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Thread: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

  1. #121
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    Re: I think Being in shape

    Quote Originally Posted by 10-8
    As for Duran throwing the Hearns fight, you could line up every reputable inside boxing expert and they could never convince me otherwise from what my eyes see. Duran was cut early, floored legitamitely and out on his feet before being KO'd in the second round. There's easier ways to throw a fight than letting Tommy Hearns unload his best right hand on your jaw.
    The final right hand landed by Hearns against Duran is one of the most brutal I have ever seen in boxing. It landed with the velocity of a powerfully swung golf club.

  2. #122
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    I can't remember if it was Freddie Brown or Ray Arcel but I seem to remember an interview they did prior to their death regarding the second Leonard fight in which it was stated that the 'stomach troubles' excuse was a fabrication that was thought up in the dressing room afterwards to put forth as a plausible explanation when there was no other excuse other than Duran out and out quit.
    It was Arcel I believe.

  3. #123
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    My answer to the challange to produce is this. Of course you cant name people and threatening behavior. Even Jake Lamotta while admitting his sins refused that. But......
    Tommy Hearns is not the banger Marvin Hagler or Ray Leonard or Iran Barkley is. These guys never nailed Duran. Duran would slip a long right like Tommy's with no problem. He wouldnt stand up straight and get nailed. He was never a Pipino Cuevas who got nailed every day sparring. It was very very UNCHARACTORISTIC behavior by Duran.
    When Willie Pep lost to Collins and Perez he exhibited UNCHARACTORISTIC behavior.
    Lamotta dive against Fox was the same.
    The doubt is there. When there are circumstances to predict that something uncharactoristic will take place by a great fighter who never acted that way before. You must think........................

  4. #124
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    Emmanual Steward saying on tv that Duran was "spooked" by Tommy makes me laugh out loud.

  5. #125
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    Spooked?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocky111
    Emmanual Steward saying on tv that Duran was "spooked" by Tommy makes me laugh out loud.
    Yeah, and Duran really must have wanted to set the record straight by later rematching with Hearns. That's why he called out for a Hearns rematch uh.................oh yeah never.

  6. #126
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    I don't know if Duran was spooked or not. He took the fight. He did not throw it. It was a terrible match up for him. Hearn's was at his best against smaller fighters who came in the fight. That waqs the reason I liked him against Hagler. I could not help but feel anyone Hearns was going to hit hard early at that time he was going to beat. I simply did not figure for Hagler's chin being that incredible and Hearn's legs to be so weak.

  7. #127
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    All due respect here

    But, "Of course you cant name people and threatening behavior."

    I suspect the reason you can't do this is becuase there is nothing there.

    The fact that these bouts happened 27 and 23 years ago and not one notable or recognizable boxing insider name has EVER suggested that Duran Threw these bouts becuase he owed money to anyone, lends me to this line of thinking: This suggestion is empty Oliver Stone talk.

    A theory is thrown out into the middle of a pond and lets see if we catch anything.

    I thank you for keeping this strictly to Duran and not name dropping anyone like Lamotta and Pep.

    Again, all due respect here, but, I'm not buying this story for either bout unless something ANYTHING with substance can be presented here.

    You made the comment "I know it for a FACT"... that Roberto threw these bouts. But won't provide anything to back up this fact.

    Yes something uncharecteristic happened with Duran in BOTH the Second SRL and the Hearns bouts. But why do I need to THINK about what could have happened. You KNOW FOR A FACT what happened.

    I say present these facts and remove all doubts.

    Hawk

    As an aside (and I missed this earlier), I think Hearns for a single shot hit harder than SRL at 147, 154 or 160 and as hard if not harder than Barkley or Hagler at Middleweight. Iran and Marvin may have been able to retain their power at 160 deeper into a bout than Hearns could. But for 5 or 6 rounds, I'd take Tommy's one punch pop over either of these two.
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 03-05-2007 at 05:48 PM.

  8. #128
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    Steward on Hearns Duran

    From Duran's book:

    "Before the bout, a story made the rounds that Hearns burned Duran mentally without really trying. If true, it marked the first time that Duran was intimidated before a bout. Duran was a past master at pre-fight initmidation. With some it wrked, with others it didn't. Thus, Duran expressed his fears and insecurities through intimidation. When it didn't work, he lost an edge. For hears he had been typecast as a maniacal fighter with little control. Now, Hearns had switched the roles. At one ponit before the bout, Hearns pulled Durans hat down over his eyes a sure-fire mistake in any setting.

