Home News Current Champs WAIL! Encyclopedia
The Cyber Boxing Zone Message Board
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 218

Thread: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

  1. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    I'm the one in the middle.
    Posts
    9,487
    vCash
    500

    Bump

    hawk

  2. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    92
    vCash
    500

    re larry vs rocky

    my problem here is larry's inconsistency against pressure type fighters ( shavers, snipes, weaver, etc... ) because if rocky has larry in a similar situation IMO larry is chicken feed... BUT i look at the way rocky had trouble with slicksters ( walcott, lastarza neither of whom are on par w/holmes ) and i am forced to ride the fence on this one.

  3. #33
    mike
    Guest

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    funny thing--i see marciano having less trouble with ali than holmes. he may beat ali, may not to holmes. just a guess.

  4. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    92
    vCash
    500

    mike

    why do you think that?

    i would definately make ali a pretty solid fav. over rocky. that jab and fast footwork would be too much i think.

  5. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    577
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by HE Grant
    Rocky, Sam Langford did beat giants and fought a much, much better level of opposition than Marciano ever did.
    sam langford also fought a much better level of opposition than joe louis, larry holmes, james jeffries, jack johnson, george foreman, jack dempsey did!


    sam did beat alot of giants. marciano beat decent tough giant names johnny skhor who was really 6'5(not 6'2 as boxrec listed). i think HE you are totally unfair to marciano, and i will respond to your comments about marciano not matching up well vs bigger heavyweights and not carrying extra weight. marciano matched up fantasticlly stylistically with the big guys and he easily had the bone structure and body to carry extra weight, in fact rocky naturally weighed well over 200lb and if it werent for his incredible 1950s training regime he would have weighed in much heavier for fights.
    Last edited by Elmer Ray; 04-04-2007 at 09:40 PM.

  6. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    577
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    both holmes and rocky have flaws and stlylistic issues with eachothers style .......this is why it would be such a great fight

  7. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,615
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    It ought to be noted that Larry had about 9 seconds of trouble with Shavers over 2 fights.
    -----------

    Ali would, IMO, bust up, hurt and stop Marciano. Rocky would not be destroyed of course, but he didn't throw those long blows like Frazier did...and I wonder how Joe himself would do against 1967 Ali.

    -----------

    Unskilled giants. total disagreement there..kind of a throw-away tag to me.

    IF Rocky weighed more, I wonder, why would that help him?

  8. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    92
    vCash
    500

    Re: Sharkey

    point taken, but larry was lucky shavers didn't have it in him to finish the job. my point was that if rocky had landed a bomb on larry ( which is something larry was susceptible to ) similar to the shavers situation he is toast.

  9. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    92
    vCash
    500

    ali - rocky

    i agree totally with your ali - rocky analysis.

  10. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,615
    vCash
    500

    Re: Sharkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Maclaurin
    point taken, but larry was lucky shavers didn't have it in him to finish the job. my point was that if rocky had landed a bomb on larry ( which is something larry was susceptible to ) similar to the shavers situation he is toast.
    Oh that is indeed true. I just have difficulty giving Rocky that default and running with it. Mainly, because someone will reply, "Larry wouldn't fight Rocky so carelessly." which is true BUT instead of ascribing a benefit to the Rock (ie: He will land a bomb and then what) the reverse gives a benefit to Larry (Larry won't allow it because he is careful)... leading us back to I don't know where.

    I will say, if Rocky was more like Shavers, I would see that as apt and likely something Larry would face: danger time. Instead I see Larry dealing with getting buzzed, hurt bad a few times, but not facing a KO here or there. But I can't argue it too vigorously.

    It's like this to me, if Spoon had Larry in as much trouble as Shavers did, HE stops him too...along with many others. My problem on Larry's end was that he was likely to like to go to war... and if Rocky is around by round 11 or 12, Larry could be in trouble...especially if they fight in fantasy land of the 1950's.

