Here’s Looking At You, Casablanca: Marcel Cerdan by Mike Casey

[starlingstomp]

Not arguing one way or the other on Cerdan's opp, but wouldn't a lot of those records be incomplete if you are using boxrec to get them?.

[10-8]

Agreed, Jim. Well said.

Give Monte credit, though - he argued a very convincing case for Sonny Liston not being butchered by Pone Kingpetch.

"I certainly believe that he would have been too clever, too rugged and too hard hitting for Hagler."

Mike, I'm not trying to start a shit storm here, but Monte asked a simple question about something that YOU wrote, that being that Cerdan would hit too hard for Hagler.

Simple question that perhaps you would care to explain since you were the one who wrote it.

We all have reasons to justify our opinions, perhaps some elaboration on your part could clarify this.

[jim glen]

I'm merely pointing out that if these lads can stay the distance in competitive fights with a prime Cerdan, then are they not worth similar credit to Williams, Abrams & Green even Raadik gets fond praises from time to time.

Cerdan competes with any MW in history and beats most... I for one (for the sake of the fighters & accurate history) think Historians have got to move away from this Achievement based evaluation and equally get it out of their heads that American fighter doesn't automatically equate to best or better, especially at certain periods of the sports history. They just couldn't match them all together and in some instances Protection & Politics stole away these opportunities - is it then fair to overlook some fighters and have them forgotten or passed off as mediocre(?). We must look deeper with more thorough cross referencing.

As I've said many times before the best fighters from the leading boxing nations, if they were all based in the States fighting each other regularily then Boxing history would read much different, Title holders & contender lists would be very different...

Monte you made no comment of Gilroy as a Cerdan victim, Bert was projected to be a British and/or world champion, fought out of his weight just to get fights, sat at the top for years and got nothing, was the most avoided fighter of his era (that alone speaks volumes), fought more L-HWs & HWs than any other British MW, was Scotland's longest champion 13 years, couldn't get a fight with Dick or Randolph Turpin among all the others, and he got blasted out by Cerdan - why? try making weight in less than 2 weeks against one of the greatest MWs in history and in Bert's own humble words he merely stated: "if not for the weight I certainly would have given him a better showing!"

Do you see what I mean by placing these top men regularily against each other. In my research I believe Gilroy and McAvoy are Britain's greatest MW's ever, they were both proclaimed as probable world champions and none got their chance at MW titles. They were kept far away from each other, Mac with the overall better record and Bert favorite to beat him, these two Brits would compete with any MWs in history and remain among the top men, full stop!

and their not alone, I've been wanting to do a piece on Robert Villimain for a couple of years. Villimain who I call No Continental Divide - the Proof Fighter, a close examination of Villimain's record shows the calibre of fighter he and his opponents were, he went to town with the top American middleweights, ruled Europe and yet one fight on his record speaks volumes as to just how good these top Brits and Europian fighters were.

His fight with little Eric Boon, "fight of the year" in the UK, yet Boon was long past it, a former LW great and no way could Eric have done the biz with any of the top British Middles like Gilroy or McAvoy, he would have never been aloud even, Villimain IS the Proof Fighter and it's fighters like him, Gilroy, McAvoy, Roderick, Jack Casey and God knows how many more that deserve immortal statis
A) given their chance or
B) fought Americans regularily proving they belonged there

a look into the careers of some top men, who competed well with other top men and greats shows the divide wasn't/isn't as great as we have let it become!

Jim.

[Ted Spoon]

Cerdan's opposition is often scrutinzed off the basis of fans simply not knowing who they were.

Larry Cisneros, Georgie Abrams and Laverne Roach were quality wins, make no mistake.

[10-8]

Larry Cisneros, Georgie Abrams and Laverne Roach were quality wins, make no mistake.

With a first name like Laverne you better learn how to fight well.

[hawk5ins]

Shirley you jest about Laverne.