    'That happened, sure,' said Hearns' trainer Emanual Steward. 'Roberto just ran away wehn Tommy pulled his hat down. I don't even know what it was, but Tommy always intimidated Roberto. Even when Tommy was like twenty years old and he was at a fight with Roberto in Vegas. I'll never foget Roberto was talking to someone and Tommy went up and tapped him on the shoulder. Roberto quickly backed away when he saw it was Tommy. It was like he saw a ghost or an evil spirit. THat was Duran's role; he was eh intimidator. But Tommy always possesed something, like a spiritual thing over Roberto. Roberto was always passive around him whether it was at the press conference or on the Street. It was very unlike Roberto."

    To Hearns, whose memory is sketchy, the hat incident was harmless. "It could have been true." Said Hearns. Me and Roberto were playing around and I pulled his hat down. I though it was just build up for the fight. I dind't look at it like it could have been something to make a man change his heart. Just playing around." Hearns would later add. "it was always a must for me to take control before a fight. You never let a man dictate what that your supposed to be doing. I must be in charge and id I'm not the there's soemthing wrong."

    I have no idea if Manny is making more out of this incident and the overall "spook" factor or not. I have heard Steward in the past stretch his points out to really test beleivability. This may very well have been the case here as well.

    I am neither endorsing or condemning Stewards story here. I'm merely adding it to the discussion. At least there is a "hat incident" that can be pointed to as far as evidence to suport the theory.

    Hawk

  9. #129
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    Having met both fighters in person my money would be on Roberto in any street fight with Tommy. Again, I laugh out loud at Stewards line of bull. If anybody was spooked it was Tommy about Tony Ayala, but thats another story.

  10. #130
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    All Due Sarcasm intended here

    Thank you for clearing all of this up.

    I'll take your non-response to my repeated question, as the answer I was expecting.

    I hand held this one delicately for far too long.

    Lesson learned. Won't go there agian.

    Hawk

  11. #131
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    I think Sharkey may very well have thrown the fight.

  12. #132
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    Agreed Sharks

    Since we were not going anywhere with the "morphed topic" here, Might as well steer this back to the original topic.

    My apologies to everyone for my persistance here on this.

    It was obviously pointless and unecessary.

    Hawk

  13. #133
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    Again, this worship of athletes in action is nonsense. What do you want one to do, get Duran or Billy Conn or Liston to swear on the Bible in Court? To deny big fights is to deny Organized Crime or its hold on "Sports". Big money which is backed up always wants to bet on a certainty. Jake Lamotta operated in sports at the highest level, when boxing was at the top of the sports pages. He admits he threw a big fight because....When certain guys in prison talked about fights that were fixed, Hatchetman Sheppard was there and he never said it wasnt. He ALWAYS agreed it was. In private it was no different. I TRUST these kinds of men because they show charactor in the harshest conditions. "Certain guys" are "certain guys" because.....Thats my response. I trust certain guys and I believe in no event entirely that big money controls.

  14. #134
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    Yep

    It's worship.

    Blind worship. The first time I ever heard that Duran was a Great fighter, I didn't demand proof of Greatness or bother to research information about the fighter himself and the fights he participated in. I simply accepted it as fact.

    One would think that because I am so willing to blindly worship in this manner, that I would also be willing to blindly accept your accusation that is presented before us with zero amounts of evidence, other than your constant name dropping of OTHER fighters, and not one reputable boxing insider EVER mentioning this about Duran re throwing these two fights (2nd SRL and the Hearns bouts), EVER.

    You "Know it for a fact" Duran threw these two fights.

    I blindly accept your story as authentic and above being questioned by the likes of me.

    I humbly apologize and will never question your word again.

    If this post is deemed a bit too sarcastic, please mods, feel free to delete it.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 03-07-2007 at 05:05 PM.

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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    You are free to question anything you like. Its I that accept the word of certan guys, but not blindly. I trust their experiences. I see the "salt" that they ate to have the eyes they have. I understand the idea that Duran was a great fighter and the acceptance as such. But he led a very reckless life and no life is bigger than money here on earth.....Unfortunately.

  16. #136
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    You are free to question anything you like. Its I that accept the word of certan guys, but not blindly. I trust their experiences. I see the "salt" that they ate to have the eyes they have. I understand the idea that Duran was a great fighter and the acceptance as such. But he led a very reckless life and no life is bigger than money here on earth.....Unfortunately.

  17. #137
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    Please

    Understand.

    I am No longer questioning you.

    You have shown a complete and total unwillingness to provide any type of answers to the straight forward questions I put forth here regarding this topic.

    So I will do so no more. As it pertains to this or any other topic.

    Obfuscation, run arounds, patronization, name dropping of everyone and anyone EXCEPT the topic at hand, has proven far too frustrating for me to ever try to attempt this agian.

    Ignorantly yours,

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 03-11-2007 at 06:49 PM.

