Razor Ruddock v Maskaev/Klitschko/Valuev/Briggs

[Overhand_Right]

Not on the same night obviously, but how does Ruddock at his best, 1988-92 fair against our current crop of heavies?

In his day Ruddock had Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Bowe, and Foreman to contend with (not to mention Moorer, Mercer, Morrison, Holmes, Bruno, Cooper et al).

But now he would have-

Oleg Maskaev WBC

Wlad Klitschko IBF

Nicolay Valuev WBA

(worth mentiong?) Shannon Briggs WBO

Bearing in mind in Ruddocks day the WBO didn't even merit a serious mention.

Can Razor slice up any of em? Or do they all walk over this one-dimensional Jamaican puncher?

[hawk5ins]

What's weird about this question (to me at least), is does the answer somehow supposedly legitimize any of the "winners"?

Your description of Rudduck, IMO was spot on. A One dimensional Puncher. Should he defeat the entire lot here, he doesn't automatically become legitimized.

Conversely, if one were to select any of the NRFPTP'ers over Rudduck, they too IMO do not become legitimized.

I think the matchups you selected were probably in the ball park with whom these guys should be paired off with in a "fantasy" matchup. The thing is, I just don't alter my opinion on ANY of the fighters if they ever did defeat one another.

Elimination bouts. Pairing them up agianst one another would Eliminate BOTH of them!

Hawk

[kenmore]

Ruddock definitely would beat Valuev, Maskaev, and Briggs. I would call Klitschko-Ruddock a pick 'em fight.

Vlad probably wins if he is able to fight up to the best of his ability, but Ruddock wins if Vlad is off in any way, even slightly off. Klitschko would have to be technically flawless in this bout because he could not afford to get hit by Ruddock's powershots. Ruddock could end the bout with one punch.

[Kid Achilles]

I think Vitali Klitschko would do to Ruddock what he did to Danny Williams (except Ruddock wasn't as skilled as Williams) but then again Vitali isn't active so he doesn't really count. It's a shame the best heavyweight in the world is is no longer active.

[hagler04]

Ruddock was definetely better than Danny Williams . . much bigger puncher, in much better condition, more natural talent. He would give Vitali a very tough matchup (much tougher than the whale Williams) although I do believe the elder Klit wins that one.

Younger Klit . . . .Ruddock was a much better and quicker puncher than Peter. He didn't have the boxing skills to compete with Wlad, but it wouldn't matter b/c he would land something on Wlad sometime in the fight and Wlad would not make it out of that round. Wladimir is no Lennox . . .

I think he knocks out Oleg too . .. . . I still haven't forgotten those fights with Whitaker and Johnson.

Briggs-Ruddock would be a helluva fight while it lasted. I have to go with Razor who was much more durable at his best and hit harder too.

[GorDoom]

As limited & one dimensional as Razor was I think he takes them all out. He had the power & was a warrior unafraid to get in the trenches (that eliminates Wlad altogether) - not to mention the Tyson fights proved he had a helluva chin.

By the time he fought Morrison he wasn't the same fighter as in the early 90's. But in his prime, while still a 2nd tier heavy, in a rich era for them he had enough of the right stuff to take all these pretenders out.

GorDoom

[robertk]

Disagree.

I just don't like that ruddock defense and never have. He's wide open and would be even moreso against taller opponents. When he jabs he drops both hands. He dips way over to the side to throw the hook. He brings his arms back slow > punching. To say Ruddock telegraphed his punches is an understatement--everyone in the arena knew exactly what he was going to do. His gastank gets empty after about 5 big punches and he has to take a breather in there. If the opponent lets him fight 20 seconds per round, he can go the distance. He lulls guys to sleep and then explodes with the big shots.

I never ever thought he was a big guy for ringsmarts. Didn't ever have a strong corner and went through a ton of managers. I just think a guy like Ruddock is not going to beat 4 decent fighters in a row. He'll lose a bout for everyone he wins & at the championship level that competition is just going to be to stiff for the guy.

He was supposed to fight Vitali an a WBO defense when he pulled out a week before the fight w/ a groin infection & Byrd stepped in. Interestingly, lots of folks liked ruddock's chances back then.

