Who could beat Monzon??

[ultimo]

I think Monzon may have been the top middleweight ever. He didn't look that impressive but he must have been good because his unbeaten streak.

Still, a man's got to have weaknesses.

I tried thinking about who may have had the best style to beat him. At first I thought Terry Norris but then thought no, Monzon must have been better than that to stay on top so long.

Then I thought Ray Robinson. I feel Ray would have a shot at doing it. After all, this was Sugar Ray Robinson.

How about Hagler? How about Jones? He's pretty fast you know. Great with the right lead. Could Monzon hope to beat him to the punch? This is a very big thing to keep in mind and something every boxing freak must ask himself.

Would Monzon be able to deal with him at long range? Could he stop Jones if it got to the point he needed a knockout to save his title? Would Jones be too fast on the inside?

IMO, I think Roy may be too much for him. What do you think?

[rocky111]

No one Ive seen at middle since the sixties would have beaten Carlos. A Gene Fullmer might have had the best chance, as Gene could really be aggressive when he was young. Hagler? Too small boned and unable to get inside. Hearns? No chin? Leonard? He could never jab Carlos. JOnes? Please..............Tiger? Not aggressive enough. Giardello? It would be a good fight, but again Carlos is so tall in his stance and his punches flow and flow. I dont see it in my time. Hopkins? What could he do to Carlos but eat the jab? That movement wouldnt bother Monzon who knew how to move very little and keep within his power. When you talk about Monzon you are talking about a real all time great in my mind.

[starlingstomp]

Sanderline Williams.

[gazot]

Ray Robinson, too fast with a much more varied attack and knockout proof.
Harry Greb, if he could beat Tunney, Loughran and Gibbons he would be favourite against Monzon.
Mickey Walker could pull it off, he wasn't afraid to fight heavyweights and he wouldn't blink when looking across the ring at Monzon. Fearless and fast enough to give Monzon a torrid time.
I also think Lloyd Marshal, Billy Conn, Dick tiger, Marvin Hagler and probably quite a few others could defeat Monzon at middleweight. They could also lose to him. Point being no one fighter out of this group is going to remain unbeaten if they all had to face each other.

[Sharkey]

Emile Griffith... prime version that is?

[starlingstomp]

I don't think the earlier middleweight Griffith was all that different to the one that fought Monzon.

He was a bit quicker on his feet and had better reflexes, but his punch output and offensive sharpness had declined very little imo.Post Monzon was when the rapid decline really set in.

The second fight with Monzon was very close though so maybe that extra sharpness would be enough.

[raylawpc]

A bit different spin: Carlos Monzon always struck me as the kind of fighter who would have been equally comfortable fighting in 25 rounders/finish fights with 5 oz. gloves, etc. back in the 1890s. But I think Bob Fitzsimmons could have taken him. I'm not so sure about the original Jack Dempsey, Tommy Ryan (both too small like Napoles) or even Stanley Ketchel.

[hawk5ins]

Booze and Women?

Pictures of some of the "Stylish" outfits that he and Galindez used parade around in?

An unsympathetic judge?

A Work furlough?

Hawk

[walshb]

Speedsters with chins and stamina can beat Monzon. I say a peak Robbie or even a cute slick Jones over 12. Hagler at his peak definitely has a shot becaue he was a pressure demon who could throw non stop and he had a steel chin. Monzon outwork Hagler?, I think not and Monzon was not the greatest boxer. He was not a cutie or a fast mover so Marvin wouldn't have a Ray Leonard night. Hagler's dream opponents are guys who trade with him and Monzon is this guy. Toney on his best night also has a chance, great chin, great variety of shots, busy and a fairly tricky defence with a good hard punch. All these guys on their absolute best night I think will beat Monzon.

[SageBrush]

I Assume it would be over the traditional 15 Rounds distence, which of course would be all to Carlos's Favour, over 12 rounds a few names might enter ones initial Hmmmmmm. List, but Over 15 for me, those extra 3 rounds eliminate a quite few from my thoughts...

I suspect some might favour a few "old Testament" Names like Bob Fitzimmons or Sam Langford ? was Charlie Burley that good ?....

i suppose Ray Robinson is an obvious choice...and how about Micky Walker ? - it would take someone who could resolutely retain form.

whilst I think an awful lot of Fighters on their best night could give an early rounds pedestrian Carlos an Awful lot of Trouble, From the McCullums and Toney's Evan perhaps the Tate's and Nunns of this world, - but maintaining that nuisense value over 15 Rounds is feat beyond most i suspect

and I like Hagler to Push Carlos's most of the way, but not if he brings that overly respectful attitude that he had in tow against Duran.