  11. #41
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    577
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    i actually take back my retort about sam beating "unskilled" giants after reviewing the situation further. but i dont see why its such a big deal to beat a giant, if marciano had fought and destroyed 7'2 320lb ewart potgeiter, would u give him more credit?

  12. #42
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    577
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    no one has yet to comment about larry holmes getting in slugging matches whenever he got hurt. would this spell his doom vs rocky? if he tried that vs marciano he would get knocked out.

  13. #43
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,615
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    no one has yet to comment about larry holmes getting in slugging matches whenever he got hurt. would this spell his doom vs rocky? if he tried that vs marciano he would get knocked out.
    From my previous post: My problem on Larry's end was that he was likely to like to go to war... and if Rocky is around by round 11 or 12, Larry could be in trouble...especially if they fight in fantasy land of the 1950's.

  14. #44
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,438
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkey
    IF Rocky weighed more, I wonder, why would that help him?
    Sharkey, to me the issue is not weight but overall size; a 5'10" / 67" reach Rocky is still 5'10" with 67" reach regardless of whether he weighed 185 pounds or 215 pounds. The added weight would have made him harder to push around, but the longer reach of Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Lewis et al would have been quite difficult to overcome.

  15. #45
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    I'm the one in the middle.
    Posts
    9,487
    vCash
    500

    Sharkey

    WHo is that "someone" you are referring to?

    Hawk

  16. #46
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,615
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    I was referring to a guy named 'Chris'...but a guy named 'Jeff' also applies if I am not mistaken.

    They're two cool dudes on top of everything else they have going for them.

  17. #47
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,783
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    What I meant was that Langford was a short guy and beat giants. Ditto for Tyson. Why not Marciano who carries with him tremendous assets as did Tyson and Langford. All this stuff on Holmes beating Rocky is mostly because Larry Holmes is bigger. If he was smaller there would be no disscussion here because hed be not even Ezzard Charles OR Walcott. If you pick Holmes you figure that Rocky wouldnt get past the jab. Okay. If you think that fine. I say Rocky cant be jabbed all nite long without the jabber getting beat up, with Rocky getting inside and banging away and hurting. Remember we are talking about fifteen rounds here. Thats a long time to face Rocky's pressure. Larry IMO wouldnt ever make it. He never ever faced anyone with Rockys drive or power over the long haul. I dont think Larry would have beaten Joe Frazier either. I dont think a prime Holmes would have done much better against Tyson either. Guys like this, well you have to deal with a awful lot to beat them. As good as Ali was in Frazier one, he just couldnt win. He got decked late. Its hard to hold these super human guys off all nite. Mariciano was in that class.
    Marciano might be too strong for the early Ali who might have been not ready for the Rocks blasting power. The Ali who fought Chuvalo was a great fighter and his movement might have gotten him through. I think the later Ali would have been in trouble over the long haul. But Alis great chin gives him a chance against anybody. This would be a great fight.
    Again only Sonny in my mind handles Rocky. At his best he was a smart boxer and he would box Rocky all nite and never engage him in any way. That way he could win. If he gets in a slugging match....But I dont think he would.
    See in my mind I see Sonny as a much better boxer than Larry Holmes.
    Remember these are my opinions and I respect other opinions. But Rocky in my mind would destroy larry Holmes and never ever let him off the hook.

