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Thread: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

  1. #181
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    History

    Counts it only 1 way for Heavyweight champs.

    And if he fights, his title is on the line.

    If we want to invalidate the Alpha groups, then Frazier MUST be considered a defense.

    If Lineage is what is the supposed end all be all, then perhaps invalidation of Title bouts occurs prior to Holmes bout with Ali.

    I've always found it funny when current writers of the Ring, want to insist that Holmes only made 19 defenses and discount Frazier. Yet they want to insist that titles can only be lost inside the ring. ANd since the RING also adopts that no heavyweight champion participates in non-title bouts and his belt is on the line whenever he fights, then Frazier MUST be a titlebout.

    I love Titlebout BTW. First played it weel before I was 20.

    Hawk

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    6'2 214lb joe louis 76" reach. # 1 ranked contender is that good enough for you?


    joe louis knocked out nino valdez in 1 round in 1950 in a exhibition
    Elmer: Here is the original statement that I wrote when this thread began oh so long ago. . .

    "I preface by saying that I am a big admirer of Rocky Marciano, so it pains me to write this. But I, like you, see him struggling against bigger men with talent. Unfortunately for us, Marciano rarely fought men who outweighed him by more than 10 or 15 pounds him and, even more rarely, big men with talent. So we have little by which to measure him. Indeed, the only fighters of note who weighed 205 pounds or more were Joe Louis (213) and Don Cockell (205). (Some of his early victim weighed more, but they are hardly noteworthy opponents).

    Like you, I believe Foreman and Lewis could have taken Rocky. (I don't consider Jeffries because he fought in an different era under decidedly different conditions - I don't like head-to-head match-ups of fighters from the early and modern eras.) I would add to your list Ali and Holmes. However, if Rocky had the dimensions of Jim Jeffries (6'2," 210 pounds, 76" reach), I would pick Rocky over those four. No one can question Rocky's determination, power and toughness. But size, I think, is the key.

    Many times the discussion about Rocky's size disadvantage turns to weight. But an additional disadvantage for Rocky would be the glaring discrepancy in reach and height with the four fighters named above. Rocky was 5'10" and had a 67" reach. Compare with Ali (6'3" 80"), Foreman (6'3-1/2" and 83"), Holmes (6'3" 81"), and Lewis (6'5" 84"). None of Rocky's title opponents had a reach of over 75", or a height greater than 6'."

    Do you take exception with this?

  3. #183
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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    What makes you believe I am referring to you in the quoted box above?

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    frank is defintley being sarcastic. hes had it in for me from the start, i dont know why frank doesnt like a kid like me, hes been all over me since i got to this forum. i happen to be a huge fan of his son too
    Some time ago, I thought I could honestly say I had seen it all on this message board. But then again, I never thought I would see anyone accuse Frank of having it in for somebody.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    I was confused before about how we got from Marciano's toughtest opponent to all this, but . . . who has claimed that Holmes' defense against Marvin Frazier was a non-title fight? I'm really confused now . . .
    Last edited by raylawpc; 04-16-2007 at 05:06 PM.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Perhaps.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Does the action after the IF in the above quoted box apply to you Stuart?

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    But then again, I never thought I would see anyone accuse Frank of having it in for somebody.
    Never had and never will.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Stuart, you have to let me think for a second..I began typing this before you posted your posts above... anyway:

    First I am confused as to how my not acknowledging your answer (not on purpose, in another thread) at once not matter to you and also indicate 'deafening silence'...when I asked why a different point I was making than before (note the words after IF in the quoted box) resulted in you reanswering that previous different question.. to which you then absolve me of needing to reply to, and then seek a reply.

    Please observe post #201 above which would indicate that within the quoted box which you at once identify with and also do not necessarily identify with, are the positions and argument one would make which IMO would require one to differentiate and thus BRING distinctions that are clear and not merely impressions which if questioned boil down to strict generalities and 'feelings'.

    In my zeal and lust to type and work at the same time, I often forget to respond to responses to me. Not wanting to play the perhaps game and have you answer for me, I have done so in this thread and the other.

