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Thread: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

  1. #181
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    Ha!

    THe Mag gave you a year Frank! They listed you as 43!

    I see a new poster name: KID-Balt!

    Hawk

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    Re: Ha!

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    THe Mag gave you a year Frank! They listed you as 43!

    I see a new poster name: KID-Balt!

    Hawk
    43? not true!

    KID-Balt LoL!!

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Frank, you didn't lie about your age to the good people at Boxing Today, did you?

    Me? I'm 30 years old and have been for the last 24 years.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    Frank, you didn't lie about your age to the good people at Boxing Today, did you?

    Me? I'm 30 years old and have been for the last 24 years.
    Lie? me? never--wait!, I take that back I'd lie to my wife when I first met her, I took off a couple of years.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    ...do you have a source for your FDR quote? Thanks.

    Sorry, I don't right now. I read it someplace.


    ww

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    [QUOTE=raylawpc]When did I ever call you a name?



    --- The standard issue boxing forum yapping lap dogs, not you.



    You said that there were other Ali fights whose result merited a reexamination. What are they?

    I now take it to mean that a "cogent comment" is one that agrees with your point of view.


    --- That's not what cogent means. Cogent means "relevant, pertinent"....or, in this case, anything at all, for that matter.


    I respectfully decline to do that, at least as to your comments on Ali-Liston II or Clay-Cooper I.


    --- OK, fair enough, and likewise here re your request.


    ---- Yours, ww

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    Frank, you didn't lie about your age to the good people at Boxing Today, did you?

    Me? I'm 30 years old and have been for the last 24 years.

    Jack Benny always used to say he was...39. When I was a kid I used to wonder why, if the guy is gonna lie about his age, why would he pick such an incredibly old age like 39 to lie about?




    ww

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by werewolf
    If people want to address the points I made, fine. . .



    ww
    I just took you at your word, and only wanted to address the points you made about other Ali fights meriting reexamination.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    OK, see what I can remember.

    Aside from the two phony Liston things, and the Cooper 1 crookery -

    Jones and Young - phony decisions.

    Foreman - rigged ring ropes.

    The wrestler-boxer fight in '76, I believe, vs. Inoki. This was billed and sold as legit, not a shoot. I got this from wrestling insiders. Inoki was so good that Clay wouldn't have lasted a minute with him, they said. The Black Muslims got the Yakuza to tell Inoki that they want him on the ground, something like that. So he complied. He also gave Clay phlebitis of the legs, which permanently plagued him, I understand.

    Incidentally, the same night there was another wrestler-boxer affair, likewise billed as legit, and legit it was in all its brutality. Andre the Giant vs. Wepner (who I used to know indirectly). Andre's stage persona was mister nice guy, but he wasn't, and he showed what he was that night when he head butted the far smaller Wepner as hard as he could, like legit, and then, also legit, picked him up and tossed him out of the ring. Wepner was lucky he wasn't killed. Andre also fancied masturbating in public.





    ww

  10. #190
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    I also place most of my doubt

    re the legitimacy of Ali's Career, largley in part becuase of how the Inoki match played out.

    What a joke that was.

    But even moreso than that bout, it was the DC Comic that had Ali fighting Superman.

    C'mon folks, right there, you knew that Ali's entire career was contrived bullshot, when they had the audacity to try and sell that matchup as the real thing.

    Let's be real now.

    Hawk

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    This message is hidden because hawk5ins is on your ignore list.

  12. #192
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    Man

    How does he know I'm referencing anything he wrote?

    I wonder if he is using this function:

    View Post 02-19-2008, 03:46 PM

    I bet he is, the cheater.

    I wish he could see what I put together and he'd see I'm in his corner!

    Ali vs. Superman?

    Puleeeze!

    The good thing here, is that even though HE can't read what I'm posting, EVERYONE ELSE can!

    Feel free everyone join in on the Ali vs. Superman "discussion".

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 02-19-2008 at 04:53 PM.

  13. #193
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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by werewolf
    OK, see what I can remember.

    Aside from the two phony Liston things, and the Cooper 1 crookery -

    Jones and Young - phony decisions.

    Foreman - rigged ring ropes.