Who Could beat Monzon...? Maybe i'll just say - "The Taxman" - and leave it at that.

[walshb]

Well over 15 Carlos may have the advantage. But that's a little presumptuous and unfair to Toney and say Jones who through no fault of their own had to compete over 12. Had they been brought up with 15 rds in mind then it's quite possible that they could do it. They are after all ALL human. Carlos was not SUPERMAN. He was beatable. Jones would be trouble because he was so elusive, fast and had a fine punch which would get Carlos' respect. Carlos was not a vicious puncher, was a wee bit slower with hand and foot. He will find it hard to pin a peak Jones for long enough to really break him.

Toney at his best had the chin to hang with Carlos, he had a damn hard punch with decent stamina and a solid defense. Can he outwork Carlos and really lay hurt on him. Well that's a matter of opinion. I happen to think he was a tremendous puncher.

Hagler I feel outworks him and doesn't have to worry about Carlos being too elusive or fleet footed or even as fast. Same with Robbie who will be throwing too much leather throughout.

[rocky111]

Hagler let built up welters go the distance with him other than Hearns who had no chin. Monzon destroyed Napoles when he tried to move up as he should have. Hagler would never push Carlos who was a very very strong guy.

[hawk5ins]

Emile Griffith never pushed Monzon.

Hawk

[Elwill7847]

I'd rate Monzon behind Greb, Walker, Robinson...maybe Burley & La Motta beat him too. I also think Carlos would beat Hagler and Jones, as well as Hopkins and Toney at 160.

[hawk5ins]

I'd rank em:

1-Robinson (others have had better careers at this weight, but at his best at 160, I'd take him over any other Middle. Wouldn't be easy every time out, but Give me the best 160 pound version of Robinson. I think his speed and equally heavy shots are what takes the bout over Carlos. Via decision.)
2-Greb (his resume speaks for itself. He simply outworks Carlos. Greb decision.)
3-Hagler(I still think Greb Hagler is pick em. I take Marvin over Monzon, but wouldn't argue a duke for Carlos. Those that think this is a one sided bout either way are not thinking straight.)
4-Monzon(per my previsou comments, Hagler Monzon is pick em. But I think Greb beats Monzon somewhat convincngly. Albeit a distance fight.)
5-Lamotta (He'd be hell for both Hagler and Monzon. I'd take both over Jake though. Carlos COULD end up stopping Jake via tko late. Not out of the question.)
6-Jones (Monzon would beat him. It would be competitive until Jones adopts a safety first approach, whihc would be forced by Monzon's pressure and toughness. Then as frustrating as it might be for Carlos, Who wants Jones to fight, Monzon wins rather easily as he outworks Jones round after round.)

Others previously mentioned:

Walker is competitive with Monzon, but Monzon would take the decision. Stronger and a heavier hitter at Middle. No Monzon isn't Jack Sharkey. He's simply more consistant. And he'd consistantly be hitting Walker over the second half of the bout.

Dick Tiger, is as strong as Monzon and he pushes Carlos to the limit. Carlos by split duke. Tiger is shooting up my middleweight ratings the more I research and view him.

Hopkins. I think Bernard makes it very competitive. Other than speed, I give Carlos every other edge. By round 8 or 9, Monzon begins to pull away and wins a clean decision.

Giardello. I think Monzon has some issues early, but by midpoint, establishes himself as Joey's superior and pulls away to win an easy decision.

Fullmer. I think Gene takes a beating. Tough bout for about 5 or 6 rounds and then Monzon pot shots the hell out of him. I don;t think Fullmer is as strong as Tiger and IMO he's much easier to find. Carlos by TKO by around the 10th.

Hawk

[KOJOE90]

Monzon would have crushed Terry Norris. Norris was a very good fighter but didn't have the chin or physical strength to beat a great Middleweight like Monzon. Monzon was just too big and too good for the likes of Norris.

The likes of Robinson, Greb, Lamotta, Tiger, Hagler, Burley may have been able to get the better of Monzon on a given night, but on another given night Monzon my well have reversed the result.