Hawk

[Sharkey]

Hawk,

if you could somehow have added the "Wahnt-waaahn-waaaaaaaaaaa" that would follow Ernie getting one over on Bert, you'd have really had something there.

[jim glen]

absolutley right Ted some right quality opposition there...

and as I said an appraisal of Robert Villimain shows just how good some of these Brit & Euro fighters really were!

[hawk5ins]

Although, I must note, I am right now biting on the heel part of my thumb.

Hawk

[10-8]

Shirley you jest about Laverne.

Hawk

Is it true about Laverne that give him any chance he'd take it, give him any rule he'd break it?

[hawk5ins]

But I hear he did make it on his own.

Hawk

[10-8]

Likely never heard the word impossible.

[Surf-Bat]

you guys need to stop!

[Sharkey]

There's no stopping them....They're going to do it.

[hawk5ins]

"There's no Stoppin' Us........."

Hawk

[10-8]

One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.
Schlemeel, schlemazel, hasenfeffer incorporated.
We're gonna do it!

[hawk5ins]

I'd have run a Milk and Pepsi bit first personally.

Or at the very least broken out into song with "Rags to Riches!" ya big Ragu.

Hawk

[bodyblow]

Cerdan got gifts against Abrams and Raadick. Roach's handlers were severly criticized before and after for throwing a young, green prospect in with someone of Cerdan's experience. That fight was a mismatch from the get go.

[Surf-Bat]

[QUOTE=bodyblow]Cerdan got gifts against Abrams and Raadick.


Not true. Cerdan won 9 of 10 rounds vs. Raadik according to the Chicago Papers(Raadik's hometown). The "knockdowns" I addressed in another thread.

Abrams put up a good fight, but Cerdan won a clear-cut victory over Georgie. Cerdan came over here with a boatload of hype(Ezzard Charles called him "The greatest fighter I have ever seen") and was expected to destroy everyone they put in front of him. When he didn't ko Abrams he caught some flak, certain sportswriters and members of the crowd forgetting that Abrams was no easy haul for ANYONE.

But Cerdan clearly won both fights.

[bodyblow]

There were plenty who felt both Raadick and Abrams were robbed and Id love to see what papers you are quoting from Chicago because "all" did not have Cerdan ahead 9-0 going into the tenth.

[Surf-Bat]

There were plenty who felt both Raadick and Abrams were robbed and Id love to see what papers you are quoting from Chicago because "all" did not have Cerdan ahead 9-0 going into the tenth.

Mr. JJ Johnston- Chicago boxing expert- gave me an article from one of the Chicago papers(I'll try to find it). It stated that the judges had Cerdan winning 9 of 10 rounds.

I've never heard of anyone saying Raadik was "robbed". You're the first. You're going to have to furnish some proof here. Shouldn't be too hard if there is, as you say, "plenty". All accounts I've read have Cerdan beating Anton from pillar to post in every round but the last.

[Surf-Bat]

And Abrams lost clearly as well. His stubborn resistance however, won the crowd over(who were on his side anyway). Cerdan was supposed to destroy him, an unfair expectation considering Abram's abilities. Marcel had to settle for the UNANIMOUS decision. The ref- an American- scored it for the Frenchman. The judges- Americans- scored for the Frenchman. This was on American soil. At MSG, where Abrams was popular(he'd fought there several times). If anyone stands to get "robbed" under these circumstances, it's Cerdan.

Ditto Raadik, who fought MC in HIS(Raadik's) hometown and lost UNANIMOUSLY.

[Surf-Bat]

Found it. It's from the Chicago Tribune, written by Charles Bartlett.

"Raadik was credited with only one round, the 10th..."

"Referee Davy Miller scored the fight 53 to 47 for Cerdan, while judges George Kenny and Dr. E A Frankel favored him by respective tabulations of 55 to 45 and 53 to 47"

There is no indication of there being a robbery or anything even remotely resembling it. Cerdan dominated throughout sans 10th round.