New Jack Dempsey Bout found

[Mike DeLisa]

Here is a big one guys --

Jack Dempsey's record has for years shown a series of 1-round kayos in early 1919. I had never really given much thought to these until I came across a clip provied to me by top researcher Jack Kincaid.

In Kincaid's Dempsey file, I read of the Jim Hickey fight. It seems those early 1919 bouts were part of a barnstorming tour whereby Dempsey offered $1000 to anyone who could stay three rouns with him.

Only a few guys got into the ring with Dempsey. On the nights that no challenger stepped forward, Dempsey exhibited with his sparring partners (ie Terry Kellar).

Well, it occured to me that perhaps a bout or two might have been overlooked during this barnstorming tour, so I set out to review day by day the papers from January 1919. Kincaid had focused on the NY papers so I looked to papers outside NY.

In the Bridgeport paper for January 16 my hunch paid off! A new Dempsey bout!! Seems Dempsey started his "worldwide" tour at a theater in Trenton New Jersey. Dempsey scored a one-round kayo over Jim Maguire. Here are the clips I found:






This kayo also adds to Dempsey's record, moving him up a notch on the 1-round kayo list:

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/cbzfo...ead.php?t=1454

On Jan 25 Dempsey pulled out of the tour in anticpation of signing for a Feb 10 "Title fight" with Billy Miske. When that bout fell through, Dempsey returned to his barnstorming, finally signing to meet Willard.

In due course this will be added to Dempsey's record on the CBZ and will be included in or forthcoming Encyclopedia with Bert Sugar (June 2007, Lyons Press)

[Roberto Aqui]

Was that a legit fight though? Sounds like his opponent was more a toughman contestant than fighter. Of course the line gets a little blurry with many fights against the obscure names on any period fighter's record of the day.

I thought Dempsey did the same thing after retirement with his 100 4rd exhibition tour across America in the mid 30s, but those bouts were not counted on his record even though one was a loss to a legit period heavy, King Levinsky.

[mike]

seems more of an exhibition.

[mike]

in fact--all those fights on that tour --should be exhitions--because none --maybe one--actuall had a pro fight before that appearance with dempsey..from 31-32 --all those fellows were pros--except for one or two--all could be found on box rec--what do you guys think???

[Mike DeLisa]

The fights on the barnstorming tour have been accepted by historians as valid bouts for Dempsey.

These were real fights -- all of the guys who opposed him were low-level pros after the $1000. The $1000 posting was real and that edges it over the top. Look in Boxrec and you will see each is notated as "barnstorming tour" -- I think no other than Luckett Davis added that note.

So, in sum, the tou of 1919 resulted in actual bouts according to most researchers and I agree. So the CBZ will be adding this new bout.

[BDeskins]

Well, the guys that were fought on barnstorming tours are no worse than most of the daisies that modern heavyweights today fill they records up with, and the modern heavyweights get to count those bouts against the weakest of opponents, so why shouldn't Dempsey and others be able to count the same kind.

Any bout where money is offered, or exchanged is considered a legit, professional bout regardless of how qualified the opposition is!

[mike]

got the point guys.anyhow --on the 31 tour all were pros also and maybe some where kos and kndowns were scored--they were not just sparring sessions and soderman researched that often dempsey helped his opponents after a knock down and often held his hand in variuos bouts ,once he showed who was boss---because as you know--had anyone of the pros knocked dempsey down--instant fame--and dempsey spoke of this in sodermans article for ibro "the second coming of dempsey" something to that effect--dan has the article--very well researched by soderman--as usual.

[rocky111]

Its got to be counted, for if Dempsey got koed, Im sure it would have been big news. There was "prize" money involved also. Wow the researchers never fail to amaze!

[brutu]

Any fight footage of Jack Dempsey's less then one round knock out of Fred Fulton surface yet?
They fight was so short Im surprised in has not yet turned up in a film vault somewhere in France or South America on one of those old news-reels that they use to show in movie houses.

[mike casey]

Well done, Mike DeLisa. Chalk another one up for the Mauler!

[bomma]

Congrats Mike! Good job, guys like you keep the sports alive.

[gregbeyer]

these articles together seem not to jibe. one says mcguire was 200lbs and 6 foot. the other said he towered over dempsey...who was 6'1''.
greg

[bodyblow]

These bouts were exhibitions and advertised as such, they should not go on Dempseys professional record.

