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Thread: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

  1. #61
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    >>>I have read the threads and see no direct insult of you spurring you to action in like kind... as for a lack of respect accorded to you by others, you have been far too guilty of that against me in the past that to claim such is confusing.<<<

    Now that is flat out bullshit!!!! I've never said anything of the sort to you on this board...now I may have on some other forum which you use a different name, but that does not count here, I am vewry respectable toward others on this forum and always have been unless I have been given reason not to be, but I know damn well that I have not said the first thing negative to you on this board...unless you attacked me first, but I do not recall anything...

    I would really like to see these threads where I supposedly called you ignorant, or attacked you in any way, so how about providing these supposed posts of mine!!!!


    >>>There is absolutely no malice intended.<<<

    No malice intended...well it would seem to me that making up crap that I never did, well that seems to be pretty malicious...now I would really...REALLY like to see the supposed threads where I talked down to you and when you cannot provide them then I would like an apology!!!

    Now it's crap like this that pisses me off...making up, well...making up flat out lies. Now if I am wrong and you can show me where I have called you such, or started bullshit with you then I will apologize, but I doubt very seriously that you can.

    >>>I am actually taking what you wrote and asking you about the very phrases you use.<<<

    Again...this is a load of bullshit as well. Exactly what phrases are you speaking of? I was talking about the topic and then all of a sudden you go off on some rant that has nothing to do with the topic. Why don't you show me these phrases that you seem to be talking about!!!
    Last edited by BDeskins; 03-14-2007 at 12:31 PM.

  2. #62
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    Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    All this over Roy Jones?.

  3. #63
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    The original question was "Any Roy Jones fans out there?"

    This discussion proves there is at least one.

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    >>>All this over Roy Jones?.<<<

    No...actually Frank it's about people showing disrespect and making up inaccurate tales...Jones just happened to be the topic at hand.

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    The original question was "Any Roy Jones fans out there?"

    This discussion proves there is at least one.
    Tom! Tom!!

  6. #66
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    You're not exactly in a position to make demands of me to produce evidence to your satisfaction.

    Unless I attacked you first? Clearly and utterly not the case. Flat out lies? For what end? You're not THAT important.

    Don't be pissed off by me. What I say should be so unimportant to you that it should never bother you. You don't recall it, so it must never have happened. Bullshit is by definition nonsense. Is it not?

    Good enough for me.

  7. #67
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    >>>All this over Roy Jones?.<<<

    No...actually Frank it's about people showing disrespect and making up inaccurate tales...Jones just happened to be the topic at hand.
    "Showing disrespect and making up inaccurate tales" . . . well THAT certainly has never happened on this board before! Come on guys, its only boxing.

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Doesn't anybody on this board work? like have jobs?

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    >>>You're not exactly in a position to make demands of me to produce evidence to your satisfaction<<<

    Oh actually I am in position...very much so!!!! I have been very respectful toward you in this thread, even though you have been questioning my integrity and my meanings toward others which actually is none of your business, or concern to begin with, but I have been very cordial in trying to answer anything you have asked in a decent manner and now you want to flat out lie...sorry, but that is offensive...do you like being called a liar...because that is what you are...now prove me wrong and lets see some evidence where I have been disrespectful toward you at all on this forum!!!

  10. #70
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    >>>"Showing disrespect and making up inaccurate tales" . . . well THAT certainly has never happened on this board before!<<<

    Actually Gor does a very good job at keeping it to a minimum and I know it is just boxing, but I don't like when anyone starts lying about me though!!!

  11. #71
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by kikibalt
    Doesn't anybody on this board work? like have jobs?
    LOL!!!! Yes, and I better get back to mine before I get in dutch again with "you-know-who," Frank.

  12. #72
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    >>>Doesn't anybody on this board work? like have jobs?<<<

    This is how a lot of people spend their day at work...and then some people wonder why America is starting to fall back in competition to other countries in education and work production. Though this is not a critique...I would probably be spending my work day the same way if I could!