[kenmore]

As limited & one dimensional as Razor was I think he takes them all out. He had the power & was a warrior unafraid to get in the trenches (that eliminates Wlad altogether)...
GorDoom

You have a point there, I'll grant you that. If Vlad vs. Ruddock goes to the trenches, Ruddock wins big.

But isn't also true that Klitschko -- if he fights his best -- is technically superior to Ruddock, and that he could conceivably dominate Ruddock all night from long range? In this scenario, Ruddock can't land any bombs on Vlad's shaky chin, and Klitschko controls the fight methodically but effectively, winning handily.

What do you think?

[hagler04]

You have a point there, I'll grant you that. If Vlad vs. Ruddock goes to the trenches, Ruddock wins big.

But isn't also true that Klitschko -- if he fights his best -- is technically superior to Ruddock, and that he could conceivably dominate Ruddock all night from long range? In this scenario, Ruddock can't land any bombs on Vlad's shaky chin, and Klitschko controls the fight methodically but effectively, winning handily.

What do you think?

I don't see Wlad able to keep Ruddock at range for 12 as he could a guy like Peter who was completely gassed by the middle rounds ( and which he actually failed to do, hence the knockdowns).

Robert has a valid point. Ruddock was very sloppy on defense. Come to think of it he didn't really have a defense. I also never understood why, after the Weaver fight, Ruddock simply abandoned the left jab . . . threw it sparingly to say the least, and he had a very stiff quick left when he chose to throw it. I suppose he wanted to keep his left at 'full power capacity' for his left uppercut, but for him to fight 19 rounds with 5'10 Tyson and not to use the left jab was one of the (stupidest) fight plans I've ever seen a fighter implement.

That being said, he did show in the Tyson fights and vs Bonecrusher he was a tough mother and that he could go through a long tough fight and still be throwing bombs in the late rounds. That alone puts him at top standing among the HWs today.

Masgaev seems to be able to do that vs Rahman but any other top fighter he gets knocked out. I see Ruddock as a much more natural and explosive hitter than Hasim and I don't see Oleg surviving one of his bombs. Briggs has the stamina of a lame old horse, and Wlad's punch resistance is so poor I don't see him making it out of there standing up.

[JaKob]

I'd say wlad picks ruddock to pieces from the outside. Ruddock was too one dimensional, easy to find in the ring and ponderous..... Wlad by KO in 8. Be interesting to see how Lyle would fair in the same matchups.

[GorDoom]

If Tyson couldn't KO him & he hit him with some thunderous shots how the hell is Wlad gonna KO him in 8? The moment anybody puts pressure Klit he cringes.

& Razor was a pressure fighter.

Yes, Klit has some boxing skills but they are not as good as some think. All his punches are on the same plane. Easy to time & counter. He fights in the European, stand up, one two mode ... Only he really doesn't do that. In his last fight he waited cautiuosly 4 rounds (!) before throwing the right with any real intention. & I don't think he even knows what a left hook or uppercut is.

If that guy could make him cautious just what the hell do you think Razor would have done to him mentally? If he collapses against a mope like Brewster how does he handle a real warrior like Ruddock?

& think about how bad this sitch really is: We are debating how he would do against one of the 2nd tier heavies of the 90's. Nobody is even bothering to assume how he's do against the 1st liners.

For instance, Holyfield, Tyson or Bowe in their primes would have probably been arrested for manslaughter if they fought Lil' Klit.

GorDoom

[Sharkey]

what does Tyson punching up and smothered have to do with Wlad?

How about the other guy who bashed Rudock from long range... that 6'5 Lewis guy who seemingly couldn't handle pressure.


This is not to pick Wlad... but Tyson-Wlad is a poor analogy in my mind.

In fact I will pick Wlad. If a slo-mo Bonecrusher can jar his bell.. Wlad will take his head off. IF Wlad is not too afraid to commit to the punch.

Not that I am picking Wlad.

Wait... yeah Wlad.. I think.. hmm.

[GorDoom]

Shark:

I was talking about Razor's chin in his prime. Look, I'm hardly a big Ruddock fan so it's weird to find myself defending him, BUT ... Rewatch the Tyson fights he hit Razor with some murderous punches especially early. Yes the last half of the 2nd fight was a lot of clutch & grab but the first fight & the early part of the 2nd fight were not.

