Here’s Looking At You, Casablanca: Marcel Cerdan by Mike Casey

[tedsares]

No middleweight in history wins a "lopsided" decision over Hagler. A win perhaps, but you'll have to explain how Marcel or anyone could win a lopsided decision over a prime Hagler.

Who are you directing the question to? Felt Forum? I say Monzon beats Hagler imn a close one and so does Cerdan, but we will never know will we? Call it close all the way.

[hawk5ins]

Of course there was always Jo Joe Guera!

HA!

But so he doesn't sail in that ship alone, there were other notables who did agree with his card. Mike Katz and Jeff Ryan from KO magazine to list two. Stan Hochman and Jim Murray were two others who had relatively wide cards in Ray's favor.

I didn't agree with them. But I did have Leonard winning by a couple of points.

Prime for Prime, I'd take Hagler over Marcel, but could see Cerdan pulling out a CLOSE win. It would not be my choice, but it would not be an outrageous choice.

Hawk

[Surf-Bat]

Who are you directing the question to? Felt Forum? I say Monzon beats Hagler imn a close one and so does Cerdan, but we will never know will we? Call it close all the way.

Hi Ted. That was directed at felt mainly, but i would challenge anyone who says Hags would lose lopsidedly to any middleweight champ in history.

I don't disagree with your predictions. Marcel and Carlos may indeed have beaten Marvin. But- as you stated- it would be close.

[Surf-Bat]

Of course there was always Jo Joe Guera!

HA!

But so he doesn't sail in that ship alone, there were other notables who did agree with his card. Mike Katz and Jeff Ryan from KO magazine to list two. Stan Hochman and Jim Murray were two others who had relatively wide cards in Ray's favor.

I didn't agree with them. But I did have Leonard winning by a couple of points.

Prime for Prime, I'd take Hagler over Marcel, but could see Cerdan pulling out a CLOSE win. It would not be my choice, but it would not be an outrageous choice.

Hawk

Remember that katz and murray also predicted a leonard win and were rooting for him all the way, so their agreeing with Guerra's card doesn't surprise me. Murrray even went so far as to say that SRL gave Hags a "sound thrashing". Humorous....

[mike casey]

I loved Hagler - I championed him in the Philly days of the 70s when he was being frustrated by Bobby (Boogaloo) Watts and Willie (The Worm) Monroe.

He matured into a wonderful world champion - but Monzon would have coldly hammered Marvin in a distane fight, and Cerdan - at his sublime best - would have taken them both.

[FeltForumFodder]

IIRC, I had Leonard-Hagler 9-3. But for purposes of this discussion it hardly reflects a prime Hagler.

Which raises the question: Which fight do we look to, to determine how a prime Hagler would fare against a boxer who could throw some nice combinations and who also has some nifty defensive skills?

The prime Hagler faced a division of cookie cutter duplicates, guys known more for their strength and durability rather than their skills. Not very big punchers, predictable, come straight at you, etc. Admirable contenders with a lot of heart, but not much to make you sit up and take notice.

Hamsho (not really "admirable," I always hated guy). Vito. Sibbo. Roldan.

Duran? That wasn't as close as the scorecards had it, but Marv still wasn't tangling with a legit middleweight. He was frustrated.

Yeah, there were other lessers along the way, but hardly anyone to put into a context of an "all-time" discussion.

The questions we asked ourselves going into the Hearns fight, about how Hagler would deal with a taller bomber as opposed to the usual type of opponents he had faced until then were legitimate. Marvin just answered those questions in such a decisive manner that we forgot all about them going into the Leonard fight.

I had picked Hagler over Leonard. The Hearns fight had answered all my questions. Bad call.

[Surf-Bat]

[QUOTE=FeltForumFodder]

"Not very big punchers"

You don't consider Hearns, Mugabi, Briscoe, Hart and Roldan to be big punchers?