  13. #73
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    >>>You're not exactly in a position to make demands of me to produce evidence to your satisfaction<<<

    Oh actually I am in position...very much so!!!! I have been very respectful toward you in this thread, even though you have been questioning my integrity and my meanings toward others which actually is none of your business, or concern to begin with, but I have been very cordial in trying to answer anything you have asked in a decent manner and now you want to flat out lie...sorry, but that is offensive...do you like being called a liar...because that is what you are...now prove me wrong and lets see some evidence where I have been disrespectful toward you at all on this forum!!!
    You either don't recall it, or it is a lie. It cannot be both. As for being called a liar, it does not bother me when you call me that because I am not a liar and what you say, or anyone here in cyberspace says, cannot make me angry.

    You saying something does not make it so..and if you are the only judge of when you are wrong then I would state if you can't be wrong, you must be right.

    I will offend you no more, hopefully. Please, write whatever you would like to continue trying to win the argument we never had.
    Last edited by Sharkey; 03-14-2007 at 01:06 PM.

  14. #74
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    As was stated from Gordoom:


    >>>I know Barry has really gotten into it on other boards but we don't do it here & he respects that. I don't care what anybody has done on any other boards. Everybody starts with a clean slate here.<<<


    This is all the proof that I need Sharkey!!!


    Personally I leave everything at the computer when I am done for the day...I don't carry things around for months...even years and I don't start lies about other posters...I don't need to, but I can back up what I say with proof!!! What was it...did I make you look foolish on some other forum and you have had a grudge ever since...was that it? Exactly what is your purpose here...if I am not importnat to you then why have you spent the past few hours engaged in something about me that does not even concern you?

    Also...it's pretty sad for someone to have to make up lies about someone they don't even know in order to feel superior...do you feel better about yourself?
    Last edited by BDeskins; 03-14-2007 at 01:11 PM.

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    LOL!!!! Yes, and I better get back to mine before I get in dutch again with "you-know-who," Frank.
    Yes Tom, you better get to it because I can hear the BOSS looking for you.

  16. #76
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDeskins
    As was stated from Gordoom:


    >>>I know Barry has really gotten into it on other boards but we don't do it here & he respects that. I don't care what anybody has done on any other boards. Everybody starts with a clean slate here.<<<


    This is all the proof that I need Sharkey!!!


    Personally I leave everything at the computer when I am done for the day...I don't carry things around for months...even years and I don't start lies about other posters...I don't need to, but I can back up what I say with proof!!! What was it...did I make you look foolish on some other forum and you have had a grudge ever since...was that it? Exactly what is your purpose here...if I am not importnat to you then why have you spent the past few hours engaged in something about me that does not even concern you?

    Also...it's pretty sad for someone to have to make up lies about someone they don't even know in order to feel superior...do you feel better about yourself?
    What is sad is your denial, victim-act and temper when asked some questions. You are foolish by casting such phrases as if you are performing for an audience. No amount of name calling and character framing you perform can confuse that you must have things your way.

    The difference between you and I is that I do not believe those that do not agree with me or are unclear about something have a vendetta. Nor do I project onto others the behaviors I myself have.

  17. #77
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    It wasn't me that jumped into some thread of yours asking you about what you mean...it was you who jumped into my business and a thread that I was in, which was fine until you started lying and making up bullshit!!! So don't try to pretend to be something that you are not...when the evidence so clearly shows otherwise! I mean really...you should not be concerned one way, or the other about what I mean, or what I say to other people. As far as mje playing the victim...well you have failed to provid anything to show otherwise, but that is not surprising...it's hard to provide something that does not exist, which is I guess why you are not able to present those posts where I talked down to you...smells like a big load of bullshit!!! And again...remember...it was you who came to my debate...not the other way around...too bad you cannot turn the argument around...maybe you could if you were to present those posts where I was talking all of this trash to you...oh..I fogot...there are not posts of the kind!!!

    So unless you can grow the nads to either provide the proof that you claimed, or apologize for lying then I have nothing more for you...I have wasted enough of my valuable time with you!!
    Last edited by BDeskins; 03-14-2007 at 01:46 PM.

