Doesn't Anybody here Want to Talk some NFL Football?

[hawk5ins]

Deion plus Norton on SF and Dallas Minus Norton, were HUGE in the shift of the balance of power. Deion going to Dallas, which was also a subtraction to SF, was also integral in another shift.

These were pretty evenly matched teams where the additions and subtractions of Key players INDEED made the differences in the wins and losses.

But In addition to that, were the injuries mentioned and injuries to other players as well. Let's also recall that in the regular season meeting between Dallas and SF in 1995, a game Dallas, lost, Troy Aikman, went down early and the Boys had to rely on Wade Wilson.

AGAIN, though, this is obfuscating the entire point here: If SUCH a call (4th & 2 or 4th and less than a foot, from deep in one's own territory) is SUCH an Idiodic call for ONE coach in whihc he is call an idiot and out of his league and is labeled a BOZO, as in Bozo the Clown, then THE EXACT same Call HAS to apply to a future Hall of Fame Coach...who By the way Is NOT admitting a mistake. He is NOT taking any Blame. TODAY, he defended his call, yet agian.

So actually, maybe pointing out the obvious, that one coach who made such a call, is NOT as great a PRO coach as another who made the EXACT same call (and BOTH feel they did nothing wrong with the call), actually illustrates my point completely.

Either Football writers owe Barry an apology, or they need to dust off their Clown Noses and Feet for Belichick.

It was the SAME call in the SAME scenario.

It is NOT a good call for one coach and a bad one for another.

Doesn't work that way.

Hawk

[apollack]

Watched the game in its entirety. Pats had played a fairly solid game up to the end against a very tough and determined team. BB's call was utterly foolish. The worst call of his career. He's a great coach, but like great players, even great coaches can have a bad moment. This was BB's big fumble. It also can have a demoralizing impact on the team. It shows that he has zero confidence in his D to hold the Colts off, even with a long field. I don't think that was entirely fair to his D. They had played a fairly solid game, including a couple INTs. If the Colts march the ball all the way down the field and win, then so be it. But the gamble he took, with two yards to go, with a VERY short field for the other team if you don't make it, was way too great. You are essentially putting the game on the line with one play. You do that if you are behind, not ahead. Why play desperate?

[hawk5ins]

Of Belichick is that he REFUSES to admit it was a Foolish call.

Switzer refused to do the same and he was labled an idiot.

I am now reading some softening up on Belichick now. Exscuses being made and some buying into that it was actually a GOOD call.

Here is some "wisdom" from a Cowboys beat writer who actually covered and then SKEWERED Barry Switzer's 4th and 1 play from the Boys' 29 yard Line:

Belichick: Not "Dumb and Dumber'' but...
7:48 AM Mon, Nov 16, 2009
Tim Cowlishaw Dallas Morning News

Until now, there was no rational reason to put the names Bill Belichick and Barry Switzer in the same sentence unless you were listing Super Bowl-winning coaches and had made the odd decision to list them alphabetically by first name.

Maybe if you were comparing Switzer's success at the college level to what Belichick has done in the pro game, there was cause. Maybe.

But Belichick's decision to go for a first down on 4th-and-2 at his own 28-yard-line Sunday night brought back memories of Switzer's similar (but different and less defensible) call in Philadelphia as Cowboys head coach in 1995.

Belichick is being ripped in all corners today, but I doubt that any newspaper will find a way to copy the headline "Dumb and Dumber'' that the Philadelphia Daily News used the day after that 20-17 Eagles win 14 years ago.

First, a quick look back at Switzer's call.

The Cowboys and Eagles were tied 17-17 and had a 4th-and-one (really about a foot or so) at their 29. Much like the case with Sunday's Pats-Colts game, a first down was basically going to run out the clock or get close to it.
The Cowboys went for it with an Emmitt Smith dive into the line. Now one of the problems is that Smith, for all his greatness, was not a terrific bet to get that yard. It wasn't his strength. And when the Eagles stopped the play, it looked like disaster for Dallas.

