Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

[hawk5ins]

Between the first Carnera bout and the second one, Sharkey had one fight. Against Schmeling in whihc he won the crown. Sharkey certainly looked better in the first bout agianst Max than he did the second one, but I think you can make a solid argument, as many have, that the decision agianst Max was not a "we wuz robbed" moment.

Did Carnera improve? What is the evidence he did? Some shady set up fights? Losses to Gains and Poreda? The Ko over Schaaf who had no right to be in the ring?

Frazier between the first and second Quarry bouts had been worn down in a win over ALi that hospitalized him. Destroyed by Foreman and decisioned cleanly by Ali.

Quarry Who lost to Chuvalo and Ali twice inbetween Frazier bouts, was actually on a very impressive win streak that included Wins over Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers. Quarry's stock was rising while Frazier's was certainly nothing like it was in the first fight.

Carnera's competency was openly questioned by several writers and experts of the time.

That the Chicago Tribune stated that Primo was better than he was two years ago...Where is the evidence of that?

Hawk

[raylawpc]

Have you given Carnera's performance against Baer a closer look? It's on www.youtube.com. Carnera actually looks good in the later rounds, as he boxes effectively before finally falling to Max in the 11th.

A clearer version is available at http://www.maxbaer.org/clips.html, courtesy of our friend Maxie's Gal. (Note: rounds 3, 7 and 8 are not included)

[raylawpc]

That the Chicago Tribune stated that Primo was better than he was two years ago...Where is the evidence of that?

Hawk

I dunno Hawk. Maybe they heard it from Joe Louis?

[dongee]

Everyone, everywhere thought that Carnera had come out a "predetermined" winner in that fight. I was just a kid, but I remember it well.

As I recall it, I had mixed feelings until the next day, when some of the press reported that Sharkey had been felled with a solid blow and that he had landed face down, dramatically breaking his nose! That would have been way too realistic an act, methinks.

hap navarro

[HE Grant]

Look at Carnera's record post Louis. That say's it all.

Carnera was a second rate talent. He was easy to hit, had terrible footwork and was a light hitter. He was terribly methodical. He was not a world class fighter.

On the positive, he was very strong, very well conditioned, had a decent jab and believe it or not had pretty good recooperative powers. He also had a huge heart.

That's that. Delisa has a great story about visiting a very old Jack Sharkey in a nursing home and asking him about Carnera...maybe he'll tell it here.

[kenmore]

If Primo Carnera was boxing today, Manny Steward would be training him (Manny's "tall guy" routine) and he'd be rated in the top 10 worldwide. Don King would go out of his way to lock Carnera into a long-term contract. Primo's managers are would be scheming to keep him away from the Klitschkos in order to avoid defeats and to preserve his marketability. HBO would want to broadcast his fights. Fans like us would be cheering Primo for relieving us of the likes of John Ruiz. Heck, Primo would probably pick up an alphabet organization belt or two before losing to someone more talented than himself.

I think the world has been needlessly rough on "The Ambling Alp."

[hawk5ins]

Again, this seems like a sympathetic reassessment. Don't pick on the big lug he was better than that.

No guys. He wasn't.

Look how nimble he looked agianst Baer? SHeesh. Does it need to be pointed out that Baer himself was not the most orthodox of champs we ever had? If Bear did not possess the power he did, his skills would have made him a 3rd rate fighter.

I wonder if in 50 years someone will be doing this on Valuev? Oh that's right. They are doing it TODAY! YIKES!

And Ray, Joe never assessed Primo between SHarkey bouts. Never got a real good look at him until he actually faced him later on.

I put a smiley face in there to illustrate I was being a wise-acre as well, but Emoticons are agianst my religion.

Hawk

[raylawpc]

And Ray, Joe never assessed Primo between SHarkey bouts. Never got a real good look at him until he actually faced him later on.

Hawk, it was a joke based on our earlier colloquy; hence the .

[hawk5ins]

Which is why I followed that line with this:

"I'd put a smiley face in there to illustrate I was being a wise-acre as well, but Emoticons are agianst my religion."

Hawk

[brutu]

I wonder,is there any evidence that perhaps Jack Sharkey may have had some kind of Bi-polar disorder?
His personality certainly seemed erratic,especially in the later part of his career.