  10. #190
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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Now, IF you had been pitting one against another when both are guilty of facing weak or not as strong as it could be comp, it would I think be normal for you to advance some evidence.

    I don't believe I ever said you were doing that.

    And as an aside, I asked the first question because I am not sure how one arrives at a cieling for any fighter that seemingly never faced someone very excellent.

    Meaning, I would guess Bernard Hopkins is doomed due to his comp when the ledgers roll in...and yet if he faced weak comp, how do we know how good he really was.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    I found this interesting post on the web. Although I do not agree with all of the writers facts or conclusion, some of his commetns are certainly food for thought.

    Answering the Critics
    As I cruise the Net, and especially the boxing newsgroups and BBS’s, I see a lot of debate about Rocky; Marciano vs. Ali, Who was the Hardest Puncher, Who are the Ten Best Heavyweights, etc. This page is in answer to those critics of Rocky who seem to look for excuses to take away from his stature in boxing history.

    “Rocky fought only old fighters”

    All fighters fight older fighters. Unless boxing starts separating by age as well as weight, such will always be the case.

    You fight the old ones on your way up, and if you stay too long, you fight the young ones on your way down. Rocky had three key fights against past-prime fighters which are always brought up by the critics; Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore. Why did he fight them?

    Well, he had to fight Louis, as both were seeking a title shot. Marciano did not want to fight Joe, whom he admired, and in his dressing room prior to the bout said, “This is the last guy on earth I want to fight.”

    Walcott was the champion, so that was an unavoidable fight, too. Even the critics will agree you must fight the champion unless he steps down or retires, as Rocky did. Walcott wasn’t ready to retire.

    Moore demanded and campaigned for the fight. Rocky had not sought a fight with Archie and was ready to retire. Forced into the fight by Moore, Marciano made sure nobody would doubt he won his final fight.

    Ezzard Charles was only two years older than Rocky; hardly in another age bracket.

    Roland LaStarza fought from 1947-58 and Don Cockell from 1946-55, so they were contemporaries of Marciano.

    Ages of some of the famous opponents of other greats.

    Taking the title from older men:
    You would think Marciano was the only champion who received his title shot against an older opponent, to hear some critics howl. Let’s take a little look at boxing history and see if anyone else beat up an old man to become the champion. Hmmm....

    Marciano was 9 years younger than Walcott
    But...
    Dempsey was 13 years younger than Willard
    James J. Jefferies was 12 years younger than Bob Fitzsimmons
    Louis was 12 years younger than Braddock
    Ali was 10 years younger than Liston
    Holmes was 6 years younger than Norton
    Spinks was 11 years younger than Ali
    Tyson was 14 years younger than Trevor Berbick (WBC Champion)
    Tyson was 12 years younger than James “Bonecrusher” Smith (WBA Champion)
    Jim Corbett was 8 years younger than John L. Sullivan

    So, the average age difference for these championship fights was 11 years. Rocky therefore had less of an age factor advantage than Dempsey, Jefferies, Louis, Ali, Spinks, Tyson, and Corbett.

    Non-title fights:
    Marciano was 10 years younger than Archie Moore
    But wait....
    Ali was 19 years younger than Archie Moore!!!
    Patterson was 21 years younger than Archie Moore!!!!
    Joe Louis was 9 years younger than Max Schmeling. (Max KO’d Joe and was later KO’d by him)
    Louis was 12 years younger than Jack Sharkey
    Ali was 8 years younger than Henry Cooper
    Ali was 7 years younger than Patterson

    So, if Rocky rose to the top by beating up older men, it’s apparent that so did Ali, Louis, Tyson, Patterson, and Dempsey, to name only a few.

    “Marciano fought against small heavyweights”

    Though he only weighed in the mid 180s, Rocky fought many men who were bigger, and always with longer reach.