But wait. Officials were waving their arms. The 2-minute warning had sounded before the snap. Reprieve for Dallas.

Now, surely, the Cowboys would punt.

Uhh, no. Switzer decided to try it again. This was despite the fact that the Eagles, quarterbacked by Rodney Peete (yes, that Rodney Peete) were hardly flying up and down the filed like Peyton Manning and the Colts' offense.
So Smith was stopped again, the Eagles already in field goal position, moved closer and won the game. Switzer became a laughing stock...at least until the Cowboys won a Super Bowl five victories later.

Now to Belichick's decision. The Pats were winning and a first down would basically have given them the game. But it was fourth-and-two so an obvious passing situation for a team like New England.

Tom Brady's pass to Kevin Faulk was complete, but the ball hit the Pats running back right around the marker and he juggled it briefly while being knocked backwards. The ball was marked short of a first down and, out of timeouts, New England could not challenge.

The Colts scored and won 35-34 and it became a season-changing moment. With a win, the Pats would have been 7-2, just a game behind the Colts for the league's best record and owners of the tie-breaker.

Now New England is going to win the AFC East but knows that if an AFC title game comes to down to Pats and Colts, the game will again be played in Indy.
Here are two reasons that I think while Belichick made the wrong decision, it wasn't as outrageous as Switzer's call.

One, a punt would have given the ball to the Colts around their own 30. The way Manning was carving up New England's defense, two minutes was enough time to score. It wouldn't have happened as quickly or as easily.

But in some ways a punt almost would have registerd as a concession. It would have shown confidence in the defense, but why should Belichick have so much confidence in this defense in this game?

This was a Brady vs. Manning shootout and little more than that.

The second reason the decision made some sense is that NFL coaches punt too much on fourth down. In some cases, way too much. Even in their own territory, it makes sense to go for it rather than to just turn the ball over in a lot of situations.

I don't think this was one of them but I can understand the argument for it. I would have tried to find a way for Brady to throw some quick three- or four-yard pass to Wes Welker in the slot, a nearly unstoppable play for a short gain.

Instead, the Patriots had Randy Moss clear out for Faulk who was well covered and who bobbled the ball.

That play didn't end the Patriots' hopes of getting back to another Super Bowl. But it means that their road, and anyone else's in all likelihood, goes through the home field of the Colts.

Had the Patriots punted, the result might very well have been the same. The only difference is we would have been talking more about the genius of Manning today and not speculating on whatever happened to the genius of Bill Belichick.

And by that I don't mean simply a call that he made that cost his team a win. Now Belichick must go through the rest of the season telling his defensive players he believes in them. And they know from the high-risk call he made Sunday night that he really doesn't.

The mere fact that Cowlishaw fails to even MENTION that there were high winds at the Vet that day that would have knocked down any Dallas punt (going INTO the wind by the way) to no more than a 20 yard gain (in the Air), tells you all you need to know about any agenda's Timmy has.

And of course, I would be remiss if I didn't comment on the: "The Cowboys went for it with an Emmitt Smith dive into the line. Now one of the problems is that Smith, for all his greatness, was not a terrific bet to get that yard. It wasn't his strength."

Well This is true if you discount the fact that in 1995 ALONE, including Playoffs, Emmitt Smith ran for Touch Down runs of 1 yard or less, TWELVE (12!) different times that season. Included in all of this would be one agianst the Eagles in the Playoffs as well (and one agianst Green Bay in the NFC title Game and one agianst Pittsburgh in the SB.).

Yeah. HOF and All Time Great, Running Back Emmitt Smith, behind that Offensive line, was FOREVER having issues making short yardage gains.

Uh huh. Good point Timmy.

Hawk

[apollack]

Agree with you Hawk. That article is as foolish and misguided as BB's call.

BB should have fallen on the sword and apologized to his team afterwards for his mistake. At least they would have respected and forgiven him and moved on. By not admitting his mistake and taking responsibility, I think there might be lingering bitterness, especially by the defense. And how can you expect a player to take responsibility for his mistakes if you won't? Of course, the flip side of this is if the players like BB, then maybe they'll just rally around him anyway and play harder. He went for the outright win with that play and it didn't work. Oh well. Some players might just buy into that.