  18. #78
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    You don't get it. Succinctly I am not obliged to prove anything to you, whether you accept that fact or not. Reality does not depend on your blessing. You have not been the target of some grand scheme of lies and deceit. Your characterization of being lied about is misguided and incorrect, and there is no judge or jury here for you to play to..no case to win. Your impression is not the reality.

    I believed perhaps that you and the two post-ors in question were merely misreading each other... seeing things and coloring emotion that may not have been there. So I asked you some questions and made some observations. It was not a request to state a case that you would deem one way or the other.

    Your satisfaction with my comments is not, nor has it ever been the issue here.

  19. #79
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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Roy Jones was truly untouchable. Untouchable vs 40 yr old McCallum, Hill who lost to Tommy Hearns 7 yrs prior, then had a split decsion to a journeyman and lost to DM. He also faced Vinny Paziernza after he had kneck surgery that should have ended his career at a much lower weight. You say the very best in boxing tell me, is telesco, Gonzalez, Harding, police officers, school teachers etc..on par with the resume of fighters that DLH faced, or Mosley faced.

    It is easy to get caught up in roy clowing c or b class fighters, that he was supposed to beat. However, the quality of these fighters were not any where near the quality that other greats faced. There were other fighters out there better than who he faced that Roy for some reason did not fight. I got sick and tired of hearing him brag about how bad he is, and he makes his own decisions, then he would repeatedly throw up the "well I had to fight the mandatory challnger" excuse for his weak opposition. Before anyone says that this is a valid reason. I ask you all what was different for every other fighter that was a champion. They had mandatory issues as well but searched and made great fighs. Roy didnt fight Nunn, Benn, Eubank, Collins, DM.

    Would roy have been favored yes, but was Mosley favored over forrest, was Tyson favored over Douglas. was Roy favored over Tarver. The issue is roy should have stopped saying he was the baddest, and he should have proved it versuse the best, not just the old ex champions or alphabet champions.

    Finally, Tarver whipped roy clearly2 out of 3 fights, and Johnson whipped him too, and these where while Roy was active and versus journey men or decent fighters that were his age. Wow. Before you all say roy was old at 34,,hmmm then you all need to revisit your giving roy accolades for beating old McCallum and Hill. If Roys losses dont count then you cant give him credit for 2 out of the 4 name opponents he faced.

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by wpink
    Roy Jones was truly untouchable. Untouchable vs 40 yr old McCallum, Hill who lost to Tommy Hearns 7 yrs prior, then had a split decsion to a journeyman and lost to DM. He also faced Vinny Paziernza after he had kneck surgery that should have ended his career at a much lower weight. You say the very best in boxing tell me, is telesco, Gonzalez, Harding, police officers, school teachers etc..on par with the resume of fighters that DLH faced, or Mosley faced.

    It is easy to get caught up in roy clowing c or b class fighters, that he was supposed to beat. However, the quality of these fighters were not any where near the quality that other greats faced. There were other fighters out there better than who he faced that Roy for some reason did not fight. I got sick and tired of hearing him brag about how bad he is, and he makes his own decisions, then he would repeatedly throw up the "well I had to fight the mandatory challnger" excuse for his weak opposition. Before anyone says that this is a valid reason. I ask you all what was different for every other fighter that was a champion. They had mandatory issues as well but searched and made great fighs. Roy didnt fight Nunn, Benn, Eubank, Collins, DM.

    Would roy have been favored yes, but was Mosley favored over forrest, was Tyson favored over Douglas. was Roy favored over Tarver. The issue is roy should have stopped saying he was the baddest, and he should have proved it versuse the best, not just the old ex champions or alphabet champions.

    Finally, Tarver whipped roy clearly2 out of 3 fights, and Johnson whipped him too, and these where while Roy was active and versus journey men or decent fighters that were his age. Wow. Before you all say roy was old at 34,,hmmm then you all need to revisit your giving roy accolades for beating old McCallum and Hill. If Roys losses dont count then you cant give him credit for 2 out of the 4 name opponents he faced.
    Those last two you mentioned are only names because they made their names off Roy. Who were they before beating up washed up Roy? Nobody.