[Mike DeLisa]

They absolutely wre NOT advertised as exhibitions. Certain nights on the tour Dempsey did fight exhibitions, but these were fights as described above. They have appeared on Dempsey's record since it was compiled.

There are good arguments as to why it should not be included -- Luckett Davis would not include it for example -- but that has nothing to do with how they were advertised or treated by record keepers until today.

If you want to explain why they should not be included, fine, since that is the reason I am posting this stuff here rather than just printing on the CBZ's records or our upcoming 2007 Encyclopedia -- it is sort of a peer review.

[BDeskins]

Well, as I stated before...any fight where a prize of money is on the table it is to be considered a professional bout. No money is offered for a win in exhibitions and no money is awarded in amateur bouts! The bout certainly should go into his record!!!

If the disagreement is because of quality of opponent then I would tell the person making such a claim to look at the records of all heavyweights from history and look at the competition that all heavyweights faced at one time, or another which is considered professional...hell today's heavyweights have records absoultely loaded with flourists and fast-food workers and the heavyweights of today count those bouts in they're record...why should it be any different for Dempsey...especially when there is proof that verifies it.

[mike casey]

Agreed - end of argument.

[bodyblow]

Money is awarded to fighters in boxing booth bouts but nobody includes those in professional records and rightly so. Case closed end of argument. The fact is that this tour was billed as an exhibition tour with the bouts being engaged in as exhibition bouts for the purpose of keeping Dempsey busy while the Willard fight was arranged.

[mike]

i have the highest respect to all-- do to the money exchanged it should be included--but to be consisederd with the fast food fighters others have fought--so long as dempsey or tohers didnt feast on guys like that- its ok here. ill just give dempsey more credit years later for beating up on wright,roper,crthister,retzalff and allthose younger pros--but the gloves were usually 10 or above.

[werewolf]

these articles together seem not to jibe. one says mcguire was 200lbs and 6 foot. the other said he towered over dempsey...who was 6'1''.
greg

Yes, that is perplexing. Perhaps the first article was in error, intending to state "6 foot 6" or "well over 6 feet"...? It's a bit late in the day to solve this conundrum, though, almost 88 years having ellapsed.

[Mike DeLisa]

Bodyblow -- please post your evidence that these were billed as "exhibtions"

[BDeskins]

>>>please post your evidence that these were billed as "exhibtions"<<<

That's what I would like to see!!!

[Evrenb]

Interesting debate here. I am not erring on either side. I may be somewhat naive to this era but wouldnt a legit bout be a sanctioned bout by thats state or national commission? If not the line between booth/exhibition/pro fight might become a grey area.
Evren

[Mike DeLisa]

In 1918 the Hurley Law legalized boxing matches to ND up to 8 rounds. No commission sanction was needed.

Dempsey offered $1000 to anyone who could go three rounds with him -- no decision would be issued because none was authorized. Several "fighters" accepted the challenge. Other nights he fought "exhibition" bouts.

He pulled out of the tour after claiming a sprained ankle, but really was negotiating to sign for a Feb 10 bout with Billy Miske for the title, which assumed Willard had retired. On Feb 9, Willard and Dempsey signed to fight at sometime after May 26, 1919, when Ohio was to go dry (little thing like the Volstead Act, remember).

Here is what I ahve right now for Dempsey for 1919

1919
--- Dempsey Tours with a musical review

Jan 16 Jack McGuire Trenton, NJ KO 1
20 Jan Big Jack Hickey Harrisburg, PA KO 1
23 Jan Kid Harris Reading, PA KO 1
29 Jan Kid Henry Easton, PA KO 1
Feb 10 Signs to fight Willard
13 Feb Eddie Smith Altoona, PA KO 1
Feb 15 Opponent x2 York, PA Exh
Feb 23 -- "The AMericas", wash dc
1 Mar Terry Kellar Washington, DC Exh 3
(Benefit for Walter Reed Hospital)
2 Apr Tony Drake New Haven, CT KO 1
Apr Terry Kellar Detroit, MI Exh 6
4 Jul Jess Willard Toledo, OH TKO 3
(Won World Heavyweight Title)
24 Aug One-Round Harrison St. Louis, MO Exh 4

[bodyblow]