    The heavyweights of that time weren’t the big, lumbering wind suckers of today, exhausted after a few rounds. There is little excuse for the big men of today, who would be in shape at 220, plodding into the ring scaling 260.
    In fact, only the heavyweight division tolerates such poor athletic competitors. My opinion on it is this; make them reach a weight based on a percentage of body fat. If the man is a natural 240-pound fighter, fine. But if he is a natural 220 pounder, then make him hit the gym til he hits the weight.

    Walcott ... 198 and 6 foot tall.
    Cockell ... 205 and 5’11”.
    Rex Layne ... 200 and over 6’.
    Louis ... 218 and 6’1”.
    Lee Savold ... 200 and 6’.
    Jerry Jackson ... 254.
    Pat Connolly ... 213 and 6’5”.
    Gilley Ferron ... 205.
    Johnny Shkor ... 225 and 6’5”.
    Bill Hardeman ... 207
    Artie Donato ... 202
    Eldridge Eatman ... 207
    Keene Simmons ... 201
    Bill Wilson ... 229 and 6’2”.

    Let’s take this a step in the other direction. If Rocky is to be accused of fighting few big heavyweights, he’s innocent of fighting men a lot smaller than him. That’s not the case with many of the other man often touted as being better than Marciano. Here are a few examples:
    Jack Johnson:
    Johnson at 185 VS George Gardner 155 5’ 11 1/2”
    Johnson at 210 VS Sam Langford 5’ 7 1/2” 147
    Johnson at 220 VS Tommy Burns 5’ 7” 170
    Johnson at 196 VS Fireman Jim Flynn 5’ 9 1/2” 175
    Johnson at 205 VS Philadelphia Jack O’Brien 5’ 10 1/2” 161
    Johnson at 220 Vs Stanley Ketchel 170

    Joe Louis:
    Louis 203 VS Bob Pastor 187
    Louis 199 1/2 VS Billy Conn 174 (Official. Reportedly only 168)
    Louis 200 VS John Henry Lewis 180 (In fairness to Joe, he was giving the half blind and poor health Lewis a much needed pay day out of friendship)

    Ali:
    Ali 207 VS Henry Cooper 185
    Ali 221 VS Bob Foster 180

    This is not to say these weren’t good fights, but it does show that the bigger heavies weren’t out there fighting other 220+ men all the time either.
    “Marciano never fought a hard puncher”

    This often comes up, saying he would have been knocked out by a power puncher; a Foreman or a Dempsey. First, I will admit he never fought a Foreman or a Demsey. Neither of them fought the other, either, nor did they fight a Marciano, though Foreman did fight Frazier, who was very similar to the Rock.

    Rocky had an 88% knockout percentage. Did he fight anyone who hit like him? No?

    He did fight:

    Rex Layne, a powerful puncher, who knocked out 25 of his first 36 opponents. 69%
    Harry “Kid” Mathews, with 61 KOs in 87 wins. 70%.
    Archie Moore, the man who holds the record for the most knockouts of any fighter who ever lived; 145 KOs in 199 wins. 73%.
    Walcott, 30 KOs in 50 wins, for 60%.
    Joe Louis, 49 KOs in 63 wins, 78%
    Eddie Ross 23 KOs in 26 wins at time they fought. 88%

    To compare with some other fighters:
    Holmes 71%
    Ken Norton 78%
    Ali 66%
    Liston 78%
    Ingemar Johansson 65%
    Max Baer 74%
    Max Schmeling 68%
    Dempsey 79%
    Jack Johnson 38%

    The truth is, to compare the punchers (among those whose careers are over and ready for a final analysis) there are only a few heavyweight champions to compare to Marciano in punching power. Based on knockout percentage:
    Marciano 88%
    Foreman 87%
    Frazier 84%
    James Jefferies 83%

    Therefore, in fairness, only those who fought one of these men knows what’s it’s like to face that kind of power.

    “Marciano Was Easy to Hit”

    In his time and ever since, it’s been claimed that Marciano was a wide-open target, easy to hit, and therefore wouldn’t have lasted long against the big sluggers. This is not true. There was a deceptiveness to his style, making him look easy to hit to observers, but not easy for opponents.