It didn't seem to ruin Dallas' run to the superbowl for Switzer.

[hawk5ins]

Should definitely be New England's measuring stick.

Dallas does NOT win the SB in the 95 season, then the writers would FOREVER tie back that year's "failure" to that one play.

AGAIN, as I see the same thing in play for Belichick's decision, should NE Fail to win it all, I think HE TOO should be held to fire for that decision.

Hawk

[apollack]

Problem for BB is he does not have as good a team as Dallas was that year. They are good, very solid, and dangerous for anyone. But they aren't what they once were. That Cowboys team was essentially pretty much the same team that had won two bowls previously. A LOT of the best players who won bowls for the Pats are no longer with them. Maybe that's why BB went for it. He really doesn't have the same confidence in this D as he has in the past.

[Counter Jab]

I love Belicheck. It takes you know what to go for it like he did. They make the first down, he is the genious that he is. It did not work and he is mud.
I he plays to win. I'm fine with his gamble. That was a man's call.

And so he's mud. Tho an Indy fan, NE's record speaks for itself. Tho your first title came on that snow-bowl Oakland game when, what was it, a pass? fumble? not to mention that Belichek (great coach that he is, Cheated! plain and simple, fined and lost a draft pick, perhaps not once but twice)
Game over, see ya in the playoffs
Isn't Robert Mathias as good as Freeney?
...what boggles me is that the current spread for the Colts-Ravens game next Sunday is Colts +1??? I sorta understand the bookies logic (sorta) but geez-o-pete!

[Phillyfan]

Anyone else tired of the multiple football anaylyst panel? At last count I think you had 6 guys fighting for airtime. Add to that shannon sharpe murdering the kings english. Plus, stop with all the good old boy routines. You're getting paid to analyze and report, not act like your in a high school locker room.
marino, sharpe, JB, long, cowher,esiason,bradshaw,strahan,etc..
And while I'm on it, and cranky, drop the sideline reporter. A complete waste of time, especially andrea kramer , who's 2 second sound bite isn't worth the thousands they pay her. It adds absolutely nothing to the broadcast.

[JLP 6]

Anyone else tired of the multiple football anaylyst panel? At last count I think you had 6 guys fighting for airtime. Add to that shannon sharpe murdering the kings english. Plus, stop with all the good old boy routines. You're getting paid to analyze and report, not act like your in a high school locker room.
marino, sharpe, JB, long, cowher,esiason,bradshaw,strahan,etc..
And while I'm on it, and cranky, drop the sideline reporter. A complete waste of time, especially andrea kramer , who's 2 second sound bite isn't worth the thousands they pay her. It adds absolutely nothing to the broadcast.

I love it.

Counter J, remember watching the Patriot-Colts in a championship game and watching the great coach shutdown Manning. Law had like three interceptions, because Beliecheck figured out how to get to Payton, rush him and make him make mistakes.

[hawk5ins]

It seems Manning has been able to figure out the "great coach", as Peyton and the Colts have won 5 of the last 6 meetings between the two teams.

Hawk

[Counter Jab]

It seems Manning has been able to figure out the "great coach", as Peyton and the Colts have won 5 of the last 6 meetings between the two teams.
Hawk

That was as good a counterpunch as any Quarry or Galindez ever threw...

[JLP 6]

It seems Manning has been able to figure out the "great coach", as Peyton and the Colts have won 5 of the last 6 meetings between the two teams.

Hawk

3 bowls to 1.

I cannot remember if all went through Indy.

Great Coach

[hawk5ins]

the Overall #'s between the two teams.

But your point was that "the Great Coach" had figured out Manning and was able to shut him down.

Well, over the last 6 meetings, Manning and the Colts have won 5 games, including a playoff meeting. The lone loss was a 20-24 loss during the Patriots undfeated regular season. Manning threw one TD, had one pick and ran for a TD. Certainly Belichick didn't shut Manning down completely.

