Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

[Roberto Aqui]

Oh, BTW, class doesn't win you fights. Skills do.

Hawk

Back to class for you. If skills always won fights, the most skilled would always win. They don't, never have, and never will. Way too many other factors.

Holmes was probably at his best against Norton and squeaked out a SD against a fading legend. Rocky was at his best in the Charles/Walcott rematches and the Moore bout.

Holmes has most of the physical advantages, but Rocky has most of the intangibles. It's a close bout that could swing either way based on circumstance and I wouldn't bet it up any more than I would a crapshoot.

[hawk5ins]

Becuase a Fighter is CLASSY, he wins fights?

Understand when I State SKILLS, I am talking the style and skill sets that a fighter uses to it's utmost effectiveness.

Marciano and Ali posssessed very different skill sets. But both Used THEIR skills to get the most out of the ability they had.

Class, is NOT a skill set. Nor is it punching power. Or Durability. Or Resistance to cuts. Or Defense. Or Hand speed. Or Ring generalship. Or effective aggression.

Mickey Ward HAD Class. Zab Judah lacks Class.

How'd that one turn out?

Class is not anything that can be quantified into how good a fighter is or isn;t.

Holmes had no class was a comment made about Larry becuase Holmes said Rocky couldn't carry his jockstrap.

Class or Crass is irrelevant. It has very little bearing on deciding who could beat who or who was better than who. And Class isn't an intangible either.

That I actually needed to explain this using picture, analogies, etc......

Sheesh.

Hawk

[hagler04]

That Holmes' defense was inferior to Listons and was also inferior to Joe Louis's?

And my opinon of Holmes and Holmes having a superior D to these two is based only on Me being a Holmes fan?

...........................

I think this is where I step away from the conversation and let everyone know that we all have our own opinions. Please respect mine and I will respect yours.

It's either that or the vein in my forehead bursts wide open.

Hawk

I don't know if you're being saracastic or WAY over-sensitive. I mentioned that you were a Holmes fan b/c you had stated it in previous posts.

I put forth my reasons for Liston having a better defense than Holmes (despite Holmes of course being the naturally quicker man of hand and foot)

If you disagree state your reasons and citations.

[hawk5ins]

Over-sensitive and I disagree with you.

I'd rather not debate this one with you.

I'm being honest at least.

The only thing I WILL add to this about Liston's defensive capabilites are this: It is MY opinion, that the most effective defensive tool that Liston had was his ability to scare the ever living sh*t out of his opponent.

See Hags? What is the point in dragging this out with me?

Hawk

[silk degrees]

ray,

I was looking more at the big, slugger types who would use size and strength to overwhelm rocky as per He's point. I would favor Ali over Rocky, but I think rocky vs larry would be even money.

how about rocky vs: johnson, dempsey, tunney, louis, frazier,and tyson?

I like johnson by dec., dempsey by KO3, tunney by dec., louis by TKO7, marciano KO9, and tyson KO3. what do you think ray?

I have to chime in on this; tyson's whole career has been build on two things. First, he feasted on opponents who were afraid of him, and could not really defend themselves. Second, Jacobs and Cayton carefully handpicked Tyson's opponents, Jacobs who even quoted as calling another matchmaker who put Tyson in with an opponent "the king of s***'. Tyson often feasted on light heavies, and cruiserweights during his one round knockout days, and when faced with people who weren't afraid of him, he backed down and choked. WE SHOULD NEVER MENTION TYSON WITH THE GREATS

[silk degrees]

It ought to be noted that Larry had about 9 seconds of trouble with Shavers over 2 fights.
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Ali would, IMO, bust up, hurt and stop Marciano. Rocky would not be destroyed of course, but he didn't throw those long blows like Frazier did...and I wonder how Joe himself would do against 1967 Ali.

-----------

Unskilled giants. total disagreement there..kind of a throw-away tag to me.

IF Rocky weighed more, I wonder, why would that help him?