    Charlie Goldman (1955): “He ain’t easy to hit as they say. Rocky rolls under punches and he weaves under punches... He protects his belly by blocking punches with his elbows.”

    Roland LaStarza (fought Marciano twice) asked where Marciano had improved most between the first and second fights: “In defense. It was harder to get at him... Rocky fools you. He doesn’t take as much punishment as it seems. He looks easy to hit inside but he isn’t.”

    Keene Simmons (1951 opponent, KO’d in 8th) “He fools you. When you look at him from outside the ring he seems easy to hit but if you’re in the ring with him you find this isn’t the case. His head is bobbing and he’s crouched low, so low in fact that you can’t get a clear shot at him.”

    Joe Louis, in the dressing room after his fight with Rocky: “Marciano is a good puncher and he’s hard to hit. He has a funny style.”

    Joe Louis, to Wendell Smith of the Pittsburgh Courier: “He’s a good fighter. Better than most people realize. He’s strong and young and hard to hit.”

    Angelo Dundee (Ali’s trainer)”Rocky was a very deceiving guy. He was not that easy to hit.”

    Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore both said Marciano had proved to be much harder to hit than they had expected. And Ali, during the filming of the “computer fight” told Angelo Dundee that he was surprised at how hard it was to land his jab on Marciano.

    “His opponents weren’t of the quality other champions fought.”

    Let’s look at his opponents. Were they all bums, or just fighters unknown to today’s boxing fans, yet respected fighters in their time?

    Harry “Kid” Mathews
    At the time they met, Mathews had 78 wins 4 losses 1 draw with 57 KOs. Rocky was 41 wins with 38 KOs. Mathews had only been knocked out once, nine years before. Marciano dropped him with two left hooks in round 2! He was 29 years old and Marciano was 28.

    Roland LaStarza
    Going into their first fight, LaStarza’s record was 37-0, with 19 KOs, and Marciano’s was 25-0, with 23 KOs. LaStarza was 22 and Rocky was 26.

    Rex Layne
    When they met, Layne was 34-1-2 with 24 KOs. He was favored 9-5 to beat Marciano, who was 35-0-0 with 30 KOs. Until they met, it was believed among the boxing experts that Layne, who was much bigger than Marciano, would knock Rocky out. Layne was 23 years old, Rocky was 27.
    In the October, 1950 issue of Ring, Nat Fleischer had this to say about Layne:
    “Layne looms as the outstanding prospect west of the Mississippi. He is a hard hitter...Layne has what it takes to be developed into the next world heavyweight king. He can hit and has an abundance of courage.”
    As it turned out, his powerful punches had no affect on Marciano, with Rocky knocking him out in the 6th.

    Joe Louis
    Ok, Joe was past his prime. He was 37 to Rocky’s 27. But, he was Joe Louis. He was on a comeback and had racked up 8 victories in a row. His record stood at 56-2 with 50 KOs to Marciano’s 37-0 with 32 KOs.

    Ezzard Charles
    Simply one of the greatest, most underrated fighters of all time.
    When he met Marciano the first time, his record was 72-10 with 54 KOs to Rocky’s 45-0 with 38 knockouts. Ezzard was 32 years old and Rocky 30.
    Boxing and Wrestling, November 1954, said of their first meeting, “It was also generally agreed that no fighter in the world other than Marciano could have lasted 15 rounds against the Ezzard Charles of the night of June 17, let alone with the decision.”
    Ring magazine rated Charles the best light heavyweight of all time, putting him ahead of such greats as Archie Moore and Gene Tunney.
    How good was Charles?...he defeated Joey Maxim five times, Archie Moore three times, Charley Burley twice, Walcott twice, and Joe Louis once. That’s 13 victories against future Hall of Fame fighters. For comparison, Ali had 11 and Joe Louis 7 victories over futher HOF fighters.

    Archie Moore
    One of the greatest fighters of all time, in any weight class! Moore was 150-22 with 121 KOs to Rocky’s 48-0 with 42 KOs.
    Was he a washed up has been when Rocky fought him?...After his loss to Marciano by KO, Archie fought 49 more times, with 24 KOs and only 4 more loses!!!
    His record AFTER his fight with Marciano was something most fighters would be proud to own.