    The wrestler-boxer fight in '76, I believe, vs. Inoki. This was billed and sold as legit, not a shoot. I got this from wrestling insiders. Inoki was so good that Clay wouldn't have lasted a minute with him, they said. The Black Muslims got the Yakuza to tell Inoki that they want him on the ground, something like that. So he complied. He also gave Clay phlebitis of the legs, which permanently plagued him, I understand.

    Incidentally, the same night there was another wrestler-boxer affair, likewise billed as legit, and legit it was in all its brutality. Andre the Giant vs. Wepner (who I used to know indirectly). Andre's stage persona was mister nice guy, but he wasn't, and he showed what he was that night when he head butted the far smaller Wepner as hard as he could, like legit, and then, also legit, picked him up and tossed him out of the ring. Wepner was lucky he wasn't killed. Andre also fancied masturbating in public.





    ww
    Thank you for your response. Both the Young and Jones fights were close affairs, but I personally think Ali won both. Ali hasn't paid me anything for that opinion. It is genuinely held by me. I hasten to add that I would not have been surprised if the Jones decision went the other way and, even though I thought Ali won, I would not have thought that Jones won by any illicit means if it had. Without additional evidence, the mere fact that one disagrees with a close decision does not mean the fight was crooked. The fact you don't like the decision - or even if it was unpopular - does not, in and of itself, mean the judging was fixed.

    BTW, I was not a Muhammad Ali fans at any time during his career, and can't think of a single time that I didn't root for his opponent. (That said, I have come to respect him now for the dignified manner in which he has handled his battle with Parkinson's.)

    Regarding the Inoki exhibition, I've never seen it. And I wouldn't have walked across the street to see it then, even for free. I don't want to see it now. Pro wrestling is a joke.

    I could have done without the mental picture of Andre the Giant masturbating, and I'm not sure what that comment added to the discussion about Ali fights we should reexamine.

    You might consider turning off your ignore function. Hawk tells us he actually agreed with you about Ali and Inoki.
    Last edited by raylawpc; 02-19-2008 at 05:40 PM.

  14. #194
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    Yes I did Ray

    But let me add, that Superman, no matter how superior I find him over Ali, was himself, like Andre the Giant, known to have taken a little extra "time" in the phone booth when getting changed.

    Now there is a visual.

    Hawk

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Yes, and thank you for that mental picture too. Let's see now . . where is that ignore function . . . ??

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Oh, and werewolf, as far as the ring ropes for the Foreman fight, I blame Dick Sadler for that one. He only started bitching about the ropes when it was clear that Ali was using them to his advantage.

    I have heard or read that he never even inspected the ring before the fight. (Shades of Billy Delaney!!) I don't think he was crooked - just stupid.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    Oh, and werewolf, as far as the ring ropes for the Foreman fight, I blame Dick Sadler for that one. He only started bitching about the ropes when it was clear that Ali was using them to his advantage.

    I have heard or read that he never even inspected the ring before the fight. (Shades of Billy Delaney!!) I don't think he was crooked - just stupid.
    More myths.

    The ring used for the Foreman fight was 16 ft square. The ropes were for a 20 foot ring. When tightened to the max they were still drooping way too low. Upon inspecting the ring the day of the fight Angelo Dundee cut lengths of the ropes and re-tightened them which still left them more loose than what should have been. Saddler and Moore both refused to help Dundee prepare the ring.

    The ring also had a very small apron. In most standard rings the bracket that holds the turnbuckles is set a foot or two from the corner of the apron (standard in wrestling rings).

    For the Foreman fight the bracket was mounted outside the apron against the corner which left almost no apron at all. In certain photos of the Foreman fight, you can see Ali's rear foot precariously close to the ring edge.

    So in the end Ali had a 16 foot ring with almost no apron and loose ropes. If Ali had been knocked or pushed through the ropes he would have ended up in the first row.

    Quite the advantage...
    Last edited by 10-8; 02-19-2008 at 09:09 PM.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    You know, I'm in the camp that says if Ali and Foreman met 3 times, Ali would win all 3. Didn't think so before Oct 1974, but to me, Ali showed then that he had George's number.

    George was not, at that time, going to become a fighter with great stamina (the big-muscled guys rarely are, and look what happened against Young). Ali could take George's punch, and that's the end of the story. George certainly isn't going to outbox him.