  18. #48
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,783
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    What I meant was that Langford was a short guy and beat giants. Ditto for Tyson. Why not Marciano who carries with him tremendous assets as did Tyson and Langford. All this stuff on Holmes beating Rocky is mostly because Larry Holmes is bigger. If he was smaller there would be no disscussion here because hed be not even Ezzard Charles OR Walcott. If you pick Holmes you figure that Rocky wouldnt get past the jab. Okay. If you think that fine. I say Rocky cant be jabbed all nite long without the jabber getting beat up, with Rocky getting inside and banging away and hurting. Remember we are talking about fifteen rounds here. Thats a long time to face Rocky's pressure. Larry IMO wouldnt ever make it. He never ever faced anyone with Rockys drive or power over the long haul. I dont think Larry would have beaten Joe Frazier either. I dont think a prime Holmes would have done much better against Tyson either. Guys like this, well you have to deal with a awful lot to beat them. As good as Ali was in Frazier one, he just couldnt win. He got decked late. Its hard to hold these super human guys off all nite. Mariciano was in that class.
    Marciano might be too strong for the early Ali who might have been not ready for the Rocks blasting power. The Ali who fought Chuvalo was a great fighter and his movement might have gotten him through. I think the later Ali would have been in trouble over the long haul. But Alis great chin gives him a chance against anybody. This would be a great fight.
    Again only Sonny in my mind handles Rocky. At his best he was a smart boxer and he would box Rocky all nite and never engage him in any way. That way he could win. If he gets in a slugging match....But I dont think he would.
    See in my mind I see Sonny as a much better boxer than Larry Holmes.
    Remember these are my opinions and I respect other opinions. But Rocky in my mind would destroy larry Holmes and never ever let him off the hook.

  19. #49
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    I'm the one in the middle.
    Posts
    9,487
    vCash
    500

    I want it made EXTREMELY Clear

    That my basis for Holmes beating Marciano is NOT based on Size as my previous post details.

    Personally, I find it kind of silly that Rocky is mythologized to the point that if Holmes and Rocky were the same size, that it is percieved that Rocky blows him out of the water. Becuase "anyone Rocky's size, get's taken apart. You HAVE to have physical advantages just to enter into the conversation about beating Rocky". Bull Puckey.

    Rocky STRUGGLED with fighters that WERE his size and that were NOT in thier primes. If Holmes is in his prime and is equvilant in size, I take him. Straight up, I take him rather one sidedly becuase of the Speed, Skills, Will AND Size.

    Remember it's 15 rounds? Why would this be an issue for Larry Holmes? When has Holmes NOT been able to handle 15 rounds?

    Rocky is legendary for the pressure he applies. But it is almost being suggested that Rocky is just going to find himself in the 13th, 14th and 15th rounds without having taken ANY amount of offense coming at HIM.

    Is Larry just going to stand there and let Rocky take batting practice on him? Or MIGHT, Larry be utilizing HIS strengths, which include a nearly peerless jab, a solid right hand, an EXCELLENT uppercut, Speed that rivals ANY opponent Rocky has ever faced, and a Pride that is every bit the equal to what Rocky had.

    A Prime Larry Holmes is NOT an aged blown up Light heavy in Archie Moore. He is not the version of Ezzard Charles that Rocky faced. And he is NOT Jersey Joe Walcott. He was better than those versions of those fighters. And this opinion is NOT based ONLY on size.

    And it is MY opinion, that Holmes beats Marciano. And I don't think I have broken any commandments by having this opinion either.

    Hawk

  20. #50
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,272
    vCash
    500

    Re: To echo He

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    Let me add that Langford also was clearly beaten by a much larger Jack Johnson.

    Personally I think Sam was superior to Rocky and Holmeswasbetter than Jack.

    And I know Larry wouldn't carry Rocky. He'd be all business.

    And IMO the end result woukd display this. Again. talking straight up.

    LB for LB ismuch more competitive.

    Hawk
    Wow, I know you were a Holmes fan growing up, but whoa

    Holmes better skills than Liston? How? Liston actually got hit much less than Larry ever did . . Liston had great upper body and head movement, and while both were great jabbers and Larry was faster, Liston was more accurate and a better judger of distance (not to mention way more heavy-handed)

    Liston vs some of the guys Holmes had issues with (Snipes, Weaver . .even Witherspoon)

    Liston outboxes and bludgeons them all.


    I more I re-watch Holmes, I admire his heart, speed, foot work, punch selection, and incredible recuperative skills.

    But his big hole, was his defense. Compared to the other all time great HWs (Ali, Johnson, even Louis) it was just not up on that level. He tried to avoid punches like a young Ali, but he just didn't have the same reflexes and natural speed.

