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Thread: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

  1. #61
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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    Quote Originally Posted by HE Grant

    The fact that he is still headling pay-per-view events is a mystery to me. I had no interest in this fight.

    Boxing is dying beacuse a fight like this is pay-per-view when at best it should be boxing after dark. They are obviously catering to a Hispanic market, period. If they make $, good for all. However, it is simply a much smaller game.

    I disagree complelty. For one I do not belive boxing is "Dying" or willl ever die and I had no problem with this fight being on PPV. Both guys are top tier fighters and it was a great match-up. To say that they do not even belong on HBO world champinship boxing is offensive to these two great wariors.
    The fight was about as good as you are going to get in boxing. If you love boxing these are the type of fights you dream about being made.

    And I feel sorry for anyone that missed. Although they will get a chance to see the replay next week, only with out the great drama of the 7th round you can only get when seeing it for the first time. When you do not know what will happen next.

    This was a true boxing fans fight, not a hispanic fans fight, period.

  2. #62
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    I'm stumped here

    I saw a very tight affair, much in the same manner that Zevl did, with Marco winning by a point based on the screw up by Nady.

    As far as the complaining about Nady's screw up, and it to me is more of an issue of Nady AGAIN screwing up rather than Barrera's getting hosed. And part of that has to do with the jusdges score cards making the 7th round irrelevant.

    IF the cards were more in line with what at least I THOUGHT I saw, then this is an issue to bring up. But when one judge sees it as a 9 point bout and two others had it a 5 point affair, that 3 point swing means NOTHING.

    TO ME, that is the issue here: The score cards. I'm a bit stunned that no one is making more of an issue about that. Agian, no issue with Marquez by a point or even 2 points (and this is WITH scoring as Nady ruled it). It was a close bout with many tough rounds to score. But 5 points of Rafael?

    Guess I need to watch it yet agian (watched it live with the sound off and then agian later that night with the volume up.).

    I rarely see eye to eye with Lederman, but his Card resembled mine very closely. I think we differed on 2 rounds early, essentially a reversal of who he tought won the 2nd and 4th rounds, but other than that, we were dead on.

    Personally, I think the reason Barrera still IS a marquee draw, is because of bouts like last night. It was a corker. What is and is not PAY PER VIEW worthy today IS a problem. But this was IMO going in and obviously afterwards, a bout i was truly interested in. Whether Marco is still at the absolute top of his game or not (I say not). Marco's bouts still are fights to be seen.

    Hawk

  3. #63
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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    I agree that barrera is not the same fighter that he once was. He's definalty showing signs of slowing down. But even with that he is always going to give great fights. I do not think he wins the rematch but it will still be a great fight that I will be very intrested in seeing. It should give Pacquiao a chance to clean up the legal mess he's made of his career, and hopefully it can be cleared up soon.
    Marquez-Pac is the top fight to be made at 130 lbs.

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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    Just a point of interest is that Marquez is 4 1/2 months older than Barerra . Barerra is a bit more shop worn though with 69 bouts , Marquez has 51 bouts.

    Barerra turned pro at 15 ! Marquez at 19 years of age.

    Looking forward to seeing this bout and hopefully Mormeck - Bell one day.

  5. #65
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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    Just to pile on, the scoring was ridiculous. Honestly, I think it was completely irrelevant, however. The fans knew they were seeing a great fight between two terrific champions and I doubt they gave much credence to the scoring. A rematch will be demanded, and justly.

    It surprises me, that after all the wars, all the great fights he's been in, the judges still felt free to disrespect Barrera the way they did. Maybe because Barrera is talking retirement and Marquez is HBO's "next big thing"?

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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    From Doug Fischer's article today: "I thought 116-111 for Marquez was the right score and more than fair to Barrera. Dan Rafael of ESPN.com also scored it 116-111 for Marquez. Tim Smith of the New York Daily News scored it 117-111 for Marquez. Kevin Iole of the Las Vegas Review-Journal, Steve Kim, and Ken Miller of the Los Angeles Sentinel all scored it 118-109 for Marquez."

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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    Quote Originally Posted by DscribeDC
    Just to pile on, the scoring was ridiculous. Honestly, I think it was completely irrelevant, however. The fans knew they were seeing a great fight between two terrific champions and I doubt they gave much credence to the scoring. A rematch will be demanded, and justly.

    It surprises me, that after all the wars, all the great fights he's been in, the judges still felt free to disrespect Barrera the way they did. Maybe because Barrera is talking retirement and Marquez is HBO's "next big thing"?
    No way. HBO's bias during the commentating for Barrera was apparent as it always was. They had no desire to pump up Marquez as a 'new star,' especially since they were complaining about the missed KD for half the fight while Lampley said the point deduction for the flagrant fout was a BAD CALL until finally Steward called him out on it (but it still wasn't acknowledged)

    The worst was during the Barrera-Morales rubbermatch, a fight I scored dead even. Listening to the commentating you would've thought it was a Barrera white-wash.

    Lederman's scoring in some rounds was just not accurate. I can see how some say it was close but I don't see a Barrera victory in this at all.