    Bobby Quinn
    Quinn was 15-1 with 14 KOs when they fought. Rocky was 3-0 with 3 KOs and no trainer or handlers other than friends from Brockton such as Allie Columbo. This was actually viewed as an easy fight for Quinn. New England promoter Sam Silverman thought he was doing his friend Jimmy O’Keefe, Quinn’s manager, a favor. “This Marchegiano kid’s got nothing. He can punch all right, but I’ve never seen a fighter as clumsy. The kid doesn’t know what he’s doing out there. Quinn won’t have no trouble with him.”
    Rocky knocked Quinn out in the third round with a short right that knocked him completely off his feet.

    Eddie Ross
    Ross was 26-0 with 23 KOs. Rocky was 4-0. Again, Rocky was looked at as an easy win for a more experienced fighter.
    Sam Silverman recalled, “Ross was classy. I figured Rocky was bound to get beat, and Ross was the kid to do it. I threw Rocky in to give this kid another win.”
    Rocky knocked Ross out in 1 minute and 3 seconds of the first round.

    Carmine Vingo
    Vingo had a 27-3 record. Rocky was 24-0. Vingo was 6’4” and came in at 187 pounds. Rocky weighed only 180 3/4 pounds. Vingo had reach, weight, and a slight edge in experience. The fight was brutal, with both landing powerful punches, but in the 6th Rocky all but destroyed Vingo, knocking him out. Sadly, Vingo was badly hurt and had to be rushed to the hospital. He survived, but never fully recovered. from the beating.

    Bernie Reynold
    Reynolds was 52-9. Rocky was 40-0. Marciano knocked him out in the third round.

    Sam Silverman, boxing promoter who provided many of Rocky’s early opponents, admitted he brought in fighters with the anticipation that they would defeat Marciano.
    “I thought Lowery was gonna lick Rocky. Rocky’s fights were all legitimate, good, hard fights. A lot of people were talking about how he was being fed setups. Marciano could have lost any number of times in his early fights.”

    What did some REAL experts think about Marciano as a fighter?

    “What’s so often forgotten is that Marciano was truly a great fighter. It was his will to win that made him unbeatable.” Archie Moore

    “I had a bad weakness I kept hid throughout my career. I didn’t like to be crowded, and Marciano always crowded his opponents. That’s why I say I could never have beaten him.” Joe Louis, May, 1990 issue of Boxing Illustrated

    “Naturally, the first thought that comes to mind would have to be Muhammad Ali. Ali is more my time. But before my time, it would have to be Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano.” Marvin Hagler when asked to name the greatest fighter of all time.

    “Just look at Rocky Marciano’s record. Nobody beat him. You can’t take that from him.” George Foreman on why he placed Marciano behind Louis as second greatest heavyweight of all time.

    “Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Rocky Marciano is second only to Louis.” Joe Frazier

    “Well, let’s face it. He never got licked. Undefeated heavyweight champion of the world. I mean, how much better can you do than that?”
    “Marciano is the most underrated heavyweight of all time. He had so much more than they ever gave him credit for. He was capable of getting those bigger, heavier guys and destroying them.” Angelo Dundee.