  18. #138
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    Just thought Id throw in something that was printed in a book called "The Detroit Mafia" in which Tommy Hearns is shown in a pix that describes him as having many "Underworld" connections, especially in illegal gambling. Emmanual Steward also has plenty of stories floating around in which he also has been in huge gambling debt. Another point that escapes me when I listen to Steward: Why would Duran, a natural lightweight, chose to fight a much bigger guy who he was "spooked" by? Couple of other underworld facts are that big money was bet on Duran in those days by Spanish speaking underworld figures every time they could get a bet, ditto for Hearns by the Detroit Drug world. If one cant get "facts", (I mean how many sporting events have "proven" to be fixed), at least one may consider circumstances and funny endings. Again, Did Lamotta really knock out Bobby Satterfield when he never even floored Fritzie Zivic in about 45 rounds?

  19. #139
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    Yawn.

    Rocky,

    I have moved on here.

    I would suggest you do the same, but then agian, you never really joined the conversation now did you?

    Glad to see you still are partaking in that name dropping routine you seem to have perfected.

    Obviously, if I comment on the book "Motor City Mafia", this becomes a conversation about Tommy Hearns (Who everyone in Detroit followed. Drug Addicts, Gamblers, Pimps, Hoods, etc.. Nothing new here.) and Alex Karras and Isiah Thomas and Denny McClain......you know. Anything but Duran.

    Not going to be bothered here.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 03-13-2007 at 03:52 PM.

  20. #140
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    Hawk, I wasn't aware this thread was between you and Rocky only.

    I, too, wish Rocky could/would name his sources, but, none the less, I find his posts interesting.

  21. #141
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    Who said this was an exclusive thread?

    I said I'm not going to be bothered anymore.

    If Rocky wants to direct anything more to ME, personally, I asked him not to bother. I am no longer interested.

    You want to ask questions that are going to be tap danced around, have at it. Personally my feet are tired and no longer want to dance.

    Hawk

  22. #142
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    Okay.

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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocky111
    Just thought Id throw in something that was printed in a book called "The Detroit Mafia" in which Tommy Hearns is shown in a pix that describes him as having many "Underworld" connections, especially in illegal gambling. Emmanual Steward also has plenty of stories floating around in which he also has been in huge gambling debt. Another point that escapes me when I listen to Steward: Why would Duran, a natural lightweight, chose to fight a much bigger guy who he was "spooked" by? Couple of other underworld facts are that big money was bet on Duran in those days by Spanish speaking underworld figures every time they could get a bet, ditto for Hearns by the Detroit Drug world. If one cant get "facts", (I mean how many sporting events have "proven" to be fixed), at least one may consider circumstances and funny endings. Again, Did Lamotta really knock out Bobby Satterfield when he never even floored Fritzie Zivic in about 45 rounds?


    Rocky: Yeah, but wasn't Satterfield famous for his glass jaw? I've got only one fight of his, the one with Ezzard Charles. Satterfield went down like he got hit by Joe Louis. I know LaMotta wasn't a great knockout puncher, but I don't think it's too strange to think he might have flattened Satterfield on the level.

    Enswell

  24. #144
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    All the comments on this board is for discussion only. Its a forum for opinion and commentary. I make nothing personal at all. Its just conversation about a sport we all love. I hope always to keep it that way. Someone disagrees with me, hey its all in fun. I may learn something. Then again the disagreeing party may also learn something.
    Enswell
    Satterfield was a party guy and that was the cause of his so called glass chin. In shape he was a huge banger. He went the distance with many bigger stronger hitters than Jake Lamotta. The comments on Lamottas lack of a big punch comes from many fighters. Great fighters (Lamotta was surely that, often lack a big wallop). Its a legendary story here in Chicagos underworld that Jake threw the Cecil Hudson fight in the Windy City. Satterfield was knee deep with the Chicago Outfit. He also was a guy who koed tons of quality heavyweights. The talk of the fix in the Satterfield fight is something Ive been hearing from the "boys" forever. I used to argue against it (being half Italian), but now I kind of believe it. Age sometimes brings wisdom and a clearer eye.

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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    Satterfield was a party guy and that was the cause of his so called glass chin. In shape he was a huge banger. He went the distance with many bigger stronger hitters than Jake Lamotta. The comments on Lamottas lack of a big punch comes from many fighters. Great fighters (Lamotta was surely that, often lack a big wallop). Its a legendary story here in Chicagos underworld that Jake threw the Cecil Hudson fight in the Windy City. Satterfield was knee deep with the Chicago Outfit. He also was a guy who koed tons of quality heavyweights. The talk of the fix in the Satterfield fight is something Ive been hearing from the "boys" forever. I used to argue against it (being half Italian), but now I kind of believe it. Age sometimes brings wisdom and a clearer eye.[/QUOTE]


    I have no personal knowledge of that fight, but Satterfield going the distance with bigger hitters than LaMotta isn't compelling evidence. There could be all sorts of legitimate reasons for that. George Foreman had no problems Frazier and Noton, but was ko'd by Ali. There can be many factors, other than sheer punching power, that can result in a knockout.