[FeltForumFodder]

[QUOTE=Surf-Bat]

"Not very big punchers"

You don't consider Hearns, Mugabi, Briscoe, Hart and Roldan to be big punchers?

Of the people you mentioned, only Roldan was on my list. And no, not a particularly big puncher.

But since you asked (or, as seems to be done a lot on this forum, put words in my mouth), Hearns and Mugabi, yeah, but probably less-so at 160 lbs. Briscoe and Hart, not really.

I think 1976 may be a bit too early to start talking about a prime Hagler.

[tedsares]

Hagler, Cerdan and Monzon. WOW, That's no Hobson's choice. Upon refletion, I'd rate tham them Monzon, and a tie between Hagler and Cerdan, though Cerdan had more dimensions IMO.

[starlingstomp]

Got to disagree with you on that one Ted.

Cerdan seems me to be relatively one-dimensional/rigid in his approach.Very destructive, great workrate and talented offensively, yet not particularly versatile.Looks like he would be a lot less effective if backed up.

Ted's earlier Tyson comparison is a good one IMO, despite the two not looking too much alike stylistically.

Of course it's possible he displayed other tools during the many fights we don't have footage of.

[tedsares]

Got to disagree with you on that one Ted.

Cerdan seems me to be relatively one-dimensional/rigid in his approach.Very destructive, great workrate and talented offensively, yet not particularly versatile.Looks like he would be a lot less effective if backed up.

Ted's earlier Tyson comparison is a good one IMO, despite the two not looking too much alike stylistically.

Of course it's possible he displayed other tools during the many fights we don't have footage of.

Yep, That's a problem; namely, the lack of footage. I did some deep research into the Small-Roach fight which I witnessed as a youngster. It was my first viewing of a ring fatality. Roach had gone into that one terribly damaged by Cerdan in a prior fightw here he was slaughtered like a butcher does fresh meat, but prior to that slaughter Anton Raadikan, an Estonian who made his home in Chicago, dumped Marcel 3 times in the 10th round of a fight Marcel won by UD. Strange stuff. I used to watch Raadik fight in Marigold Gardens.

[Surf-Bat]

[QUOTE=FeltForumFodder]

Of the people you mentioned, only Roldan was on my list. And no, not a particularly big puncher.

But since you asked (or, as seems to be done a lot on this forum, put words in my mouth), Hearns and Mugabi, yeah, but probably less-so at 160 lbs. Briscoe and Hart, not really.

I think 1976 may be a bit too early to start talking about a prime Hagler.

So can you list for me 5 middleweight contenders in history whom you consider to be "big punchers"? I just want to get a frame of reference here.

[hawk5ins]

Katz did predict a Leonard victory, but with a week to go before the fight, switched his pick to Hagler after seeing some less than impressive sparring and workout sessions by Leonard.

Katz was actually a close friend of Hagler's so his rooting for Leonard, doesn't seem accurate. Hagler considered the Wolfman such a close friend that he invited him to his own wedding and was hurt when Katz initially came out with his SRL on Cuts prediction.

Mike was not rooting for Ray. But he did have an 8-3-1 card for Sugar. But it was Not agenda driven.

I too would like to see a List of What is considered a puncher at 160 if the fighters that Marvin faced were NOT punchers.

Here's praying that we don't have to relive the Valdez discussion though!

Hawk

[tedsares]

Hi Ted. That was directed at felt mainly, but i would challenge anyone who says Hags would lose lopsidedly to any middleweight champ in history.

I don't disagree with your predictions. Marcel and Carlos may indeed have beaten Marvin. But- as you stated- it would be close.

Thanks, Surf. How about Hearns, Nigel Benn, Julian Jackson, SRL, Gerald McClellan, Monzon and Pavlik as heavy handed guys? Even Jorge Castro, Tyrone Trice, Simon Brown, Michael Watson, Roy Jones, James Toney

[Surf-Bat]

Katz did predict a Leonard victory, but with a week to go before the fight, switched his pick to Hagler after seeing some less than impressive sparring and workout sessions by Leonard.