    WPink you're wrong about Jones. There will never be another like him. When have you ever seen a talent like Roy? Tarver and Johnson are typical Roy Jones caliber victims from earlier years prime Roy would have little problem with. He just wasn't capable of fending off that cailber any longer. The greatest fighter of all time beaten by bums.

    Contrast that with what he did when he was the hottest fighter out there. I was shocked at how easily he handled Hopkins and Ruiz and Toney. It was embarrasing.

    Despite the problems Vinnie had prior to the fight that was probably the best he's fought in years and it still wasn't close. That finish by Roy was classic. Just admit it-it was classic reel footage. In fact, that's one of the first bouts I will upload to utube when I get my converter.

    I got that vista software that isn't compatible with anything so I have to wait for the new version of Pinnacle movie media before I can do it. They told me it would be out before the end of this month though.

    That finish of Pazienza was burnt into the memories of those who saw it and confirms Roy's place at the top of the all time greats.

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    >>>Roy didnt fight Nunn, Benn, Eubank, Collins, DM.<<<

    As has been proved time and again...not one of them wanted a thing to do with Jones...unless they could call all the shots...get the higher pay...which is about a silly as trying to say that Jones was not untouchable...after all...FACTS cannot be denied...people can ignore them, but that just makes them look silly.

    And being that you pink want to talk about weak competition...why don't you look into the competition of DM?

    Or look into the competition of Benn, Eubank, Collins and Nunn...and tell me how much more superior it is to Jones...can you do that, or will you just choose to argue the same old tired and lame argument about Jones that has no substance, or truth to actually back it?


    >>>Finally, Tarver whipped roy clearly2 out of 3 fights, and Johnson whipped him too, and these where while Roy was active and versus journey men or decent fighters that were his age. Wow. Before you all say roy was old at 34,,hmmm then you all need to revisit your giving roy accolades for beating old McCallum and Hill. If Roys losses dont count then you cant give him credit for 2 out of the 4 name opponents he faced.<<<

    Are you really this blind, or do you just not know any better?

    Jones...unbeatable for 15 years...does that not compute? Jones had to lose 20+ pounds of muscle, which in turn ruined his career...does that not compute, or do you just choose to ignore it?

    Not to mention...go back and look this up if you can...all of these supposed C levels fighters that you are talking about were rated top ten by all respectable orgs and by all knowledgable writers.

    Geez...if Jones was facing C level opposition then what does that make the opposition that DM fought...M...N level? Or do you consider fighters like Muslim Biarslanov, Andrea Magi, Drake Thadzi, Mark Prince, Nestor Hipolito Giovannini, Leeonzer Barber, Roberto Dominguez Perez, Paul Carlo, Everardo Armenta Jr, Philippe Michel, Asluddin Umarov, Christophe Girard, Nicky Piper, Darren Zenner, Ka-Dy King and Alejandro Lakatus to be elite...A LEVEL OPPOSITION?

    Are those the kind of fighters that Jones should have been fighting instead of facing the top rated opponents that he did fight...with the exception of Richard Frazier? Tell...explain it to me, but try to have a little documentation to back the claims...which no one, I repeat...NO ONE...has been able to present any kind of documentation to back their bogus, bullshit, lame claims about Jones...that's all I am asking...If you are going to try to present you argument as FACT, then have some valid proof to back your statements!!!! No one has been able to do that...no one!!! Instead they would rather try to turn the debate to me, but that happens when they have nothing to back an comment!

    Let me make sure I get this right WPink...aren't you the same cat who said that Mayweather Jr. would absolutely destroy Aaron Pryor? If that is the case...then enough said!!!
    Last edited by BDeskins; 03-20-2007 at 07:30 PM.

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    What's the point in all this comparing of competition anyway?.It just seems beside the point to me.

    These fighters were among the top men in their division and regardless of who was ducking who or had defeated the better comp, blah blah, it should be disappointing to any boxing fan that they never fought.

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Well people are always saying that Jones fought such weak opposition and that he was supposedly afraid of DM, so shouldn't the overall competition that DM faced be brought into light...especially since it was so, so weak? There really is no comparision of competition...Jones faced way better opposition than DM ever dream of facing and compared to the other fighters that Jones "supposedly" ducked...well, not on of those guys has such an outstanding record of opponents to where he is superior to Jones?