These numbers Sure seem to indicate that Manning and the Colts have done a Wonderful job of Figuring out Belchick.

If you want to go back to the 2004 season to discuss the last time the Patriots beat the Colts in the Playoffs.....the floor is yours.

But In no way shape or form does the Colts and Manning winning 5 of the last 6 meetings between Indy and New England, suggest Belichick, the "great coach", has Manning figured out any longer.

And given the "panic" 4th and 2 call from his own 28, that Belichick made in Sunday's game, I think it is safe to say that Bill is calling Peyton "His Daddy" right about now.

Hawk

[JLP 6]

1. Jan. 18, 2004 - AFC Championship - New England 24, Indianapolis 14
2. Jan. 16, 2005 - AFC Divisional - New England 20, Indianapolis 3

Since 2000 the record is 6-5 Pats.

Since 2000 the Pats have won 3 Superbowls.

Belicheck has been the coach for each one. Why question him? For him to be able to guide his team past Paytons the Colts in a great acheivement.

I say that with out the Belicheck led Pats, the Colts win two more bowls.

Father Belicheck

[hawk5ins]

I know the complete Numbers.

You are not saying anything that isn't known.

But over the PAST 6 games, INCLUDING the playoffs, Manning and the Colts have won 5 of those games.

ANY suggestion that "the Great Coach" has Manning figured out any longer is completely false.

If anything the OPPOSITE, is true.

And understand, in 2005, the Pats were 10-6 Regular season and 1st in the AFC East, 2006, 12-4 and 1st, 2007 16-0 and 1st, 2008 11-5 and tied for first(failed to make playoffs though) and are currently 6-3 and in 1st place.

So it is not as though the Patriots have SUCKED over this 6 game span.

OVERALL, spanning Mannings career when Belichick was coaching the Patriots, the record is 6 wins Indy and 8 wins N.E. which includes playoffs that favors New England 2-1.

If You factor what has happened over the Past 6 games, the over all numbers that slightly favor New England, there is NO way you can make the statement that "the Great Coach" has Manning figured out and Shuts him down.

Hey, if you look at Mannings COMPLETE career vs New England, he was only 1-3 agaisnt Pete Carroll. So you actually have a better case of saying Pete owned Manning than Belichick owning Manning.

Hawk

[JLP 6]

He has not mastered Payton lately. Cool with me.

[hawk5ins]

It may not be at ALL.

5 of last 6, including playoffs, including some pretty horrific blown leads, is pretty telling if you ask me.

Hawk

[JLP 6]

Cool

[Sharkey]

It was a gamble on the short end of the safe meter.

Let's not forget, the issue with punting is Manning (THE best QB in the game.. and by a lot.. sorry Brees and Brady) has the ball.

Ok.. the issue with going is you dont get it Manning has the ball on a shorter field.

What I didn't like is the play to get the yardage. IF you go on 4th, you HAVE to have the least amount of possible oopsies IF when you dont get we reflect on it.

I get a pass play, and a run and turn, but Indy is blitzing.

The right call, IMO, is go for it on 4th and 4 inches if your Bellys. 4th and 2? Manning over there? Why 'trust' your D to defend 30 yards as if its easier than 60? If 'you have to be able to get 2 yards.' I would correct you and say you have to expect to get one, when you run the ball.

Bellichek got frazzled by Manning's awesomeness and to his credit, the execution of the play was good.. and indeed they get that.. game over.

But you don't get it, and its Manning your facing... Game over.

As an aside, the Colts are ALL Peyton Manning. MVP, easily. Way ahead of the pack. Stats schmats. He is the Colts. He is undefeated.

And I like the guy and his persona and etc but I hate his excellence as a Jets fan.

[sr71ko]

I am by no means a Patriot fan nor am I a Bill B. fan, but even though conventional wisdom suggests that he should have punt.... he went for it and got it. That spot was horrible. He was across the first down marker by at least a yard or so. If the spot had been correctly marked the way it should have been this would be a non issue. Then again the refs screwed up a lot of games this week too. Just look at the Cowboys-Packers game.

