Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

[brutu]

Teddy Brenner the well known matchmaker of Madison square garden,was at this fight Ali vrs Cooper 1.He was in the front row(next to Liz(Taylor) and Dick(Burton).Brenner states in his book ONLY THE RING WAS SQUARE ,that Ali was saved by the bell at the count of six, and that by the time that a new glove was found that Ali had an "extra rest of maybe four minutes"(page 84-85)

[brutu]

As far as the Liston vrs Clay 1 fight.
Did you see the movie Muhammad Ali the Greatest,on the Sundance channel?
He(Ali) had to ask his manager immediatly after the knockout if Liston had dived.
He couldnt even tell the interviewer what punch it was that even knocked Liston out until his handlers told him afterwards.

[hawk5ins]

Brenner also claims that Ange slit the glove with a razor.

And he states that the bell ringing while Ali was down at the count of six, save Ali from being counted out.

And he says Ali had to be dragged back to the corner (not completely inaccurate, but definitely an exxageration).

He also claims that the glove was replaced on Ali.

We know that none of these are true statements.

So the comment about the extra 4 mins, while already proven to not be true, needs to be dismissed.

Damn I wish I could find a NY Times recap of the fight.

Hawk

[brutu]

Actually Teddy Brenner said(as told to Barney Nagler)
"Fight Guys later said that Dundee had pulled the oldest gimmick of all"
but
"Whether he did,I dont know"(page 85.)

[brutu]

I dont think Brenner was sitting in Ali's lap during all this commotion.
There was a delay for someone to go up to the dressing room in Wembley Stadium(Which had been until recently home for the Arsenal Gunners Football/Soccer team)
You know how far away from the grounds up in the stadium the dressing room for the fighters would have been?

[hawk5ins]

Brutu, the "delay" has already been disproven here. See 10-8's notes on all of this. At most there was an additional 8 seconds added to between rounds and it was more like 4 seconds. No one replaced any gloves and the round was not delayed for anyone going to the dressing room to look for another pair.

Angelo in one of his many recounts of this, acknowledges that no one went to the dressing room during the break and states that he only made the suggestion to TRY and buy time, but the ref was having none of it.

Angelo also acknowledges that no glove was ever replaced.

In Brenner's book, the very next sentence from whihc you quoted from states: "...But by the time a new glove was obtained and laced on Ali's fist, the fighter had and extra rest of maybe four mins."

Ali has been very clear and consistent with this one point. NO NEW glove was ever put on Ali between rounds.

Brenner's account of all of this in his book, is pretty much a total retelling of the myths that have come out of this fight.

Take a look at what 10-8 has written on this here. It's excellent stuff.

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

From Steve Lott:

I have just screened the video of the original BBC telecast of the Clay - Cooper 1st fight.
This master is un-edited and uncut in any way. According to the live British commentator, “Copper hit Clay about 2 seconds before the bell ending round 4.” You can’t hear the bell because of the crowd noise but Clay does get right up and begins to walk directly to his corner so we could assume that commentator is correct in his call.

I used the commentators remark about the bell and cued the time code on the video machine.

The counter reads Hours 00 Minutes 21 Seconds 30

The bell beginning round 5 is definitely audible.

The counter at this point reads Hours 00 Minutes 22 Seconds 38

When the bell sounds Clay immediately leaves his corner to start round 5.

Total time between rounds : 68 seconds

Two interesting things.
1. On the audio just before the beginning of round 5, the ringside official can be heard on the arena’s speaker system, “second’s out!” Then, two seconds later, the bell rings for round 5. Apparently, the ringside officials knew the period between rounds had exceeded the 60 seconds and tried to correct the timing of the event. Or else, they wanted Cooper to get at Clay as quickly as possible.
2. There was a remark made by one of the group about the different films that were edited together that make the video look odd. That was an excellent observation. The Clay - Cooper fight was first released for TV by Bill Cayton and Jim Jacobs back in 1973. But when I edited the film I had to use two different versions. The master version did not have round 5. I had to use a copy version of round 5 to complete the film for release. When editing these two together they look a little different in quality. As an editing point I used the motion of the left arm of one of Cooper’s corner men. He puts it on the ring rope just before the beginning of round 5. This is where I edited the two films together. I might have gained or lost 10 - 12 film frames ( about half a second ) in the edit. But not more.
Steve Lott

[brutu]

The only people who would know if that footage was truley uncut would have been the people who prcocessed it at the film lab in London before sending it to the United States.
Also the BBC was notorius for throwing away many important shows they had on tape during the late 1960's to make room for more current tapes in their storerroms(they didnt think anyone would be interested in any of it years in the future).
Thats why there are so many missing episodes of DR WHO from back then.
They even tossed out a classic Jimi Hendrix concert taped by the BBC at a college around 1968.
So I have to be suspect of any claim of"Un-edidted and un-cut as far as British tapings from the 1960's.