Katz was actually a close friend of Hagler's so his rooting for Leonard, doesn't seem accurate. Hagler considered the Wolfman such a close friend that he invited him to his own wedding and was hurt when Katz initially came out with his SRL on Cuts prediction.

Mike was not rooting for Ray. But he did have an 8-3-1 card for Sugar. But it was Not agenda driven.

I too would like to see a List of What is considered a puncher at 160 if the fighters that Marvin faced were NOT punchers.

Here's praying that we don't have to relive the Valdez discussion though!

Hawk

Did he? I didn't know that. I just remember on a tv show he was interviewed talking about SRL's victory as if it were inevitable. Kinda surprised me. He was in this almost dreamy state, saying stuff like "He says he can do it....he believes he can do it....therefore I know he can do it..." or words to that effect. He sounded like one of the Manson girls expounding upon the wonders of their leader. Now you bring this up. VERY difficult to process!

Murray I know firsthand about and wrote several letters to the LA Times regarding his boxing columns, which got weirder and weirder as he got older. Great writer and witty as all hell, but tended to see things through a skewed lens(the SRL/Hags fight was a "sound thrashing" and the Whitaker/Nelson decision in PW's favor was a "robbery". Go figure).

I agree with you. His puncher list will be interesting to say the least. Doubt we'll get an answer though.

[Surf-Bat]

Thanks, Surf. How about Hearns, Nigel Benn, Julian Jackson, SRL, Gerald McClellan, Monzon and Pavlik as heavy handed guys? Even Jorge Castro, Tyrone Trice, Simon Brown, Michael Watson, Roy Jones, James Toney

Hi Ted-

Most of the guys you mentioned are champs. I wanted to see what contenders would make his "big punchers" list. If Briscoe, Hart, Mugabi, Hearns and Roldan do not count as big punchers, I'm really curious to see what constitutes one on FeltFoFo's list.

[walshb]

I have to agree with the consensus here; Hagler may lose to several middles, but by god he gives them all a fierce battle, peak Hagler I mean; not the novice who stuttered around chasing Ray Leonard.

[tedsares]

I have to agree with the consensus here; Hagler may lose to several middles, but by god he gives them all a fierce battle, peak Hagler I mean; not the novice who stuttered around chasing Ray Leonard.

HAHAHAHAHA. You opened the door on that last clause to wit:"...the novice who stuttered around chasing Ray Leonard." I kind of agree with you, however, in that he had no asnwer for SRL' 30 second strategy, nor did he have any back up plan nor did he make any adjustments. SRL had him well scoped and beat him plain and simple. I also think Mugabi took a lot out of him. Going 11 rounds with a prime Beast has to be a trying.

[mike casey]

Walshie/Surf,

Ask Ted about Eduardo Lausse - the big hitter from Argentina. And yes, Cyclone Hart was a terrific hitter - I remember him vividly.

[hawk5ins]

So I got all the NY and Boston papers at the time.

Katz made a switch about a week prior to the fight.

Marvin took the pick agianst him very personally. And the late switch did nothing to ease the hurt Marvin felt. Apparently it took Years for Marvin to forgive him.

BTW, on that invite to Marv's wedding? Katz actually did not go as it was scheduled at the same time as Duran Leonard I and The Wolfman was covering the fight for the paper.

Maybe the pick of Leonard was the last slight Marv was going to take!

Hawk

[tedsares]

Eduardo Lausse was something else. I give him some space in my next book. Cyclone could bury the bricks, no doubt. But Lausse would bea perfect example of what Surf is talkng about here. He beat up guys like the Stock Market is beating me up. Badly.

[mike casey]

Agreed, Ted - and Lausse got a wide decision over that more famous 'Cyclone' - Gene Fullmer - at MSG in '55, decking Gene in the process. No mean feat, as we both know.