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by ultimo
    . WPink you're wrong about Jones. There will never be another like him. When have you ever seen a talent like Roy? Tarver and Johnson are typical Roy Jones caliber victims from earlier years prime Roy would have little problem with. He just wasn't capable of fending off that cailber any longer. The greatest fighter of all time beaten by bums.
    Whoa there, partner. When I wrote that I was very impressed by Jones but I couldn't quite call him the best of the best, I was informed that no one was rating RJJ as the greatest ever. Let's get our stories straight, now.

    As for the DM controversy . . . I'm of the opinion that Roy would have won that fight fairly cleanly, though as for why Roy never sought him out, I can't shake the image of a Muhammad Ali going after every other man in the division who dared call himself top-flight. Even in his old age, as past it as Roy is now, Ali was eager to share the ring with fucking monsters like Foreman, Frazier, Norton, and Holmes. I think that's why Jones will never gain consensus entrance to the upper-tiers of the sport with men such as Robinson, Hagler, Monzon, Moore, Foster, M. Spinks, and others. Roy will remain a case of awesome physical gifts but unfulfilled accomplishment. PeteLeo.

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    C'mon now Pete

    Don't you realize: "That finish of Pazienza was burnt into the memories of those who saw it and confirms Roy's place at the top of the all time greats."

    Me suspects that the meds are wearing off agian and it is only a matter of days before we reach implosion.......agian.

    Hawk

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    Re: C'mon now Pete

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    Don't you realize: "That finish of Pazienza was burnt into the memories of those who saw it and confirms Roy's place at the top of the all time greats."

    Me suspects that the meds are wearing off agian and it is only a matter of days before we reach implosion.......agian.

    Hawk
    You're bummed out over SUpes knocking out Thor and say I'm one on meds?
    You're funny.

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    Whoa there, partner. When I wrote that I was very impressed by Jones but I couldn't quite call him the best of the best, I was informed that no one was rating RJJ as the greatest ever. Let's get our stories straight, now.

    As for the DM controversy . . . I'm of the opinion that Roy would have won that fight fairly cleanly, though as for why Roy never sought him out, I can't shake the image of a Muhammad Ali going after every other man in the division who dared call himself top-flight. Even in his old age, as past it as Roy is now, Ali was eager to share the ring with fucking monsters like Foreman, Frazier, Norton, and Holmes. I think that's why Jones will never gain consensus entrance to the upper-tiers of the sport with men such as Robinson, Hagler, Monzon, Moore, Foster, M. Spinks, and others. Roy will remain a case of awesome physical gifts but unfulfilled accomplishment. PeteLeo.
    Well he was the best of his decade in the same way Hagler was the best in his.

    One person which I would have been interested in seeing Roy in there with was Nigel because Nigel was hard hitting and fearless. Especially after watching Montell in there with him.

    I think a strong guy who brought a lot of pressure would have a good chance. Bernard tried it but he didn't have the power to hurt Roy. Even Ruiz did well for the first round until the ref got in the way and broke his concentration after the first round. John became tentative because he was worried about the ref. That's when Roy took over and made history.

    You see people? At least I'm honest.

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    bdeskins. and ultimo. I am not arguing Roys Talent or trying to insinuate that DM was great. I never mentioned that in my post. What I am saying is that Roy finishing off Pazienza, who should not have been in boxing at the time, and someone quoting that as reason for him to be considered a all time great, or stating that he was untouchable for 15 years with out bringing into question the facts that he did not fight the best of that time, and Roy resume does not live up the standards of other all time greats.