I disagree with ali busting up marciano, if you look at the terrell, patterson 1, and folley fights of ali's early career, he would have happily and easily outpointed marciano, his legs would have been strong enough to carry him 15 rounds against rocky. If and when rocky would have bored in, ali would have just grabbed and clutched, unlike holmes, who would have perhaps ran around, but ended up getting caught with one of rocky's big one, just ask snipes, and shavers. Rocky would have put holmes away

[Sharkey]

The Ali point can be either figuratively or literally..whatver you choose.

It is my opinion Rocky is not necessarily going to be in a position to put Holmes away. When Holmes decks Rocky in round one, since Rocky had a tendency to be vulnerable early (ask Walcott, Moore) I suppose he finishes him?

[hawk5ins]

running around when He got Dropped by Snipes and Shavers? And were the punches that landed on Holmes, somehow non-quality punches?

ANd given that Holmes DID get up and go on to KO Snipes and Shavers, Am I allowed to conclude that becuase Rocky was dropped by a 40 something lightheavyweight in Archie Moore (by no means a devastating puncher at Heavyweight) and by a 38 year old Walcott, that Holmes would have done exactly the same thing, and on top of that, gone on to finish off Marciano?

Or let me take this a step further? Does Holmes get knocked down by Walcott or Moore? Or even a step further? If it is Shavers landing HIS punch on Rocky or Snipes landing perhaps the best punch HE ever threw, on Rocky's oft unprotected jaw are we CERTAIN that Rocky bounces back up?

How can anyone state it is a certainty either way you answer these questions?

Well, you can't. And likewise, there is no certainty in stating that becuase Holmes was dropped by a frightening delivered from Earnie Shavers, that Marciano, without question, finishes off Holmes.

You can THEORIZE this. But there are NO definites here other than Holmes, like Marciano, got up to KO his above referenced opponents, when he was dropped.

One might want to read as much into the rise (of both Holmes and Marciano) as the falls.

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

And as evidenced in the many disagreements we have had on this site, Sharkey and I are NOT the same poster.

" When Holmes decks Rocky in round one, since Rocky had a tendency to be vulnerable early (ask Walcott, Moore) I suppose he finishes him?" Sharkey

"Am I allowed to conclude that becuase Rocky was dropped by a 40 something lightheavyweight in Archie Moore (by no means a devastating puncher at Heavyweight) and by a 38 year old Walcott, that Holmes would have done exactly the same thing, and on top of that, gone on to finish off Marciano?" Hawk

Sharkey get's to the point a lot more directly than I can. There's one difference.

Hawk

[HE Grant]

This post , while a bit fun, is getting silly.

Marciano was a short, short armed, slugger with a heck of a punch, average speed and fairly easy to hit. His legend is built around victories over shot or semi-shot former greats. There is no question that his sum total equaled up to being a great fighter but his fans place him in an over the top , fantasy catagory.

Watch his fights. Rocky got hit. Rocky got tired. Rocky bled real blood and Rocky got hurt. I don't know why guys cannot give him the true respect he deserves without going over the top about him.

How in the world is a 5'11" (maybe) slugger, 185 pounds, short arms, hitable and a bleeder going to match up against much bigger, highly skilled guys? It's asking too much. Enough with the chin and heart and conditioning ... He had no bigger heart than Ali, Holmes Louis or Frazier. They all shared top world championship caliber stamina. Two other destroyers, Liston and Foreman, had styles and advantages that would have been disasters for Marciano. Stanley Ketchel was an all time great middleweight. So was Marvin Hagler. So was Carlos Monzon. Does anyone here pick any of them over Marciano? They would not because it would be asking too much of those guys. IT would be the exact same to have Marciano go against a Liston or Foreman ...

Marciano was a great champion and let's leave it at that.

same old, same old ...

[greek1237]

So if Marciano cant stand a chance against the Lewis's and worse the Kilts and Ruiz's of the heavyweight divsion. Than would we expect Louis, Dempsey, and Johnson to fail also in this dream bid?? I give Rocky a good chance against any one. Yes he could lose to Holmes, but there is the chance Rocky could finshing on top. It will be a close fight imo.