    “This man was one of the greatest champions ever. He refused to accept defeat. And nobody beat him.” Sonny Liston.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    I remember having a small debate with someone here on the CBZ last year (this isn't a slam at anyone -- I honestly don't recall who he was, though I think he's since been bounced) who claimed that Marciano was a "fraud" because Moore decked him. When I pointed out that Archie carried enough pop in his shots to be the all-time leader in knockouts, his response was something like, "So what? He still couldn't punch."
    If there's anything more fun than watching fights and fighters, it's arguing over them. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Archie Moores new imformation on his age had him four years younger than he said he was. That gave him about 36 to Rocks 32 or so. I know what my eyes see. Archie was a great fighter and he fought a great fight against Marciano with those small gloves....incredible actually.
    Walcott was over the hill, true. But he fought a great fight also against the Rock in Philly. Does anybody deny that?
    I dont think anybody would deny both guys had tnt in their fists.
    Charles was what he was. He was a great fighter who trained for both Marciano fights and fought his heart out. He had no excuses, much as Rocky had he lost using his inexperience to explain defeat. These were men in that ring.
    I often wonder if people understand what a great feat it was for Rocky Marciano to know he had ONE MORE ROUND to go out and get a H O F fighter who many great fighters couldnt floor much less ko, and HE DID IT!!!!!
    I guess Rocky should have had a bum of the month club and nailed all these guys and racked up 20 defenses on ABC in color. Then we could rank him properly.
    Again MY OPINION. Let them both be in their primes...(I cant believe anybody argues this point knowing Rocky, knowing what other fighters have said about him, looking at the pictures of his battered foes, knowing the man Rocky was in that ring-all action and NO TALKING) Rocky Marciano punishes Larry Holmes and creates a hell for him for fifteen rounds.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Archie Moores new imformation on his age had him four years younger than he said he was. That gave him about 36 to Rocks 32 or so. I know what my eyes see. Archie was a great fighter and he fought a great fight against Marciano with those small gloves....incredible actually.
    Walcott was over the hill, true. But he fought a great fight also against the Rock in Philly. Does anybody deny that?
    I dont think anybody would deny both guys had tnt in their fists.
    Charles was what he was. He was a great fighter who trained for both Marciano fights and fought his heart out. He had no excuses, much as Rocky had he lost using his inexperience to explain defeat. These were men in that ring.
    I often wonder if people understand what a great feat it was for Rocky Marciano to know he had ONE MORE ROUND to go out and get a H O F fighter who many great fighters couldnt floor much less ko, and HE DID IT!!!!!
    I guess Rocky should have had a bum of the month club and nailed all these guys and racked up 20 defenses on ABC in color. Then we could rank him properly.
    Again MY OPINION. Let them both be in their primes...(I cant believe anybody argues this point knowing Rocky, knowing what other fighters have said about him, looking at the pictures of his battered foes, knowing the man Rocky was in that ring-all action and NO TALKING) Rocky Marciano punishes Larry Holmes and creates a hell for him for fifteen rounds.

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    Thanks Rocky

    Knowing that we are all simply giving OPINIONS and none of us are claiming anything to be factual, I have no issues with your viewpoint.

    I don't agree with it and as previously stated, it is my OPINION, that Holmes beats Marciano in any Head to head matchup.

    We all have views on this. No one view, is necessarrily the CORRECT view.

    These ARE opinions.

    Hawk

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    Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Joe Louis turn pro in 1934, ezzard Charles in 1940, Joe Wacott in 1930 and Archie Moore in 1935, with all due respect to Marciano he didn't beat those guys when they were on top of their game, the human body can only take so much, Marciano had only been fighting pro 7-8 years when he fought those guys, he was fairly fresh as a fighter, and those old guys gave him hell, what does that say about Marciano?

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by kikibalt
    Joe Louis turn pro in 1934, ezzard Charles in 1940, Joe Wacott in 1930 and Archie Moore in 1935, with all due respect to Marciano he didn't beat those guys when they were on top of their game, the human body can only take so much, Marciano had only been fighting pro 7-8 years when he fought those guys, he was fairly fresh as a fighter, and those old guys gave him hell, what does that say about Marciano?
    - louis did not give him hell

    - moore did not give him well, marciano gave moore a horrible beating


    even if they were declined.... if moore,walcott, charles were all still great fighters when they fought rocky, then he deserves credit for beating them

    moore right before facing rocky had just beat harold johnson, clarence henry, nino valdez and bob baker. thats pretty damm good. i think moore was marcianos closest old opponent who was near his peak


    marciano went 6-0 vs joe louis, jersey joe walcott, archie moore, ezzard charles. now tell me this, how many other heavyweights in history could have gone 6-0 vs these guys even under the conditions they were in?? not many, maybe 10 heavyweights in history? maybe


    also rocky beat two very solid young dangerous white hopes 37-0 roland lastarza and 34-1 rex layne.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    - i think moore was marcianos closest old opponent who was near his peak
    Elmer!, Elmer!, Elmer!