[HE Grant]

The only reason people even consider Carnera actually winning is that Sharkey was an incredibly inconsistant fighter through out his entire career. In addition, the thought of the heavyweight title , when it still ment something, trading on a fix is pretty big. I find it very hard to believe as Sharkey was so much better and Carnera was a light puncher but anything is possible.

[rocky111]

Films show Carnera was not a fraud at all. Beatable. What 265 lb guy isnt? They can be beaten to the punch, but Primo knew how to box. Walter Smith who came out of the gym with Louis and was a pal said that Primo was never given credit for FIGHTING Louis and for his gameness and heart. Primo seemed to always give his best effort, had more heart than the law allowed, and he was always in shape and NEVER seemed tired in a fight. He beat some good fighters on the real tip-yet I feel that the fight with Sharkey was fixed. Why? CAuse boxing is at its core, a corrupted sport and the easiest one to fix. Sharkey had underworld connections and despresion dollars went a long way. Hey lots of good fighters fix fights. Billy Conn, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey, Willie Pep, Roberto Duran, Jake Lamotta, and many others. Why the hell not Jack Sharkey? What real pro when put to the test in private will not admit that there are fixed fights?

[MATTDONNELLON]

CARNERA WAS VERY POOR INITIALLY BUT IMPROVED TO BECOME OK BUT NEVER GREAT AS HE LEARNED HIS TRADE. An early manager Leon See wrote a bitter book "Le Mysterie Carnera" in which he detailed the many fixed fights in the early Carnera career both in Europe and the USA. Frederick Mullally lists these contests in his excellent and sympathic book "Primo".
My take on Primo is that he was better than he is generally portrayed (he did beat Loughran in what seems to have been a legit fight) without been very good. The Sharkey fight is a hard call and my guess is a fix-but it is just a guess. The punch looks very good-too good?- and Sharkey seems to duck into it if my memory serves me right.

[HE Grant]

It's a really tough call because of the two fighters involved, one a very inconsistant headcase and the other a limited talent with a big heart. I keep flashing back to the films of Primo's power puff arm punches, his complete lack of any legit KO's and his terribly average record after he was massacered by Louis and the mob droped him.

3 to 1 Sharkey dumped it.

[raylawpc]

Films show Carnera was not a fraud at all. Beatable. What 265 lb guy isnt? They can be beaten to the punch, but Primo knew how to box. Walter Smith who came out of the gym with Louis and was a pal said that Primo was never given credit for FIGHTING Louis and for his gameness and heart. Primo seemed to always give his best effort, had more heart than the law allowed, and he was always in shape and NEVER seemed tired in a fight. He beat some good fighters on the real tip-yet I feel that the fight with Sharkey was fixed. Why? CAuse boxing is at its core, a corrupted sport and the easiest one to fix. Sharkey had underworld connections and despresion dollars went a long way. Hey lots of good fighters fix fights. Billy Conn, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey, Willie Pep, Roberto Duran, Jake Lamotta, and many others. Why the hell not Jack Sharkey? What real pro when put to the test in private will not admit that there are fixed fights?

What fixed fight was Dempsey proven to be involved with?

[hawk5ins]

That this is in reference to the Jim Flynn KO by 1 result.

If it wasn't a thrown bout, it certainly does open the door to alot of questions, that's for sure.

Like Sharkey Carnera II, I think there is quite a bit to lead one to the conclusion that Jack (Dempsey that is) DID throw the bout.

Is there any concrete evidence confirming he did? Not that I am aware of.

Hawk

[raylawpc]

I am aware of the Flynn rumors. Thus, my use of the word "proven."

[kenmore]

An early manager Leon See wrote a bitter book "Le Mysterie Carnera" in which he detailed the many fixed fights in the early Carnera career both in Europe and the USA. Frederick Mullally lists these contests in his excellent and sympathic book "Primo".

Okay...so there are people out there who claim to have first hand knowledge of Primo's fights being fixed. This is what I wanted to find out. I'll pick up these two books.

[greek1237]

Unless your Bowe, no one thowns away the heavyweight title. Jack Sharkey was the heavyweight champ. He had the POWER so to speak. It would make no sense to just take a dive when your the champ. Your better off winning the fight and keeping the title. You get more money from the title defenses, than one would in taking a dive.

[kenmore]

Unless your Bowe, no one thowns away the heavyweight title. Jack Sharkey was the heavyweight champ. He had the POWER so to speak. It would make no sense to just take a dive when your the champ. Your better off winning the fight and keeping the title. You get more money from the title defenses, than one would in taking a dive.