Tyson despite being smaller hits a lot harder that Klit. His speed & torque was what made him special for a time. I can't ever remember Klit coming out & just putting a guy away with just one shot.

& what does Lewis stopping Ruddock have to do with anything? Your not comparing Klit to him are you? By the time Razor fought Lewis he was rich, fat & a party animal that was unmotivated & no longer close too what he had been.

He was never the same after the 2nd Tyson fight. & if I'm remembering correctly he went the last few rounds with a broken jaw.

Razor gets inside & Klit falls apart. No way he can keep him at a distance for 12 rounds. Even a ponderous oaf like Peter got to him. & Razor was FAR superior to Peter.

Lil' Klit simply doesn't have the right stuff. How many times do you guys have to have it proven to you? Unless you all have lyin' eyes the evidence has been right in front of everybody, the good & the PATHETIC for a few years now.

Lastly, I don't hate Klit. From what I percieve he's a solid citizen, a smart guy & a good & decent person - but he's not a good fighter unless his comp is running scared. I really believe the reason he became a fighter was because his older sibling did.

It's not uncommon for younger brothers to want to follow in their big brothers footsteps. But this step was boxing not being a docter, lawyer or Indian chief. Big Klit for all his major deficiencies proved his stones in the trenches. Lil' Klit never has & I guarantee you he never will.

Unlike his brother he does not relish combat. He's not willing to leave it all in the ring like Big Klit proved in the Lewis fight. I really believe that if it wasn't for his brother Wlad never would have become a fighter.

GorDoom

[Kid Achilles]

Wladimir took Brock out with one shot, and it was a beauty. Now Brock is no great fighter but he's a solid contender and was undefeated without a loss, let alone a stoppage one, when Wlad demolished him with a single right hand.

As for Razor being superior to Peter, I'm not sure. Ruddock was a better athlete but Peter's chin is concrete, better than Ruddock's for sure, and his hands were a bit heavier than Ruddocks. Peter can hurt a guy just by connecting, doesn't even have to be good shot with a lot of velocity to it. He is so strong, like an old fat Foreman, that he can hurt these guys with shots that look like kiddy stuff. I really think Peter is at least as good as Rudduck and you know, without the illegal knockdowns due to rabbit punches, Wlad won that fight pretty handily despite getting legitimately floored by a fair punch in the later rounds.

Wlad's heart is for real IMO. His chin is shakey, and he freezes up when hit by a big puncher instead of clinching or moving. Did anyone call Norton a coward for doing the same? Is Wlad a great fighter? Hasn't done enough to show it yet, and he has a lot of catching up to do to even be one of the "great" fighters of his own era. Is he a good fighter? Yes, very good I think. Clearly the best of the heavyweights the world now, but we won't know for sure until a few years from now. I think in Steward he's finally found his Blackburn or Goldman to allow him to tap into his potential. He's getting better with every fight but still has some kinks to work out. I think we've not seen Wlad at his best yet.

[PeteLeo]

For me, Klitschko's best quick demolition of a decent opponent was the Paea Wolfgramm match. This was a true "Jason Voorhees" performance against a big, strong, experienced, and apparently durable man in Wolfgramm. Of course, Wlad's a lot more cautious and studied now, following the Sanders and Brewster eye-openers. PeteLeo.

[robertk]

That Wolfgramm match is/was one of my favorite ko's. I love those slow-mo replays german tv uses & especially when a big guy goes face first. That shot drove a silver medalist into retirement. I'm still not sure if his nose was broke with a punch or if it came from the canvas.

Wladimir did some job on germany's favorite guy Axel Schulz years ago. A real paint job and there sure weren't too many guys cheering for him. The Jefferson bout as well & lots of folks picked Jefferson to win via ko.

I think wlad has overcome some adversity in recent bouts that you simply don't see w/ other heavyweights anymore. It has become a division of front runners and not many guys are going to win a bout when they're on the deck 3 times. Or, come back from a bad cut like he had against Brock. Most of these guys in recent times get a bad cut or busted up, they lose. They don't get their composure and bear down & take the opponent out within 2 rounds. To me, overcoming those types of obsticles are things only the pretty good fighters do & it's a factor & helps to compensate for the whiskers.