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    i have film of moore vs richards 1940 moore vs smith 1946 moore vs bivins 1947 and plenty of film of moore in the 1950s and i tend to believe moores prime is 1947-1955

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Moore definately gave him a terrific fight. He floored and hurt him more than Walcott did. He blasted him dozens of times with great right hands (for a light heavy) . It was a great fight . To say it was not a highly competitive fight is a joke but Marciano idolizers are not realistic.

    By the way, I heard Archie was younger than Rocky.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    i have film of moore vs richards 1940 moore vs smith 1946 moore vs bivins 1947 and plenty of film of moore in the 1950s and i tend to believe moores prime is 1947-1955
    Elmer, you can believe anything you want, but I think you're wrong.

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    Frank

    I beleive I can Fly.

    I beleive I can touch the sky.

    (sound of needle being yanked from the record.)

    I also beleive that Marciano Moore was one of the most brutal give and take bouts I have ever seen at heavyweight.

    I beleive Marciano "took" better than Archie took.

    But I believe he "took" none the less.

    To not acknowledge or believe, that Archie "gave" quite a bit in that bout and to suggest it was a one sided beating........Well, did I mention that I believe I can fly?

    Hawk

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Outside of Round 2, I felt the Marciano Moore fight was pretty one sided. Sure Moore took the early rounds, but once Rocky got started in about the 4th round, He just relly put a beat down on old Archie, droping the Old Mogoose in rounds 6(2 times) round 8 and at last round 9(the slip in round 7 look like a clean knockdown, but I let that go).

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by greek1237
    on old Archie, droping the Old Mogoose in rounds 6
    OLD is the key word here.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Old but still great. He had plenty in the tank to beat Valez and other heavyweight contenders. Its not Rocky's fault that Moore was beating the contenders that NEEDED to be beat in order for the crack at the Rock's title. I sure if Lewis came back today and unify the titles in 2 years time, People will still go on with how great Lewis is.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Nah, they'd talk about he wouldn't compare with ol' so and so..like they did when he was active...about how the guys he beat must stink to lose to an old Lewis.. and how even at his best he lost to ___ and ____ who stunk.
    Last edited by Sharkey; 04-17-2007 at 03:47 PM.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by greek1237
    Old but still great. He had plenty in the tank to beat Valez and other heavyweight contenders. Its not Rocky's fault that Moore was beating the contenders that NEEDED to be beat in order for the crack at the Rock's title. I sure if Lewis came back today and unify the titles in 2 years time, People will still go on with how great Lewis is.
    Any way you spin it, Moore was still an old dude when he fought Marciano, shopworn!!.

    Btw, I don't think Lewis was a great fighter.
    Last edited by kikibalt; 04-17-2007 at 04:02 PM.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    moore and shopworn dont exist. its like comparing "Lamb" and "tunafish"

    moore was a freak of nature, he never got shopworn. i have never seen such a fighter come back from so many devastating KO losses, top 10 fighter of all time IMO. no one had the longevity or consistency moore had

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by kikibalt
    Elmer, you can believe anything you want, but I think you're wrong.

    its all a matter of opinion. i have seen film of archie in the 1940s and 1950s and i strongly feel archie was at his best in the early 1950s when he was winning wide desicions over hall of famers like harold johnson and clarence henry. the archie of 1947-55 didnt look much different too me on film in terms of reflexes, speed, legs

    i do not believe moore was at his peak when he was taking on guys like booker and burley, moore was at his best at 175lb.

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    Re: Rocky Marciano’s Toughest Opponent

    for a common example frank take a look at bernard hopkins. hopkins looked as good to me as ever when he knocked out tito trinidad at 37 years old. i believe hopkins was in his prime when he fought tito even at 37, same with moore. both incredible late bloomers.

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