    The Cooper #1 fight? Werewolf, that's the one I agree with you on. Not that it was fixed, but that Ali won illegitimately. However, he went on to prove his mastery of Cooper in fight #2, shown also in every round of their first fight as well, save the big knockdown. I'm one guy who thinks Ali would have lost that one if he'd left his corner within 60 seconds. He was never so hurt in his entire career.

    As to Jones, well, he accomplished about 10% of what Ali accomplished careerwise, so I'm glad Ali won. But I felt that Ali also truly won on points, close.

    The Inoki fight has no relevance here. Bill it however they did, there is no legitimacy when pro wrestlers are involved. It was further not legit in that it wasn't a real fight, but Ali ONLY punching and the wrestler ONLY wrestling (actually, only kicking). Who cares how that one turned out anyway?

    Sonny Liston, to me, went in the tank both times. Yet, I believe Ali had the style, youth, and chin to beat him legitimately, which it appeared he was doing for most of each bout's duration. And, it doesn't mean Ali was in on any fix. You only need to fix one guy.

    To me, NO WAY did Young beat Ali. Not ducking out of the ropes and throwing less-than-slaps to Ali's belly. Young fought to survive that fight, not to win.

    I just don't see the case for Ali's fights needing reexamination as if they were fixed.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Frank
    The Cooper #1 fight? Werewolf, that's the one I agree with you on. Not that it was fixed, but that Ali won illegitimately. However, he went on to prove his mastery of Cooper in fight #2, shown also in every round of their first fight as well, save the big knockdown. I'm one guy who thinks Ali would have lost that one if he'd left his corner within 60 seconds. He was never so hurt in his entire career.
    I'm not buying it.

    How can anyone surmise how badly hurt Ali was? He was hit moving away from the punch that tagged him, slid slowly down the ropes and hit the canvas softly. He then immediately got up on his own walked to his corner unassisted and sat on his stool. How can anyone other than Ali's corner know what condition he was in? How can you tell how badly a guy is hurt if he's sitting down on his stool?

    The total extra time according to the BBC broadcast was 8 seconds.

    Ali then goes out and stops Cooper.

    So if we take the 8 seconds back Cooper stops Ali?

    Huh?

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by 10-8
    More myths.

    The ring used for the Foreman fight was 16 ft square. The ropes were for a 20 foot ring. When tightened to the max they were still drooping way too low. Upon inspecting the ring the day of the fight Angelo Dundee cut lengths of the ropes and re-tightened them which still left them more loose than what should have been. Saddler and Moore both refused to help Dundee prepare the ring.

    The ring also had a very small apron. In most standard rings the bracket that holds the turnbuckles is set a foot or two from the corner of the apron (standard in wrestling rings).

    For the Foreman fight the bracket was mounted outside the apron against the corner which left almost no apron at all. In certain photos of the Foreman fight, you can see Ali's rear foot precariously close to the ring edge.

    So in the end Ali had a 16 foot ring with almost no apron and loose ropes. If Ali had been knocked or pushed through the ropes he would have ended up in the first row.

    Quite the advantage...
    So, in your opinion, the loose ropes DIDN'T help Ali?

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Thank you for your response. Both the Young and Jones fights were close affairs, but I personally think Ali won both.



    --- I really need to watch them again. It's been a long time. But I do remeember feeling that Ali clearly lost both of them, an opiniion, I believe, that was shared by the majority of objective and onlookers at the time. I see on Boxrec that the referee, Loscalzo, in the Jones fight, gave it to Ali 8 to 1. There's Exhibit A right there.



    Ali hasn't paid me anything for that opinion. It is genuinely held by me. I hasten to add that I would not have been surprised if the Jones decision went the other way and, even though I thought Ali won, I would not have thought that Jones won by any illicit means if it had. Without additional evidence, the mere fact that one disagrees with a close decision does not mean the fight was crooked. The fact you don't like the decision - or even if it was unpopular - does not, in and of itself, mean the judging was fixed.


    --- Accumulation of evidence. A pattern.



    BTW, I was not a Muhammad Ali fans at any time during his career, and can't think of a single time that I didn't root for his opponent. (That said, I have come to respect him now for the dignified manner in which he has handled his battle with Parkinson's.)