[hawk5ins]

I don't think Size equals talent.

THere are enough glaring weaknesses in the fighters you listed, Lennox Lewis aside (although he has had his chin let him down twice, quite badly), that Rocky, Louis, Johnson and Dempsey IMO would be favored over them.

Kilt brothers and Ruiz are NOT Foreman, Liston, Ali and Holmes.

And I don't think anyone is suggesting Marciano WOULD lose to fighters such as that. If they are, I missed the posts.

Holmes, Ali, Liston and Foreman, in addition to being larger fighters, were also GREAT fighters.

Size doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Size and talent, mean quite a bit. Size and Greatness, mean even more.

Lewis is on the cusp here with greatness. To group him in with Vlad, Wlad and Ruiz, is an insult to Lewis IMO.

Hawk

[Elmer Ray]

rocky used to run 12-15 miles a day and walk 20 more miles a day. he was ripped to shreds, his training camp was gruelling, he had a very hard time getting under 190lb no way he ever could make 168lb without dying. marciano weighed in for 5 fights over 190lb.

anyone knows(im a college wrestler) that lots of running make u lose weight fast. i ran 3-4 miles a day during the season and im in great shape and still cut alot of weight. now rocky running 15 miles a day plus walking 20 more and he STILL wasnt able to get under 185lb, tells me he cant possibly lose more than that.

peter marcianos told me rocky used to naturally weigh 210lb while champion. rocky had a big build it was a huge sacrfrice just for him to get below 190lb

[Roberto Aqui]

Naf wants Rocky to sweat out 20 lbs of water and then fight Calzaghe though. We don't know how effective Rocky or any heavy would've been making weight limits like that, but more importantly Naffy poses an invalid question because he doesn't understand history.

In Rocky's day trainers usually dried out their fighters the day of the fight. Water was considered an enemy so most of the heavies up to and past the first Foreman era were already dried out at least 5-10 lbs, maybe more for a big guy like Foreman when they stepped into the ring. What's more impressive is the performances turned in by these dehydrated warriors.

It was this practice which was a proven way to cut weight but which is also very dangerous to health which led to modern day weighins being held 36 hrs before the fight. This allows fighters to rehydrate and rebalance their system.

Of course there is no balancing of many of the modern day fans who will insist Rocky was just a cruiser or that he could fight as a middleweight. Calzaghe would never make the middleweight limit in Rocky's day and would have to fight as a LH, so eventually he might match up with the heavy champ of the day like so many LHs did. Now that is a legit matchup that might resemble the Conn/Louis, Johnson/Obrien, Jeffries/Fitz series, but c'mon, let's keep it real or it just becomes a joke.

[hawk5ins]

For every Duran, Robinson (at 147) and Lamotta, fighters who either were struggling to maintain their weight class becuase of out of the ring bad eating habit, they were growing out of the weight class, or they simply were naturally a bigger fighter, there were numerous Emile Griffith's and Tony Zales and yes Rocky Marciano's who were simply in great shape during most of their career and never HAD to dry out or cut weight. And Duran and Robby didn't battle the bulge fore 135 and 147 EVERY bout. But they did have more than a few that was the case.

Day before weighins initially had nothing to do with protecting a fighter. It was a promotional tactic first introduced by DOn King to garner more publicity for the fight. The event BEFORE the event if you will.

Once they (day before weighins) began popping up more frequently, commisions started adopting them as a smoke screen safety measure. The number of fighters abusing their bodies to the point that they were coming in to the ring dangerously dehydrated (in day of fight weighin bouts) was a far smaller number than it actually is today.

The false sense of security that you can replenish the body and regain full strength within a 24 hour span has led to more dangers than was ever the case prior to this "safety measure". Of course it also has led to fighters competing in unanatural classes and showing up the day of the fight, as many as 3 weight classes heavier. This is a Safety measure?