[hawk5ins]

I say the Manning is MUCH more inside Belichick's head, than Belichick is in Peyton's head. Or maybe has ever been in the reverse.

Peyton is 7-8 in the playoffs. But he was hoodwinked agianst ALL playoff teams. Not JUST N.E. Only 2 of those Playoff losses were to N.E. Two have been to S.D. (current streak). And one apiece to the Titans, Phins, Jets and Steelers.

Against a Belichick coached Pats, he started out 1-7 (playoffs included) and now after going 5-1 over the last six meetings (playoffs included), Peyton has closed the gap to 6-8.

With two of those wins coming via HUGE comebacks comandeered by Manning, I think Bells is truly Spooked by Manning.

Manningvs Peyton, was for the longest time charecterized as: Manning has the Stats, Brady has the titles. Akin to a Chamberlain Russell rivalry.

But as this has progressed and the wins have mounted for Peyton's Colts and winning it all in 2006, finally giving Peyton his Super Bowl, the rivalry is more accurately described as Bird Magic.

What Manning is doing this year with what was described by Sharks as a Peyton being a Team in of himself is wholly remarkable. He is continually WILLING his team to win.

I have gained Huge amounts of respect for Peyton this season. If he can continue this deep into the playoffs, it may count as the most remarkable season by a QB that any of us has ever seen.

I know this is hyperbole, but just look at that Colts team and what Peyton has done and you HAVE to be completely impressed and convinced of his greatness.

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

I disagree. Clearly Faulk was juggling the ball and when he was brought down, the mark was correct.

Remember, becuase of another GAFF by Belichick, who was CLEARLY rattled at the end of the game, in which he had to burn his final time out moments earlier, as he didn't have the correct personel on the field for the scheme he was lookging run.

By having to use that time out, he was NOT in a position to challenge the spot.

But after seeing that replay about 20 times now, there is NO way that the Official spot would EVER be moved ahead at all.

So challenging that call would NOT have changed the change of possession.

By Comparison, Emmitt was closer to getting HIS 1st down for the Cowboys agianst the Eagles in 1995 than Faulk was for the Patriots. The spot was dead on.

Hawk

[apollack]

Hawk, you are dead-on throughout this entire thread.

[hawk5ins]

I won't let it go to my head.

All I have to do is open my mouth agian and say something ridiculous and this all goes away!

Give me 5 mins!

HA!

Hawk

[Counter Jab]

Vegas sez Ravens over Colts by 1 as we speak; are the bookies collectively nuts?

[apollack]

They probably think the Colts are due for a loss, they are emotionally and physically drained after the victory over the Pats, they have been dealing with some injuries (although successfully), the Ravens have a very solid defense, an emerging offense, it's AT Baltimore, and Baltimore is a tough out, having played a lot of good teams with winning records, with victories over San Diego and Denver, and have been very close in all their losses (6,3,2,10).

Of course the converse to that is Baltimore is coming off a short week having played on Monday, Indy is fantastic, Baltimore is only 5-4, and have losses to New England, Cincinatti (twice), and Minnesota.

[Phillyfan]

I'm still going with the colts kicker in my fantasy league. Philly radio is talking that mcnabb is gone after this year. Thank God.

[hawk5ins]

Down on McNabb?

Say it ain't so.

BTW, Will trade ya Bulger for McNabb any time you'd like.

I'll throw in Kyle Boeller as well.

Hawk

[Phillyfan]

Its a deal. Just give me a QB that can hit a receiver in stride.

Speaking of which, cutler looked horrible tonight vs eagles. 3 blown passes for TD's. But I don't think I've ever heard such a hatchet job as the announcers were doing to him. Collingsworth in particular was absolutely brutal bringing up the misses time and time again. I think I saw 10 replays of the overthrows. They made the game almost unwatchable, in fact , i was switching back and forth between drumline and the eagles game.

[JLP 6]

7-6 Cowboys.

The next team we play is going to be playing an angry team.

Go Skins!!