[rocky111]

Id just like to throw in that the prime Monzon fought early in his reign when he koed both Benvenuti and Griffith. He was a playboy and although heads and shoulders above what was still fighting, he did slip a bit. Still no one beat him or could have in his era. Monzon v Robinson or Greb or the others is the stuff of legends and dreams. Carlos was every inch the champion and ranks with any of them in my mind.

[Husker]

I agree with Hawkins and Sage.

Robinson beats him because he has so, so much to work with and he'd change his plan of attack as the fight went on and find improved ways to inflict damage. Ray was a little ridiculous.

Picturing what I've read about Greb in my head is going to cause anyone trouble. Maybe if you gave Carlos a hockey stick and a McSorley jersey but I don't even think then that he hurts him and if you can't hurt him, how do you stop him from winging non-stop? Carlos wasn't exactly nimble, so as good a "boxer" as he was, this is all wrong for him.

Hagler. Like Sage said, if Marvin comes in fighting a legend and not a blown-up lightweight like he was facing in Duran, he gets steamrolled. STEAMROLLED. I also don't like Marvin's chances if he comes out like serial killer as he did against Hearns. Carlos was excellent at creating range. Attack him wildly and he's going to bust you up. While I don't believe he'd get that Marvin outta there, he'd make him change what he was doing. The Marv who crushed Minter, broke down Sibson and Hamsho, THAT's the one who can beat Carlos but that's going to come down to the wire. Great, great fight.

Jones? For all his weapons and even though he was far more aggressive at 60 & 68, he simply wouldn't be aggressive enough.

Toney would hopefully come in pissed off and it'd be great to watch but what exactly does he bring that makes him win? Imo, nothing. He could make it a great fight but he's not winning.

Hopkins? I'd rather watch an endless loop of Calzaghe-Manfredo with my eyes stapled open than to watch this. I think they're both great fighters, don't get me wrong but together I think it would be simply dreadful. Like Evander Holyfield said "Stye may fighs" and their styles don't mesh.

And how could I forget. Terry Norris kayo's Carlos even quicker than he did in Thunder Gatti's brother. Of course, that should go withoput saying.

[dnahar]

I think SRR could beat him with his speed and variety of punches, but he's the only one. I have Monzon #1 at middleweight, but style-wise I think Ray Robinson would hold his own. While Greb was hell on the inside, I can see Greb taking a lot of jabs from Monzon and truthfully, who knows how many fights Monzon trained 100% for and he still is considered by many the greatest at middleweight. A focused Monzon was not intimidated by mind games or rough in-fighting and thus I think Greb would not be able to pull out enough rounds. Hagler has less of a chance since he is a counterpuncher and Monzon's jab would be out of his activity range to counter.

Deepak

[hagler04]

I agree with Hawkins and Sage.

Robinson beats him because he has so, so much to work with and he'd change his plan of attack as the fight went on and find improved ways to inflict damage. Ray was a little ridiculous.

Picturing what I've read about Greb in my head is going to cause anyone trouble. Maybe if you gave Carlos a hockey stick and a McSorley jersey but I don't even think then that he hurts him and if you can't hurt him, how do you stop him from winging non-stop? Carlos wasn't exactly nimble, so as good a "boxer" as he was, this is all wrong for him.

Hagler. Like Sage said, if Marvin comes in fighting a legend and not a blown-up lightweight like he was facing in Duran, he gets steamrolled. STEAMROLLED. I also don't like Marvin's chances if he comes out like serial killer as he did against Hearns. Carlos was excellent at creating range. Attack him wildly and he's going to bust you up. While I don't believe he'd get that Marvin outta there, he'd make him change what he was doing. The Marv who crushed Minter, broke down Sibson and Hamsho, THAT's the one who can beat Carlos but that's going to come down to the wire. Great, great fight.

Jones? For all his weapons and even though he was far more aggressive at 60 & 68, he simply wouldn't be aggressive enough.

Toney would hopefully come in pissed off and it'd be great to watch but what exactly does he bring that makes him win? Imo, nothing. He could make it a great fight but he's not winning.

Hopkins? I'd rather watch an endless loop of Calzaghe-Manfredo with my eyes stapled open than to watch this. I think they're both great fighters, don't get me wrong but together I think it would be simply dreadful. Like Evander Holyfield said "Stye may fighs" and their styles don't mesh.