And Marciano purposely drying out days before his bout, for the sole purpose of shedding water? Well Rocky did train like a spartan (though i'm not sure of the acuracy of his running mini marathons everyday during training camp...), so I'm not sure of the necessity of this last min scramble to shed a few more pounds. And at heavyweight, it makes even less sense if you think about it.

I wouldn't mind checking out a source or two that describes this practice of Rocky's if it can be pointed out to me.

Understand, I think the Calzhage comaprison doesn't make a whole lot of snese either. But some of this stuf that is being brough out to refute the comparison is equally as ridiculous.

Hawk.

[Dino1]

Here is a story we should consider when discussing Marciano. About twelve or so years ago, my wife and I were at an amateur boxing show at the Elks Club in Queens, NY. We were speaking to Sandy Saddler the great former champion and original assistant trainer to George Foreman when he won the championship. Note: Dick Saddler was Foreman's manager and chief trainer and as far as I know these Saddlers are unrelated. It was Sandy Saddler who showed fine-tunded Foreman's style along with Archie Moore. Anyway, I asked Saddler about Foreman and he told me what a hard puncher he was. I asked him who he thought would have won in an imaginery matchup between Foreman and Marciano. To my surprise, he said Marciano would have won. He said both men would have gone down, but Rocky would have gotten up to beat Foreman. I told the champ that I respectfully disagree with him, but he just smiled and said "I think I am right". And that is from a man who actually trained Foreman. I still disagre with Sandy, but it is food for thought. I might add that Sandy was a find old school gentleman and very kind to my wife.

[greek1237]

Marciano NEVER weight 178 pounds. He was more in the 185-190 range. But he train down to that weight. Rember fights were 15 rounds, not 12. So he might have wanted to shred the extral pounds for the stimia for 15 rounds. It seems most champs in Marciano's day and back were either 200 pounds or less. Dempsey weight 190. Louis 200 or 190 on some nights. Mostly there was only say a 5 pounds differnt between Dempsey and Marciano or Louis.

[Roberto Aqui]

I understand the Saddler's were related. Remember, George thought they drugged him and sacked his entire staff after the Ali loss. Losing a big meal ticket combined with accusations that serious might affect anyone's opinion of George.

Naffy, Naffy, Naffy, you really should study up. Fighters were supposed to rinse the blood out of their mouths and spit the contents into the bucket. Sure, after being dried out for 24 hrs the fighters were gonna swallow some, but that don't change how they were trained and fought which often included imbibing spirits in the ring too.

As I recall, after the Mancini/Kim fight, the ABCs started to take a harder look at their rules and take medical testimony and many changes were made. Of course they are gonna promote the changes. Don King would promote a Don Imus/Larry Merchant bout with the winner to meet his grandson if he could get it sanctioned.

Facts are what they are and I can't help anyone who denies history. You might as well deny the US started off as an English colony and poke your eyes out as well. The history of physical training is an interesting one filled with trial and error and fanciful and often dangerous practices.

[hawk5ins]

Dick Sadler

Sandy Saddler.

Sandy's invlovement with Foreman was on a much smaller scale than Moore's or Sadler's.

And Mancini Kim was a key fight in going from 15 rounds to 12 rounds. But nothing to do with day before weighins.

It was a promotional tool. Whihc was then turned into an well intentioned but poorly thought out "safety tool". There were some key injuries and Deaths in Britain (Micheal Watson Injury being one of them) that led their commisions to begin employing MANDATORY day before weighins.

Soon there after it became mandatory in the US and around the world.

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

Do not agree with Naf's Clazaghe Marciano arguement. Not in the least.

But I am equally as interested as he is regarding this "drying out" just prior to the fight that Roberto is introducing here.

Like Naf, I find this to be rather absurd and I also would like to see some sources that would back up this viewpoint that trainers in the 50's and earlier supposedly had.

Hawk

[10-8]

It certainly makes sense for the fighters who need to make weight, in which case heavyweights need not apply.