    I think Marciano-Holmes is a fairly even matchup and I wouldn't place $ on either man.

    But I just wanted to state that point.

  21. #51
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    I'm the one in the middle.
    Posts
    9,487
    vCash
    500

    So you are telling me

    That Holmes' defense was inferior to Listons and was also inferior to Joe Louis's?

    And my opinon of Holmes and Holmes having a superior D to these two is based only on Me being a Holmes fan?

    ...........................

    I think this is where I step away from the conversation and let everyone know that we all have our own opinions. Please respect mine and I will respect yours.

    It's either that or the vein in my forehead bursts wide open.

    Hawk

  22. #52
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    577
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    A Prime Larry Holmes is NOT an aged blown up Light heavy in Archie Moore. He is not the version of Ezzard Charles that Rocky faced. And he is NOT Jersey Joe Walcott. He was better than those versions of those fighters. And this opinion is NOT based ONLY on size.

    you keep bringing up opponents but your forget holmes struggled vastly beating the best fighters he fought in his prime. it works both ways.


    holmes never faced a fighter with the style of a peak rocky marciano. holmes had a history of having trouble with righthanded punchers, and had a history of trying to brawl whenever he got hurt( a no-no to do vs rocky). weavers strength and presssure gave holmes problems, which is nowhere near the punchrate, workrate, pressure of a tiger marciano.



    with all of the flaws ur picking out about rocky, you can do the same with holmes

  23. #53
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    I'm the one in the middle.
    Posts
    9,487
    vCash
    500

    You can pick out flaws in every fighter

    Elmer, I have more than once pointed to the flaws that Holmes has.

    For some reason this has become Holmes being on trial now. The easier to answer straightfoward questions about Rocky I presume. Instead of answers to questions, I get questions. "What about.....?"

    Marciano is the one that is being unecessarily mythologized here.

    "No one could over come Rocky's pressure. The ONLY reason a Holmes, Foreman and ALi cold beat Rocky was due to size. If they were the same size, Rocky is unbeatable."

    I find this irrationality a bit comical.

    How dare I suggest that I beleive Holmes could beat Marciano?

    And how dare I give my reasons for how I think it could happen.

    Don't I know that this is Marciano. 49-0-0 Marciano? Never beaten.........

    Agian, I think it's best that I leave this with: you have your opinions, and I have mine.

    Hawk

  24. #54
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    A shed in someones backyard in London, England
    Posts
    179
    vCash
    500

    Re: So you are telling me

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    That Holmes' defense was inferior to Listons and was also inferior to Joe Louis's?

    And my opinon of Holmes and Holmes having a superior D to these two is based only on Me being a Holmes fan?

    ...........................

    I think this is where I step away from the conversation and let everyone know that we all have our own opinions. Please respect mine and I will respect yours.

    It's either that or the vein in my forehead bursts wide open.

    Hawk
    I have to agree with you regarding Holmes, he had far better movement and reflexes than Louis and Liston... the fact that he was still able to operate into his late 40s at world class level bares out the fact that he was one of the cleverist of the heavyweight greats.... I have to laugh really when people pick Marcinao to beat either Ali or Holmes... we're talking about a guy who struggled with a 42 year old 175 pound champ and who struggled with aging Walcott, Charles and Louis even... hell if a faded Charles can give Marciano hell how on earth would he have beaten a prime Ali or Holmes??... answer, ....he wouldnt, ....he wouldnt even come close imo... with all due respect I think Marcianos greatest asset is the myth that surrounds him, watch his fights and you see an incredibly gutsy, strong but awkward and very beatable fighter... the fact that he was not beaten does not make him unbeatable by any means... had he gone for more than 6 defences then I think he would have been beaten pretty soon....
    Last edited by fatcity; 04-06-2007 at 02:37 PM.

  25. #55
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,407
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Marciano fans are never going to give in one inch to reality regarding their man. Nothing is going to change this.