[tedsares]

HAHAHAHAHA. You opened the door on that last clause to wit:"...the novice who stuttered around chasing Ray Leonard." I kind of agree with you, however, in that he had no asnwer for SRL' 30 second strategy, nor did he have any back up plan nor did he make any adjustments. SRL had him well scoped and beat him plain and simple. I also think Mugabi took a lot out of him. Going 11 rounds with a prime Beast has to be a trying.

Walsb, some Hagler tivia FYI.

Hagler and his wife, Kay, live about two miles away from my place up here in NH. He lives in Bartlett and I run into him and talk with him all the time, but one thing you tend not to do is discuss the Leonard fight. I sense he is very sensitive and unforgiving about certain things. Up here in the town, he is just another regular guy and the locals like him a lot. Good guy to have a drink with.

He may also have a home in the Milan suburbs. I don't really know. He also has one in Brockton.

[tedsares]

Agreed, Ted - and Lausse got a wide decision over that more famous 'Cyclone' - Gene Fullmer - at MSG in '55, decking Gene in the process. No mean feat, as we both know.

Mike, this is from Martin Cameron in the Septemebr, 2004 WAIL:

"EDUARDO LAUSSE – (“K.O.”, “Zurdo”, Left-handed) Born in Buenos Aires, Argentina, on November 8, 1927. Middleweight champion of Argentina (1953-56) and South America (1956). Characterized by his great dynamism and the velocity of his fists, his stubbornness and invincible courage, as well as a mighty left -- rapid and unfailing like the famous hand of the legendary Carattoli -- he realized a memorable campaign in his country and in the United States, and on account of the fact that he was so dangerous, he was unable to fight for a world championship, as he met more obstacles in the bureaucracy than in the ring. He became demoralized, and after every fight the conditions to the top became more steep, and he retired. Among his most important triumphs are Kid Cachetada (twice on points), Rafael Miranda (KO 6 and KO 1), the Peruvian champion Antonio Frontado (KO 7), Mario Díaz (KO 4), Jimmy Beau (KO 2 and KO 1), the Chilean champion Humberto Loayza (twice by KO in 3), Jesse Turner (Points 10), Chico Varona (KO 7), Joe Rindone (KO 2), the Brazilian champion Nelson de Andrade (KO 9), Gil Edwards (KO 5), George Small (KO 4), the exceptional Ralph “Tiger” Jones (Points 10 in a bloody and dramatic combat), the former world champion Kid Gavilán (Points 12); Gene Fullmer, who shortly afterward was world champion (Points 10), and the British champion Johnny Sullivan (TKO 5), Andrés Selpa (Points 10) and Víctor Zalazar (KO 8). His career, from 1947 to 1960, total bouts: 91, won: 78 (KO’s: 65; of them, 18 in the first round), lost: 10, drew: 3. Between 1952-54 he scored 18 consecutive wins by K.O."

[mike casey]

I know Martin well, Ted - great stuff - thanks for the reminder.

[Monte Cox]

How can you say anyone hit too hard for Hagler? Marvin had close to 70 pro fights and was never really down in his career (one official kd and it was bogus). Hagler fought 3 destroyers, Thomas Hearns, John "the Beast" Mugabi and Cyclone Hart and none of them could put him down and no one questions their power. Hagler had one of the best chins in boxing history. If Hearns, Mugabi, and Hart did not hit too hard for him how can anyone say Cerdan did?

Who is the guy on Cerdan's record that justifies him being a big puncher? Cerdan's ko percentage is 56% and 90% of his competition was relatively unknown European fighters who no one has seen much film of. "Quality fighters" does not equal Marvin Hagler. Cerdan is hard to rate because of his less than stellar competition overall.