My gut feeling all along -- and I'm not an expert on this -- is that it would take an awful lot of bribery money to compensate a heavyweight champion for taking a dive. I would have expected rumors, claims and eyewitness accounts to surface over the years if indeed Sharkey had been paid a large sum to tank against Carnera.

I would not find it surprising that many of Primo's small town fights were fixed. I would find it very surprising though if Primo's major bouts were fixed.

[mike]

sharkey dived. he went through the same proper motions--practing the getting hit by the uppercut a combition before the ko. carnera--is not going to knock that guy out with one punch--and many or most knew it--mobsters were circling sharkeys camp during traing.

[raylawpc]

Which mobsters?

[Kid Achilles]

I think some thought should be given to the idea that Sharky was legitimately mentally unbalanced and actually believed he saw the ghost of Ernie Schaaf and so he stayed down. That's the story he gave, and it makes more sense than him dumping the title or getting KO'ed from one punch by the soft hitting Carnera.

Who knows, maybe Schaaf's ghost was actually there. I'm willing to buy that over Carnera actually knocking his lights out.

Then again, we're dealing with Sharkey so maybe he did take a bribe and figure "ill take the money and quit boxing with my health", had the Levinsky and Loughran fights for some going away dough (by all acounts he did not do well in these fights, so maybe he just didn't try) and thought he'd be done with boxing. He did take two years off.

Then, maybe the money went, or he decided he needed boxing in his life, and came back.

We're not dealing with the average guy here with Sharkey. He was not a stable person from all that I've read, he was a character and a bit of a headcase at times.

[Sharkey]

In an earlier post I mentioned Sharkey alternated the Schaaf story with his other alibi that Carnera had really gotten alot better. Sometimes it was the ghost of his pal. Other times it was a lucky punch from a guy who he took lightly who had improved..no spectres involved. This leads me to wonder if neither was true. Of course The Gob certainly could have believed both were the case I suppose.

As for the dough, Sharkey famously replied to the question posed him of "What is the title worth to you?" with "Depends on how much I can get for it at the pawn shop." When he won the title finally, Sharkey was indeed elated.....for his wife and kids and how happy they would be. There are many quotes out there which escape me exactly as to Sharkey's first love being money... he liked to fight but he fought for the money first and last. His desire to kick someone's ass was somewhere between those firsts and lasts. He really wanted to fight Tunney as we know...and when Gene retired Sharkey perhaps lost his prime motivator.

There have indeed been rumors of the fight being fixed. this would explain the possibility of bribery etc. The potential success of pulling it off cleanly should nto disqualify it as a possibility. The fact no one blew the lid off of it suggests perhaps a very small cricle of those involved..instead of fair proof it never happened. It is all speculation to a certain degree but the pieces are there.

As for being intimidated into giving up the crown with no financial windfall but rather for his well-being..who knows.

I am not sure if Sharkey was possessing of a mental disorder as I read is being sort of implied here. Rather, I have always come away with the impression that he was a very highly wound guy when it came to fighting, the politics of the fight game and the press.

[raylawpc]

I agree, Sharkey. Your namesake was moody and emotional, but that does not make him bi-polar.

[brutu]

According to the recent biography of Primo Carnera.
Immediatley after Sharkey was knocked out and then fell to the canvas face forward,one of Sharkey's seconds yelled that Carnera had something in his glove,but Carnera's trainer yelled for the ref to check it out before any of Sharkey's seconds could check.

[Mike DeLisa]

Bill Duffy -- and you gotta know Duffy if you are going to underdstand 1930s boxing -- was in Carnera's corner. He was smart enough to demand that Carnera's gloves be checked in the ring by a NYSAC official.

Carnera's gloves were clean.

[raylawpc]

Indeed, the newspaper accounts of the fight all confirm that Carnera's gloves were examined by the commission in the ring immediately after the knockout when Buckley complained.

[brutu]

Wasnt Bill Duffy a Featherweight Champ?
No wonder Carnera,floated like a 260 pound butterfly
in the ring,and stung like a horsefly.

[rocky111]

Abe Attell told Sonny Franzeze that Dempsey dumped the Flynn fight. His ex wife also said he did. Dempsey took him out in the first in the rematch. Jack was broke, unknown, living a street life at the time. Jack Dempsey is unlikely to lose to Jim Flynn. Boxing is a business once you get paid for it.