And how could I forget. Terry Norris kayo's Carlos even quicker than he did in Thunder Gatti's brother. Of course, that should go withoput saying.

Good post.

I pretty much agree. Greb . . . .I'm not sure if I favor anyone to beat Greb on his best night . . .his resume is that impressive. Robinson has too much in the toolchest.

Jones Jr style-wise does present a lot of problems for Carlos. I think it would be a very technical fight, and really it depends on who's judging that night and what they look for in regards to who wins the decision.

Toney gets outboxed and outworked. Monzon is not a good style for Toney.

Hagler . . I agree . . .50/50 fight for me. It would be a great matchup.


How about Monzon-Zale?

[hagler04]

I agree with Hawkins and Sage.

Robinson beats him because he has so, so much to work with and he'd change his plan of attack as the fight went on and find improved ways to inflict damage. Ray was a little ridiculous.

Picturing what I've read about Greb in my head is going to cause anyone trouble. Maybe if you gave Carlos a hockey stick and a McSorley jersey but I don't even think then that he hurts him and if you can't hurt him, how do you stop him from winging non-stop? Carlos wasn't exactly nimble, so as good a "boxer" as he was, this is all wrong for him.

Hagler. Like Sage said, if Marvin comes in fighting a legend and not a blown-up lightweight like he was facing in Duran, he gets steamrolled. STEAMROLLED. I also don't like Marvin's chances if he comes out like serial killer as he did against Hearns. Carlos was excellent at creating range. Attack him wildly and he's going to bust you up. While I don't believe he'd get that Marvin outta there, he'd make him change what he was doing. The Marv who crushed Minter, broke down Sibson and Hamsho, THAT's the one who can beat Carlos but that's going to come down to the wire. Great, great fight.

Jones? For all his weapons and even though he was far more aggressive at 60 & 68, he simply wouldn't be aggressive enough.

Toney would hopefully come in pissed off and it'd be great to watch but what exactly does he bring that makes him win? Imo, nothing. He could make it a great fight but he's not winning.

Hopkins? I'd rather watch an endless loop of Calzaghe-Manfredo with my eyes stapled open than to watch this. I think they're both great fighters, don't get me wrong but together I think it would be simply dreadful. Like Evander Holyfield said "Stye may fighs" and their styles don't mesh.

And how could I forget. Terry Norris kayo's Carlos even quicker than he did in Thunder Gatti's brother. Of course, that should go withoput saying.

Good post.

I pretty much agree. Greb . . . .I'm not sure if I favor anyone to beat Greb on his best night . . .his resume is that impressive. Robinson has too much in the toolchest.

Jones Jr style-wise does present a lot of problems for Carlos. I think it would be a very technical fight, and really it depends on who's judging that night and what they look for in regards to who wins the decision.

Toney gets outboxed and outworked. Monzon is not a good style for Toney.

Hagler . . I agree . . .50/50 fight for me. It would be a great matchup.


How about Monzon-Zale?

[rocky111]

Ive seen Hagler, Toney, Jones Jr. and none of these guys would beat Carlos, infact they would have hell with Rodrigo Valdes. Carlos would stand back and jab all nite long with these guys and nail them coming in, especially wide hooking Roy Jones. Zale? Carlos would outbox him as well, although Tony's style is the right idea. But it would have to be a young Tony. Ya gotta have the strong legs to get in on Carlos. Otherwise he beats any middle I ever saw in my opinion. Ray Robinson? Carlos punches staight and threw the middle and he is tall. That takes away alot of the speed Ray had. Rays gotta come in to get to Carlos and that would spell death for any middleweight I ever saw.

[Michael Frank]

I like Robinson, Hagler, and Roy Jones to beat Monzon. Don't laugh about Jones, he had incredible physical skills and power, both better than Monzon's. I wish the Monzon-lovers could point out 1-3 spectacular victories of his, I haven't seen one. All boring wins. Ray Leonard was superior to Monzon in most ways but too small. Greb, Fullmer also I could see beating Carlos. Nunn might have given him trouble due to speed/style, though was not as good a fighter as Monzon overall.

I don't know which of these guys beats Carlos but I feel quite sure he can't beat all of them. He wasn't invincible nor did he even look great to me. He just always won--which I agree is key.

[ultimo]

That's an accurate assessment Mike. Roy and Marvin seemed to have more going for them such as infighting skillz and faster. Marvin was also a smoother boxer.