If you take a guy like Ruddock and lets say he has a real bad cut in the 6th round against a good opponent, what happens?

[Sharkey]

Shark:

I was talking about Razor's chin in his prime. Look, I'm hardly a big Ruddock fan so it's weird to find myself defending him, BUT ... Rewatch the Tyson fights he hit Razor with some murderous punches especially early. Yes the last half of the 2nd fight was a lot of clutch & grab but the first fight & the early part of the 2nd fight were not.

Tyson despite being smaller hits a lot harder that Klit. His speed & torque was what made him special for a time. I can't ever remember Klit coming out & just putting a guy away with just one shot.

& what does Lewis stopping Ruddock have to do with anything? Your not comparing Klit to him are you? By the time Razor fought Lewis he was rich, fat & a party animal that was unmotivated & no longer close too what he had been.

He was never the same after the 2nd Tyson fight. & if I'm remembering correctly he went the last few rounds with a broken jaw.

Razor gets inside & Klit falls apart. No way he can keep him at a distance for 12 rounds. Even a ponderous oaf like Peter got to him. & Razor was FAR superior to Peter.



GorDoom

I am comparing the odd anology to another one.

You seem to remember a much different Ruddock than I do. I saw one who didn't bother to box and survived against Tyson because Mike jabbed exactly -3 times.

anyway.

[kenmore]

I think in Steward he's finally found his Blackburn or Goldman to allow him to tap into his potential. He's getting better with every fight but still has some kinks to work out. I think we've not seen Wlad at his best yet.

Manny wasn't happy with Vlad's performance against Brock...he regarded it as subpar. Stewart's grim facial expression during and after the fight were noteworthy, and he even made some critical remarks about Vlad after the bout.

But still, even in spite of fighting subpar, Klitschko was never in trouble in the fight, always safely ahead on cards, and he closed the show in devastating fashion. Considering that Brock is a top contender, this says something favorable about Klitschko...regardless of his obvious shortcomings.

Klitschko vs. Ruddock, assuming each guy is at his best, is a fight I would not want to bet on. It could go either way.

[Kid Achilles]

Ruddock beats Briggs and Maskaev for sure. Valuev is a maybe, and with Klit he only has a puncher's chance. I don't think he could take that kind of power and accuracy from a taller man. Wlad would bang him out like Lewis did.

[hagler04]

I don't see Wlad getting better with each fight at all. Brock would have been a gatekeeper at best in the early 1990s . . .I don't care if he was undefeated he should be no-where near winning a major athletic championship . . .he's slow, not very skilled, and has amateurish footwork.

I have yet to see Wlad look as good as he did vs Monte Barrett, in my opinion by far his best career performance. He actually fought that fight like he had some hair on his chest . . .since Sanders he's holding and looking very unsure about how to handle a pressure puncher. People point to the Peter fight, but not only was Wlad saved from a KO by the bell twice in that fight, but Peter is REALLY BAD people. I just saw him vs Hawkins, someone a top HW should be able to look good against. AWFUL. So telegraphed, concrete feet, slow pace. He had a very winnable fight vs an old fat Toney and James just potshotted him to bits, despite hurting the former middleweight twice.

Ruddock had serious flaws but is a much better fighter than Sam Peter.

[Overhand_Right]

& think about how bad this sitch really is: We are debating how he would do against one of the 2nd tier heavies of the 90's. Nobody is even bothering to assume how he's do against the 1st liners.

Hehe, Gordoom caught onto my little scheme.

[Overhand_Right]

I'm amazed at how some of you are high on the Brock win. NOBODY round here rated the extremely ordinary Brock in the build up to that fight, and now its a selling point for Wlad?

Maskaev- Ruddock punches through & reaches his glass jaw, probably in 1. Klitschko gets decked several times before a ref rescues him in the 2nd. Briggs tries a shoot out & gets taken out likely early, only question mark is Valuev. I believe Ruddock would win 100%, but difficult to pick how as we dont know the whole story on him yet. Seeing him wobbled by Nobles and Barrett points to Ruddock squashing him early, but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.