Funny, I seem to remember a couple of years ago a guy was on this forum with pretty rock solid proof that Mickey Walkers record was incorrect and that his final bout of 1919 should not be a win but a KO loss in Philadelphia. He even quoted the newspaper article of the fight when no one else could quote an article of Walkers win yet hardly a single person on here accepted it and it has yet to be entered correctly into his record on here. They all said, your the one bringing new bouts to an old, established record, prove it. So I now someone is trying to enter Dempseys Exhibition KOs into an old established from a year when everyone was watching Dempsey and no record keepers entered those bouts, not even Dempsey, YET I NEED TO PROVE IT??? This smacks just a bit as hero worship if not favoritism toward these fighters. I remember back in the sixties when a similar situation occured and some young would-be record keepers lobbied Ring Magazine trying to get Dempsey's later exhibition KOs from the late 20s and early 30s entered into his record as legit bouts. This idea was thankfully vetoed by more knowledgeable well established historians. I can only hope that same wisdom will prevail here.

[Mike DeLisa]

These bouts of Dempsey's have been included in his record since at least 1919. Every edition of the RING Record Book that I have (including Herb Goldman's well-respected edition of 1986-1987) includes them as actual fights. What I did was find the first bout of a series of bouts Dempsey fought in 1919. That fight has been overlooked for 87 years.

Beyond that, I don't mind arguments against this being called an exhibition -- Luckett Davis for one would NOT include the bout -- but if you are going to object by stating they were "advertised as exhibitions" that begs for proof since we have reviewed the newspapers and find that to be untrue.

You dont NEED to prove anything to me. I have another month or two to make up my mind on the early 1919 fights before the Encyclopedia I am writing with Bert Sugar goes to press for June publication (Lyon's Press). Thisforum is meant as a sort of peer review for such items.


As far as my status as a researcher I make no claims whatsoever -- my work speaks for itself.

[raylawpc]

Mike - are you including exhibitions listed as such in the record book? If so, I have uncovered a number of Jim Jeffries exhibition bouts.

[PeteLeo]

If I remember correctly, the Walker situation was markedly different because there already was confirmation of Mickey's having fought in another city on the same day his alleged KO loss took place. And this first bout (a win) had been listed in his record from the very night that it took place.
Personally, I have no opinion on this supposed "new" Dempsey win (not that my opinion would make a flea's ass of difference, in any case). If there is some proof available that the event was advertised as an exhibition prior to its occurring, that would settle the matter in my view. If no such proof exists, no matter how inexperienced Jack's opponent might have been, a fight is a fight. Champion Patterson fought Rademacher in Pete's first bout, after all. PeteLeo.

[Mike DeLisa]

raylawpc -- I am not including exhibitions in the book with Bert because os size limitations -- we have approx. 2000 boxers listed.

But, I am working on a heavyweight-only book where I will print exhibitons and other details for all heavyweight champs and certain contenders. Check out or example our Dempsey Record -- http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/dempsey.htm

and the Jeffries record (mstly by Tracy Callis)
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jeffries.htm

I will also be including, where possible amateur bouts -- when including amateur and exhibitions, for example, my Ali record runs like 13 pages!

Joe Louis, likewise ahs over 100 exhibitions and most of his amateur bouts.

Simply stated, if you have anything to add, I'd love to share reserach.

Also, and this goes for ANY fighter, if anyone on this board has a particiular fighter they want to see -- or want to see my draft record prior to publication, please email me and I will send my record and notes for that fighter.

For members of IBRO, note I already printed the Joe Louis record in IBRO and will be submitting the Ali record for the issue after December.

[Mike DeLisa]

PS there are a few more exhibitions for Dempsey I left out of above --

1919
Apr 4 John Lester Johnson Schenectady, NY EX 4
Apr 7 Battling Hickey Syracuse, NY EX KO 1
Apr 7 Spike Sullivan Syracuse, NY EX KO 1

and I have identified the boxers he fought on Sep 4, 1931:

1931
Sep 4...Jimmy Byrnes.....Eugene, OR...Exh 4
Sep 4...Jack Baxter..... Eugene, OR... Exh 1
Sep 4...Henry Glanz..... Eugene, OR... Exh 1

[bodyblow]

Actually PeteLeo, as I recall the person who notified the board of Walkers loss posted that Walkers win, given in his record as being on the same day, was NOT backed up by either of the Newark papers. The loss was supported by more than one Philadelphia paper. In addition to that no one ever replied with any account of Walker having fought and won a bout on that date ANYWHERE. I watched that thread closely and its a shame it no longer exists after the board crashed some time ago. It had some good information and I dont think that poster is around anymore.