    --- Maybe so, but throughout his boxing career he was the antithesis of decency and good sportsmanship, always mocking his fallen oponents, even if they had actually fallen from reasons other than his own ability, such as Liston. In fact it was probably Ali that started the trend to chest pounding and bragadoccio and the demise of civilized conduct in large segments of American boxing. It is now very refreshing to see the European sportsmen who still behave as sportsmen. I saw his daughter fight once (I abhor womens boxing). Chip off the old block. She was cursing at and mocking her fallen adversary.




    Regarding the Inoki exhibition, I've never seen it. And I wouldn't have walked across the street to see it then, even for free. I don't want to see it now. Pro wrestling is a joke.



    --- Pro wrestling is sort of a carnival show based on what was once a legitimate sport. Sometimes boxing seems to be evolving in the same direction. The concept, however - wrestler vs. boxer - was quite intriguing, I thought. It was supposed to be on the level. Andre sure played it for all it was worth, almost killing poor Wepner.



    I could have done without the mental picture of Andre the Giant masturbating, and I'm not sure what that comment added to the discussion about Ali fights we should reexamine.


    --- I hear you on that one, and I'm rather sorry I ever heard that story in the first place. What he did, they tell me, was deliberately leave his hotel door open when he was on the road. I wouldn't dwell upon it if I were you. It was just an interesting (?) anecdote.





    --- ww

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    The whole "rope-a-dope" schtick wouldn't have worked without the special loose ropes.



    ww


    PS What's with this wait three minutes between posts!?

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Clay-Jones was a CLEAR win for Clay, I can't stand that fight being brough up as some sort of robbery. Clay outworked Jones pretty much the entire fight.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    "The total extra time according to the BBC broadcast was 8 seconds..."


    Doesn't matter if the total extra time was 1/2 second. He violated the rules by cheating. He lost the fight. The record books need to be changed.


    ww

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    "You might consider turning off your ignore function. Hawk tells us he actually agreed with you about Ali and Inoki."


    Really? If he agrees with me, perhaps I should reevaluate my position on the Ali-Inoki thing.

    But seriously, they sold tickets to the damned thing, and the Andre-Wepner damned thing, by billing them not as another wrassling carny show, but as legit showdowns between wrestler and boxer to see who could beat who - and Clay wouldn't even participate in something like that fair and square and on the level.

    They should not have permitted Andre to do the dangerous carny wrassling crap he did, the head butts and the tossing out of the ring. Poor Wepner was standing there, outweighed by 200 pounds or so, festooned with boxing gloves, and trying to do the Marquis of Queensbury thing, and meanwhile demented King Kong Jr. was playing by Vince McMahon's rules, or rather no rules at all.






    ww

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Clay-Jones

    Here it is. I will watch it now.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=HPL7bdw_VTU

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Werewolf: Even if I agreed (I don't), tell me how to change the result from a fight 45 years ago that was approved by the boxing commission (in this case, the BBBC) that sanctioned the bout.
    Last edited by raylawpc; 02-20-2008 at 01:17 AM.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    They only showed a few rounds so you can't judge, but from what they did show the fight looked about even. You can hear the announcers saying it was anybody's fight up until rd. 10, and rd. 10 was about even too. You can also hear the announcers saying "...most controversial decision" at the end. The ref gave it to Clay 8 to 1. That's bullshit, and as I said, that's exhibit A right there.




    ww

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by 10-8
    I'm not buying it.

    How can anyone surmise how badly hurt Ali was? He was hit moving away from the punch that tagged him, slid slowly down the ropes and hit the canvas softly. He then immediately got up on his own walked to his corner unassisted and sat on his stool. How can anyone other than Ali's corner know what condition he was in? How can you tell how badly a guy is hurt if he's sitting down on his stool?

    The total extra time according to the BBC broadcast was 8 seconds.

    Ali then goes out and stops Cooper.

    So if we take the 8 seconds back Cooper stops Ali?

    Huh?
    Don't know what fight you saw or what post you read, but Ali did NOT slide slowly down the ropes and land softly (I can see for myself), and he was clocked big time. I looked at his face in the corner and he had a dispaired and yet "out of it" look I never saw him have, before or since. His condition then is not open to conjecture in a CBZ forum, in your opinion?