    Anyone can sit here all day and point at this fighter didnt want to fight him etc.. The issue is. DID ROY JONES JR, FIGHT THE BEST FIGHTERS OF HIS ERA? The answer is a resounding no. He did not fight Nunn, Benn, McCllelan, Eubanks, Collins, DM. Now Roy fans will have excuses as to why roy didnt fight any of them. However the truth is, pointing to Roy greatness and ranting and raving out his spectatacular showings versus b or c level fighters, is like saying the Phoenix Suns in 1992 were awesome and the best as they won more games than anyone, and they scored more points. Hmmmmm did they win the championship. It is like saying Mosly was the best pound per pound fighter in the world, did you see how he finished fighters, then how he showed the great heart and courage of a true champion down the stretch with DLH........HMmmm Mosly could have done the Roy Jones practice of avoiding a troublesome foe like Forrest, and kept his 0. No Mosley fought real top notch fighers. He could have easily fought the ibf or some alphabet champion of the jr middleweight division, some one school teacher (a la Roy Jones) and said he was the mandatory challenger and left it that. No Mosly fought Dlh again, (Did roy fight Toney or Hopkins again?) he moved up and fought Winky Wright (twice) then Varga twice, then came back down and fought a good fighter at welter. Roy fought bum after bum after bum. We continously hear from Roy Jones fanz how he fought all these ex chanpions or ex hall of famers, or now how he finished off Paz. Where is the quality win at? He had two, and as i pointed out Hopkins was a legitimate top fighter, but Hopkins never beat any top fighter who was a top middleweight natually.

    Finally, I am not saying the DM, Nunn etc..deserve all time great status either. The discussions surrounds Roy Jones, and PeteLeo brings up a great point regarding Ali and how he fought monsters, compare that to Roy. Compare Roy avoiding the best, even though he would have been favored to fighters that did not leave the disucssion up to "well he would have beat them because he beat beat b, and b beat c, so he would have destoryed C,... Sorry to many examples of this equation not working. It takes Roy and others such as mayweather now while he still can, to sign the contract or seek out ways to bring to the public fights that we demand, versus fights liek Roy versus harding, or vs Richard hall, or old McCallum, or inept Hill, etc... Some of these fights roy fought were solid contest, but if these fights make of the top fights of your resume, that is where we say Roy's Resume is weak. Sure every fighter has bums, or fighters that are alphabet champs, but Roy since 1994 doesnt have any thing to offset that. Ruiz???? Need i point out the heavyweight champions at that time, and Roy's options and who he chose. Then point out Ruiz's track record, including another loss (while in the ring at least) to anothr middleweight or ex middleweight.

    Sorry please look beyound Roy doing fantasic work on a washed up just had kneck surgery lightweght turned middleweight journeyman in Paziena. That is not impressive.Roy should have stopped him.

  29. #89
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    One needs meds

    to be dismayed by Superman knocking out Thor?

    O........k.

    Btw, who get's to make the final decision on who the fighter of the decade was, for whatever decade?

    Would this not be an opinion?

    Becuase my opinion would be Sugar Ray Leonard for the 80's.

    Maybe we could let a Ring poll decide?

    Hawk

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    Re: Any Roy Jones fans out there?

    Shouldas and wouldas and probablys uderscore the need to guess who was better and who would have won. this usually applies to fantasy thingys regarding fighters from different primes and times and eras.

    Here the subject has varied from Roy Jones as legitimately THE BEST or not (using hypos and guesses) to quantifying if Jones was the real champ or not (which does not require an answer to the first question) to constructing ways in which Jones or DM or others have or have not proven their greatness...or if Jones' Greatness with a capital G is not as elusive and unprovable as the first question.

    Jones likely beats everyone he never fought since he beat everyone he did fight in his prime? It is rather a strange thing to skip the actual fights and presuppose results and then leapfrog to the desired status.

    Jones was an awesome fighting force that cannot be said to have proven beyond doubt his superiority over all weight classes in the same way Ali or others who DID fight everyone have proven it.

    This does not mean those not ready to stamp Jones as unquestionably great dney he likely would have beaten those he didn't fight. In my case (not that anyone seems to care nor should they) it boils down to a lack of anything apporaching proof. It has nothing to do with if Roy should have shouldn't have fought DM or whomever. It has everything to do with he didn't fight the names mentioned. As such, I will never deny Jones did prove quite a bit...but his legend is not as solid as others. this also does not require those who disagree with me to take my view to heart.

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