was sent to get a new pair of gloves, with the intention of replacing the torn glove between the fifth and sixth rounds. Of course, Clay stopped Cooper in the fifth, so no new glove was needed. This account seems to tidy things up a bit, although it doesn’t answer Hawk’s question why Cooper and Dundee choose to perpetuate the myth of an extended delay between rounds.

    This will be my last post, at least for a while. I have enjoyed my interactions with each and every one of you.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    What happened here?

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    Thanks Ray

    I have the book, but apparently never read the Cooper bio.

    That CERTAINLY is an intersting take on this. And one that seems to make sense. And if it did actually go down that way (why oh why have we not read this earlier?), it seems to make sense as an origin from WHERE Dundee ever came up with the "officials sent to the dressing room to replace the gloves".

    I've always wondered how that ever came into play with the story here, but now that makes sense. Granted it has been distorted over the years by Ange and Enry, but at least we have a starting point from how this ever entered into the story.

    Hawk

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