    Marciano would knock out Foreman.
    Marciano would knock out Ali.
    Marciano hit harder than any other heavyweight ever.
    Marciano was never hurt.
    Marciano never got tired.
    Marciano threw more punches than any other heavyweight.

    Right. Whatever.

    I say he was a great warrior and would have been a super tough fight for any guy close to his size. Not that he beats them all but would be right in there. That being said I feel without question because of the fact he retired undefeated, his beautiful KO of Walcott, his guts, his being white and Italian he has become the most overated heavyweight champion in history.

    That's just my opinion and I say it with all the respect in the world for the guy.

  26. #56
    mike
    Guest

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    so probably was ali.

  27. #57
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    I'm the one in the middle.
    Posts
    9,487
    vCash
    500

    I'll Assume Mike

    That for Ali, it wasn't becuase he "retired undefeated, his beautiful KO of Walcott, his guts, his being white and Italian"

    Hawk

  28. #58
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,783
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Fight films and pics of Rocky's foes tell the story. They all end up battered and beaten. Rocky doesnt need to be Italian or White to make a difference. Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, Archie Moore and a few others close to Rock's bombs and disapointed that they didnt crack Rocks chin or wear him down and felt what it felt like to BE WORE DOWN by Rock speaks that he is not overrated.
    Larry Holmes fought and was successful into his late ages because the competition wasnt there. At 36 when he faced Tyson he got clobbered. Old guys rarely get by the best that the day has to offer if the best is great or even near great.
    All we have here is opinion-But in mine, Larry Holmes would neither beat Rocky, Frazier, or Tyson. He couldnt hold them off. He boxed well, and fought boxers well. But these kinds of pressure fighters would force him into territory that would not lend to his best effort. He had a championship heart and work ethic, but someones got to lose when two good fighters fight.
    That being said let us not forget the sterling way Rocky held his title, the humble champ he was considering his ability, and what a great sportsman he was. Larry Holmes fails to measure up to Rock in these ways as well. THATS
    the reason Rocky Marciano is held up in a way Larry Holmes will never be. Class.........................

  29. #59
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    I'm the one in the middle.
    Posts
    9,487
    vCash
    500

    WHo is talking about

    an Aged Larry Holmes?

    I'm talking Prime Version of Holmes.

    I'm not talking about a 38 year old Version of Larry (Yes Larry was 38 when he faced Tyson. And he was inactive for 21 mos. And he was well past his peak.). Or 40 or older.

    I'm not talking about a past his prime Larry Holmes either. I'm talking about Holmes at his very best.

    And I'm not talking about a blown up light heavyweight either. I'm talking about a heavyweight version of Larry Holmes matching up with Marciano. Either straight up or more of a "pound for pound" weight matchup with Marciano.

    If we think Larry Holmes is going to end up looking like Carmine Vingo did, Simply becuase that's what a Marciano opponent looked like at the end of the bout....Well, I think it would be equally irresponsible of me to state that Marciano would end up looking like Scott Frank or Scott Ledoux, becuase that's what a Larry Holmes opponent looked like at the end of the bout.

    Oh, BTW, class doesn't win you fights. Skills do.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 04-09-2007 at 12:12 PM.

  30. #60
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,272
    vCash
    500

    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by naf2003
    Joe Calzaghe is probably about the same size as Rocky Marciano. He weighs in at 168 a day prior to fighting and is about 5-11. By fight night he is probably about Mariciano's weight and Joe walks around at about 200.

    Calzaghe is a tough, well conditioned. busy fighter like Marciano, but how many would bet on him against a prime Larry Holmes or a W.Klitschko, or Lennox Lewis etc?

    Haha, that is a ludricous statement.

    Marciano's 187 was what he weighed after a training regimen that Calzaghe, all due respect, probably has nightmares over.

    Marciano was a small, but real Heavyweight. Rocky would have NEVER been able to make it down to 175 and be healthy, let alone weigh 168 pounds.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
News Current Champs WAIL! Encyclopedia Links Home