Having said that I have read George Foreman blaming his loss to Ali on his trainers for drying him out prior to the fight.

Add that to the lengthy excuses column George has used to explain away the loss to Ali.

Joe Louis blamed his performance in the first Conn fight for being weakened by trying to come in under 200 lbs. I'm not sure if water deprevation was the culprit there or not.

[TKO11]

In Foreman's auto-bio, he says in more than one place that his training team encouraged him not necessarily to dry out, but certainly to drink as little water as possible in the 24 hours before a fight. Something about how they thought excessive sweating actually made you more tired.

[kikibalt]

I used to dry out my boys starting the nite before the fight when we used to have the weight in's on the day of the fight (Chew gum and spit out the saliva) to make sure they made the weight on the contract, I would let them go to bed one lbs. over the weight limit and in the morning they would be right on weight, but I would still dry them out a bit.

Frank

[Juan C Ayllon]

I'm not talking about a 38 year old Version of Larry (Yes Larry was 38 when he faced Tyson. And he was inactive for 21 mos. And he was well past his peak.). Or 40 or older.

And, let's not forget: from what I understand, Holmes was given roughly two weeks notice to fight Tyson.

That's not much time for an aged fighter to get ready for a prime champion, much less a fighter of a prime Tyson.

Just my thoughts,


Juan C. Ayllon

[Sharkey]

I used to dry out my boys starting the nite before the fight when we used to have the weight in's on the day of the fight (Chew gum and spit out the saliva) to make sure they made the weight on the contract, I would let them go to bed one lbs. over the weight limit and in the morning they would be right on weight, but I would still dry them out a bit.

Frank

So, Frank, the drying out was specificaly to make weight... the avoidance of water wasn't to benefit them or because water supposedly would make you lethargic or tired. Do I understand that correctly?

[Juan C Ayllon]

Joe Calzaghe is probably about the same size as Rocky Marciano. He weighs in at 168 a day prior to fighting and is about 5-11. By fight night he is probably about Mariciano's weight and Joe walks around at about 200.

Calzaghe is a tough, well conditioned. busy fighter like Marciano, but how many would bet on him against a prime Larry Holmes or a W.Klitschko, or Lennox Lewis etc?

So, who wins between Calzaghe and Marciano?

Just kidding. As we know, at one point, Oscar De La Hoya was walking around at about 185. However, none of us would pick him to beat cruiser champs Jean Mormeck or O'Neal Bell head-to-head. Walking around weight is one thing, but best fighting weight is another, as Diego Corrales found out.

Regards,



Juan C. Ayllon

[Roberto Aqui]

And, let's not forget: from what I understand, Holmes was given roughly two weeks notice to fight Tyson.

That's not much time for an aged fighter to get ready for a prime champion, much less a fighter of a prime Tyson.

Just a myth Juan. Larry had been fielding dozens of offers to fight from the moment he first retired. Fact is he is the one who targeted Tyson, scouting out his fights, and anyone who knows Larry knows he never left the gym but to sleep and plan his next title.

Holmes just flat out got blown away because he always overinflates his own legacy and thought Tyson would be a walkover he was going to frustrate. All the champs and former champs were blown out from Spinks to Tubbs. Defenses against Scott Franks and Marvis Fraziers ain't never gonna prepare you for prime Tyson.

[kikibalt]

So, Frank, the drying out was specificaly to make weight... the avoidance of water wasn't to benefit them or because water supposedly would make you lethargic or tired. Do I understand that correctly?

Yes, you do understand correctly.

Frank

[Sharkey]

Also a myth. He lost because at 38 he couldn't win that bout. At 29 he would be hard pressed to. The answer to the why about the loss is not to be found in his other bouts. that is curious logic being used there, Roberto.. held together with opinion and generalities unprovable.

in my opinion...

which ought to be ignored if it angers.

[Sharkey]

Frank, was the Foreman camp 'thinking' common and known.. was the drying out for heavies, in your opinion, something you were aware of?