[jim glen]

Monte are these fighters not worth more credit... after all this was Boxing's greatest period (overall), and best for MW's, the comp from Boxing's 'leading' nations has been rarely better.

if these men aren't enough for you, then I don't know what it takes to be a good & great fighter... these men were all Top Contenders and/or World title material, the rest fringe contenders; remember there was only 1 world champion, a world at WAR, it was impossible to pit these guys constantly one against the other, especially with the War and lets not forget Boxing politics & protrection.

and lastly this was "the single greatest period in Boxing History" especially for middleweights, these lads were the stuff, True champions & contenders were made of...

1949-06-16 Jake LaMotta Detroit, USA L TKO 10
1949-05-08 Lucien Krawczyk Casablanca, Morocco W KO 4
1949-03-29 Dick Turpin Kensington, United Kingdo W KO 7
1948-09-21 Tony Zale Jersey City, USA W RTD 11
1948-07-10 Cyrille Delannoit Brussels, Belgium W PTS 15
EBU (European) Middleweight Title

1948-05-23 Cyrille Delannoit Brussels, Belgium L PTS 15
EBU (European) Middleweight Title

1948-03-25 Lucien Krawczyk Paris, France W PTS 10
1948-03-12 Laverne Roach New York City, USA W TKO 8
1948-02-09 Jean Walzack Paris, France W KO 4
EBU (European) Middleweight Title
French Middleweight Title

1947-10-31 Anton Raadik Chicago, USA W UD 10

1947-03-28 Harold Green New York City, USA W TKO 2
1947-02-11 Bert Gilroy Marylebone, United Kingdo W KO 4
1946-12-06 Georgie Abrams New York City, USA W UD 10
1946-07-07 Holman Williams Paris, France W PTS 10
1946-05-25 Robert Charron Paris, France W PTS 12
French Middleweight Title

1946-01-18 Edouard Tenet Paris, France W PTS 12
French Middleweight Title

1945-06-24 Edouard Tenet Croix-de-Berny, France W PTS 10
1943-09-12 Omar Kouidri Algiers, Algeria W PTS 10
1939-06-18 Cleto Locatelli Marseilles, France W PTS 10

[mike casey]

Agreed, Jim. Well said.

Give Monte credit, though - he argued a very convincing case for Sonny Liston not being butchered by Pone Kingpetch.

[Surf-Bat]

And both Williams and Abrams are considered by many to be 2 of the finest middleweight contenders EVER.

[Monte Cox]

Monte are these fighters not worth more credit??

-Lucien Krawczyk career record 11-9 stopped 5 times and had 2 ko's. Wonder if Hagler would beat him?

-Dick Turpin lost his last fight and was ko'd 5 times before he fought Cerdan and was 7-6 after losing to Cerdan. I wonder how much credit Hagler would get for this kind of oppisition?

-Laverne Roach career record 26-5

-Jean Walzack 6 losses prior to Cerdan and ended up with 19 losses.

-Anton Raadik career record 37-25, at least hes over .500 I guess.

-Harold Green was stopped by Graziano 2 years previous and was also stopped in 1 round by Johnny Greco.

Edward Tenet career record 66-25. He'd lost over 20 times by the time Cerdan fought him.

Holman Williams was a great fighter but he fought him at the end of his career Williams lost 9 of his last 16 fights.

One of the better guys he fought was Cyrille Delannoit his career record was 59-16, and he split with Cerdan. His ko percentage was 27%. How do we know how good this guy was? Willie Wimms who had 2 pro fights beat him.

And there are guys on here who argue about Bernard Hopkins opposition. His opponents look like murderers row compared to these Euros.

How about these great European fighters.

-Giovanni Manca 2-2-2 when they fought, career record 9-20. Cerdan had over 100 fights while meeting such callow opposition.

-Leon Fouquet 2-0-1. Cerdan was 98-2.

-Victor Buttin made his pro debut against 68-1 Cerdan and beat him by DQ.

-Joe Burn career record 4-12, 2-6-2 when he fought Cerdan who was 93-2.

-Jose Ferrer 6-14, fought Cerdan in his 2nd pro fight. Cerdan was 92-2.

Bernard Hopkins would have lost his license if he signed to fight these guys.