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    THanks for the score cards Todd.

    I was not drunk when i watched this fight.

    I did not have the volume up during this fight so I was not influenced by Lamps et al and didn't here his drivel until I rewatched it.

    I scored the round BEFORE Lederman's card was presented.

    I had Marco winning by a Point.

    Had the Knockdown been correctly applied, I would have had Marco the winner by a greater margin.

    Maybe I ought to Start drinking.

    Hawk

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    Re: THanks for the score cards Todd.

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    I was not drunk when i watched this fight.

    I did not have the volume up during this fight so I was not influenced by Lamps et al and didn't here his drivel until I rewatched it.

    I scored the round BEFORE Lederman's card was presented.

    I had Marco winning by a Point.

    Had the Knockdown been correctly applied, I would have had Marco the winner by a greater margin.

    Maybe I ought to Start drinking.

    Hawk


    If you go over my scoring of the fight during the round-by-round, I had it exactly the same score as hawk5ins. That was the way I saw it, however I did see many of the rounds as being extremely close, and could have just as easily scored it for Marquez by 2-3 rounds. I don't have a problem with Marquez' win as much as I do the lopsided scoring (especially by the one official). Either way, both fighters gave a great fight and deserve credit for putting it on the line.

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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    I suspect the vast majority saw it much closer than 118-109 and will eagerly anticipate a rematch.

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    ZEVL and DC

    I agree with both of you and all of your points here.

    Frank's scorecard had Marquez winning by two points. I have ZERO issue with that card. The rounds were close. A couple of points either way, I have no issue with.

    But I must ask: Are you two drunk?

    I'm just checking.

    Thanks.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 03-19-2007 at 04:33 PM.

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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    Barrera's going to keep getting HBO dates till he's carried out like Morales. That would be now if he were fighting Paq instead of careful match ups like Marquez who is his age, an excellent point.

    Boxing has become more of a niche than ever and HBO is smart enough to realize it and capitalize on that market. Nothing wrong with it.

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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    I think it's interesting that given poor officiating in two of the fights on this card - The judges in the Hops fight and the Nady stuff up - Yet some internet scribes such as maxboxing are implying its good to be the nephew of the partner in the promotion company so you can get a "w" - Yet the same promotion company can do nothing for one of their actual partners in Barerra?

    Weird.

  14. #74
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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    I felt Barrera won most of the exhanges, except in the later rounds. Somehow I feel Marquez won the fight though. I did not score it.

    Marco is a fuckface. He is as blatant as the devil. What a crooked man. I am glad he lost, eventhough I like him as a fighter.


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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    I had Marquez winning by a score of 114-113.

    JMM seemed like the hungrier guy and was pushing more. He landed, well they both landed, a lot of nice little, subtle shots on the inside. Barrera ran out of gas late.

    You really, really, really had to be paying attention to catch the subtle stuff both guys were landing on the inside.

    I scored the 7th round 9-9. Marquez won the entire round except for the knockdown in the last few seconds. I would have scored it 10-9 for Barrera with the knockdown and not 10-8.

    Except for the one punch that caused the knockdown Barrera lost 99% of the 7th round. Because of the knockdown, I would have scored it for Barrera 10-9. But with the Nady point deduction I had it 9-9, or an even round.

    TKS
    Last edited by TKO Tom; 03-25-2007 at 12:54 PM.

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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    I was hoping Ron Lipton could ptich in here as I sure respect his opinion more than the folks previously mentioned here.
    I thought Barrera won the fight by a couple of points.
    Karl
    Last edited by StingerKarl; 03-25-2007 at 10:58 PM.

  17. #77
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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    In the bout between Juan Manuel Marquez and Marco Antonio
    Barrera, there were a lot of close rounds. Under such
    circumstances, it is very possible Marquez or Barrera CAN win
    the decision by a lopsided score even if the judges are absolutely
    fair. This is especially true if the judges felt that one of the
    fighters had the edge in all of the close rounds.

    I feel that the scoring would be much more fair if more close
    rounds are marked as "even." Of course, many people feel
    that judges should not score a lot of rounds as "even" despite
    the fact that they were very close.

    - Chuck Johnston

  18. #78
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    Chuck

    I have NO ISSUE with your breakdown about how a fight with several close rounds can turn out lopsided.

    Where I a having issues with writers such as Doug Fischer and Steve Kim (To take just two), is that they had Marquez big, but describe the bout as pretty one sided. They have gone out of their way to defend the judges score cards becuase they fell in line with their own.

    What I find funny, is that they initially state that the bout was a scorcher and then spend the rest of the article stating how one sided it was.

    Fischer had his card 8-4 for Marquez, but stated that there were two rounds he gave to Marco that were close and COULD have gone to Juan Manuel.

    So I asked the obvious question of him: Doug, did you NOT also have close rounds for Marquez that you could see going the other way, or was every round you scored for Marquez, clear cut.

    Of course I recieved no response to this question. He was far too intent in making a single point here and had zero interest in looking at this from either the other side or from the vantage point that you broke it down with Chuck.