    Enswell

  26. #146
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    Re: LaMotta vs Satterfield and Hudson

    Quote Originally Posted by rocky111
    All the comments on this board is for discussion only. Its a forum for opinion and commentary. I make nothing personal at all. Its just conversation about a sport we all love. I hope always to keep it that way. Someone disagrees with me, hey its all in fun. I may learn something. Then again the disagreeing party may also learn something.
    Enswell
    Satterfield was a party guy and that was the cause of his so called glass chin. In shape he was a huge banger. He went the distance with many bigger stronger hitters than Jake Lamotta. The comments on Lamottas lack of a big punch comes from many fighters. Great fighters (Lamotta was surely that, often lack a big wallop). Its a legendary story here in Chicagos underworld that Jake threw the Cecil Hudson fight in the Windy City. Satterfield was knee deep with the Chicago Outfit. He also was a guy who koed tons of quality heavyweights. The talk of the fix in the Satterfield fight is something Ive been hearing from the "boys" forever. I used to argue against it (being half Italian), but now I kind of believe it. Age sometimes brings wisdom and a clearer eye.
    According to Ring magazine correspondent Gene Engel who covered the LaMotta-Satterfield fight:

    “LaMotta reigned a hailstorm of blows on Rapid Robert Satterfield, who fell by the wayside in the seventh round before 9950 enthusiastic fightgoers. Satterfield did the best he could, but was no match for the two-fisted ‘Jake the Giant Killer’.”

    LaMotta weighed 167, Satterfield 167 ¾.



    LaMotta-Hudson


  27. #147
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    Re: Is there any substance to the rumor of Carnera KO Sharkey being "fixed"?

    Its funny that the newspaper version of the Hudson Lamotta fight here also has note that Lou Woods of Detroit fought on the semi. Lou taught boxing here in Detroit and HE also used to laugh out loud at anybody accepting the Hudson bout as the real thing.
    Hey Jake was a great fighter, but the guys who gave me my imformation were great at their jobs too. Being that Jake did it in MSG in front of the biggest writers in boxing and the USA, well who could trust him.

  28. #148
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    Stuart

    Where does this begin and end though?

    In essence, we are being asked to take the word of a nameless and faceless sources. Supposedly these sources have mod ties. What makes me want to be inclined to BELEIVE what they say is true?

    Thier word? THeir honor? Thier integrity?

    This thread has introduced other fights that supposedly were fixed fights. FIghts that have never BEEN alleged to have been fixed.

    Leonard Duran II. Hearns Duran. To name two.

    I ask for proof that these were fixed fights. I'm being asked to simply have blind faith that one poster was told this by someone he can't indentify.

    Agian, I ask, where does this end?

    Can I now state that, oh say, Tyson Spinks was a fixed fight? And when someone asks me for proof, I can fall back on the "there is no evidence and I can't name my sources"? safety net?

    I'm sorry, but I find this to be asking an awful lot.

    I say if one is GOING to ALLEGE something, they should back up their claim with something better than nameless and faceless "sources". Either that or keep it to yourself.

    Hawk

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    But Stuart

    Are these being passed off as "beliefs"? Or were they passed off as "facts"?

    If I make a statement such as, "Ray Arcel said Larry Holmes was the greatest heavyweight ever. It's a FACT. Ray Said it."

    What is the first thing that is asked? "Can you provide a source where Arcel ever said that?"

    If I retorted that I can't provide anyone with any source or that my source needs to be confidential, what is the reaction here?

    You know what it would be and I do to.

    If I am going to make any sort of declaration on this board and Pass it off as A FACT, Not a belief, but an unquestionable FACT, I DAMN well better be able to back that FACT up.

    "I BELEIVE this to be the case or true." I think a bit more latitude is given and allowed.

    "THIS IS A FACT."

    Bullshot. Prove it.

    Or Shut up.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 05-03-2007 at 05:35 PM.

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    Stuart

    Then isn't this the entire issue when making a proclamation such as this in the first place? Rather pass it off as a belief as opposed to an undeniable fact. Unless you can without question, back up the fact.

    You yourself have already made conclusions about a set of fights that have been presented:

    "With some fights I can make a judgment on from the film. Like Sharkey-Carnera looks on the level from where I'm sitting, whereas the Liston-Clay fights are far less satisfactory.
    Duran-Hearns looks almost certainly straight, Duran-Leonard 2 might be crooked."

    If one were to state that they "believed" each of these were fishy, well you realize that the one doing so was in essence making judgments based on reasonable evidence such as film and possibly other sources.

    But if another were to come here and state that there is absolutely NO question that each was fixed and it was a FACT that this is so for each bout, would not be inclined to inquire how one came to such lock solid conclusions?

    UNLESS you have the ability to deliver on the latter, I think it would be prudent to present it as the former.

    Hawk

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