[brutu]

Does there exist a BBC or English radio broadcast of this fight?
Although if there was a four minute delay that may have gone to a commercial(s).
From what I rember they didnt have commercials interjected in between the television shows itself but between half hour or hour shows.

[hawk5ins]

Steve Lott himself has been in the Film business for quite some time.

I would think if we are going to take the word of anyone on this as to whether the film he was viewing was unedited and uncut (ie: uninterupted, with no camera breaks), it would be him.

An Expert.

Unless of course he were lying. But what would have to gain by doing so?

Hawk

[brutu]

What did the London newspapers write up about the fight the next day?

[hawk5ins]

About any post fight reports.

Raylaw mentions one AP report that says nothing of the delay and I have cited an article from Boxing Illustrated, that mentions nothing of any delay.

Agian, Steve Lott has a lot of experience with films and has a first class reputation. I see no reason to doubt his findings here.

Hawk

[brutu]

I wouldnt even think that anyone is lying.
Just that various recollections may differ especially since many years have passed.
Check out the classic movie RASHOMON.
You have to admit it appears suspicious that at a pivitol time , all those seconds form a semi-circle around Ali on his stool with their backsides blocking the television camera for just a few seconds.
Anyway I heard it wasnt slashed with a razor,but there had been a small tear in Ali's glove and someone stuck their finger in it and made the tear bigger.

[hawk5ins]

Lott's research was done much more recently than that.

And from the sound of what he was doing as described in the post that 10-8 provided, he was not relying on memory, but rather timed visual evidence from an uncut, unedited uninterupted film of the bout.

Regardless of whether Dundee made the horse hair more visible, made the tear bigger with his finger or if he somehow cut it with a razor, all of whihc could be shielded by the cornermen surrounding ALi, the bigger point here is that NO ringside officials were sent to the dressing room to get replacement gloves and the min's rest was NOT extended by anything more than 8 seconds and NO gloves were replaced on Ali hand.

The amount of TIME, between rounds is what the actual point here was. Becuase WITHOUT all this extra time Brenner claims was added to the mins rest, none of the rest of what he claims happened (other than making the tear bigger), could have happened.

Hawk

[10-8]

Steve Lott is not the only one to settle this myth.

In 2003, the British boxing newspaper Boxing News conducted an investigation into the 'split glove' incident. They used the the original television and radio broadcasts to determine length of time between rounds 4 and 5 and they concluded that only 5 extra seconds were gained.

[PD99]

Ali v Cooper I

Strange discussion which seems to go in circles re certain aspects that already seemed settled. On pg 12, among other things, I already mentioned previous scrutiny of both the television and radio broadcasts = only about 4 secs gained though 10-8 kindly provided the source of said investigation.

I also posted a link to a video clip of the fight from the Boxer's Series which appears to show the interval between rds 4 & 5 in full. On a one off recent inspection (I've seen it before many times) I still did not detect any edit jump but if someone else can please point to same. Varying angles and range notwithstanding, I think the footage is complete.

One thing, I believe that it was Ali's right glove that was split. Was it a right hand that opened Cooper's eye right up in rd 5 (or am I thinking of the second fight). Anway, I suppose the Brit officials were dealing with a sort of semi double edged sword in deciding whether to delay proceedings and replace the glove (moot point if there were no gloves) or proceed as normal so as to allow Cooper maximum opportunity to try and capitalise on his advantage. Obviously giving Cooper the chance to try and finish the job was the right choice at that moment (imo) but I would think that the torn glove wouldn't done Cooper's already split eye any favours.

[brutu]

Another thing about that fight is the audio sound is slighly out of synch.
Notice the crowd roars a split second before Cooper even lands that famous left hand.
I figure maybe the sound is perhaps a second or two too fast for the film.
Ali backside fell on the ropes before he went to the canvas.There would have been
like a second for the crowd to even register that Ali had been knocked down.

[brutu]

Another thing about that fight is the audio sound is slightly out of synch with the fight footage.
Notice the crowd roars a split second before Cooper even lands that famous left hand.
I figure maybe the sound is perhaps a second or two too fast for the film.
Ali backside fell on the ropes before he went to the canvas.There would have been
like a second for the crowd to even register that Ali had been knocked down.

[hawk5ins]

given recent conversations pertaining to Ali and Liston fights being rehashed.

Hawk

[Overhand_Right]

Does there exist a BBC or English radio broadcast of this fight?
Although if there was a four minute delay that may have gone to a commercial(s).
From what I rember they didnt have commercials interjected in between the television shows itself but between half hour or hour shows.

There are no commercials on BBC, never have been. It is & has always been funded by the British mandatory TV licence, not by the revenue from commercials.

[Elmer Ray]

I wish I could edit my article on this page. It has changed since I last posted it. Just brushed a lot of mistakes up. O well. Still the same premesis.