    How can I tell how badly he's hurt if he's sitting on his stool? Surely you're kidding... That's beyond even answering, but I'll answer: doctors do it in fights always.

    What's this about only 8 extra seconds? I thought the story was several minutes were taken when the "cut" glove was "discovered" by Dundee. Now the additional time is only 8 seconds, this from the "unbiased" BBC (which was in love with Ali from the beginning to the end of his career)? Well, if you say so--I don't really know. I know the story of the additional time, going back 40 years to that era, was "a couple of minutes."

    As to "How can anyone other than Ali's corner know what condition he was in?", I never said I "knew"; I said "I'm one guy who 'THINKS' Ali would have lost that one if he'd left his corner within 60 seconds." Still do. It's common sense that if Cooper could so unload on and drop an alert Ali, surely he could finish a hurt Ali who'd lost his bearings temporarily. It is certainly a matter of opinion, I wouldn't really take memories of Dundee or Bundini to the bank, as if they don't have an agenda. Dundee is the one who allegedly split the glove, how reliable is he? And, a fighter can walk back to his corner on his own two feet and still be out of it, happens all the time.

    Hey, I give Ali all props for being perhaps the best fighter ever, at any weight. Doesn't mean I have to think everything he or his corner did was kosher. And frankly, werewolf's views about Ali's sportsmanship are, to me, right on target. He wanted the respect of being called by his new name and of being given a free pass out of military service because he was--hold the phone--a Muslim minister and a man of peace, yet he showed little respect to opponents, esp. at the time he would drop them. Calling them cartoonish, disrespectful names before and after fights. I think ww has made some valid points in that regard.

    I just disagree that somehow Ali won with all sorts of wrongdoing other than the examples I cited. I can't guarantee that Ali-Cooper #1 went down as I believe, any more than you can prove otherwise.
    Last edited by Michael Frank; 02-20-2008 at 02:00 AM.

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    Re: Sonny Liston, One of the most accomplished Heavweight Champions in history

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Frank
    Don't know what fight you saw or what post you read, but Ali did NOT slide slowly down the ropes and land softly (I can see for myself), and he was clocked big time. I looked at his face in the corner and he had a dispaired and yet "out of it" look I never saw him have, before or since. His condition then is not open to conjecture in a CBZ forum, in your opinion?

    How can I tell how badly he's hurt if he's sitting on his stool? Surely you're kidding... That's beyond even answering, but I'll answer: doctors do it in fights always.

    What's this about only 8 extra seconds? I thought the story was several minutes were taken when the "cut" glove was "discovered" by Dundee. Now the additional time is only 8 seconds, this from the "unbiased" BBC (which was in love with Ali from the beginning to the end of his career)? Well, if you say so--I don't really know. I know the story of the additional time, going back 40 years to that era, was "a couple of minutes."

    As to "How can anyone other than Ali's corner know what condition he was in?", I never said I "knew"; I said "I'm one guy who 'THINKS' Ali would have lost that one if he'd left his corner within 60 seconds." Still do. It's common sense that if Cooper could so unload on and drop an alert Ali, surely he could finish a hurt Ali who'd lost his bearings temporarily. It is certainly a matter of opinion, I wouldn't really take memories of Dundee or Bundini to the bank, as if they don't have an agenda. Dundee is the one who allegedly split the glove, how reliable is he? And, a fighter can walk back to his corner on his own two feet and still be out of it, happens all the time.

    Hey, I give Ali all props for being perhaps the best fighter ever, at any weight. Doesn't mean I have to think everything he or his corner did was kosher. And frankly, werewolf's views about Ali's sportsmanship are, to me, right on target. He wanted the respect of being called by his new name and of being given a free pass out of military service because he was--hold the phone--a Muslim minister and a man of peace, yet he showed little respect to opponents, esp. at the time he would drop them. Calling them cartoonish, disrespectful names before and after fights. I think ww has made some valid points in that regard.

    I just disagree that somehow Ali won with all sorts of wrongdoing other than the examples I cited. I can't guarantee that Ali-Cooper #1 went down as I believe, any more than you can prove otherwise.
    I agree with Michael, Clay was in a bad way when he got tagged and was literally out on his feet. He may have been quite lucky that the bell rang. Just look at the very glazed look on his face in the corner....

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