    I have no problem with defending your own scorecard. But don't present a single side and don't act all put out when one questions you with straight forward questions.

    I had it for Marco by a point. I can see why someone would have it for Marquez closely as well. I UNDERSTAND how one could come up with a scorecard one sided in either direction given how many orunds were indeed close, but I would disagree with them.

    Hawk

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    Re: Chuck

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    I have NO ISSUE with your breakdown about how a fight with several close rounds can turn out lopsided.

    Where I a having issues with writers such as Doug Fischer and Steve Kim (To take just two), is that they had Marquez big, but describe the bout as pretty one sided. They have gone out of their way to defend the judges score cards becuase they fell in line with their own.

    What I find funny, is that they initially state that the bout was a scorcher and then spend the rest of the article stating how one sided it was.

    Fischer had his card 8-4 for Marquez, but stated that there were two rounds he gave to Marco that were close and COULD have gone to Juan Manuel.

    So I asked the obvious question of him: Doug, did you NOT also have close rounds for Marquez that you could see going the other way, or was every round you scored for Marquez, clear cut.

    Of course I recieved no response to this question. He was far too intent in making a single point here and had zero interest in looking at this from either the other side or from the vantage point that you broke it down with Chuck.

    I have no problem with defending your own scorecard. But don't present a single side and don't act all put out when one questions you with straight forward questions.

    I had it for Marco by a point. I can see why someone would have it for Marquez closely as well. I UNDERSTAND how one could come up with a scorecard one sided in either direction given how many orunds were indeed close, but I would disagree with them.

    Hawk

    I go to that site to check out the news wire they have a couple of times a week, but I don't take their writers' opinions on anything seriously, and very seldom read their columns at all.

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    Karl

    I pretty much fall in that category as well.

    What picqued my interest with them as it pertained to the bout in question here, was Fischer's displaying other scorecards of other writers. Supposedly as evidence to back up His and the judges cards.

    So given that, I thought I'd "bother" to "bother" him with what I thought was a pretty unthreatening question, Certainly far less acidic then those he entertains in his Mailbag.

    I dunno. Maybe he felt that if he answered it honestly, it would chip away at his steadfast position. Who knows?

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 03-26-2007 at 08:13 AM.

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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    I think Fischer's analysis/scoring of a fight is often nothing more than an exercise in strengthening his prefight prediction. I can't recall the last time he scored a fight for the opposite guy he picked, when the fight was close. I'm pretty sure he picked Paulie Ayala over Erik Morales, then scored the fight a draw.

  22. #82
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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    Quote Originally Posted by TKO Tom
    I had Marquez winning by a score of 114-113.

    JMM seemed like the hungrier guy and was pushing more. He landed, well they both landed, a lot of nice little, subtle shots on the inside. Barrera ran out of gas late.

    You really, really, really had to be paying attention to catch the subtle stuff both guys were landing on the inside.

    I scored the 7th round 9-9. Marquez won the entire round except for the knockdown in the last few seconds. I would have scored it 10-9 for Barrera with the knockdown and not 10-8.

    Except for the one punch that caused the knockdown Barrera lost 99% of the 7th round. Because of the knockdown, I would have scored it for Barrera 10-9. But with the Nady point deduction I had it 9-9, or an even round.

    TKS
    Finally got around to review this, and the fight was horrible on a number of fronts except for the ring action.

    Both fighters did about as well as they could against each other. Marquez appeared to be slightly stronger down the stretch, but couldn't use it effectively against the sharp and cagey Barrera. Excellent fight for purists, and not bad for thrill seekers.

    IE: the 7th round, I'm not sure what else Barrera could've done to take away Marquez' best round of the fight short of a KO. He countered beautifully and set up the aggressive Marquez who walked straight into the right hand. Nady towers over the action and lets Marquez just sit stooped over holding himself up with his gloves trying to shake the cobbwebbs so he can rise with Barrera standing over him waiting. No Nady, so Barrera says "what the hell," and gives him the little KD push hook to keel him over. Now Nady gets his jiggy rump in gear and makes a big show over the point deduction, when in fact it was Nady's inattention and incompetence that led to the infraction.

    Then you got Lampley trying to make a big deal over any temporary advantage one had over the other and the really bad judging. Then even ol' half blind Larry could see Marquez was KDed, but not the "best trainer in boxing" Steward who not surprisingly anymore misses a lot of action in fights.

    I had a 3-4 point win for Barrera, the major difference being that most rounds were close, but I noticed he would usually take the end of the round convincingly with either a nice counter flurry, sharp boxing and movement, and a little brawling action that also moved Marquez in reverse. I scored the 7th 10-8 because of the no KD/point deduction against Barrera.

    I think Barrera has a good chance against Paq. He won't stand up to the big homerun shot, but he can make it closer this time around and if he makes the distance in as good shape as this Marquez bout, could swing the decision. I'll still pick Manny by KO, but Barrera still has plenty of game to pull an upset.

    Manny would KO Marquez today. Team Marquez already made it clear they haven't wanted that fight. We'll see what develops.

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    Re: Marquez-Barrera Results & Discussion 3/17/07

    asd

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